Necktie Knots

[The_Edge]

Found this very easy to follow web site on how to tie a neck tie. (For those of us who don't wear them as often and need a refresher coarse every time.)

tie-a-tie.net (http://www.tie-a-tie.net)

[Halliburton]

Fellas,

Being a guy who wants to be In The Know, I'm wonderin' how to tie a Windsor Knot. I can do the regular asymetrical kinda knot I learned in middle school, but how does one knot up a classy Windsor style?

Thanks in advance.

[BellyTank]

Here you go Mr.

http://www.tie-a-tie.net/windsor.html

-BTank.

[Ken]

I almost learnt how to tie a windsor know

I remember as a cadet in the RAF on parade one day our flight seargant decided he was going to show us so he ordered the entire group to take off their ties and then went through the windsor step by step. Unfortunatly I was wearing a clip on tie at the time so just tried to keep my head low and pretend to tie it. Ironically I later got complimented by the flight seargeant for a perfect windsor knott. :)

Ken

[Feraud]

The link from bellytank is it. The Windsor makes a nice fat knot. It looks good with spread collars. It take up the extra space very nicely. There is also a half Windsor for a less full knot.

[jamespowers]

I usually tie a half windsor but I am going to add the extra wrap ont he other side and make it a full one from now on. It is really just one more step and a few seconds more. I need a bigger knot for a bigger guy. LOL
Thanks for the instruction link to remind me how to tie it correctly.

Regards to all,

J

P.S. Ken, that flight seargeant is still alive and is going to hunt you down and force you to learn. He is even meaner now with age too. LOL

[Ken]

Oh barracks!

[Andykev]

I tied on on last night....but it wasn't like that!!!!!!!!:p

[Halliburton]

Thanks for your speedy and knowledge-packed replies.

Now, where IS my Sandhurst tie....

[Gershomite]

I prefer the Shelby/Pratt knot...it is a tad narrower, yet has the symmetry of the Windsor, while leaving a bit more length in the tie.

:)

Gersh

[Baron Kurtz]

I despise that dimple that appears under the knot of a tie.
I know not why.

Whenever i tie my tie, i spend about the same amount of time removing the dimple as i do tying the knot. I figure that if i've spent the time tying, say, a nice symmetrical windsor knot, i don't want some surrogate adam's apple butting in under the knot. I think the dimple just looks plain silly. I try to get a nice smooth curve going under the knot, from the chest on one side to the chest on the other.I can almost understand the dimple if it is explained as a sort of "not contrived" feature. But that sounds like the "make the pocket hankie look uncontrived" argument, where we all know it's completely contrived.

And i see that there are machines (not really machines, pieces of moulded plastic) one can purchase that will insert the "perfect" dimple under the knot. Anyone own/use one of these? If so, why?

I'm interested to see if this is a cultural thing - for example, you hardly ever see British politicians with the dimple, almost always with American politicos (Rummy springs to mind as a prime example of the super-dimple).

Sorry if this has come up before.

bk

[Vladimir Berkov]

My tie always has a dimple. The key with tying any tie is not to make it look perfect but always slightly askew in some respect. To me a tie without a dimple looks like the big windor knots you see at the department store where they tie the ties on the shirts to display them on the table.

[WetDog]

I don't fuss over it. If there's a dimple, so what? There are more important things in life to stress about ... like if my java is brewed to the right strength. Now that's important.

Richard

[Rigby Reardon]

I dimple. Just because I think it looks better, no fashion reason. And I try to get it balanced/centered, for the same reason. I just think it looks neater.

Why, was that wrong? I just had it happen accidentally when I was first learning to tie a tie, so I started doing it intentionally. Looked better to me. That's all.

[jpdesign]

Everything I have read states that a tie is not properly tied without a dimple. It gives the tie a little extra fullness.

[3PieceSuitGuy]

Not quite sure what the fashion was in the 30's to 40's but these days a well knotted tie should definately have a dimple. In the military they try not to dimple and the best way to do this is to not pull the knot too tight.

The choice is always yours but a dimple in a tie is generally considered to be correct.

Cheers

[Twitch]

Dimples have been around at least since the 60s that I can recall. It's just a "thang."

[Quigley Brown]

Everything I have read states that a tie is not properly tied without a dimple. It gives the tie a little extra fullness.

Apparently there's plenty of men out there who go by the book. I'm glad I'm not one. I think only dandys and dandy wannabees stress over such a thing. If I have to re-tie it it's only to get the length right.

[Baron Kurtz]

Nothing wrong with dandyism. The dandy shows that he takes time over his appearance. He cares how he looks. everything should be "just so", as the saying goes. We're all dandys in our own ways (if only in terms of tie length :p).

bk

[The Wingnut]

I dimple mine due to the way I tie them, there's no way to avoid it. I use what's known as a Pratt or Shelby knot, which looks like a full Windsor, but doesn't use nearly as much material, and makes a smaller knot...this forces the tie to dimple. I like the knot small, and prefer the cleaner look of the inverted triangle between the collar points. I do fuss with getting the dimple centered, since it looks sloppy if it's off-center.

[Quigley Brown]

Nothing wrong with dandyism. The dandy shows that he takes time over his appearance. He cares how he looks. everything should be "just so", as the saying goes. We're all dandys in our own ways (if only in terms of tie length :p).

bk

There's nothing wrong with dandyism, I know. I just don't have the time to be one. Throw on shirt, tie, coat and hat and out the door......that tie length does need be right, though.;) If there's a dimple it's just by chance. I look at all those inserts in my daily paper from J.C. Pennys, Sears, and others and see all the generic male models and their perfectly dimpled ties and that's just the opposite of what I want to be.

[3PieceSuitGuy]

I use a half windsor knot that just happens to dimple when I tie it because I like a tight knot. Got nothing to do with being a wannabe. It's just a personal preference of mine to tie a half windsor because it gives a nice symmetrical tight knot. If that makes me a wannabe then so be it. To my way of thinking someone who doesn't have a dimple in his tie because he doesn't want to look like a model from a sears catalogue is a wannabe cut from a different cloth. He just wannabe something else! That's cool though, if we were all the same the world would be a boring place. From my way of thinking tie your tie any way you want. I will just be happy to see that people like to wear a tie - dimpled or not!

[Quigley Brown]

I remember this 1940s Cary Grant movie (sorry, don't know which one) where he plays a wild bachelor wearing his wild neckties with small knots...no room for a dimple. He meets a lady who wants to tame him and there's a scene where they're cruising down the road and she takes the wild tie off while he's driving and replaces it with a plain conservative one with a bigger knot...though I don't remember if it's dimpled or not. So, myself, a wild bachelor I'm allowed to wear my wild ties with small knots and no dimples. If Cary Grant can then so can I.

Anyone recall the film I'm talking about?

[The Wingnut]

I've seen that scene! Thought it was interesting...didn't have time to watch the whole movie, unfortunately.

[scotrace]

A centered dimple always. Because in the 70's, those big fat ties wouldn't dimple, and I thought they looked... like big fat ties.

[The Wingnut]

A centered dimple always. Because in the 70's, those big fat ties wouldn't dimple, and I thought they looked... like big fat ties.


Aha! That's what it reminded me of! I couldn't put a finger on why ties without them looked 'off'.

[scotrace]

Bwuahahahaha! :cheers1:

[Twitch]

The final decision to dimple or not is up to the tie, shirt and suit color combinations too. I used to not dimple some for gut feeling reasons of aesthetics. It's just not important of a detail. Some folks always used colored hankies in the breast pocket too which I thought was too much. Looks better on some guys than others.

[Flitcraft]

Dimple.
Women like it.;)

[shindeco]

Always dimple...just 'cause I like it. It also gives me something to do. I'm a terrible tie fiddler; can't keep my hands off them :rolleyes: I'm forever checking the dimple, collar pin ...

[Marc Chevalier]

Heavy duty dandies used to double dimple their tie knots.

[Flitcraft]

Double dimple?!
Dang!

[Marc Chevalier]

It ain't easy. I can only make it happen by accident.

[Rigby Reardon]

You mean an inverted dimple (out, not in) in the middle and then the two sides turned out? I've only gotten one side of that by accident when my dimple wasn't centered...hmm...never tried it intentionally!

[Marty M.]

Dimples always look good on women and neckwear.

[Flitcraft]

Amen, Brother Marty! Amen!;)

[Flitcraft]

I remember this 1940s Cary Grant movie (sorry, don't know which one) where he plays a wild bachelor wearing his wild neckties with small knots...no room for a dimple. He meets a lady who wants to tame him and there's a scene where they're cruising down the road and she takes the wild tie off while he's driving and replaces it with a plain conservative one with a bigger knot...though I don't remember if it's dimpled or not. So, myself, a wild bachelor I'm allowed to wear my wild ties with small knots and no dimples. If Cary Grant can then so can I.

Anyone recall the film I'm talking about?

Its "Mr. Lucky".
Sorry for the delay- meant to post earlier.
Kinda cute movie if you've never seen it.

[Chad Sanborn]

Vintage ties that I own are shorter. So I can't tie a full windsor, which is my knot of choice. How did people tie them back then?

Chad

[Marc Chevalier]

Usually with a four-in-hand knot.

[Hemingway Jones]

Vintage ties that I own are shorter. So I can't tie a full windsor, which is my knot of choice. How did people tie them back then?

Chad
They didn't, and you can't. Your tie would be two inches long. 4-in-hand is right. :)

[Baron Kurtz]

Depends on your height. For short-arses like me, vintage ties work fine for Windsor knots :cheers1: My grandad tied a Windsor (or something very similar) his whole tie-tying life, from the 30s onwards.

I can see how it'd be a problem for taller chaps. Maybe if you're wearing a waistcoat it wouldn't matter too much how short it ended up being.

bk

[herringbonekid]

the four-in-hand also gives you a smaller knot bulk which looks more every-day-man-in-the-street-vintage....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/herringbonekid/lange_jr_butler.jpg


fat knots are for footballers.
the windsor knot looks more formal or dressy.

[BellyTank]

You need a high waist and a t-i-n-y knot with that fat puppy!

B
T

[geo]

fat knots are for footballers

Translation: soccerers.

[BellyTank]

Translation: soccerers.

...or Fashion Victims.

B
T

[jamespowers]

Vintage ties that I own are shorter. So I can't tie a full windsor, which is my knot of choice. How did people tie them back then?

Chad

Tie a Half Windsor and you will be fine. The knot is smaller and takes up less of the tie. That is my knot of choice. :cheers1:

Regards,

J

[Big Joe]

Read the instructions:

http://www.tie-a-tie.net/fourinhand.html

Big Joe

[3PieceSuitGuy]

I agree, a half windsor looks great and if you pull the knot fairly tight then it will give you a bit more length. High waisted pants will help too!

Cheers

Peter

[matei]

You see a lot of those big footballer-type knots over here. I don't like them. Some of them are really exaggerated as well - the knot ends up being like 3 inches wide. Often guys who sport the latest in fashion from Next or Topman use them.

Said knots are usually accompanied by a fauxhawk.

I saw them only infrequently in Ireland, and never in the US.

[BellyTank]

...and We don't like it!

B
T

[scotrace]

Those big fat knots make me think of those big fat thick butt-ugly 1970's ties.

[jamespowers]

Those big fat knots make me thing of those big fat thick butt-ugly 1970's ties.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! No, not those. EWWW! :eek: :kick: :p

Regards,

J

[adamgottschalk]

Vintage ties that I own are shorter. So I can't tie a full windsor, which is my knot of choice. How did people tie them back then?

Chad
It seems important to stress that "back in the day" guys wore their ties sitting much shorter (originally, my impression is that this had to do with prevalence of 3-pc suits and waistcoats, with which the bottom of the tie isn't seen).

I got a number of vintage ties lately. All of them are "too short" really (I'm talking to get the tie to sit just touching the waistline). But if you try a few times, changing the starting position (how low is the thin side, how low is the wide side) and then trie a few different knots, you can usually get it so the front is sitting properly even if the back is way too short (hide it behind the front).

One of the 1920s ties I got was so short none of the above worked for me. It was lengthened by 6", by adding material at the very back in the middle (where the pieces of the tie are cut "on the bias"), material which will be behind the neck and so not seen. A good tailor shouldn't have any trouble, though it won't be dirt cheap ($15 for my tie). My impression is that to do it right, it's fairly labor intensive.

[Briscoeteque]

I don't know about its historical accuracy, but I love the half-windsor, it's not big and bulky, but it still has substance, and my favorite pro, the tie drapes far straighter with no sideways 'twist' that I always seem to get with the four in hand.

With it I get it so that the tip of the tie is just a half inch or so over the pants, just how I like it. Not that I unbutton my jacket standing up anyway.

[Mojave Jack]

I usually tie a half windsor, primarily because I can never get a four-in-hand to look good. It always seems to look really crooked. On those ties that are too think (read: cheap), I end up with the huge 1970s looking knots! I usually just chuck those ties and stick to silk ties.

I finally found a zebra stripe tie (ala Casablanca), but it is a bit cheap. Even though it makes a huge knot I still like it. Now all I need is a good linen suit to wear with it!

[Feraud]

I usually stick to the four in hand. Depending on the collar style and tie material, I have used Windsor and half Windsor knots. A four in hand style could look "lost" in a shirt with a spread collar. A fat knotted Windsor will take up the space nicely. Narrow collars look (and feel) better with a four in hand or half Windsor. It takes a bit of patience and practice to match the tie with the collar but is worth it.

[Pilgrim]

One thing people miss is that the knot in a tie should be proportional to the length of the collar tabs. In the 70's, collars were much longer so hlarger and longer knots looked proportional. Collar lengths have been relatively stable for some years now, but they demand a smaller knot to look tidy and dressy.

I can tie my silk ties to proportional knots easily using a full Windsor, butI have a few knit ties from Land's End that work better with other knots that have fewer layers.

And last night at Nordstrom's Rack in Broomfield, CO, I scored a couple of delightful Tommy Bahama tropical theme ties for $19.95 each. Yummy!

[BellyTank]

One thing people miss is that the knot in a tie should be proportional to the length of the collar tabs. In the 70's, collars were much longer so larger and longer knots looked proportional.

Well- in the '30s and '40s, long-point collars and small, small knots were looking good.

B
T

[Baron Kurtz]

Precis.

Wit da spread collar, da windsor knot looks good. The angles match. With the long pointed number you're loking at a 4-in-hand to get the right (correct) angles.

Windsor favoured the spread collar for a long time, thereby necessarily favouring the windsor knot to complement the angles.

bk

[scotrace]

How to get those really long, thin knots?

[Baron Kurtz]

Example pic?

Thin-ness of knot i'd say is down to lack 'o lining in tie, and minimising complexity of the knot. Length of knot would result from what part of the tie you have folded across to form the front part of the knot. I'd suggest starting with the thin end of the tie further towards the waist to maximise the width of tie that folds across the front. But then ye'll get the bib-like fat end, and a thin end extending below the fat end.

Just get the ties custom made, i guess ...

bk

[scotrace]

Of course a photo isn't coming easily to hand. But sort of like


http://mysite.verizon.net/respd8l2/valentino.jpg

[BellyTank]

http://www.tie-a-tie.net/fourinhand.html

B
T

[Solid Citizen]

Mid 1940's swing ties were massed produced & yes they were cut much shorter + have thinner liners than 2006 ties. A full Windsor knot on one of these babies
just doesn't work!

SC

[herringbonekid]

But then ye'll get the bib-like fat end, and a thin end extending below the fat end.




if you're wearing a waistcoat or sleeveless pull-over this wouldn't matter.

[Baron Kurtz]

Mid 1940's swing ties were massed produced & yes they were cut much shorter + have thinner liners than 2006 ties. A full Windsor knot on one of these babies
just doesn't work!

SC


On a 40s belly warmer?

Works fine for me.

When you say doesn't work ... do you mean gives too big a knot (the main failing of modern ties)? Or too small a knot (is this possible?)? Or the tie ends up too short?

bk

[jake_fink]

My main problem with vintage ties, twenties and thirties especially, is that I can't get one around my neck and tied without it looking more like a bow tie or a choker. The combination of short tie and the chunky, stiff material most of my 20s/30s ties are made of makes tying them a royal pain (which is a pain-royale in Holland, I think). I have better luck with ties from the later thrities, forties and fifties. They are longer and a little more supple. This may just be a problem with my tie selection.

[Baron Kurtz]

I can see the problem for people with larger circumference necks. Those 20s/30s ties are short! With a 14.5 neck, they work just fine for me.

Again, as HBK said, you'd have been wearing a waistcoat back then, so it wouldn't be that much of a problem ...

bk

[Tony in Tarzana]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/herringbonekid/lange_jr_butler.jpg

You had plenty of money in 1922.
You let other women make a fool of you.
Why don't you do right,
like some other men do?

Get out of here,
get me some money too.

You're sittin down and wonderin what it's all about.
If you ain't got no money, they will put you out.
why don't you do right,
like some other men do?

Get out of here,
get me some money too.

Now if you had prepared 20 years ago.
You wouldn't be a wanderin now from door to door.
Why don't you do right,
like some other men do?

Get out of here,
get me some money too.

Get out of here,
get me some money too.

Why don't you do right, like some other men do?



(Words & Music by Joe McCoy, 1942)

[jml90]

You could tie a
Small Knot:http://www.brooksbrothers.com/TieKnots/smallknot.tem
Cross Knot:http://www.brooksbrothers.com/TieKnots/crossknot.tem
or
Prince Albert: http://www.brooksbrothers.com/TieKnots/prince-albert.tem

[Baron Kurtz]

Prince Albert: http://www.brooksbrothers.com/TieKnots/prince-albert.tem

I don't even want to know ...

bk

[jml90]

I don't even want to know ...

bk
What?

[Cobden]

I invented my own knot; a sort of cross between a small knot and a half windsor. I'm torn between calling it "The Cobden Knot" or "A knot called Jim"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JimRad-Mac/Cobdenknot.gif

[Baron Kurtz]

What?

Sorry, a Prince Albert is a piercing through the glans of the penis.

bk

[The Wingnut]

Cobden, that's actually a common knot, it's called a Pratt or Shelby knot. I use it because I don't like the lopsided look of a 4-in-hand, but still want the symmetry of a Windsor.

[Happy Stroller]

The full Windsor knot was apparently attributed to the Duke of Windsor. Was this created during the time when he was the Prince of Wales? Excactly which Duke of Windsor are we talking about?

Also, is it true it was actually his brother the Duke of Kent who was the creator of the Windsor knot? Which Duke of Kent are we talking about?

And, is it true the real Windsor knot relates to the bow tie, not the modern long(?) tie?

[Baron Kurtz]

As i understand it, the DoW (that is, the future Edward VIII) popularised the knot - everything he wore became popular - but did not invent it. The invention has, i believe been lost in the mists of time. Certainly Edward VIIIs father was pictured with this knot., and perhaps even his grandfather.

bk

[Tomasso]

Excactly which Duke of Windsor are we talking about?


There has been only one person to carry the title of Duke of Windsor. The title was created for Edward VIII upon his abdication.

[manton]

Actually, the duke of Windsor did not wear this knot at all. He got bespoke ties, cut wide at the knot area and upper blade, and with fairly thick wool linings. He used a four-in-hand knot which tied up wider than usual because of the make of his ties.

The Windsor knot was an attempt to replicate the look of his knots with ordinary ties. If you look at photos, however, you see that his knots are too irregular and asymetrical to be "Windsor" knotted. Also, the width at the top of the front blade, just below the knot, is wider.

[Tomasso]

If you look at photos, however, you see that his knots are too irregular and asymetrical to be "Windsor" knotted.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/BE026385-1.jpg

[JamesT1]

Actually, the duke of Windsor did not wear this knot at all. He got bespoke ties, cut wide at the knot area and upper blade, and with fairly thick wool linings. He used a four-in-hand knot which tied up wider than usual because of the make of his ties.

The Windsor knot was an attempt to replicate the look of his knots with ordinary ties. If you look at photos, however, you see that his knots are too irregular and asymetrical to be "Windsor" knotted. Also, the width at the top of the front blade, just below the knot, is wider.

As usual, Manton comes through with the truth.

[jml90]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/BE026385-1.jpg
I must say that tie and jacket combo looks horrific.

[Feraud]

Yes it does. Is it the same material?

[manton]

Is it the same material?
No, the coat is a miniature houndstooth, the tie looks like a small shepherd's check. A bit too close in scale, I agree.

[Steve]

"This tie, it will not tie." He became dangerously sarcastic. "Not round my neck! Round the bed-post! Oh yes, twenty times have I made it up round the bed-post, but round my neck, no! Oh dear no! begs to be excused!"
Peter Pan, chapter two.

This Friday, I'll be the photographer for a formal dinner at my church, and to set myself apart from the waiters, I purchased a simple black tie yesterday. Being new to the art of dressing well, I was practicing tying it earlier this morning. I learned to tie a tie in half-windsor style, which used to work well, but at present I just can't seem to get it right. The knot is always off-center, or rectangular. This is the best I've been able to come up with so far, please forgive the ratty shirt, I wasn't dressed yet:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/1754/img7900vx6.jpg

I'm after a more sharply-defined triangle, but it remains elusive. I know I've seen it, but I can't seem to do it myself. Any thoughts on how to improve? Or should I simply keep it as it is so as to not look "affected" as Matt Deckard puts it?

[SinatraStyle]

I usually use a double windsor, as the single tends to look more crooked to me (just my own opinion...I know there are many here that like the single-windsor). If you are looking for a more symmetrical look, and the length of the tie can accomodate, try the double. Just my 2 cents.

[The Wingnut]

Try a Pratt / Shelby knot. Same shape as a full windsor, but much smaller.

http://www.tieguide.com/images/shelby.gif

[Baron Kurtz]

I don't see anything wrong with that knot. ^^^

The tightness of the triangle is going to be dependent upon the thickness of the fabric/lining etc. of the tie. Vintage ties give very tight, very triangular knots, depending upon which knot is tied. Alot of this is down to the lack of lining.

Are you looking for an isosceles or equilarteral triangle (i know equilateral is isosceles; by isosceles i mean a triangle with two sided equality)?

bk

[Feraud]

The tie looks fine. Keep in mind the shape of the knot is nature of the style.
A full Windsor will look more equal due to the double loop you use to tie it. A Pratt or Four in Hand will look smaller and more defined.
Material and technique will vary the tie shape too.

The perfect knot is an illusion, but a worthy quest.:)

[TaxMan1]

.......and don't forget the "dimple"...........

[The Wingnut]

Oh, we've beaten the dimple to death here. Pages upon pages in one thread alone.

[Orgetorix]

Oh, we've beaten the dimple to death here. Pages upon pages in one thread alone.

...so I'll just say this: to dimple or not is up to one's personal taste, but it does help the knot stay put and not slip down over time.

[The Wingnut]

Yep! That was pretty much the conclusion. Dimpling does require a tighter knot than is currently in fashion...but then again, we don't worry about current fashion here.

[Fletch]

The best knot for me is one that is reasonably neat, and that I don't pull at.

I'd try the Pratt. It shouldn't trouble you much.

[Baron Kurtz]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=5727

bk

[Fletch]

The perfect knot is an illusion, but a worthy quest.:)To a degree, that's true of the perfect anything.

[Matt Deckard]

They weren't substantial like you see on the stars and heads of state today. I think a lot of vintage ties get a bad rap for being made of such thin and light silk... though that is what silk is supposed to be.

Seven fold and lined to the hilt is wha you find at shops today. I like the old ones that advertised resilience to wrinkles... some had both ends made the same width and clips or even button holes to hold them down in the wind. i like the vintage because they can get caught in the wind and create a dramatic effect. The knot smaller and... well I just think they looked better.

Personal preference...

Then
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/janism57/errol281x400.jpghttp://hitchcock.tv/people/img/stewart2.jpg

Now
http://www.bondisback.ru/2/brosnan.gifhttp://www.nfib.com/docs/IO/29192/Schwarzenegger.jpg

[PADDY]

My personal preference is for the larger Windsor Knot, as named after that aficianado of fashion, Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor (yes...the 'gave up my throne for love of an American lass' fame).

The skinny knots are 'just not me.' All down to personal preference and wouldn't it be soooo boring if we 'all' looked the same!:)

[Zemke Fan]

The Matt/Paddy photo in your avatar, Chum, indicates that the more we hang out here together... the more we start to look like each other! ;)

[Tomasso]

Much has to do with proportion, best not to get carried away to either extreme.

[Feraud]

Most of my ties are vintage so I too use a smaller knot.

On a related note, I was shirt shopping yesterday and hard pressed to find shirts that did not have a large collar spread. These shirts need the Windsor stye knot.

[Flying Scotsman]

So, being a mathematician of sorts, I had to get a copy of that little book "The 85 Ways to Tie a Tie"...it finally showed up, and it was a fun read! It's all based on random walks and such, but the way they went about deriving the knots was well done.

Now my question...anybody else read this, and if so...which knots are *actually* usable?

I'd love to use all sorts of different knots with different ties and shirts and such!

[GateXC]

I received it this past Christmas and heartily agree - it is a fun read. As far as the knots go, all of the ones that they give a full or 1/2 page write-up to are well worth wearing. I particularly like the Grantchester. For an odder knot that I've taken to wearing, the variation of the Christiansen at #46 or #49 (I think) is pretty cool. Cruciform style so you can see the overlaps of the tie. Works well instead of a four-in-hand for OCBD shirts.

[Dagwood]

The book is on my “to get” list. Learning 85 knots (heck, even 10) would be most impressive. Unfortunately, I am the poster boy for how not to tie your ties. :o Of course, I do tie a mean bow tie…

[WideBrimm]

Fascinating. Yup. It will go on my "buy" list.
Here's the Wikipedia link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_85_Ways_to_Tie_a_Tie

[Jovan]

There are only two ways you need to know how to tie a necktie. Four in hand and half-Windsor. :D

*goes to the ER from being hit by many flying objects*

[Diamondback]

Actually, you only need to know one if it's been refitted for my use:

1. Connect "breakaway fitting".
2. Proceed with business of the day.

May not be "pure", but at least I know nobody's gonna choke me with my own tie...:D

[Jovan]

I'm very confused.

EDIT: Just looked at the Wiki page. While I'll probably never use all of them, it's very interesting how they came up with them all.

[chucklehead]

I've had my eye on that book.
Does it mention anything about ascots?

thanks!



So, being a mathematician of sorts, I had to get a copy of that little book "The 85 Ways to Tie a Tie"...it finally showed up, and it was a fun read! It's all based on random walks and such, but the way they went about deriving the knots was well done.

Now my question...anybody else read this, and if so...which knots are *actually* usable?

I'd love to use all sorts of different knots with different ties and shirts and such!

[dhermann1]

There are only two ways you need to know how to tie a necktie. Four in hand and half-Windsor. :D

*goes to the ER from being hit by many flying objects*

PLUS: It's cool to be able to tie a BOW TIE!
Every time I look at my 2 or 3 real bow ties hanging there, I get this tremendous little urge top do the FDR look with the bow tie, the collars sticking up and the fedora with the front flipped up. I could add the shades, as well, but not the cigaret holder.

But bow tie, learn it!

[Jovan]

Well, that's a given. I still need to get a real bow tie and be able to tie it, so I can practice what I preach about formal wear. :p

Seriously though, I am actually interested in how to tie that barrel-ish looking knot. I saw it in a picture at another forum, I can't remember where it comes from. There was an older English gentleman sitting down with a pipe, his dog(s) near him, and his tie knot was quite cylindrical as well as having no dimple. Is this just a double wrapped four in hand? I've tried, but I cannot get mine to look like it. Hopefully AlanC, Tomasso, or Manton could help me, as they are on said forum.

[GateXC]

I've had my eye on that book.
Does it mention anything about ascots?

thanks!

Nope. Nothing but regular ties.

[PenMan]

While I duck to avoid the aforementioned flying books, I really have to ask--how many use other than a four in hand or half windsor?

[Flying Scotsman]

While I duck to avoid the aforementioned flying books, I really have to ask--how many use other than a four in hand or half windsor?

Windsor (i.e., Full Windsor). But I intend to try out a few of these other knots from the book first chance I get (other than Four-in-Hand, that is).

[Will]

I will tie a Nicky once in a while. I generally like the slightly askew look of the four in hand too much to use a half windsor.

[BuddyJ]

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~tmf20/tieknots.shtml

Fink's web page lists all 85 knots and how to tie them. It also lists the ones that are the most usable or practical (around 30 of the 85). Tying alternative knots takes practices but it's quite fun!

[PenMan]

Thanks for that link, BuddyJ. Very useful.

[StanleyVanBuren]

This deserves its own thread. Copied from "show us your suits:"


And I keep saying there's no such thing as a vodka martini, but who listens to me?

Okay, so let's open this up for idiotic discussion again. And, again, I'll ask everyone to refrain from saying 'this is the best' or 'that is the worst' based on how 'he' looks in the mirror. In case you (the general 'you' out there, and not the specific) don't realize that everyone in the world is not you, and that they do not have the same body type/frame as you, and they are not as lucky as to have the same size neck as you, I should like to inform you that they don't. I know you must find this very difficult to believe since all greatness emanates from you and that the universe came into existence when you, and only you, made that long arduous trip down your mother's birth canal, but, again, I must inform you that we were indeed here, along with the universe, when that splendid event did happen. Now, I'm sorry to pull the rug out from you like that, but, I'm afraid it had to be done and I happen to come from a very long proudful line of rug-pullers - no bawdy comments please. So, if this is all understood, and you can give me a sound reason why your knot (whichever you prefer or was handed down to you by the gods before you made your grand and glorious entrance to our universe) and have that reason be free from subjectivity then I'll be happy to debate on this topic ad nauseum.


Regards,

Senator Jack


OK look, I think a starting point here will be to understand what the accepted convention(s) are on face shape and corresponding tie knot.

Then once we establish the rule, we can move on from there to decide when it is right to break the rules, and so on and so forth. Which is just a way of saying "you're wrong, but in the right way."

Then we can move on to pure personal taste, which is just a nice way of saying "you're not wrong in the right way, you're just wrong, but whatever."



NOW, it has been my understanding that size and shape of knot should play an inverse relationship to face shape. So, if you have a huge wide head, you should have a small skinny knot. And if you have a long narrow head, you should have a hefty wide knot. This is to create balance. Would anyone care to disagree that this is the general rule?

[AlanC]

My opinion probably won't be a popular one here, but I really see no need for anything beyond a four-in-hand and its variants such as the Victoria/Prince Albert.

[StanleyVanBuren]

My opinion probably won't be a popular one here, but I really see no need for anything beyond a four-in-hand and its variants such as the Victoria/Prince Albert.

No, I've actually found this to be a quite common viewpoint here. The tie knot-zis have been on me about this for weeks now.

[Feraud]

So if folks are tie knot-zis, why would anyone bother to reply?
Who wants to talk to a brick wall?


No, I've actually found this to be a quite common viewpoint here. The tie knot-zis have been on me about this for weeks now.

[Senator Jack]

Perhaps stating your height would help. As I've noted, I'm 5' 7". Mens ties, even vintage ones, are ususally what? 53" - 57". For a man of my height and neck size, a four-in-hand is usually out. If I do go with a four-in-hand then I have to tuck the slack into my shirt, and I hate having to tuck the slack into my shirt! I like both ends to come out about even and rest at the top of my buckle and the only way to do this to tie a double windsor.

Okay, why am I adamant about this? Because I hate seeing bad information passed along. Some newbie who's my height will come along and leave here thinking that he should only use a four-in-hand or he's going to have a huge knot.

NOTE: IF THE GREAT UNWASHED WILL STOP CALLING VODKA AND VERMOUTH A MARTINI, THEN I'LL AGREE TO STOP CALLING A WINDSOR A DOUBLE WINDSOR.

[Rafter]

It has been my understanding that size and shape of knot should play an inverse relationship to face shape.
So, if you have a huge wide head, you should have a small skinny knot.
And if you have a long narrow head, you should have a hefty wide knot. This is to create balance. Would anyone care to disagree that this is the general rule?

I tend to think that the opposite is true.
A wide hefty knot makes a narrow head appear longer.
And a small knot makes a wide head larger.

Another factor to take into consideration is the lining and material of the tie.
If you go with a small knot you need less bulk.

[Baron Kurtz]

knot-zis . . . that's pretty good. I like it.

I'm one for all kinds of knots. I've never met anyone for whom one knot, and one only, was the best (for example, SVB, i think you look just as good with a Windsor as with FIH - the windsor certainly doesn't look bad, as some suggest).

The only thing i've found that works for deciding the knot type is the shirt collar. Harmony in the angles created by the knot and collar is the only thing i worry about - this is why i think Prince Chas's knots look bad; the tiny FIH just doesn't harmonise with his super spread collar . . . a Windsor would work better. He looked much better in the 60s with a FIH with standard skinny semi-spread shirt collar.

bk

[Jovan]

On most men, I've seen little need for anything beyond the four in hand, Prince Albert, or half-Windsor. But I personally think smaller knots are more attractive. [huh]

Now, we aren't trying to be "tie knot-zis" to you, Stanley. What we've been trying to say -- actually just outright saying -- is that the full Windsor doesn't particularly work for your face and physique. Add to that, a female poster who weighed in on it said that it distracted one's eyes from your great smile. I think that's something worth listening to from a woman!

[Jovan]

NOTE: IF THE GREAT UNWASHED WILL STOP CALLING VODKA AND VERMOUTH A MARTINI, THEN I'LL AGREE TO STOP CALLING A WINDSOR A DOUBLE WINDSOR.
Fair enough. Ow, my ears.

[Senator Jack]

Actually, I don't know how anyone wears modern ties at all. I don't own a one. Having held them in the store, I do find them bulky. Vintage ties with double windsors do not make large knots.

[Baron Kurtz]

what is the Prince Albert knot? i only know, well, something else called Prince Albert . . .

For the record, i plump with FIH about 50%, Pratt about 25% and Windsor about 25%. This is determined by the shirt i'm wearing on any particular day.

bk

[StanleyVanBuren]

I'm one for all kinds of knots. I've never met anyone for whom one knot, and one only, was the best (for example, SVB, i think you look just as good with a Windsor as with FIH - the windsor certainly doesn't look bad, as some suggest).

Perhaps this is just another example of modern misconception about style; that there even exists a one "correct" choice of collar/knot for any one person.

I believe we have discussed before that there was a much wider range of collar styles readily available during the Golden Era than the slim variety we see in most RTW today. It stands to reason that if collars were much more abundant in variety, then the corresponding knots probably were as well.

And on the knot-zis thing -- guys, I'm joking. I don't actually feel oppressed. ;)

[Baron Kurtz]

that's okay. I was complimeting your joke. i hadn't heard 'knot-zis' before (hatzis? yes. knot-zis, no). It's pretty good.

bk

[Rafter]

I think Prince Chas's knots look bad; the tiny FIH just doesn't harmonise with his super spread collar . . . a Windsor would work better.
After all Chas is a Windsor!!
As for his 60's look. That's 40 years ago BaronKurtz. He isn't the same man he was back then. A FIH with standard skinny semi-spread shirt collar was the standard look back then for everyone.
But you do have a point regarding the collar. He shouldn't wear the "super" spreads.
Maybe if he was still married to Di, he would be making better dress decisions. Carmella isn't quite the fashion plate.

[Jovan]

Good to know. I still love that pun though.

[Mr. Rover]

Actually, the look of a thicker tie in a tightly knotted four in hand works for me. It gives it some bulk so that it can stand up a little on its own, simulating the collar bar's effect. I keep suggesting that you use a FIH with the spread collars, because I suspect alot of your modern ties are thicker and they will fill up the gap at the top of the collar collar and then flare enough to fill the collar space.
I'll agree with Baron in that Prince Charles' tie/collar combo right now doesn't work. It appears his ties don't have much lining/padding/folds in the silk, because they are too tiny for the wide spread collar. A windsor knot would suit it better considering how thin those ties appear to be.

In terms of tie knots with faces, it's case to case. My friend uses a Windsor knot and he owns that look. A smaller knot would get lost on his neck/chest. He also has a very large face, and it helps balance it out.

[StanleyVanBuren]

that's okay. I was complimeting your joke. i hadn't heard 'knot-zis' before (hatzis? yes. knot-zis, no). It's pretty good.

bk

Yeah, yeah -- I saw that you got it. Just wanted to be clear for the others. [huh]

and thank you. ;)

[Baron Kurtz]

After all Chas is a Windsor!!


Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

bk

[Jovan]

This discussion is moving at such rapid fire it's hard to get a word in. Like when you want to tell a great joke relating to the discussion but someone interrupts you. :mad:

[StanleyVanBuren]

I'll agree with Baron in that Prince Charles' tie/collar combo right now doesn't work. It appears his ties don't have much lining/padding/folds in the silk, because they are too tiny for the wide spread collar. A windsor knot would suit it better considering how thin those ties appear to be.

I'm completely with you guys on this one.

[Baron Kurtz]

This discussion is moving at such rapid fire it's hard to get a word in. Like when you want to tell a great joke relating to the discussion but someone interrupts you. :mad:

that's wat the quote function is for.

bk

[Jovan]

that's wat the quote function is for.

bk
What's the fun in that? :D

[Senator Jack]

Another reason to tie a larger knot: to pull the emblem up so it shows above the gorge (or whatever you want to call it, but I call it a gorge because that's what I always heard when I worked at a habadashery, but it may be as wrong as 'Vodka Martini' for all I know, because someone said the gorge is actually the position of the notch, and to tell you the truth, though I've been buying vintage since the late 70s when it was simply old clothes, I'm really getting sick of it all within the one and a half years since joining the lounge.)

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f367/senatorjack/DSCF0829.jpg

Regards,

Senator Jack: Color by DeLuxe

[Baron Kurtz]

that's a lovely combo, Jack. One of yours?

bk

[Senator Jack]

Thank you, BK. I just happened to be wearing it today.

[Jovan]

BLACK SHIRT!!!11

;)

[Baron Kurtz]

see, you dark haired chaps can do the very high contrast thing. Lucky beggars.

bk

[Baron Kurtz]

BLACK SHIRT!!!11

;)

looks good, don't it . . . ?

bk

[shindeco]

looks good, don't it . . . ?

bk

Sets off the tie beautifully! And a great example for his point about showing the emblem.

[Senator Jack]

The best part about that combo? These cufflinks I found out in Las Vegas. They fall right in with the tie.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f367/senatorjack/DSCF0837.jpg

[shindeco]

Those are absolutely BRILLIANT!!!!

[Jovan]

What are those made of? The subtle herringbone weave is quite nice.

[StanleyVanBuren]

The fact alone that you have a black shirt with double cuffs is of interest to me.

Not to mention those sweet cufflinks...


:offtopic:

[Senator Jack]

Unfortunately, they seem to be made of plain old plastic. I'm going to assume they were for the tourist trade.

[Feraud]

What an amazing outfit S.J.! :eusa_clap

[Orgetorix]

If you have the means and inclination to acquire an entire rotation of bespoke shirts that all have the same perfectly-suited-to-your-face collar, and if you also have a wardrobe of bespoke ties that are made just to your specifications (length, width, shape, thickness of lining) and always tie just the same, perfect knot every time, then maybe you only need one tie knot.

However, this isn't the London Lounge; I very much doubt that this describes more than one or two FL members, if that many. Most, like myself, probably have a hodgepodge of different ties that are different in length, width, shape, and thickness, and shirts with a variety of different collar styles--I wear button-downs, point collars, club collars, and spreads from very moderate to almost-cutaway wide. Given that fact, I use a variety of different knots--4IH and half-windsor most of the time, and even the occasional Windsor.

This isn't to say that some collars/knots don't look good on certain people. It is to say that no tie knot looks good on nobody, nor does any knot look good on everybody, all the time.

[AlanC]

If you have the means and inclination to acquire an entire rotation of bespoke shirts that all have the same perfectly-suited-to-your-face collar, and if you also have a wardrobe of bespoke ties that are made just to your specifications (length, width, shape, thickness of lining) and always tie just the same, perfect knot every time, then maybe you only need one tie knot.

That's why you have both the FIH and the Prince Albert. :)

[Flying Scotsman]

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~tmf20/tieknots.shtml (Lots and lots of knots.)

Why be dogmatic about "the" right knot? Or even "the right knot for _____"?

Try something different...

[Alan Eardley]

This week I achieved a sort of completion - the end of journey - in terms of my tie hobby.

As a child of the 1940s I have always been a tie wearer, but habitually I never used more than two or three knots - the 4IH for everyday and the 2 'Windsors' (which are not really Windsors) for more formal occasions.

Then, about seven years ago a mathematician colleague showed me a paper by a couple of condensed matter theorists at Cambridge University that treats ties as a mathematical topology problem [Fink, T.M.A. and Mao, Y. (2000) Tie knots, random walks and topology. Physica A, 276. Pp. 109-121].

It piqued my interest, but the notation was something of a deterrent for non-mathematicians such as myself. Then I found the book 'The 85 ways to tie a tie' [Fink and Mao (2001) Fourth Estate] that adopts a simpler notation to describe the knots. Don't worry, you don't have to read it, here's the website: http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~tmf20/tieknots.shtml.

I set out to practice and hopefully learn all 85 ways, doing one per week, when I was able. Well, this week I finally became proficient in the 85th knot, which does not have a name but is Lo Ci Lo Ci Lo Ci Lo Ri Co in the FM notation.

Now the only difficulty I have is remembering knots 1 to 84...

Alan

[Smithy]

Thanks Alan, fascinating number of knots there.

Don't know if I have the patience (or time) to learn more than the 4 "classics" I know but it is interesting to know that there are so many permutations in tying a tie.

Good luck with all 85!

[Dr Doran]

Wonderful link. The notation reminds me of Rubiks cube solving notation language I learned from a book when I was small.

[Fletch]

I can't translate the pictures easily into action, but No. 5 (Pratt/Shelby) is a useful substitute for the Windsor for those of us with short vintage ties and thick necks. It ties to a neat and compact triangle.

[Alan Eardley]

Yes, the Pratt knot is one of Fink's favourites, I think. It does look like a Windsor. You can tell from the table that it is large and symetrical.

My favourite knot is the Nicky.

I still like my 'The Snapper' clip on ties, though...

Alan

[onlyoneintown]

I have I don't know ALOT of ties but I have no clue on how to tie a tie....or how long it should be or anything how hard is it? How long did it take you guys to learn? How old were you just wondering.

[dostacos]

I have I don't know ALOT of ties but I have no clue on how to tie a tie....or how long it should be or anything how hard is it? How long did it take you guys to learn? How old were you just wondering.
you can google it and get some pictures to show you.

I tie my tie differently than almost everybody it starts out around my neck with the back facing out and when I am finished it is correct. hard to describe but I could show it to you. Are you coming by Monday? if so, I will take you to lunch and show you how I tie a tie. This is a one time only offer....unless you want to come by Saturday at around lunch time, and we can do it Saturday instead.;) There is a very good Mexican place next to my house. [parking lot of the Ralphs at Grand and Diamond Bar Blvd in Diamond Bar]

EDIT: and don't be embarrassed, you need to know how and you need to PRACTICE

Dan

[onlyoneintown]

Would you be ok with this Saturday? Is it ok if I bring my lady with me?

If not thats ok also

[Orgetorix]

Check this video out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbXzI-IAdSc

[Starius]

Nothing to be embarrassed about!
Until this year, I didn't know either. I taught myself with the help of video tutorials like these:


How to tie a windsor knot:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=M8BxLxf8KD0

How to tie a bow tie:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QjI-58KrBmM

There are a lot of these videos out there because there are a lot of people (younger folks in particular) who don't know but would like to know.

[Anthony Jordan]

Length is a vexed question as different people have different preferences. Personally I like to tie my ties so that the widest point just overlaps the waistband. Others wear theirs much shorter; I would only do the latter if the tie required it (i.e. it was a short tie), and then probably only where the tie would be worn under a waistcoat.

[LindyTap]

Don't be embarassed, my dad's almost 50 years old and he still has my mom tie his ties!

[plain old dave]

1) I learned in high school; was about the only one in my company in boot camp that could tie a tie.

2) The Double Windsor knot presents a neat, professional appearance IMHO here's a link (http://www.ehow.com/how_15994_tie-double-windsor.html)

3) When tied, cinch the tie itself so there's a slight 'dimple' or crease right below the knot

4) The point of the tie should be in the center of your belt buckle/trouser button/waistband

[Maj.Nick Danger]

No.
Just kidding. :) It's actually pretty easy, but it seems to be a dying skill in this progressively casual society. :(
Here's an informative website on the subject,......http://www.totieatie.com/fourInHand.asp

[cookie]

Learn the schoolboy "Four in Hand" first and then the Half Windsor and that will get you anywhere.

[Gideon Ashe]

I have I don't know ALOT of ties but I have no clue on how to tie a tie....or how long it should be or anything how hard is it? How long did it take you guys to learn? How old were you just wondering.


I learned to tie various knots from my father and/or older brothers. That was loooooong ago. I was most likely observing them from around the age of four or so. Same for shaving with a "cut throat" razor. Learned very early.
In the military there were slightly more ridgid different requirements.
I rarely use a tie these days, based on locale, weather and demand.
Just when attending a more formal occasion or theater. Too damned hot to hang a "fish" around my neck, if there is not a threat to my personal safety & continuance on this planet

Most of my ties I acquire from Ben Silver. I particularly like the solid ties in tones of deep color and a couple of the Regimentals that coincide with similar organizations in design and color, that I have been associated with.
Not many purchased recently, but they Ben Silver's are of the highest quality that may be found.
Pricey, but worth every cent.
They have other wardobe items as well. (male & female)

Their website has a fine and clear section on tying a neck/bow tie.

http://www.bensilver/style04/knots_home.htm

That should help.
At least I hope so.;)

[BakingInPearls]

I learned when I was about 7 years old by watching my dad when he was getting ready for work, it always amazed me so I asked how to do it and watched him. He taught me the two ways that Cookie explained earlier and needless to say I got a lot of quarters in my grade school days by tying all the boys ties for them so they didn't get in trouble.

[Undertow]

I would say, and I think most would agree, you're safe keeping the end of your tie either just above, slightly on, or just below your waistline (and I mean an overall length difference between shortest to longest of only an inch). I would stray towards just above or just on. Try not to go below the waist.

Keep in mind your height and weight when putting on your tie. If you're tall or have a large stomach, you may stick with a four-in-hand.

If you're short or have a slim neck, you could probably get away with a half-windsor.

If you're just plain small, you can manage a full windsor with no real problems.

[Scuffy]

No.
Just kidding. :) It's actually pretty easy, but it seems to be a dying skill in this progressively casual society. :(
Here's an informative website on the subject,......http://www.totieatie.com/fourInHand.asp




It really is a dying skill, or at least in these parts. My photography studio is art deco inspired and I have a coat tree towards the back that I hang my two fedoras on. Also there is a selection of three ties that I choose from when I get to work. I can't count the number of times I've had somebody spot them, like them but not have a clue as to how to tie them. A short class usually ensues and another teenie bopper (or even a parent) walks out a bit smarter and hopefully able to dress themselves a bit sharper because the "fear of the tie" is gone. ...Then again a good majority probably forget how to tie one about two steps out the door![huh]

[dostacos]

Would you be ok with this Saturday? Is it ok if I bring my lady with me?

If not thats ok also
that's fine, I will PM you my cell # and you can get turn by turn directions ;) My wife will join us for lunch too.

[dostacos]

I agree about the length of ties, those of us with ah...large necks [ok and big bellys] long ties are really better unless you have a vest. I hate it when the tie is 3" above my belt which may or may not be worse than having the front ok and the inner end barely through the knot.

Michael Douglas on Streets of San Fransisco always had both parts great and right at the belt, I think he is on the short side so he had more tie to play with, but his look is always my goal for ties

[Diamondback]

I cheat--I won't wear a tie unless it has a "breakaway fitting" installed, which also allows me to tie it once and forget it. (Ever have someone try to choke you using your own tie? I have, folks...)

They were made in the early '90s under the "Tie It Once" name, but I can't find 'em anywhere anymore. (I used to get 'em at Totes factory outlets.)

[dostacos]

I cheat--I won't wear a tie unless it has a "breakaway fitting" installed, which also allows me to tie it once and forget it. (Ever have someone try to choke you using your own tie? I have, folks...)

They were made in the early '90s under the "Tie It Once" name, but I can't find 'em anywhere anymore. (I used to get 'em at Totes factory outlets.)
I work in a children's hospital, I tried for YEARS to explain to the boss that ties in my job are a bad thing, I have equipment that safety rules say no ties, I do a job that will tear ties up, and get plaster and other nasties on them and yeah the kids have been known to grab them.

finally a co-worker broke her arm when a sleeve got caught in the machine, we reminded him that if she had been a guy and it was a tie instead of a sleeve we would be attending her FUNERAL instead of giving her 4 weeks off with pay:eek:

the industrial carrier can be your friendlol

[Edward]

I have to admit, I'm quite taken aback at the idea that there's anyone who doesn't know how to tie a regular tie... but then that might be due to cultural differences. In all state schools in the UK, uniform is required - a standard part of that (even in primary school - age 5ish through 11ish - in my day, though i think it's mostly only secondary level now) being a tie. I've been tying a tie with a four in hand knot for myself since I was about six, I think - I figured it out myself by untying it and then reversing the process, pretty much. Then as I got older, in our village collar and tie was expected-norm wear for church on a Sunday morning. Not that I think the Creator much cares what we show up in, but someitmes it's best to blend in, and even then though I wouldn't have been as keen to wear one as now, I was beginning to enjoy wearing a suit. Anyhow..... I guess for a lot of folks who don't grow up with those uniform requirements (school or social) as can happen nowadays, it's really not that big a surprise it wouldn't be a common skill. when it comes to bow ties, I'm one of the very few people I know who can actually tie one for real. for a few years originally I wore pre-tied (yeah, the thought makes my skin crawl now, lol ) as I didn't like the look of an untied bow tie (and in any case, I never remove a tie until I am in the privacy of my own home after a night out, and then only while I have a pre-bed cup of tea). I felt that a pre-tied would always be a tigher knot, so... Later on I changed my mind, and decided to do it "for real" - partly because I just felt I should, and partly because I came to appreciate the asymetric, imperfect 'organic' look of a self-tie. It took a little effort to learn how to do it, but really once you've done it a time or two it's actually no harder than to tie a four in hand. And for those few pre-bed cup of tea moments, I've also come to feel there's a certain rakish charm comes with an untied bow tie.... ;)


I tie it a little bit backwards - being left handed, I start with the fat / front side in my left hand, not my right, but it's the same end result. I did experiment with a Windsor and half Windsor, but I absolutely loathe the look of a tie with a knot the size of your fist ,so they don't really work for me. One thing that really bugs me is the length of ties nowadays. I'm not exactly tiny - 5'10", 16" collar - but I find these days I very often have to tie a four in hand with an extra loop round in order to get the tie down to a reasonable length. The only thing i loathe as much as an oversized knot is a tie that extends beyond the waistband of the trousers. It's unbelievable how many ties nowadays would hang right down to your crotch if you didn't conciously avoid it. I've actually considered having a friend shorten a whole bunch of my ties. My ideal length is a good 1-2" of clearance between tie point and belt.

[Lucky Strike]

Here's a challenge (when done right, it looks really good, I find):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/sluttstykke/Christens1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/sluttstykke/Christens3.jpg

[dostacos]

Here's a challenge (when done right, it looks really good, I find):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/sluttstykke/Christens1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/sluttstykke/Christens3.jpg
I don't have a tie in front of me, but I think that is the way I do it. I was taught by my dad the regular ways, but I worked at the Broadway dept stores in the men's dept. and there were a group of window dressers that would come into the store each season and redo all the displays. The lead dresser showed my what he did with ties in case I ever needed to snag one off a display and replace it.

his method was great, when you pull the short end out of the knot then pull the knot and it would come totally undone and not wrinkle the tie. He also would play with the finished knot and make it look like a 4 in hand, a half Windsor or a full Windsor, I am not quite that good....

[dostacos]

My wife and I met onlyoneintown and his girl friend Danielle for lunch today. Danielle was very retro and her hair was all curls and cuteness, he was more lat3 40s early 50s bowling shirt style with a straw fedora, and looked very dashing.

My wife asked how we will know them, then thought, yeah they will be the ones dressed up :D

After a very enjoyable lunch, we went out side and I showed him how to tie a tie [my way at least] and even though he may not remember, I am sure Danielle will;)

for those going to the BBQ next Saturday, they will be the cute couple:D

[Jovan]

I agree with others... learn the four in hand if you must learn one. It's all I ever use, but others with bigger necks may need a half-Windsor. The problem with a lot of modern ties is that they're too long to tie a normal FIH with and not get a whole lot of slack on either end.

[onlyoneintown]

My wife and I met onlyoneintown and his girl friend Danielle for lunch today. Danielle was very retro and her hair was all curls and cuteness, he was more lat3 40s early 50s bowling shirt style with a straw fedora, and looked very dashing.

My wife asked how we will know them, then thought, yeah they will be the ones dressed up :D

After a very enjoyable lunch, we went out side and I showed him how to tie a tie [my way at least] and even though he may not remember, I am sure Danielle will;)

for those going to the BBQ next Saturday, they will be the cute couple:D



It was very fun and thanks for teaching me how, I actually remembered! lol seeing you made me want to dress up even more you looked very SHARP nice braces by the way. I got to get myself one of those Indie hats I have a feeling that I'm going to start looking sharp as soon as I can! can't wait to see the rest of you guys on Saturday and I'm Glad I know you now dostacos I will feel very comfortable now knowing that I know somebody. Very glad and impressed that you know so much about El Salvador too :D

[dostacos]

It was very fun and thanks for teaching me how, I actually remembered! lol seeing you made me want to dress up even more you looked very SHARP nice braces by the way. I got to get myself one of those Indie hats I have a feeling that I'm going to start looking sharp as soon as I can! can't wait to see the rest of you guys on Saturday and I'm Glad I know you now dostacos I will feel very comfortable now knowing that I know somebody. Very glad and impressed that you know so much about El Salvador too :D
thank you, and we enjoyed meeting you too, it was fun. See you next week.

Dan

[EvenOdd]

I think I was 18 when I learned how to tie one. My dad showed me how, then made me repeat it myself in front of the mirror until I could consistently do it. The only way to learn is to practice.

[Jovan]

I learned to tie one in early high school when I was going through my Avril Lavigne fan phase.

...

Shut up. -_-

[Edward]

....and so we have Avril Lavinge to thank for bringing back the tie? ;)


The problem with a lot of modern ties is that they're too long to tie a normal FIH with and not get a whole lot of slack on either end.

Yes, I have exactly this problem. It putrs me in a very bad frame of mind if I find it hard to tie a tie in a way that stops it 1 1/2"- 2" above my belt buckle. I have actually been giving some cosideration to having some of my ties professionally shortened, once I figure out what works for me. I intended to find my ideal length and then as far as posasible never buy another tie longer than that again!

[gluegungeisha]

I can tie a windsor knot, a four-in-hand and even a bowtie on another person, thanks to my costuming class...but I can't tie any of the above on myself for the life of me. I don't know how you guys do it!

[Edward]

I can tie a windsor knot, a four-in-hand and even a bowtie on another person, thanks to my costuming class...but I can't tie any of the above on myself for the life of me. I don't know how you guys do it!

When i taught myself how to tie a bow tie, I did struggle with teh instructions being less than clear. Right up until I had a sudden flash of memory of Richard Stillgoe (Stillgo? Stilgoe?) on kid's TV back in the early 80s tying one, and describing it as "like tying a shoelace while you're sitting inside the shoe." Suddenly clicked after that where I was going wrong. Great explanation! :)

[scotrace]

A dimple is like a hat - don't leave the house without one. :)

[Flitcraft]

Thus endeth the Sermon!;)

[luvthatlulu]

I have my own opinion on the matter, but I thought I would see what others more knowledgeable than myself had to say about it:

http://www.boardroomties.com/how-to-tie-a-tie.html

http://www.tieguide.com/overview.htm

and from the venerable Ask Andy About Clothes, Andy Gilchrist:

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/WWW/WWW/Doctor.htm (specifically see the last sentence).

I like dimples myself but wouldn't declare them absolutes! I just agree that a tie looks well-finished with one. I'm also intrigued by the erotic symbolism that is commonly attributed to the dimple as well as the tie.

[Mark from Plano]

There is a quote from the old John Wayne movie "The Cowboys" that is appropriate here. Mr. Nightlinger (played by Roscoe Lee Browne) is applying for the job as the cook on the cattle drive and is explaining to John Wayne his recipe for apple pie as a sort of a job interview. In the explanation he discusses making cuts in the top crust: "Three," he say, "always three. One to let the air in, one to let the steam out and one because your Momma did it that way."

You dimple your tie, always, because your Daddy did it that way!

[Mid-fogey]

...it was one of those things that was "just done." I seem to remember reading that it was one of those non-verbal signals that you "got it" as opposed to the rube who didn't. It went along with the right suit, tie, shoe, etc. back before Malloy wrote "Dress for Success" and let the cat out of the bag.

[surely]

I didn't fully realize it at the time but when I was going to law school 1959-62 in NY, I was also being socialized to be a wall street lawyer. Being a rather unsophisticated kid from the midwest, I looked at how the role models (lawyers, judges, diplomats, politicians) dressed: I remember that these guys always dimpled! In those worlds, newbies are judged the oldies by such details. They figure if you have not learned that nuance you just don't belong.
And yes, there are many exceptions.

[Tomasso]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/Shoes274.jpg

[AdmiralTofu]

I can only get it on vintage ties, or at least ties with thinner material, but I'm rather fond of a "pinched" look, like the tie was just sort of pulled through the tie somewhat tightly and allowed to pinch in however it felt like -- the result is several random mini-dimples that sort of fan out from the end of the knot. I like the slightly off-kilter, not-quite-so-perfect look of it.

Kind of like the inverted dimple (another look that I really like), it usually only happens semi-accidentally, when I'm either in a hurry, or not really concerned with anything beyond getting the length right.

I'll try to get a picture tonight, when I get home from work. (I'm tieless today! :eek: lol )

-Tofu

(EDIT: it's probably not the healthiest thing I could be doing for my ties, now that I think about it. But a warm iron over a soft cotton towel at the end of the day usually helps...)

[shayona_gs]

Hi. I learnt tying my Windsor Knot and Hanover Knot online.

And this taught me a good symmetry knot. :)

You can share my learning experience here:

Windsor Knot (http://www.2tieatie.com/windsor-knot.html)
Half Windsor Knot (http://www.2tieatie.com/half-windsor.html)
Balthus Knot (http://www.2tieatie.com/balthus-knot.html)

Hope this helps you like it helped me :eusa_clap

-------------------------------------------
I believe in perfection in everything -also in what you wear.
That creates your identity. lol

[tonyb]

Pardon me if this question seems naive, but I really don't know the answer and I wish to, provided there is an answer.

Should any of the shirt material show above a "standard" tie knot? You know, that bit of the shirt where the top button is. I've seen so many presumably well- and carefully dressed people (entertainers, politicians, other celebrity types who I would think have knowledgeable people tending to their appearance) wearing ties whose knots don't completely cover that bit of shirting, and it just doesn't look quite right to me.

[bombayjack]

Interesting question, I've wondered the same thing. I feel like a slightly looser knot is a sign of the times recently -- a bit of a trend. I could be wrong, though.

[tonyb]

Sometimes I wonder if what we're seeing might be the wrong type of knot for the type of tie. You know, the fabric content and weight of the backing, etc. Perhaps some knots just won't stay in place when they're made with certain types of ties?

[cufflinkmaniac]

I usually use a half Windsor which covers the fabric on top.

[dhermann1]

I've given that a certain amount of thought also. I suspect that it's the shirt that's the culprit. When a shirt collar folds down correctly over the tie, it shouldn't show at the neck. I find that the dress shirts that I own that have stiff papery collars tend to do this. I don't like seeing a little patch of shirt collar sticking up over the knot. Kind of kills the neat appearance you're trying for.

[Bourbon Guy]

Should any of the shirt material show above a "standard" tie knot?

No.

[Wil Tam]

the shirt needs to be the right size too... when I was working @ Deutsche Bank, I would see some the probies wearing ill fitting shirts, usually too big, so the neckline would be too wide... which would make the tie worn look funny .. also the whole look didn't hang right.

half-windsor knotted ties paired with a good fitting shirt and you would look crisp, even if you rolled your sleeves up & unbuttoned the top button.

----------------
Now playing: Radiohead - (Nice Dream) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/radiohead/track/(nice+dream))
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Ethan Bentley]

I like the Cavendish know but have more recently been using the Half-Windsor. That link is very good and I have just tried that full Windsor again. It's just too thick up there with all that tie. But I think this feeling is also largely due to the large number of awful Windsor know I've seen round the necks of Bankers in the City of London - those that still wear ties.

[cufflinkmaniac]

I prefer the half Windsor or Pratt knot to the full Windsor. That said, I second the 2TieATie notion.

[pipe23]

http://www.sexytie.com/ is the online source I use, only a few knots shown but I find myself watching them over and over.

[The Wolf]

I use a Windsor knot with my modern ties to use up more of the fabric and avoid having the tie hang too low.

Sincerely,
The Wolf

[Subvet642]

I used to always use the Double (Full) Windsor knot, having learned it in boot camp oh-so-many-years-ago. Now that I am a bit "larger" than I used to be, and spending more for ties, I've begun to use the four-in-hand knot, as it stresses the tie much less than the Windsor, and reaches my belt easier. :whistling

[Macheath]

For far too long I've avoided using a four-in-hand not, even when it was probably appropriate. Perhaps it was because it is such a simple knot, and for most people, the only type of knot they ever bother to learn.

There's something about the asymmetry of it that bothered me as well, and the way it comes loose and skews off to the side when tied loosely. Maybe it's because my head is the size of Montana and I need fullness in my knots.

In any case, for one or more irrational reasons, I've thought of it as an inferior knot, and I'd like for my mind to be opened.

Let's see your smartest looking four-in-hand, be it on your Morning Dress ensemble or paired with your favorite collar bar.

[Trotsky]

Ahh, the poor neglected four-in-hand. Often a boy's first tie knot. For most of us, the only knot we will ever use. For some, passed over in favor of the knot of the moment. I have seen far more windsors and half windsors than anything on photos of sharply dressed men. (Ironically, ZZ Top never wore ties, save for the bolo).
The four-in-hand is a noble knot, and worthy of our use. Look at any picture of the soldier from the Second World War, and what knot are they wearing? The four in hand. Easy, works good with issue ties and often the only knot those fellows knew.
So, we can legitimately call the four in hand a veteran of both sides during the war. I'm wearing one right now at work, with a '70s Countess Mara tie. Nice, pleasantly thick and just right.

[Macheath]

These guys wear it well:


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/headbanger4554/malt.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/headbanger4554/cag.jpg

It was the movie The Roaring Twenties that made me question my deep-seated bias against the humble four-in-hand. I think it was Jeffrey Lynn wearing a club collar shirt with a four-in-hand knot. After seeing that, I realized that almost everyone else in that movie tied a four-in-hand, and it fits.

[skbellis]

With normal modern ties I usually use the half-windsor knot, however with my vintage ties I find it necessary to use the "Four-in-Hand" knot due to the physical shortness of these ties.

Cheers,

Scott

[Feraud]

Good point skbellis. Modern ties are so long that they require a half or full Windsor to take up some slack. Yet most modern ties are so thick that full knots tend to look huge. This is a good reason to avoid most modern ties. :)

A Lounger mentioned his preference for a Pratt/Shelby knot. I've tried it and it is a good one.
http://www.tieguide.com/images/shelby.gif

[cufflinkmaniac]

I'm a half Windsor kind of guy but I do use the FIH with thicker ties and button down collars. I also like the Pratt and Prince Albert (glorified FIH).

[Subvet642]

Good point skbellis. Modern ties are so long that they require a half or full Windsor to take up some slack. Yet most modern ties are so thick that full knots tend to look huge. This is a good reason to avoid most modern ties. :)


I'm both tall and big, so I've found that the FIH is just the thing to keep my ties from being too short. It also has the added benefit of not stressing the fabric of ties too much. It's funny, I've only just discovered the FIH, I've been using the full Windsor knot my whole life, it's the knot I learned in the Navy (in addition to the square knot for the neckerchief).

[Fletch]

My 17" neck, and taste for 30s-40s (always short!) ties and barred collars, mean I use the four almost exclusively.

I like the Pratt knot with spread collars, especially for knit ties, because there's no lining to show on the short end (with the Pratt the lining faces out).

[Tomasso]

IMO, it is much more difficult to tie an aesthetically pleasing FIH than any other type of knot; the others basically tie themselves whereas the FIH requires practice and skill to pull off effectively. The FIH's pictured above are pitiful, IMO.


This is my vision of a well executed FIH:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/Shoes507.jpg


Mind you, it requires a tie of just the right cut and thickness. That's why I always give a tie a test tie before I buy.

[Feraud]

IMO, it is much more difficult to tie an aesthetically pleasing FIH than any other type of knot; the others basically tie themselves whereas the FIH requires practice and skill to pull off effectively. The FIH's pictured above are pitiful, IMO.


Aren't Four In Hands inherently asymmetrical therefore not as (generally speaking) aesthetically pleasing as other knots?
I cannot see a major aesthetic difference in the knot you show compared to the prior pics.
They all look good in that slightly off kilter Four In Hand way. [huh]

[tonyb]

My 17" neck, and taste for 30s-40s (always short!) ties and barred collars, mean I use the four almost exclusively.

I have a real preference for vintage ties as well (it's the sort of thing a person can collect without spending a great deal of dough or taking up much space), but I've found that even with the FIH some the ties are still a tad short on me, even by the conventions of their era. So I wear 'em with a vest, usually, or with a quite-short tail.

Thing is, I'm right at six feet, which was tall by the standards of that less-well-nourished era, but not dramatically so. And my collar size (a 16 1/2 fits pretty well; a 17 will do, usually; and I can get into a 16 but it can feel like I'm dressing for my own execution) is just a skosh smaller than yours.

[carouselvic]

I used the four in hand alot in the 80's and 90's when wearing knit ties.

This tie belonged to my dad. I know he had it in the 50's for sure and it might be older. Made by Hollyvogue California Ties of crocheted rayon.
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2291/nicktie002.th.jpg (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nicktie002.jpg)http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7016/nicktie001.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nicktie001.jpg)

[Macheath]

IMO, it is much more difficult to tie an aesthetically pleasing FIH than any other type of knot; the others basically tie themselves whereas the FIH requires practice and skill to pull off effectively.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/Shoes507.jpg


I think you're right that other knots basically tie themselves. Full and half windsors could almost never be too tight, because they still look right somehow due to their inherent fullness. An overly tight FIH on the other hand, looks more like an unflattering growth than a neck accessory.

A properly tied FIH has the right fullness, and a tubular shape that goes with almost any collar, but it does have to be done with a tie of the right cut and shape.

I suppose Bogie's knot that I posted above is overly tight, but I'm partial, and I think he looks good in almost anything. I can't say I dislike Cagney's, though.

I'll post some pics of me own knots once I get my camera working.

[Lefty]

Aren't Four In Hands inherently asymmetrical therefore not as (generally speaking) aesthetically pleasing as other knots?
I cannot see a major aesthetic difference in the knot you show compared to the prior pics.
They all look good in that slightly off kilter Four In Hand way. [huh]

I disagree and think it's based on the wideness and weight of the tie. The older, thin and light ties just hang like dead fish when in a FIH. As the tie comes out of the knot, it doesn't take on a new shape, it just plumps into a tube, and the little dimple put into the ties in both photos looks forced. It's not the asymmetry, which is probably my favorite feature of the FIH, it's the lack of life.

[Talbot]

Time for a confession: I wear ties every day to work and I always tie the windsor knot because I don't know any other way.[huh]

This is tricky with vintage ties which tend to be a bit shorter than modern.

Where can I go to learn different knots?

All advice appreciated

Talbot

[Dinerman]

Time for a confession: I wear ties every day to work and I always tie the windsor knot because I don't know any other way.[huh]

This is tricky with vintage ties which tend to be a bit shorter than modern.

Where can I go to learn different knots?

All advice appreciated

Talbot

Tie Knot Tutorial by Brooks Brothers (http://www.brooksbrothers.com/tieknots/tieknots.tem)

[carouselvic]

If you google it you will find several site that will show you.

Dinerman you are too fast.

[Marc Chevalier]

It's not the asymmetry, which is probably my favorite feature of the FIH, it's the lack of life.




Which is one (and maybe the main) reason why FIHs were worn so often with collar pins. The pin pushed the knot up and out, giving "life" to it.

.

[flat-top]

Several years ago, a co-worker asked me how I got my "Danny Tanner" (Bob Saget from Full House) tie knots! I wear vintage ties, always and only done with a four-in-hand, and my co-worker wore modern Windsor knotted ties.
http://home.online.no/~sperande/images/Danny8.jpg

[J.J. Gittes]

I've always used the FIH, but now I've been trying out the Half Windsor, I like it much more. Its not so plain, In my opinion. On a random note My friend calls the Full Windsor the "Pompous F&%* knot" [huh]

[Macheath]

Which is one (and maybe the main) reason why FIHs were worn so often with collar pins. The pin pushed the knot up and out, giving "life" to it.



Yep, an FIH is pretty much necessary if you're going to wear a collar bar. I've tried it with half and full windsors, and it just ends up looking like you're smuggling a baklava around your neck.

[Marc Chevalier]

Yep, an FIH is pretty much necessary if you're going to wear a collar bar. I've tried it with half and full windsors, and it just ends up looking like you're smuggling a baklava around your neck.



Witty analogy of the day! :eusa_clap

.

["Skeet" McD]

I cannot see a major aesthetic difference in the knot you show compared to the prior pics.
They all look good in that slightly off kilter Four In Hand way. [huh]

Well, I'm another large-necked fellow who always wears a FiH...and have all my life. In the time-honored way, my father showed me; I was wearing ties everyday by my young teens, and....just always felt that the bulk of the Windsor knots didn't suit. Perhaps it would be different without such a round face.

At any rate, I see quite a difference in the ties shown: if I had to guess, i would say that the issue is where the dimple is appearing. I always strive to get it straight down the center, as in the "model" photo...on the vintage pics, it's anywhere but. I feel their pain. As another lounger has commented....not every tie will allow itself to be sculpted as desired...some will just NOT take the set you want them to; i expect the lining is largely the culprit.

["Skeet" McD]

At any rate, I see quite a difference in the ties shown: if I had to guess, i would say that the issue is where the dimple is appearing. I always strive to get it straight down the center, as in the "model" photo...on the vintage pics, it's anywhere but. I feel their pain. As another lounger has commented....not every tie will allow itself to be sculpted as desired...some will just NOT take the set you want them to; i expect the lining is largely the culprit.

The tie I wore to the Easter Vigil tonight is one of the ones that ties "just right." Here's a picture; this is the best I can do--and, as I said above...it's mostly the tie's doing:
http://gallery.me.com/finiancircle#100014/DSCF1926

[Macheath]

The tie I wore to the Easter Vigil tonight is one of the ones that ties "just right." Here's a picture; this is the best I can do--and, as I said above...it's mostly the tie's doing:
http://gallery.me.com/finiancircle#100014/DSCF1926

While I usually go out of my way to make a dimple symmetrical, I think there's nothing wrong with a dimple that's slightly off-center. If anything, I makes it appear more organic.

I suppose with the FIH, though, since it's already an asymmetrical knot, it does benefit from a centered. Knot.

That's a good looking tie there, "Skeet" McD. I like your pairing with the tab collar, too. They do for ties with collar bars do, but without so much flash, which I like.

[KILO NOVEMBER]

Where can I go to learn different knots?

All advice appreciated

Talbot
http://www.lordwhimsy.com/trifles/tutorials.html

There are 16 different knots illustrated here, and pocket square folds as well. They range from the quotidian to the recherche. The line drawing illustrations are very good. I thought the Brooks Brothers photographs were dark and lacking good contrast, which made them hard to use.

[repeatclicks]

Yeah, pretty much as the subject line says, I need to know which is the best knot to use with a 1940s tie to give it that nice short look. Im using a double windsor at the moment.

Thanks!

[billyspew]

I would imagine it would depend also on what style of collar you're intending to use with it?

[Feraud]

If you have a vintage 40s tie the total length is much shorter than today's ties.
Any knot will produce a short look. Is a Windsor not working?

[flat-top]

The Four-In Hand
http://thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=39714&highlight=knot

[dhermann1]

The four in hand.

[High Pockets]

The "Shelby" every time.

Perfect symetry and you can make small and tight, or loose and large.

The only draw-back to the Shelby is the need to "untie" it every time.

Shelby link: http://artofmanliness.com/2009/06/05/how-to-tie-a-tie/

[babs]

Ok.. learned something today. Had no idea what the knot was called but this is how I've done ties since high-school. Just by trail and error and a couple reasons.. I always went for a fairly skinny knot to try to accentuate the body of the tie rather than a skinny tie (as most were in the 80's), and being long-waisted and 17 1/2" now 18 1/5" neck, I ran out of tie with knots that required more length to tie.

Been tying the FIH so long, it's 2nd nature and I doubt I could even tie a different knot.. If I did, it'd just be strange.

[HodgePodge]

Yep, an FIH is pretty much necessary if you're going to wear a collar bar. I've tried it with half and full windsors, and it just ends up looking like you're smuggling a baklava around your neck.

*scratches head* Smuggling Baklava? With or without chopped pistachios?

[dhermann1]

I was just looking at this picture on Shorpy.com, and was struck by the term "Four in hand". Now we know it as a neck tie knot, but how does the term translate into a knot? In this, we see a four in hand coach, meaning four horses' traces held in one hand. Logical! It must be that the knot came somehow from the knots worn by coach drivers. Can any resident historian confirm this?
http://www.shorpy.com/node/6813?size=_original

[HodgePodge]

It must be that the knot came somehow from the knots worn by coach drivers. Can any resident historian confirm this?
http://www.shorpy.com/node/6813?size=_original

I'm no historian, but...

Wikipedia states:
"... the most likely etymology is that members of the Four-in-Hand Club in London began to wear the neckwear, making it fashionable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_in_hand

[benstephens]

It is the only knot I wear when wearing vintage clothing. I believe it is the most understated and elegant of all knots, especially with a tie pin. When wearing narrow collars, it does not shout 'look at me', it is just there, neat, and performing it's job.

I have tried many other knots, but always revert back to it.

Kindest Regards

Ben

[dhermann1]

This link has a little more on the subject. Seems the Four-in-Hand Club were enthusiasts of driving four horse, or four in hand, carriages. They apparently enforced their dress code strcitly, which must have included something similar to what we call the four-in-hand knot.
Faskinatin'
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~awoodley/regency/club.html

[Ethan Bentley]

The four in hand.

I agree. I'm going to try the Shelby though.