Early War Birds or Late War Birds?

[MDFrench]

Hey all,

I was pondering this today and realized that all of my favorite planes from World War II are "early birds."

Specifically, I have always been fascinated with the Spitfire MK I & MK II, the P-40 Kittyhawk, and the B-17F.

The three fighters were of course, the mainstays of the British and U.S. air forces in the early years of the war. And the B-17F, while a late model B-17, was the early mainstay in the European Theatre before the Chin-gunned "G" took center stage.

I guess there is something just mystical about the odds these planes faced early on. The B-17F faced ugly odds in the early days of the daylight bombing campaign, the Spitfires I don't even have to explain, and the P-40 of course was the plane that comprised the AVG Flying Tigers. Maybe I just like the underdog, but I think there is something almost futuristic about the later model fighters.

Don't get me wrong - the P-51 and the P-38 are great looking planes, but there is just something "progressive" about them that lacks the early aesthetic charm of the early birds.

Does anybody understand what I am talking about, or am I crazy?

[Marlowe]

Well, actually the P-38 was in service at the "beginning" of the war. (I.e., when America entered the war.)

(Oh, and yes, you're crazy, 'cause I understand what you're talking about. Although, I like the Mustang, the Corsair, etc. Never really took a shine to the Superfortress, though...)

[Wild Root]

Me, I love the early planes of WWII. The B-17F is my favorite model of the Fortress. I also like the C and D models. The B-17E was the first model that featured the larger rudder and tail gun.

My favorite model of the P-40 is the P-40B and C. I also love the early models of the P-51! The P-47 Thunderbolt is a sweet bird as well! Any one like the B-26? That one looks sweet too!

Ok, now how about the B-10? You boys know of this one?

Here are some photos to enjoy.

Root.

[Wild Root]

Martin B-26

[Wild Root]

Here's a B-17C model that the UK used in the early part of the war.

[Wild Root]

I really like these early models in their unpainted AAF look. Super!
This is a D model.

[Wild Root]

Here is the lady that started it all! The YB-17! She's so sweet!

[MDFrench]

What's really depressing about those photos is that the early B-17s don't even exist anymore. The only one left is the B-17D, Swoose, and she's in pathetic shape in the Smithsonian's storage facility. It is unlikely she will ever be restored.

If I had a billion dollars, I would start a vintage aviation business and replicate vintage warbirds in 1:1 scale with new alloy and engine technology and make these to order for discerning buyers.

It's a pipe dream, but I already know of a man who is making 8 1:1 scale P-40 Warhawk flyable replicas for a few million a piece. All of them have already been sold and they aren't even finished.

Mike

[Wild Root]

Yeah, that B-17D the Smithsonian's got is really something they should restore! It's really sad that the early ones are all gone!

Reproducing a WWII plane is quite an idea. It's something that I wanted to do for a long time but lack the means and knowledge.
If Cash was no object, then I would have them all built like the originals. I would do all models that any one wanted. It would be so cool to see an YB-17 fling around today!

Hey, have you heard the bad news? Yeah, a few days ago, I saw on the news that there was a crash at an air show in Downy California! I saw the footage and it was a rare plane! An early 1930's Ford Try-motor! Like you see in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom! I saw that thing crash in to the parking lot. I would see that plane fly over my house from time to time and she was a real gem! Early 30's passenger planes are really rare as well. It's a crying shame:cry: Hopefully the crash wasn’t a total loss. Hope they plan to rebuild her. My uncle crashed his WWII Stearman on a landing and he rebuilt it. Took some time though.

Here are some more photos for your enjoyment.

Root.

[MikeyB17]

I see what you chaps mean. the F-model is my favourite B-17 as well, it just seems a bit more elegant than the G. I agree also that the B-26 is a beautiful aircraft, love that cigar-shaped fuselage. I'm also with you on the early P-47's and P-51's-the teardrop canopy may have given better visibilty but I think the old 'razorback' style looks better. Particular favourites of mine are the P-39-apparently lovely to fly and lovely to look at too-and the Corsair-not to everyone's taste but a real big brute of an aircraft. Another favourite of mine is the A-(later B-) 26 Invader-OK, a later war aircraft I know, but I still like it. I was glad to see awhile back that they're getting an F-model B-17 back into the air up in Seattle-I'll have a look later and see what the latest is-or perhaps you lads can tell me!

[Wild Root]

The A-26 never did become a B-26. Two different aircraft as far as I know. Any one here an A-20 Havoc fan? That’s a swell looking plane as well.

I believe that there is a B-17F that’s flying around dressed in the exact markings of the Memphis Belle.

The B-17G to me is still a grate plane. The early G still had the same tail gunner windows as the F model. But, the later G’s started to look very modern

I am a big fan of the Vought Corsair! Love that Gull wing. That plane came in early in the war as well! As for the Bell P-39, that is a very unique plane. The engine was right behind the pilot and the drive shaft was right between the pilot’s legs. A very hard plane to work on, it was a plane that had a car door styled way of entry and exit. First of its type.

An all time fave of mine is the B-25! B-C-D-H-J models!

Happy landings!

Root.

[MDFrench]

Actually,

That Memphis Belle flying replica is a G with the chin guns removed.

Remind me sometime to tell you guys about my family's close, close connection with the actual Memphis Belle on both sides of the water.

Mike

[up196]

Originally posted by Wild Root
The A-26 never did become a B-26. Two different aircraft as far as I know.


The B-26 "Marauder" (bomber), as pictured above, was built by Martin. The A-26 "Invader" (attack) was a Douglas product, very similar in layout and appearence to the A-20, which it was intended to replace.

Early on, the Marauder gained a reputation of being difficult to keep in the air, due to its designed high wing loading coupled with crews inexperienced with the type. The problem was corrected by changes in training and design.

Following WWII, the Marauders were retired. Their role in the service was taken over by the Douglas Invader, which was subsequently re-designated as the B-26.

[Wild Root]

Memphis Belle.

Well, it was funny one day I was looking on the net and I saw a photo that looked like a real F model that was painted up exactly like the real belle! She had the correct cheek guns and she had all the correct markings! Look like a carbon copy! But, I can’t seem to find it any where! But, I found the B-17G that played in the movie. They really have done some good work on her. The nose art is correct finally and looks like they are getting it to look really period. If some of you gents don’t know, the real Memphis Belle is on display in Memphis Tenancy! I’ll post some photos of it and you can make a comparison with the real and the look a like.

Didn’t know that after the war the A-26 was renamed to be a B-26. That’s funny that they would do that. I know for years the A-26’s have been used as fire bombers as well with C-47’s. The only reason why we have what we have today is because of fires! They saw service with the fire departments over the US in the 60’s and were sold off in the 70’s when WWII planes started to be collectable. There is a veteran B-17G at March Field here in California that at one time after the war was used by a farmer as a cattle crap hauler. There was a large door cut into the left waist gun for loading crap! It was used for years then sold off. The March Field museum got it and restored it to WWII combat condition! It’s flyable and sure was fun going in side her and looking around all by my self! More on that later he he he.

Keep’em flying!

Root.

[Wild Root]

Here she is, the real Belle!

[Wild Root]

Here's another shot.

[up196]

The A-26B originally had a solid nose with 8 forward firing guns for ground attack. The A-26C had a glassed nose for use as a light bomber. The name change occurred about 1948, when the Air Force did away with the "A-" designation, thus making them the B-26B and B-26C, respectively.

The Louisiana Air National Guard flew them, and they have one on display at Jackson Barracks along with the nose of a second showing both the 26B and C types. I'll try to get over there this week and take some pictures . . . Tom

[PrettyBigGuy]

Originally posted by up196
The A-26B originally had a solid nose with 8 forward firing guns for ground attack. The A-26C had a glassed nose for use as a light bomber. The name change occurred about 1948, when the Air Force did away with the "A-" designation, thus making them the B-26B and B-26C, respectively.


I've preferred the Invader to the Marauder. A good movie that features these planes is the 1989 Spielberg film Always with Richard Dreyfuss. The Invaders are used to fight forest fires instead of dropping bombs, but the film does have some cool scenes. A PBY Catalina is even featured!

Love the F4U-1 Corsair, the P-38 Lightening, and the P-40 Tigershark. If I had to pick a favorite though, I'd have to say the P-47 Thunderbolt with the "razorback" canopy is it. I may have mentioned this on this site before, but the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the P-51 "tank busters":rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
arrive to save the day always aggrevates me. Didn't spielberg give those planes enough of a nod in Empire of the Sun ? Why not give the Jug the spotlight and show it performing the role it was built for?

[Wild Root]

‘Always’ was a good film! I liked it very much. It was a remake of the 1942 Film A Guy Named Joe. The PBY was a nice touch to the film seeing that I love that plane as well! How cool would it be to have a PBY Catalina! I love flying boats.

The A-26 had 8 50's mounted in the nose in the first model is much like the B-25J's. The B-25J came with two different noses. My self, I like the Martin B-26 in the way of looks and design. Looks more like a WWII bomber. They sent the B-25J hard nose with the 8 50's to most Pacific theaters for strafing ships and small island air fields. Any one know much about the B-25H? This had a 75mm cannon that was mounted in the nose just under the pilot's seat! A crew member would have to crawl under the cockpit to get to this single fire cannon. A crew member once said that when that cannon was fired, he would swear that the plane flew backwards for a second!

Root.

[up196]

Consolidated had a plant in New Orleans where Franklin Avenue meets Lake Ponchartrain. It was a giant affair of hangers that in later years was the American Standars Plumbing plant before it was destroyed in a fire. Funny thing was, there was no airstrip. They just taxied the Catalinas across Lakeshore Drive, down a ramp cut into the seawall and away they'd go!

Here's the inside of the plant sometime in 1944.

[up196]

1944

[MikeyB17]

Root, the B-25H was a pretty impressive aircraft, all right. Apart from the 75mm cannon it carried 14 50 cal's and could also carry a torpedo or 3200 pounds of bombs! They built 1000 of them at the Inglewood plant. Apparently the 75mm was not a great success, it was innaccurate with a slow rate of fire and the guys loading them were pretty hard of hearing before too long!
I was lucky enough to see a PBY Catalina flying at RAF St.Mawgan near me a few years ago. One that I'd love to see fly is a Short Sunderland, a mighty aircraft if ever there was one. I've been inside the one at the RAF museum at Hendon (huge!), but I believe there are only a couple left flying and neither is in the UK. The Royal Australian Air force used to operate them at RAF Mountbatten, Plymouth, which is not too far from me.

[Wild Root]

Hello MikeB-17! The B-25 just was a swell plane! I’m aware of the many capabilities that plane had other then the 75mm. It was a nice idea, but wasn’t very accurate as you pointed out. As the B-25 progressed, more guns were added! It was an impressive plane and still is today to see them still in the air!

The PBY I believe there are a few that remain flying today. Not sure on the current number, but I know there are a good hand full. There are only a few that are restored to WWII condition though. I’ll look into it and get back on that one.

These planes are such fun to see and to hear! Nothing like the sound of a B-17 flying over my house! Rattles the windows!

Take care all,

Root.

[MikeyB17]

B-25's-always for me associated with Catch-22, one of my favourite films, especially that opening sequence when they're all taking off. Also that film has some of the nicest A-2 jackets of any film, IMHO.

[up196]

A Fiesler Storch:

[Wild Root]

Yes, that is a bird of a different flock! Germen aircraft of the war had such different designs then those made by the Allies and other Axis powers.

Thanks for sharing!

Root.

This is a German plane that I like. Junker's have had some really unique designs. This is a Ju 52 that I love.

[Wild Root]

Now a war time photo of a Junker's Ju 52.

[up196]

Originally posted by up196
. . . they have one on display at Jackson Barracks along with the nose of a second showing both the 26B and C types. I'll try to get over there this week and take some pictures . . . I finally got over there Monday. Unfortunately, the display is on an active military installation and they no longer allow visitors to take photos on the base. I guess now my license plate is on the HSA watch list. Oh well . . .

[Grit]

?¢‚ǨÀúAlways?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ was a good film! I liked it very much. It was a remake of the 1942 Film A Guy Named Joe. The PBY was a nice touch to the film seeing that I love that plane as well! How cool would it be to have a PBY Catalina! I love flying boats.

The A-26 had 8 50's mounted in the nose in the first model is much like the B-25J's. The B-25J came with two different noses. My self, I like the Martin B-26 in the way of looks and design. Looks more like a WWII bomber. They sent the B-25J hard nose with the 8 50's to most Pacific theaters for strafing ships and small island air fields. Any one know much about the B-25H? This had a 75mm cannon that was mounted in the nose just under the pilot's seat! A crew member would have to crawl under the cockpit to get to this single fire cannon. A crew member once said that when that cannon was fired, he would swear that the plane flew backwards for a second!

Root.

The New England Air Museum has a B-25H, when I saw it years ago they had one of the 75mm guns displayed alongside so you could see how far into the fuselage it went. The gun was loaded by the navigator, who now occupied the right seat in the cockpit since the B-25H was designed as a single-pilot aircraft and didn't have a co-pilot. The top turrent was also moved forward, since the navigator now sat up front instead of behind the cockpit. See it here: http://www.neam.org/inventory/airprofile.asp?ID=86

I seem to remember reading at the museum that the idea came from a crew stationed in Africa who performed a "field modification" (man, I love that term) as sort of a lark, and liked the results. Apparently they'd line up the target with the .50s, then pull the trigger on the big gun--BOOM! I also seem to recall reading that the cannon was the largest gun ever mounted in an aircraft, but I'm not sure if that was to-date or still a true. In any event, that's a BIG round.

Worked on shipping, too.

I'm not much into helicopters, but if you are the New England Air Museum is definitely worth a visit (Sikorsky is based nearby, and seems to have donated heavily).

[Fletch]

Among the endless wealth of historical goodies the Library of Congress has put online at their site http://memory.loc.gov is a 66-photo shoot taken in early 1942 of the original squadron of YB-17s (http://tinyurl.com/ympqax) based at Langley Field, Virginia.

These were the first dozen Forts taken by the AAC in 1937, the stars of many a newsreel and PR demo in the peaceful prewar years. In truth they were the only truly up-to-date fighting planes we had then in a very small and tight-budget military.

Interestingly enough, the YB-17s here are in olive drab paint, as were all active duty Army planes at the time, although they would never see action and would soon be sent to training schools and eventually the scrap heap.

YB-17 photo gallery, 1942 (http://tinyurl.com/ympqax)

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8b02000/8b02800/8b02891r.jpg

About the "Y" in YB-17: This stood for a trial procurement, the next step after "X", experimental.
No "XB-17" was ever on the roster, as the prototype crashed and burned in 1935 before the Army approved the project.

[Fletch]

The LOC has made the links to search results time-sensitive, as they would prefer people didn't link to them.

But you can go to http://memory.loc.gov and type such phrases as yb-17 or langley field into the search window to see the shoot.

Put in just b-17 and you'll get hundreds of hits for B-17Fs on the assembly line at Boeing!

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8b05000/8b05300/8b05342r.jpg

[GreyWolf]

Oddly enough the UK publication Aeroplane has an editorial in their Feb 07 edition bemoaning the lack of preserved aircraft from the late 30s and early 40s. They note only 2 Stukas preserved, one in quite poor condition in Chicago and one in London, mocked up to look like a dive bomber though actually a tank buster varient, plus the lack of Lockheed Hudsons and Bristol Blenheims to mention but a few. No AW Whitleys surviving, no Manchesters, Stirlings, the only Hampdens 2 recovered wrecks and until recently no intact Halifax! Plenty of others too from other nations. We need more!!

[Fletch]

Some warbird forum had a discussion along those lines. It actually involved the famous Swoose, the last shark-tailed B-17 left. (The Smithsonian has it but has no plans to ever exhibit it.)

The guys were speculating what it would cost to rebuild a partial Fort hulk into a prewar model. $2 million perhaps, and even then it might not fly.

Then someone commented that no one would recognize the early variant as a Fort anyway, and that its lousy combat record was another good reason not to revive its memory. :(

[Twitch]

Interesting thread you dug up here. Those early planes were the mainstay of air combat until new and improved models came along. Pilots learned to use the strengths of their aircraft, avoid fights that exposed their weaknesses and exploited the enemy's planes weaknesses. That in a nutshell was the formula to success in the early days.

[Fletch]

I guess our hands were tied during the '30s because we didn't spy on other nations – and didn't even guard against espionage on our own soil.

Another problem – despite the '20s and '30s being the air age – was that military aviation was actually in no little disrepute. It was considered career suicide for any air officer to speak up or agitate about strategy or wars to come. Billy Mitchell had gotten himself drummed right out of the service for doing so in 1925, and the ground Army and surface Navy dug in their heels even deeper afterwards: the only proper role for aviation was support. It took Nazi Germany to set a new example.

[dhermann1]

I've always liked some of the really hokey old British designs, like the Gloster Gladiator and the Fairey Swordfish. The French had some absolutely appalling designs in the late 30's. Also, how about the Bewster Buffalo, and my favorite carrier plane, the Douglas Dauntless, the plane that won the Battle of Midway. There's a website called Luftwaffe 1946 that has astounding images of German designs that were in various stages of development at the end of the war.
I've always the the P-61 Black Widow was a really cool machine. And of course, the magnificent DeHavilland Mosquito! (Must see film: 633 Squadron, with Cliff Robertson, but really starring the airplanes!)

[WH1]

I've always liked some of the really hokey old British designs, like the Gloster Gladiator and the Fairey Swordfish. The French had some absolutely appalling designs in the late 30's. Also, how about the Bewster Buffalo, and my favorite carrier plane, the Douglas Dauntless, the plane that won the Battle of Midway. There's a website called Luftwaffe 1946 that has astounding images of German designs that were in various stages of development at the end of the war.
I've always the the P-61 Black Widow was a really cool machine. And of course, the magnificent DeHavilland Mosquito! (Must see film: 633 Squadron, with Cliff Robertson, but really starring the airplanes!)


Must be a Marine thing because you just listed almost all of the planes I was thinking of while reading this thread. I was also thinking of the Black Widow and the Mosquito. The other also a brit plane is the Hawker Hurricane the work horse of the battle of britain. The one I would love to own is the F4F wildcat in Cactus Airforce markings. Those Marine pilots on Guadalcanal did amazing things with that bird against the Zero.

[rongoms]

(snip) It would be so cool to see an YB-17 fling around today!

Root.

You know, i get to see a X(Y)B-17 flying around every day. My Lovely Wife (tm) is a former trademark and copyright attorney for the Boeing Company. She's VERY good friends with some of the archivists and the restoration team....

One day, she calls me and said the found something kind of cool in the trash at work. (i'm a little taken aback at this, she makes pretty good money being a lawyer and all)

Anyway, she arrives home from work that day and calls me out to the car, where she greets me with this:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1227047/HBNDS-YB-17.JPG

This, my friends, is the First Flight, of the X(Y)B-17, 19 June 1935. It's flying over the famous Plant 2, which a couple short years later was camoflagued to look like one of the surrounding neighborhoods (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.docomomo-wewa.org/images/architects/architects_22_sm_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.docomomo-wewa.org/architects_detail.php%3Fid%3D22&h=55&w=87&sz=3&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=vD3_TtVFliYDEM:&tbnh=49&tbnw=77&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djohn%2Bdetlie%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den% 26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLJ,GGLJ:2006-49,GGLJ:en%26sa%3DN).
I cannot say how cool it is to see this photograph every morning.

Reason #4998765 why i love my wife.
Edit: She tells me that i should let you all know about the new site Boeing has launched, Boeing Images (http://www.boeingimages.com). You can find nearlyabything they've ever build or modified. Have Fun.

[Fletch]

What a find...Of course you know there was no B-17, X or Y, yet. It was still just model 299. The Army hadn't approved the plane - and almost didn't after it crashed and burned on a later flight.

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Boeing-299/info/CRASH-1.jpg

October 30, 1935. Model 299 takes off from Wright Field, OH, for a test flight under Maj. Pete Hill, the Army's chief test pilot. Boeing's Les Tower is in the right seat. 3 others are aboard to observe.

A mechanism allows the 299's huge control surfaces to be locked on the ground to prevent damage from high winds. But it is a new feature and easily overlooked in preflight.
The controls are still locked on takeoff.

The big ship leaves the runway and soon stalls in its climb. Unable to respond to its pilots, it turns sharply and noses into the ground in a ball of flame.
Two lieutenants rush into the fire to rescue Hill and Tower, both of whom die of their injuries within a few days. The others survive the crash.

Over a year passes before funding is granted for the first test squadron of B-17s. Meanwhile, the contract for which Boeing was in contention is let to Douglas for their twin-engine B-18 Bolo.

[rongoms]

Yes, it's truly the 299, but it's maked on the negative as X(Y)B-17.

It's interesting the way the merger has pitted one group of archivists against the other within the company. The "Douglas" people are quite militant about their history and go to great lengths to always show some MD superiority over Boeing products. It's almost comical.

[Hondo]

Rongoms: Not really being into aviation, just a lover of B-17’s since childhood, seen some early 1940’ish movies with early versions in them, always great to know her history, Thanks for the Boeing Links!!!!

BTW: Come back Wildroot!!! Where ever you are.

[Fletch]

It's interesting the way the merger has pitted one group of archivists against the other within the company. The "Douglas" people are quite militant about their history and go to great lengths to always show some MD superiority over Boeing products. It's almost comical.Historians are often that way. It's especially bad when the history is basically private and arcane in nature. With no peer community to answer to, backstabbing runs amok.

[captcouv]

Great thread (and finally a couple of guys talking about Pacific planes - of course, I'm a jarhead, too!).

Really love the P-40, the F4F & F6F, the Catalina, and the C-47, but also the looks of the Buffalo and the P-30/P-400. The guy I bought my first house from was an A-20 Havoc pilot in the European theater. My old CPA was a glider pilot on D-Day and at Market Garden. I loved talking to those guys.

I also know Jeff DeBlanc (USMC Medal of Honor) who still lives in Lafayette, LA. When I finally screwed up enough courage to ask what plane he liked best, he snorted, "You probably want me to say the Corsair! But baby, that Hellcat had it all over the F4! Man, I could take the Cat at a head-on pass on any Jap plane and blow it out of the sky before he got to me. Plus, whenever I had a ground target, the Cat really put steel on target and I could drive it right down to 100ft and still pull out!" I bought him another beer...

[jph712]

For fans or admirers of the Northrop P-61 Black Widow, visit www.maam.org. The Mid Atlantic Air Museum has 1 of 4 existing P-61s under restoration, photos showing recovery in New Guinea and restoration progress are on the site.

That Stuka in Chicago is as recovered in North Africa, never restored 'preserved' as-is. The engine is displayed seperately to save on weight in the hanging exhibit. All the paint is original German, would be a real shame to restore from original.

French prop driven fighters = ugly

[captcouv]

... P-30/P-400. ... Sheesh, that should be P-39.

Also like the Hawk 75.

Look at the Japanese planes, too. Claude, 'Zero', Betty, Rafe... Great planes! And who doesn't love the Stuka, Storch, ME109 or FW190?

[Smithy]

Because I'm a bit of a Battle of Britain nut, I perhaps have the slightest preference for the early WWII aircraft. The early Spitfire I and Hurricane I had the cleanest lines of their designs at the start of the War (IMHO), before cannons and various other adaptations, necessitated by needs for more peformance and firepower, changed the aircraft's aesthetics.

However when it comes to bombers it's the later War examples which I prefer, Lancs, B-17Gs. etc. And the Mossie in all her guises (fighter bomber, bomber, night fighter, recon) I adore. What a beautiful aircraft.

And there's others I like from all periods of the War... the P-51D, the stubby little FW-190A, the Westland Whirlwind, Me-109F...

So I'm probably sitting a little on the fence on this one. There's aircraft from all stages of the War which I like. But if I had to lean towards one side or other, I suppose I'd fall off onto the early War side. As well as the beauty of something like an early Spit, it's also their role and how they represent the greatest aviation battle of all time.

[TailendCharlie]

Here's one of my faves a bit of a odd duck,but I always liked thename.Aircobra;www.adamsplanes.com/photogallery/Loisel/P39%20in%20New%20Guinea.jpg over and out

[dhermann1]

A much maligned plane. The Russians loved them because most of their dogfighting was at a much lower altitude, plus they were great for strafing.
Speaking of Gyrenes, as I've mentioned in other threads. I have bound volumes of Leatherneck magazine from 1944 and 1945. My brother took the 1945 with him to Oshkosh some years back and got Pappy Boyington's autograph on the article about him in the Dec 45 issue. Pretty cool.
Another pretty cool late plane, Gloster Meteor. Can you imagine a 1946 war over Europe with Meteors and P 80's versus some of the advanced German types! Boggles the mind. And I've always been pretty impressed with the B29. It blew everyone in the worlds' minds at the time. Stalin even had a whole fleet of exact replicas built for his air force.
BTW, nobody's mentioned any Russian planes. They had some pretty impressive machines, too!

[Spitfire]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/SpitfireAndHurricane.jpg

What can be more beautifull:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
But - like Smithy - I wote for the early Mark's (This Spit ia a bad example - with clipped wings and all...)
And no matter my username - I tend to love the Hurricane the most. What a sturdy, reliable aeroplane it was. Could take a lot of beating. The bullets went straight through the canvas/wood - and still she flew.

[Twitch]

The fabric and even plywood covering of many WW 2 planes actually lended to their survival in that ordnance passed through doing no vital damage allowing them to keep going.;)

[Alan Eardley]

What can be more beautifull:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
But - like Smithy - I wote for the early Mark's (This Spit ia a bad example - with clipped wings and all...)


That's a LFIXe - built at Castle Bromwich in March 1944.

Alan

[Smithy]

A much maligned plane. The Russians loved them because most of their dogfighting was at a much lower altitude, plus they were great for strafing.[

A lot of the "bad press" that the P-39 gets is the fact that it was a dismal performer at altitude and also from the experience that 601 had with them, where to be honest the aircraft was hopelessly unsuited to the type on airwar which the RAF was waging over France and the Low Countries at the time. This has coloured the reputation of the aircraft but not without reason.

The P-39 was more suited to Eastern Front operations than Western Front due to the nature of the airfighting taking place there. In the East the airwar which the Soviets were fighting was more ground support oriented and also due to the severe weather which affects that part of the world at certain times of the year operational ceilings were lower.

Poor old 601 Squadron got lumbered with the things and found they were almost completely useless in the RAF's offensive ops on the Western Front over occupied Europe, mostly due to the fact that the P-39 was hopeless above 15,000 ft. The Rodeos, Ramrods, Circuses and Ranger ops that the RAF were pursuing at the time and the opposition aircraft that the RAF was facing demanded at least adequate performance at and above this height.

There were also numerous other problems with 601's aircraft. The compass had a tendency to be thrown out of alignment when the guns were fired (not particularly useful when you are over occupied France of Belgium, or the North Sea for that matter). In terms of night operations it was a dud, the exhaust flames could be seen up to 3 miles away, and when the guns were fired at night, the pilot was usually nearly blinded. Its fairly long take-off run was not very helpful as well, as it prevented the aircraft being operational from certain aerodromes. The aircraft required a huge raft of modifications when they were received by 601 and still needed many more even at the time when 601 gave them up.

The Russians were successful with them but the aircraft was more suited to the war they were waging. And in the PTO there was also a need for high altitude performance and once again the P-39 was lacking. It eventually (as in Russia) gained some success in the ground support role in the Pacific but was out-shined by better performing aircraft. There is no doubt though that the Russians had the most success with the aircraft.

[Spitfire]

The fabric and even plywood covering of many WW 2 planes actually lended to their survival in that ordnance passed through doing no vital damage allowing them to keep going.;)
Besides the Hurricane, the (beautiful) Mosquito and some very early ones like swordfish etc, which other WWII planes are you thinking about, Twitch?:)

[TailendCharlie]

Besides the Hurricane, the (beautiful) Mosquito and some very early ones like swordfish etc, which other WWII planes are you thinking about, Twitch?:)
This pilot has quite the impressive record;www.adamsplanes.com/images/Tuck/Tuck_in_cockpit.jpg
Is it me or do the men all seem to look like Errol Flynn or
Clark Gable?

[Smithy]

Tuck was originally on Spitfires and was less than impressed to be posted as CO to 257 with Hurricanes towards the end of the Battle. However he soon learnt to like the aircraft and stated many times afterwards that compared with the Spitfire, the Hurricane was a better gun platform, better in a turning dogfight and could take more punishment.

You're not the first one to make the Errol Flynn remark about Tuck :)

[Alan Eardley]

Besides the Hurricane, the (beautiful) Mosquito and some very early ones like swordfish etc, which other WWII planes are you thinking about, Twitch?:)

Vickers Wellington?

Alan

[The Wingnut]

I'm a mid-war type of guy. I like razorback P-47s (anything D-24 and earlier), A & B/C Mustangs, FW-190A-3s, Nakajima Ki-84s, and early Hawker Typhoon 1Bs.

[Tony in Tarzana]

Didn't the Mosquito have, by virtue of its wooden construction, a rather low radar return? An early "Stealth Bomber"?

A great looking and performing airplane as well. Two Merlins can really put out some power, eh?

[Spitfire]

That's a LFIXe - built at Castle Bromwich in March 1944.

Alan

Thanks Allan. No doubt it's a great plane - I just meant it was not the typical Spit Mark I silhouette.:)

[Spitfire]

Didn't the Mosquito have, by virtue of its wooden construction, a rather low radar return? An early "Stealth Bomber"?

A great looking and performing airplane as well. Two Merlins can really put out some power, eh?http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/mosquito.jpg

The Mosquitoplane you see here was part of the RAF group that bombed the Gestapo HQ in Copenhagen (Formerly the Sheel Company Building - seen burning in the top left corner) March 21 1945.
Because Gestapo had placed 26 danish prisoners on the top floor as a bombshield, the planes had to fly almost on streetlevel - in between the buildings - in order to try to bomb almost horizontal.
The reason for the bombing was that Gestapo had too much knowledge in their archives of the danish resistance, so they (the danish resistance) asked RAF to bomb the building. Otherwise large parts of the danish resistance would have been arrested and killed.

The attack was done in broad daylight and the bombing was so precise, that 18 of the 26 prisoners from the top floor even managed to escape.

Unfortunately there was a tragic misunderstanding during the bombing, when a plane chashed after hitting a LIGHTPOLE !!! (That's how low they flew) some of the following pilots thought the burning plane to be the target and dropped their bombs on a school - "The French School" - and 96children and 13 teachers and nuns were tragically killed.
But the raid was a succes - thanks to the Mosquitos and their gallant crews.

Just after the war, when Wingcommandor Johnny Johnson, - who was in charge of the RAF wing that landed in Kastrup Airfield, Copenhagen may 6th 1945 - heard about the accidental bombing, he arranged a airshow with his spitfires, so the danes could see the famous planes in flight. The money payed in entrance fee all went to the families of the dead children from the French School.
Several thousand copenhagerners went to the airshow.

[TailendCharlie]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/SpitfireAndHurricane.jpg

What can be more beautifull:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
But - like Smithy - I wote for the early Mark's (This Spit ia a bad example - with clipped wings and all...)
And no matter my username - I tend to love the Hurricane the most. What a sturdy, reliable aeroplane it was. Could take a lot of beating. The bullets went straight through the canvas/wood - and still she flew.
Spitfire,, thought you might like this,across the Detroit river is a OHL hockey team with your call sign;www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/sports/images/hockeypuck/windsor-national1.JPG
cheers tailendcharlie

[Spitfire]

Nice:eusa_clap Cheers Tailend C.

[TailendCharlie]

Nice:eusa_clap Cheers Tailend C.
www.richard-seaman.com/Wallpaper/Aircraft/Fighters/SpitfireMkV.jpg
:cheers1:

[Diamondback]

IIRC, wasn't the Marauder nicknamed the "Martin Prostitute", because it "had no visible means of support"?

Museum of Flight owns that B-17 up here, I think they keep it at Paine Field when it's not out and about. It's back flying, every so often Boeing books the bird for various local events. (Let me tell you, it's always fun crashing their parties...)

Me, I wouldn't mind a two-seater Me262 jet fighter, something with a foot (wheel?) in both the "vintage" and "modern" worlds. Although there's just something about a shark-mouthed AVG P-40, fighting it out against hopeless odds over the CBI Theater and still managing to rack 'em up...

Or one of the "Black Cat" PBY's. Being able to land anywhere there's calm water in event of emergency holds a certain appeal...

[John in Covina]

The P-47 Thunderbolt is my favorite fighter from WWII, but pretty much all of the warplanes from WWI and on simply amaze me.;)

[TarHeel1911]

I'm a big fan of the early "razorback" style WWII fighters. Some of my favorites:

P-40, especially as flown by the AVG;
P-51 B or C models-I like the ones with the Spitfire-style Malcom hood;
Any of the early Spitfires;
F4F Wildcat.

I'm not up on the model numbers at all, but some of the Soviet YAK and Ilyushin fighters were pretty cool, too.

P-38 and P-39, while not falling into the above category, are both unique and interesting aircraft.

One of my shooting buddies was an AAF pilot stationed in North Africa. He would entertain us with flying stories. I recall inviting him to the Miramar Air Show to see the Blue Angels one year. His reply: "Hmmph. I did all that stuff in 1942. We just did it about 175 mph slower."

[aswatland]

I would have to vote for the Hurricane Mk1 and the Spitfire Mk11, which the main fighters in the Battle of Britain. I love the elegant line of the Spit and ruggedness of the Hurricane!

[dhermann1]

How about the Hawker Typhoon? Sort of the British P-47. Very similar planes. BIG scoop.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5126/hawkertyphooniv5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Clyde R.]

I would have to say that the early warbirds are especially interesting to me also.

The only late ones I am really fascinated by are the P51Ds and the B29s...both are supremely beautiful and high performance late war aircraft that just appeal to me for some reason.

As a general rule though, I like the early Spitfire MkIIs, Me-109Es, Wildcats, etc. The Battle of Britain time period, the war in Africa and the desperate early days of the war in the Pacific all appeal to me. Perhaps it is the "underdog" aspect of the allies early efforts, I don't know. But you can't beat the lines and charm of those early warbirds.

[oakarff22]

Being former Navy, I've always liked the PBY Catalina. A versatile aircraft that many owed their lives too in regards to Air/Sea Rescue but also with locating the enemy fleet thus giving our forces the first crack in attacking them.

The siting of the Japanese fleet at Midway, the siting of the Bismarck, the attack and sinking of many enemy submarines.

The Catalina was instrumental in helping win WW2.

Sarge

[David Conwill]

I’m an “early bird” fellow myself, and I think for much the same reasons. There’s something more romantic in a few brave men in obsolete equipment facing up against a seemingly unstoppable wave of aggressors than in the industrial might of North America and the Soviet Union crushing an outnumbered enemy.

This is why I only really start to like the P-51 when it’s facing MiG-15s over Korea. I also prefer my U.S. markings with red balls in the center and red-and-white stripes on the rudder.

-Dave

[Silver Dollar]

The biggest problem with the later aircraft is that they came along in a time where our winning the war was almost a certainty. In the early days on both sides of the globe, we were fledglings up against a well trained battle hardened enemy. It seems the missions were tougher and the successes were almost miraculous. It's almost like the early birds participated in the quest for our air superiority which is a crucial key to winning a war. It's hard to love a P47 N or a B24 H that came along when we already had air superiority.