German & Austrian Hutmachers

I'm not totally disagreeing with you here but I think there's a general understanding of what is and is not a dress hat. I'm sure that from country to country, the characteristics of a town/dress hat will differ but I can't really see the "Zapf Rotunde" in an urban setting, worn with a city suit, for example.
The green/gold band is quite a regional/traditional outdoor pursuits type embellishment. I know there are dress-y and outdoors-y versions of many of these traditional hats and a dressy version would be worn with dressy regional/traditional attire and a more rustic version with the rustic attire.

There are also dressy versions of Western hats but I would not think of them as dress hats, outside of a dressy Western ensemble.

I guess I'm speaking of a tradition of generic dress hats, rather than dress versions of traditional/regional hats.

I guess.

I'm sure you know what I mean.

The "dress hats" I posted, the Homburg and Fedora are "traditional" hats but based upon turn-of-the-20th-Century
Town hat styling that was common in Europe, America and beyond. I don't know that there is anything definitely German about them- although the "Gompertz" looks very similar to one seen on Hitler in the early '30s.

You could argue that the Homburg is a regional hat and originally, it was but was adopted into the realm of "normal" hats and worn in formal settings the World over, popular Japan.


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Here is the Zapf Rotunde being worn in a formal setting. I believe the design goes back to the turn of the century same with the Bittner. I think both would look fine with a city suit.



I see a German Alpen influence in both the Homburg and Fedora. Isn't the Fedora from Austria? The Homburg (ie Bad Homburg) is of course from Germany.

Oh- I thought we were talking about Mens' hats...
Women can wear whatever, whenever.

I'm done with the ins and outs of dress hats vs. Tyrolean hats now .

I like a lot of the German/Austrian/etc. styles- must get more...
but getting a good quality hat into the bargain can be a problem.
I can accept that some of the more rustic hats are traditionally woolen/loden and always have been- fine, but it seems that a lot of the hats available are more costume, rather than of a quality that would suit me. Of course there are some very expensive hats available too. Some of the trad. Schützenhutte appeal to me but many of the example I've seen are not too good on quality.
I want a hat that will keep its shape. I guess I'm comparing apples and oranges- I'm used to vintage American and European hats- modern hats don't always cut it and good vintage German hats are pretty thin on the ground. The vintage German and European (Fedoras, Homburgs)hats that I own and have previously owned have all been very well made and from fine felts.

I'm rambling(wandering)now.

More hat talk- lets get off the "versus" thing now, huh..?


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BellyTank said:

Oh- I thought we were talking about Mens' hats...
Women can wear whatever, whenever.

I'm rambling(wandering)now.

More hat talk- lets get off the "versus" thing now, huh..?

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In Austria these type of hats are worn by women too. This was a formal occasion and she was wearing a formal hat.

Over and out!

My father has a hat by Mayser which is intended as a dress hat. Is is made from soft fur felt with long hair but is black with a grosgrain band, allowing it to be a dress hat.

As for durability, any hat made from loden (the thickened wool felt) will hold up brilliantly. I know wool hats are generally cheap, but loden is an exception to that rule. I have a loden overcoat and it is completely waterproof. Loden can be identified by its green/grey colour (although it can be dyed other colours), course texture and thickness compared to other felts.

Wow.........

I love this crease, is it original or is there a name for it? [huh]

It's this, but softer and backward.

Bud-n-Texas said:

Actually not new, it is called an arrow crown.

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German hats

Hello,

interesting thread. German hat fashion dates back to the middle ages when dress rules were set for everybody. By the dress one could distinct the social and economic position of the wearer. There were also diferent dresses and hats worn for diferent occasions. Workware, sunday church aparel .... .

Next to the various professional and office hats (court, military, clregic ...) one would find a large variety of regional country-styles. Almost every village had it´s own distinctive style within the regional mainstream. Within the style range there were diverent levels of formality to be found. Most of the styles of contry costume, that is still worn on a regional level, today, has been developped in the 18th and 19th century. Many styles have dissapeared, some are still worn. In the time period country folks would wear their formal apparel when in town town on a business or official trip.

Here in Bavaria it is still perfectly alright to attend a business meeting or even the governor´s new year´s reception in forlal regional country style.

Coming back to hats. There were never really larger productions of german country style hats. Mainly because of the fact that the actual designs were very local (one can find certin mainstreams in terma of the hat body. Differences are often decoration based). Therefore hats were designed and supplied by the many local hatters and workshops. Since most of them are gone, today, one can find only very few hatters in Germany and Austria that still supply to the limited regional demand.

Most of the "country hats" one can find in the catalogues of the big hat companies do not reflect a unique style. The thing gets worse, when the hats come from chinese productions.

Hotkoenig - and to some extend Zapf - are, indeed, good examples of manufacturers that cater genuene high quality hats to regional demand. Many designs you find on today´s market are some kind of contempory country mainstream. Sometimes good quality and nice to wear, however. Local flee markets are a good source for original country hat designs of the past.

Solong

Holy SMOKE! How did I miss this thread??

Trachten

I only wonder how it came that the Trachten/hats died out in the Northern and Eastern parts Germany while they still flourish in the Catholic South as Bayern, Österreich and Schwaben.
Industrialisation can not be the reason since all regions of Germany and Austria are pretty much industrialised and developped.
The German looking 'alpine' hats are omnipresent with all forrestors and hunters.
I am glad that this thread discusses the German hats...

bolthead said:

I love this crease, is it original or is there a name for it? [huh]

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Maybe it represents the foot of a game animal...
It's a kind of reversed version of the "arrow" style.


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HungaryTom said:

I only wonder how it came that the Trachten/hats died out in the Northern and Eastern parts Germany while they still flourish in the Catholic South as Bayern, Österreich and Schwaben.
Industrialisation can not be the reason since all regions of Germany and Austria are pretty much industrialised and developped.
The German looking 'alpine' hats are omnipresent with all forrestors and hunters.
I am glad that this thread discusses the German hats...

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I guess it´s the same reason why there is so many catholics in southern germany... The traditions didn´t die out there, but why? Maybe it´s just the nature of people from mountains.

Bergmutze

Interesting thread.

On German hats, I wonder if the certain style of German cap called a bergmutze still receives any use? That is, are the bergmutze/feldmutze caps still used by rural German workers at all?

At one time, they were a very common cap. A lot of European armies wore them, and of course, they're' infamously associated with the German Army from the later stages of WWII. Be that as it may, I think a version of them was still in use by Austrian mountain troops relatively recently, and perhaps still is. And I think that farmers and others once wore them as well. Do they still receive any civilian use?

For those who might not be familiar with these, they resemble the hat called an "Engineer's Cap", or a "Stormy Cromer", in the US, but the ear flaps are external (sort of like the Filson cap). They have a brim like a baseball cap, with the ear flaps for cold weather folding up, externally, along the side of the cap and buttoning on the front. They look to have been a fairly practical hat for cool or cold weather.

Gebirgsjäger Cap

Pat_H said:

Interesting thread.

On German hats, I wonder if the certain style of German cap called a bergmutze still receives any use? That is, are the bergmutze/feldmutze caps still used by rural German workers at all?

At one time, they were a very common cap. A lot of European armies wore them, and of course, they're' infamously associated with the German Army from the later stages of WWII. Be that as it may, I think a version of them was still in use by Austrian mountain troops relatively recently, and perhaps still is. And I think that farmers and others once wore them as well. Do they still receive any civilian use?

For those who might not be familiar with these, they resemble the hat called an "Engineer's Cap", or a "Stormy Cromer", in the US, but the ear flaps are external (sort of like the Filson cap). They have a brim like a baseball cap, with the ear flaps for cold weather folding up, externally, along the side of the cap and buttoning on the front. They look to have been a fairly practical hat for cool or cold weather.

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Hallo Pat,

this style of hat was still in use after wwII within army and police forces. They almost entirely disapeared in the 80ies. I think, mountain troopers still weare the gray cap with their formal uniform. There is also a current field cap of the form in camo design.

HungaryTom said:

I only wonder how it came that the Trachten/hats died out in the Northern and Eastern parts Germany while they still flourish in the Catholic South as Bayern, Österreich and Schwaben.
Industrialisation cannot be the reason since all regions of Germany and Austria are pretty much industrialised and developped.
The German looking 'alpine' hats are omnipresent with all foresters and hunters.

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That may be, but there are plenty of Protestants in Swabia and much of Franconia - and Switzerland is mainly Protestant.
Is there more hat-wearing in Germany and Austria today than in the rest of Europe?

HungaryTom said:

I only wonder how it came that the Trachten/hats died out in the Northern and Eastern parts Germany while they still flourish in the Catholic South as Bayern, Österreich and Schwaben.
Industrialisation can not be the reason since all regions of Germany and Austria are pretty much industrialised and developped.
The German looking 'alpine' hats are omnipresent with all forrestors and hunters.
I am glad that this thread discusses the German hats...

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True, one can find all kind of Bavarian/Austrian hat styles alover the place, actually worldwide.

Yes, a certin conservativism and people rooted in traditions is certinly one reason.

Bavaria and large parts of Austria started industrialisation on a larger scale after WWII. Until the late 60ies, agriculture and forestry were the prominent industries, especialy in certin regions. Having saied that BMW cars and planes were already biult in Bavaria, before WWII

In the other parts of germany worker- and socialist movements started in the late 19 c. People from original agricultural backgrounds now worked in industry. The typical hat, they would wear, was the cloth cap. It was that much widespread among the working classes so that this style of cap was asociated with the socialist, as such. Other style, traditional hats disapeared. Conservative and upper class people would wear Homburgs, Fedoras... .

So, my point is: Traditional country style hats disapeared in other parts of Germany due to industrialisation and were replaced by the typical working class cap. In Bavaria and Austria, agriculture kept on being the industrial base and people kept a conservative mindset. Thererfore, country costumes and hats survived.

By the way, beware! When you happen to see Munich folks hanging out at Tegernsee beer gardens in the summer weekends you will notice mobile phones sticking in the knife pockets of lederhosen. Absolutely revolting, that is! :rage: Hats are rarely seen. Hm, panamas, sometimes

Here is a German top hat, c1900 I am told, the label reads "Joh. Fehme Munchen". I have not been able to find any information about the hutmacher firm of Johanne Fehme, but at least it is a hat that is unquestionably 'dress'.

DonCarlos, Dreispitz,

I agree with the point that it was rather conservativism and Traditionspflege that were responsible for the survival of hatwearing since BMW, BASF, BAYER, Porsche and MagnaSteyr etc…. are quite far from the Bucolic idyll displayed in the Heimatfilms.

**
Besides the Alpine hats having great outdoor values it is Tam O’Shanter, the Basque/French berets, Cowboy hats, Sombreros and Ushankas that were rural costumes and survived into modern day wardrobe as part of the headgear in different variations because of their genial utility value.

HungaryTom said:

DonCarlos, Dreispitz,

I agree with the point that it was rather conservativism and Traditionspflege that were responsible for the survival of hatwearing since BMW, BASF, BAYER, Porsche and MagnaSteyr etc…. are quite far from the Bucolic idyll displayed in the Heimatfilms.

**
Besides the Alpine hats having great outdoor values it is Tam O’Shanter, the Basque/French berets, Cowboy hats, Sombreros and Ushankas that were rural costumes and survived into modern day wardrobe as part of the headgear in different variations because of their genial utility value.

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Utilitarian value is right! I, myself wear a green contemporary country style Zapf for stable work, horse riding and hiking. When in town I doff a Fedora or Homburg (the only Homburg, by the way. Untin the seventies Homburgs were more comon).

LordBest said:

Here is a German top hat, c1900 I am told, the label reads "Joh. Fehme Munchen". I have not been able to find any information about the hutmacher firm of Johanne Fehme, but at least it is a hat that is unquestionably 'dress'.

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Wow, where did you come across that beauty!?

Johann Fehme does not exist, anymore, as the many hatters of Munich and other places do not, either.

Top hats, Homburgs and Fedoras were the town hats in Germany until the war times. Top hats were also common in rural areas, worn on sunday for church or special occasions. Certinly not by everyone. Like in town.

By the way, some of the more formal black countrey costume hats are derivatives of the top hat. The Ausseer was a high crown stiff top hat, initially.