Unseen In The Worse Places [Blackjacks & Saps]

[Paul Gomez]

The thread concerning shoulder holsters got me thinking about blackjack and saps. In times past, the blackjack or sap was as common a 'pocket implement' as a jackknife, among certain social circles. :cool2:

Does anyone know of current sources for traditional blackjacks, saps or brass knucks?

[zeus36]

Can't seem to find any suppliers, you may need to go to a police equip. store.

Here is a link for more info:

http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html

there is also a parent link on the above page to get you to the self defense forums.

[Badluck Brody]

Almost feel like I was a young hoodlum again!

Brody

[aliados]

I just joined this post, and, apparently, judging form the "where do I get . . ." questions, there's no one here from Chi or NY! Blackjacks and brass knuckles used ot be common in many Chinatown (NY) shops, and, while down in Orlando, FL a couple of months ago, I found them -- and switchblades -- in every flea market.

Some of the on-line knife stores have "paperwight" or "belt buckle" brass knuckles, as does eBay, but a good, OLD FASHIONED blackjack is hard to find! I shoulda bought the 1890s San Fransico Police blackjack I came across in an antique store in Connecticut!

Charlie

[IndianaGuybrush]

Whatsa matter with you mugs, a sock fulla pennies too good for ya?

[aliados]

I remember how impressed I was when an actor (either Ray Danton playing Geroge Raft, or Raft in an old movie), sitting at a restaurant table, casually made a sap out of a linen napkin and a saltshaker!

[Feraud]

For blackjacks try Cheaper Than Dirt (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=2003&category=Police+Gear&dept%5Fname=Batons%2FNightsticks+%26+Slaps&mscssid=DNNU19UFANSE8NTK4J3VX1VMF65CAAB3).

[Andykev]

The thread concerning shoulder holsters got me thinking about blackjack and saps. In times past, the blackjack or sap was as common a 'pocket implement' as a jackknife, among certain social circles. :cool2:

Does anyone know of current sources for traditional blackjacks, saps or brass knucks?

Possession of any of those items, in California, constitute a FELONY.
Of course, if you are a licensed collector, or historical film maker.......

[Biltmore Bob]

Back in the 80s my Dept. still let us carry saps and blackjacks. I never liked the little things, not enough reach for me. Like my "Pale Rider" friend Clint once said...."Nothing beats a good peice of Hickory."

[shamus]

I believe they are illegal to carry. That being said, I did find a great blackjack in a thrift store display case for $5.00. At first I didn't believe it was just sitting there, then once my brain made the connection to what it actually was, I was five dollars short.

[Badluck Brody]

I'm just thinking prop or something!

Brimstone

[Biltmore Bob]

It's probably not against the law for a cop to have one of those things.

[Feraud]

I have been meaning to pick up a sap. I have a switchblade, for historical interest of course! :)

[matei]

How about a roll of coins?

I once knew a fella in NY that would use a roll of nickles. He'd put it in his fist and suprise the bejaysus out of bruisers much larger then him when he'd connect.

[Biltmore Bob]

I carry my sap, brass knuckles, sawn off shotgun, switchblade, and machinegun for fun and self defense purposes only.

[FinalVestige79]

If there is still any interest in these I have a very reliable and reputable source for both blackjacks and saps that are of unmatched quality and very affordable for being well under a C-note. Each one is made entirely by hand, either ready-made or by custom requests.

Blackjacks - An impact weapon with a molded lead head of varying oz that is molded directly onto a coiled spring and then wrapped in leather by either braid or stitch.

Saps - Impact weapon of a flat nature with either lead shot or a molded chunk of lead also in varying oz, in the head wrapped in leather with not spring. Also called a slapper.

But the 2 names are synonymous.

There are groups of collectors of enthusiasts who sell, buy and trade these weapons. They have become highly collectible in recent years because of their craftsmanship, notoriety, and nostalgia.

They are made by 2 Brothers in NC, one makes Blackjacks and one makes saps. They come in lots of flavors.

Here are some examples of their blackjacks -

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/Dylan2ndID/HandWeapons/ScottsBlackjacks.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/Dylan2ndID/HandWeapons/oxjack.jpg

And some of their saps -

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/Dylan2ndID/HandWeapons/salesewnjack.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/Dylan2ndID/HandWeapons/set04.jpg

EDIT : I do not have any monetary interest in this company. I can only vouch for their quality because I have seen them in person.

You can also find them on - Southord.com - Can't vouch for their quality they look good tho come in 2 flavors, 8 oz and 14 oz.

http://www.shottist.com/saps.htm

[Geesie]

Possession of any of those items, in California, constitute a FELONY.

Someone needs to start a National Knife and Club Association. It's pretty absurd that you can carry a pistol but not a knife or brass knuckles.

[Warbaby]

Here's a photo of my early San Francisco blackjack, c.1900. It's solid brass, nickel plated - a real killer. From the amount of plating that's worn off, this baby has seen some use.


http://www.warbaby.com/fedorapix/Blackjack.JPG

[Viola]

I might make a pair of weighted gloves at some point. I can't use brass knuckles, my hands are too small and it'd just hurt.

My younger sister hit me with our dad's sap once when we were kids. I was pretty mad at the time.

[FinalVestige79]

Here's a photo of my early San Francisco blackjack, c.1900. It's solid brass, nickel plated - a real killer. From the amount of plating that's worn off, this baby has seen some use.


http://www.warbaby.com/fedorapix/Blackjack.JPG

That is absolutely beautiful Warbaby if she could tell stories.... You can see my blackjack in the picture above, its the 2nd from left the russet looking one next to the white one. It was modeled after the Bucheimer Convoy, but it doesn't weigh as much the head is about 9oz with the total weight being about 10oz. I was surprised how well made it is.

Viola: I can't use them either, most people cant without breaking their hands, the brits made the best knuckledusters, they actually out thought into how they fit and felt. If you do make the gloves use bird shot it makes for a wider dispersal pattern, it hurts the user less, and does a good enough job.

[carter]

These weighted page holders from the Shottist look like a good alternative for those living in a place where blackjacks, saps, and brass knuckles may be illegal.

http://www.shottist.com/saps/page%20holders.jpg http://www.shottist.com/saps/pageholders2.jpg
http://www.shottist.com/saps.htm

[FinalVestige79]

I see you got some!! How do you like them?

[Creeping Past]

Weighted page holders?! Of course! :eusa_clap

Don't mess with archival researchers... :eek:

[FinalVestige79]

I think i'm gonna get one of these since I read in public alot...hmmm

[Jay]

Pretty neat stuff, GranadaGuy. I've read about blackjacks and saps in numerous detective stories, but I don't think I've seen one before. While they are beautiful in their own way, I don't think I'd carry one. A roll of dimes is a good substitute, since [I]they[I] can't bust you for carrying currency.

[FinalVestige79]

Yeah same here, when I was about 12-13 I made one out of a small leather pouch and filled it loosely with about $1.25 in nickles tied it with leather laces and done.

[Feraud]

From Levenger-
http://www.levimage.com/IMAGE/PRODUCTS/MISCELLANEOUS_PRODUCTS/AB0280_FY_0108_CSW_BRN.jpg
http://www.levenger.com/

[FinalVestige79]

Well to bring back this old thread I thought I would let you guys know the source for these items are now soley left to collectors and South Ord. saps are still available from one brother, and the other has stopped making coshes, I bought the last 5 he made.The second from the left is made with a steel cable instead of a spring. It acts like a slungshot.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/Dylan2ndID/HandWeapons/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNDAtMjAxMDA1MDYtMTE0N.jpg

Also on the wire, there is a guy head of knuckledusterbook.com who makes coin jacks for those interested. There is also these awesome vintage police catalogue posters he is selling on his site...

http://images3.cafepress.com/product/320255913v3_480x480_Front.jpg

http://images5.cafepress.com/product/320251165v5_480x480_Front.jpg

[dr greg]

There's a great scene in Mulholland Falls where Nick Nolte shows how it's done with a sap, unfortunately it's a crime to carry anything like that here, as I found out when the cops took one off me made out of the brass strap holder from a tram...but that's another story from long ago....

[Big_e]

Edit: I agree with Diamondback. Nothing constructive to add here, just looking.
Ernest

[Diamondback]

Of course, there is no law precluding you from carrying a $10 roll of quarters and a spare pair of socks... never know when you'll need change for a vending machine, and some of us need (REALLY need--as in "foot odor on the WMD level":eek: ) to change socks halfway through the day.;)

Just don't keep 'em preassembled--which then means you gotta keep eyes-up to see the bad guys inbound to put it all together.

This discussion is completely theoretical and should not be construed as advice for defense, offense or anything else--but keeping an eye out is always a good idea, no matter who or where you are or what the situation is, right?

[HarpPlayerGene]

This is a bit of a stretch but...

When my dad was a little kid (c. 1922) having been transplanted from the big city of Detroit to the (then) swamps (Hwy, 441 was two dirt ruts) of Orlando, Florida, he initially got bullied by the local southern boys.

So, on about the third day as he got ready to walk to school, he left with his metal lunch box empty. Then, as soon as he got a chance he packed it full of hard green oranges from a nearby grove.

WHAM!

He went without lunch that day but he also went without getting picked on from that point forward. :D

[Bustercat]

That is a great story. I do miss those metal lunchboxes, I'd like to think they kept kids a little more polite than today.

Yeah, knucks, saps etc. are illegal alot of places. Seems pretty quaint legislation now.
Anyone remember the story of the would be developer of Chicago's Dixie Square (the mall they used for the chase scene in the Blues Brothers, that's been standing vacant since '85?)
He was sent up for threatening an investor with a pair of brass knucks. Still there, I believe. Probably for other things too, by now.

[Parabellum]

At least two people have mentioned the 'roll of quarters in a sock' trick as a means to bypass current misdemeanor or felony laws on concealed weapons. If going that route, I would opt toward using D-cell batteries or even bars of soap inside a thick sock (with the end tied off).

If you are not concerned about the law - or have a concealed carry permit - although not retro fashionable, I highly recommend the ASP baton. I carry mine in a horizontal holster that fits a regular dress belt.

[HosManHatter]

Excellent thread! Black Jacks,Flat Saps,Billy Clubs,Night Sticks,Batons,PR-24s or ASPs...truncheons are brutal and effective.

I have the larger size flat sap with the integral strap handle in an understated basic black(so it matches a gentleman`s attire). My "slapper" is the full sized one and measures 11in. from end to end.I believe the "operative" weight is 14oz.Very illegal to carry on your person or have in your vehicle...to be sure.I`m pretty sure that for us Californians it is even against the law to own/possess one. Oops! Just my weighted page holder,kids. :) Got mine mailorder back in the 1980s.

Flat saps are a bit more versitile than black jacks or billy clubs,IMO,because you can employ them in the traditional whipping/smacking blow that strikes with the flat profile of the sap-- or you can use a downward club-like delivery using the bitter edge of the sap`s striking end. The leather is so compacted and tightly stitched together along the flat sap`s edge and feels as hard as iron. Edge blows from a "slapper" could easily cause permanant damage including and up to death. Nasty.

When I worked for the CHP (briefly,support staff),I was informed that a.) these truncheon weapons are a felony and b.) that you may as well carry a pistol illegally since both are punished equally severe.
:eek: Doesn`t make sense,does it?

HMH

p.s. Link to site that sells/ships truncheon weapons: http://www.weapons-universe.com/
You read/agree to the company`s DISCLAIMER ergo assuming responsibility for your purchase and/or for any ignorance of the law. :)

[Big Man]

My Dad was a school principal, and our house was on the school grounds. The high school building was on one side, the elementary building on the other, and the gym behind. As a kid in the late real early 1960's, I can remember hearing a commotion outside the house one night after a ballgame. Looking out our dining room window I saw one of our local Sheriff's Deputies using a slap jack on a drunk.

You really had to know the Deputy for the full effect of this story. He was a very small man, but had a temper (and "cussed like a sailor"). I can still see and hear the scene as if it just happened. The Deputy was sitting on top of a really big man who was obviously drunk. The Deputy would whap the drunk with the slap jack and say, "now, cuss me again, you S.O.B." then whap, whap to the head with the slap jack.

Yep, it sure made an impression on me.

[Mav]

There is no need for a fancy blackjack if you have a scrap piece of rigid electrical conduit at hand. It has flex, so it's like a short, thick aluminum whip. And it will break a collarbone, easily. Especially since drunks always expect a strike to the head. The same goes for pool cues, although they're better for a strike to the 'nads. Drunks who take offense at a friendly game of 8 ball especially expect a headstrike, but are shocked and offended at a nadstrike..
But everyone appreciates a surprise. Well, ""appreciate" might be too strong a term.

[Undertow]

Unfortunately, I've lost my sap over years of moving. I think you can still purchase saps, blackjacks and brass knuckles at local gun shows, too.

[shortbow]

As a reader not a fighter, thanks for bringing this thread back up. Imna gonna make me one of those page holders. Looks like a very easy build.

[Neophyte]

I prefer the tonfa:

http://users1.ml.mindenkilapja.hu/users/naruto_szerep/uploads/tonfa11.jpg

[Feraud]

Vintage kung fu maybe but not quite a handy piece of pocket protection. ;)

[erikb02809]

I've been more of a lurker (as opposed to a contributor) for the last couple of years, so forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds here...

But am I the only one who finds it distasteful that this thread has to some extent devolved from "hey, old timey blackjacks and saps, aren't those neat?" sorta thing to a bunch of vintage fashion enthusiasts talking about their preferred method of socking it to belligerent drunks?

I'm no pacifist, having been in my fair share of scuffles and also having boxed and trained in a few different martial arts. That said, I find the atmosphere in this thread to be beneath what I've come to expect reading on the Fedora Lounge.

I guess I can see how the path of discussion meandered in the direction it did, with the title of the thread and all, but this is a thread in a vintage fashion forum, in "General Attire & Accouterments". I think I may speak for more than just myself when I say that weighing the pros and cons of traditional Okinawan martial arts implements vs. electrical conduit vs. a role of quarters as weaponry, or "head shots" vs. "nad shots" is somewhat out of place in a less-than-dignified sort of way in such a forum dedicated to the ins and outs of vintage fashion.

It is not my intention to engage in ad hominem attacks, so I'll stop here, lest my words be interpreted as such. Just felt the need to share is all.

Hey, looks like I contributed [huh]

[John in Covina]

I've been more of a lurker (as opposed to a contributor) for the last couple of years, so forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds here...

But am I the only one who finds it distasteful that this thread has to some extent devolved from "hey, old timey blackjacks and saps, aren't those neat?" sorta thing to a bunch of vintage fashion enthusiasts talking about their preferred method of socking it to belligerent drunks?

I'm no pacifist, having been in my fair share of scuffles and also having boxed and trained in a few different martial arts. That said, I find the atmosphere in this thread to be beneath what I've come to expect reading on the Fedora Lounge.

I guess I can see how the path of discussion meandered in the direction it did, with the title of the thread and all, but this is a thread in a vintage fashion forum, in "General Attire & Accouterments". I think I may speak for more than just myself when I say that weighing the pros and cons of traditional Okinawan martial arts implements vs. electrical conduit vs. a role of quarters as weaponry, or "head shots" vs. "nad shots" is somewhat out of place in a less-than-dignified sort of way in such a forum dedicated to the ins and outs of vintage fashion.

It is not my intention to engage in ad hominem attacks, so I'll stop here, lest my words be interpreted as such. Just felt the need to share is all.

Hey, looks like I contributed [huh]

Always the moral highground approach and coupled with the standard "I don't really mean it this way BUT..."

Even the Boyscouts know the concept: "Be Prepared" because if you you don't have a plan you're sucking wind. Golden Era gentleman often lived in areas where violence occured much like today whether rural small town or big city. Many went thru WWII and they knew how to "Take Care Of Business." It's the difference between idealists and people that live in the real world. The real world is a dirty place where a lot of bad things happen and if you are unprepared then bad things can happen to you whether by bad people or from the realm of nature like an earthquake.

Now I will throw out a couple of cautionS:
As written in the article about these, it's easy to kill or maim someone with these. If it's illegal in your area it may change the ability to plead self defense and having to respond to a higher charge. Much like a bar fight if you use a pool cue stick in your defense you are in a different realm with the prosecutor. While it's better to judged by 12 than carried by 6 a lengthy trial is punishment in itself and will change your life and financial standing in the community even if found not guilty.

Over in the gun stuff they have asked we don't discuss ammo, what happens when you use it and the favored areas on the body for immediate incapacitation because some people are a bit taken aback by such discussion. We may need to temper our remarks here also.

Personally I like hearing the blood and guts stories as it's a reference for red alert response time and I consider some of the info as lessons heard because as my dad used to say: "Life is a bitch, there are no promises for anything to be fair and you got to know that in this life."

[erikb02809]

No, I mean exactly what I wrote. And it's not a matter of morals, it's a matter of taste. We're on a vintage fashion forum, and there's discussion of nad shots and beating people. I don't have a beef with anyone personally, merely the content of the thread as it has evolved, which is why I specified I did not intend my criticism to be taken personally. I recommend reading what's on the lines and not imaging what's in between them.

If we were on a preparedness forum, self defense forum, martial arts forum, weaponry discussion group forum, etc, I would not have a criticism to make. My point is that to my understanding, we're in a forum dedicated to the discussion of vintage fashion, and discussion of the matters mentioned above seemed distastefully out of place. I was sharing my 2 cents. I don't want to distract from the discussion of 'vintage' beating implements any further, so if you wish to continue discussing the merits of my last post, please feel free to PM me.

[John in Covina]

The thread title is pretty self explanitory.

[erikb02809]

So is what I wrote. I'm getting tired of repeating myself - in a nutshell the thread went from talking about vintage saps (I've got no problem with that really) to talking about preferred methods of beating belligerent drunks with improvised devices, in the 'nads' among other places. You don't think that's out of place in a subforum called "General Attire and Accouterments" on a forum called "The Fedora Lounge"?!?!?!

Give me a break.

[Feraud]

We are not strictly vintage fashion but delve into all topics from the past like homes, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, aircraft, music, applicances, art, books, cameras, firearms, etc. Blackjacks, saps, switchblades are part of the era. Sometimes the conversation strays. It happens.

If you want to strictly chat style join us in the suits and outwear rooms. ;)

[erikb02809]

Before this devolves into a flame war, I'd just like to state I stand by what I wrote, and think that my stance is more than legitimate. My critique is of the appropriateness of the course of the discussion given the setting and membership, and not of the people participating in it. Said critique was made with benign intention, with some small hope that perhaps we'd benefit from leaving sand box stories of bravado and machisom out of further discussion, being that we are all mature gentlemen and ladies here at the FL.


John, if you want to question my criticism by insinuating I'm taking some sort of self-righteous moral stance, and/or am having some sort of intellectual difficulty reconciling the course of discussion with the the title of the thread, despite the fact we're in a fashion oriented forum, then so be it. Your behavior speaks for itself. I'll leave it at that. I will not further participate in such discussion, so say what you will. I'm through with this line of discussion.

[up196]

. . . we're in a forum dedicated to the discussion of vintage fashion . . .
It's refreshing to see that some items of clothing are still made the way they used to be.

Fechheimer uniform pants with sap pockets:

http://www.copshopetc.com/Portals/0/32291[1]_2.jpg

[erikb02809]

Sorry Feraud, I was typing my response while you must've been typing yours. I stand by my objection of discussion of strikes to the 'nads' and such, but defer to your judgment as Bartender, as I must. I'll leave this thread alone.

[erikb02809]

It's refreshing to see that some items of clothing are still made the way they used to be.

Fechheimer uniform pants with sap pockets:

http://www.copshopetc.com/Portals/0/32291[1]_2.jpg


touche sir. :)

[Feraud]

Sorry Feraud, I was typing my response while you must've been typing yours. I stand by my objection of discussion of strikes to the 'nads' and such, but defer to your judgment as Bartender, as I must. I'll leave this thread alone.
I am not speaking "officially" as a 'tender but wanted to clarify an important point. We do not strictly discuss clothing and sometimes the conversation strays.
Your comments may help steer the conversation back on course. ;)

[Chainsaw]

I've been more of a lurker (as opposed to a contributor) for the last couple of years, so forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds here...

But am I the only one who finds it distasteful that this thread has to some extent devolved from "hey, old timey blackjacks and saps, aren't those neat?" sorta thing to a bunch of vintage fashion enthusiasts talking about their preferred method of socking it to belligerent drunks?

I'm no pacifist, having been in my fair share of scuffles and also having boxed and trained in a few different martial arts. That said, I find the atmosphere in this thread to be beneath what I've come to expect reading on the Fedora Lounge.

I guess I can see how the path of discussion meandered in the direction it did, with the title of the thread and all, but this is a thread in a vintage fashion Njforum, in "General Attire & Accouterments". I think I may speak for more than just myself when I say that weighing the pros and cons of traditional Okinawan martial arts implements vs. electrical conduit vs. a role of quarters as weaponry, or "head shots" vs. "nad shots" is somewhat out of place in a less-than-dignified sort of way in such a forum dedicated to the ins and outs of vintage fashion.

It is not my intention to engage in ad hominem attacks, so I'll stop here, lest my words be interpreted as such. Just felt the need to share is all.

Hey, looks like I contributed [huh]


Erik, I remember this one time, I saved all my money from doing back breaking labour, when I was in high school. Me, my buddy Tony, and my buddy Alwin, go downtown for a walkabout.

We check out a few different places, then we end up at a martial arts store. I practice martial arts, and various things, and I decided to get some climbing spikes, that go on your hands so you can climb walls et-cetera. As I'm paying for them some dumb broad says, "your not going to use those things on someone are you?" I said to her "Honey, you in the wrong store if you got a problem with these"

On a lighter note, I'd love one of those black Jacks. 21's my favorite game!

[up196]

touche sir. :)
Obviously received in the manner intended!

[Colonel]

... We're on a vintage fashion forum...
Regardless of this little "sub thread", I'll mention that I discovered The Fedora Lounge while doing a Google search for a "Kelly Kettle" - a small kettle used to boil water using sticks, leaves, and other "stuff" picked up in the woods. That's about as far from "fashion" as it gets.

http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/kellyboil2.jpg

[Neophyte]

Regardless of this little "sub thread", I'll mention that I discovered The Fedora Lounge while doing a Google search for a "Kelly Kettle" - a small kettle used to boil water using sticks, leaves, and other "stuff" picked up in the woods. That's about as far from "fashion" as it gets.

http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/kellyboil2.jpg

lol

[HarpPlayerGene]

Picked this oldie from a local antique mall. $8. Its age has caused some of the coating to deteriorate allowing us to see the internal construction of cable wire.

I promise not to hit anyone in the 'nads, unless they are very fashionable vintage 'nads.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/GeneAntiques/Antique%20Sap/DSCN2720.jpg
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/GeneAntiques/Antique%20Sap/DSCN2723.jpg
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/GeneAntiques/Antique%20Sap/DSCN2724.jpg

[John in Covina]

Regardless of this little "sub thread", I'll mention that I discovered The Fedora Lounge while doing a Google search for a "Kelly Kettle" - a small kettle used to boil water using sticks, leaves, and other "stuff" picked up in the woods. That's about as far from "fashion" as it gets.

http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/kellyboil2.jpg


I think I saw these in a Wade and Garrett catalog.
When you use it to hit somebody is there suppoded to be fire coming out of it?

[John in Covina]

:offtopic: TRUE STORY: A long time ago I was looking for men's ties on ebay and somebody had a listing with a picture of an East German "Come-a-long" that the police used there. They had no idea what it was and had listed it as a tie bar and chain! :eusa_doh: I wrote them in the ask a question field to clear things up (from the Fashion & violence theme)

[Vintage lover]

I would be more interested in a sap as opposed to a baton. I prefer tools of self defense that you tuck into your waist band, and then forget about. I once bought a collapsible police baton only to realize that I couldn't carry it without it either being uncomfortable or indiscreet.

[Colonel]

When you use it to hit somebody is there supposed to be fire coming out of it?
I think the fire is part of the "Viking effect". When the bad guys see you coming at them with fire, they turn tail and run. Perfect ending - bad guys are gone and you walk away unharmed. The only downside is that slipping it back into your pocket without first letting it cool down can be a real bummer. I burned a nasty hole in my pocket the last time I did that.

[Undertow]

I think the fire is part of the "Viking effect". When the bad guys see you coming at them with fire, they turn tail and run. Perfect ending - bad guys are gone and you walk away unharmed. The only downside is that slipping it back into your pocket without first letting it cool down can be a real bummer. I burned a nasty hole in my pocket the last time I did that.

lol

[Mickey Caesar]

When someone mentioned a movie with George Raft making a sap out of a napkin and a salt shaker, it made me think. What other times is a blackjack or sap shown in a film? I can think of 3 right away There was one being used in "The Untouchables" by Sean Connery and by Alan Arkin in "Freebie and the Bean", and Harpo Marx had one in one of their movies, I think it was "Animal Crackers". Anybody else know of any?

[John in Covina]

Charles Bronson makes one out of a sock and something heavy in the movie "Death Wish" where Paul Kersey becomes a vigillantee pursuing criminals on the streets of NY after his wife and daughter are violently sexually assaulted.

[Vintage lover]

When someone mentioned a movie with George Raft making a sap out of a napkin and a salt shaker, it made me think. What other times is a blackjack or sap shown in a film? I can think of 3 right away There was one being used in "The Untouchables" by Sean Connery and by Alan Arkin in "Freebie and the Bean", and Harpo Marx had one in one of their movies, I think it was "Animal Crackers". Anybody else know of any?
Not quite a movie, but still on T.V. The usage starts at 4:25
kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Feraud]

If I remember correctly Sean Penn creates a sap type weapon out of soda cans and a sock. Stephen Segal used a billiard ball and a handtowel to great effect in one of his action films.

[Undertow]

Charles Bronson makes one out of a sock and something heavy in the movie "Death Wish" where Paul Kersey becomes a vigillantee pursuing criminals on the streets of NY after his wife and daughter are violently sexually assaulted.

I believe Chuck had a sock and some quarters.

[theinterchange]

My grandfather was [briefly] a private detective and then bounty hunter in the late 1950's to early 1960's. Shortly after my parents married, my dad had to go out of town for work, and grandpa gave mom his old blackjack. She still keeps it around the house to this day. I'll have to get it out and take a photo of it.

And my dad was given one of the more modern "stoppers", one of those extending metal rods... I can't remember what they're called. [huh]

Randy

[Mickey Caesar]

My grandfather was [briefly] a private detective and then bounty hunter in the late 1950's to early 1960's. Shortly after my parents married, my dad had to go out of town for work, and grandpa gave mom his old blackjack. She still keeps it around the house to this day. I'll have to get it out and take a photo of it.

And my dad was given one of the more modern "stoppers", one of those extending metal rods... I can't remember what they're called. [huh]

Randy
My dad had an old Navy nightstick he brought back from Korea and left it for my mom to protect her while he was working nights.

[matei]

The thread concerning shoulder holsters got me thinking about blackjack and saps. In times past, the blackjack or sap was as common a 'pocket implement' as a jackknife, among certain social circles. :cool2:

Does anyone know of current sources for traditional blackjacks, saps or brass knucks?

Hang around the courts long enough, the court officers confiscate a wide variety of these lo-tech weapons.

[John in Covina]

Hang around the courts long enough, the court officers confiscate a wide variety of these lo-tech weapons.

That's funny because you'd think that people would understand there are places you simply can't bring items to when visiting.

I went to the State building in LA- Ronald Regan Bldg where i had to empty my pockets and take off my belt to put thru the xray machine whille I went thru the metal detector gate. I missed my calculator and went thru 2X.

[Mickey Caesar]

I just joined this post, and, apparently, judging form the "where do I get . . ." questions, there's no one here from Chi or NY! Blackjacks and brass knuckles used ot be common in many Chinatown (NY) shops, and, while down in Orlando, FL a couple of months ago, I found them -- and switchblades -- in every flea market.

Some of the on-line knife stores have "paperwight" or "belt buckle" brass knuckles, as does eBay, but a good, OLD FASHIONED blackjack is hard to find! I shoulda bought the 1890s San Fransico Police blackjack I came across in an antique store in Connecticut!

Charlie
I just picked up a new blackjack at a flea market. It all shiny and new looking. Does anyone know how to give it an aged look.

[matei]

That's funny because you'd think that people would understand there are places you simply can't bring items to when visiting.

I went to the State building in LA- Ronald Regan Bldg where i had to empty my pockets and take off my belt to put thru the xray machine whille I went thru the metal detector gate. I missed my calculator and went thru 2X.

You would think that... :eusa_doh:

My father worked as a Court Officer for a time in NY. He would come home every day with a new story about how ignorant people can be of the rules. He was cleaning out some drawers, and came across a collection of brass knuckles, saps, knives etc - all things confiscated while on duty.

[John in Covina]

I just picked up a new blackjack at a flea market. It all shiny and new looking. Does anyone know how to give it an aged look.

If it's one with the leather outside, then you need to simulate use. You can spend a little time smacking a cloth covered board and scuffing it lightly with very fine grit sandpaper.

If it's black you can touch it up with some brown shoe polish, if it's brown use black to give it a difference of color to simulate patina. Then give it a little leather dressing once over.

[Mickey Caesar]

If it's one with the leather outside, then you need to simulate use. You can spend a little time smacking a cloth covered board and scuffing it lightly with very fine grit sandpaper.

If it's black you can touch it up with some brown shoe polish, if it's brown use black to give it a difference of color to simulate patina. Then give it a little leather dressing once over.
Ok I'll try that thanks.

[Mickey Caesar]

Not quite a movie, but still on T.V. The usage starts at 4:25
kQFKtI6gn9Y
I just saw another sap being used in a movie. It was in the begining of Airplane II, a group of attendants were hitting a patient in a hospital.:(

[Bob Smalser]

Boston Leather (a police equipment manufacturer) still makes high-quality saps in three sizes and either 2-ply or 4-ply.

http://www.bostonleather.com/products/impact_weapon

And Copsplus Police Supply is a convenient vendor.

http://www.copsplus.com/

Around 25 bucks.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/398161205.jpg

[Str8Jacket]

this one may be uncouth for this particular thread, but since it is dedicated to the classic less-lethals, I thought I'd pop this little gem in. I've heard of the roll of quarters, saps, slaps, and knuckle-dusters, but has anyone heard of the ubiquitous bicycle chain? My Grandpappy used to carry one of these things daily when he was in his youth. Who else has heard of this?

[amador]

Interesting thread. I seem to recall that Joe Brodie admits to sapping Owen Taylor in the Bogart movie The Big Sleep.

While I was growing up in South TX I was witness to a fight in Elementry school where one of the combatants pulled off his belt and used the heavy belt buckle to beat his opponent like a weighted whip, nasty. There was an urban myth at the time that some gangs were beating each other with 2X4's outfitted with nails for effect, never confirmed this.

My Grandfather showed me how to make what he called a "Macana" out of a piece of rope by a series of tightened slip knots and finishing with a loop. He told me he used it to drive cattle and to fight with. After we made one he hit me lightly with it on my leg. I decided that I would not mess with Papagrande.

There was the "Urban Myth" during basic training in the Army where a blanket patry was held for someone who was causing problems. Involved throwing a blanket over a guy so he would not be able to ID anyone and beating him with bars of soap in socks as a message that he better shape up. Never did confirm this either.

Anyone else heard of the Blanket Party?

[HodgePodge]

Interesting thread. I seem to recall that Joe Brodie admits to sapping Owen Taylor in the Bogart movie The Big Sleep.

While I was growing up in South TX I was witness to a fight in Elementry school where one of the combatants pulled off his belt and used the heavy belt buckle to beat his opponent like a weighted whip, nasty. There was an urban myth at the time that some gangs were beating each other with 2X4's outfitted with nails for effect, never confirmed this.


I've heard of big honkin' western buckles being used as impromptu brass knuckles (wind the belt around your hand til the buckle is at the front)



There was the "Urban Myth" during basic training in the Army where a blanket patry was held for someone who was causing problems. Involved throwing a blanket over a guy so he would not be able to ID anyone and beating him with bars of soap in socks as a message that he better shape up. Never did confirm this either.

Anyone else heard of the Blanket Party?

Only in Full Metal Jacket.

[amador]

I guess the possibility of a blanket party kept everybody going at 110%. Maybe its like the Saltpeter myth. I must be the only one that hasn't seen FMJ. Maybe Hollywood put the myth onscreen for dramatic effect, different thread.

[Fifty150]

First of all, most modern police departments now prohibit their officers from using such impact instruments. As a matter of practical liability, most have it written into their general orders where it details in great length specific prohibited weapons, and then go on to state that officers are only allowed to use specific issued weapons. I can remember when cops carried whatever gun they wanted. You would see guys with these giant, long barrel, 44 magnums like Dirty Harry. And most of these guys had them in low riding, swiveling, widow maker holsters that hung the gun down to their knees. Today, most departments require that you only carry the issued weapon so that if need be, you could borrow an extra magazine from your partner.

I've used almost every one of these impact instruments. The sap, to me, feels better than the black jack. The Pr-24 requires a lot more training and familiarity, which makes the straight baton a better choice. Expandable batons are okay. Brass knuckles just don't work for everyone's hands, since we all have different size hands. I've seen guys with batons that unscrewed into a pair of nunchaku, and they fall into the same category as the PR-24......most cops aren't martial arts experts.

I've seen some guys now wearing MMA gloves that protect the top of the hand and knuckles.
http://www.mmagearguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/century-ufc.jpg
My favorite over the years has been the sap glove. Leather gloves loaded with powdered lead in the knuckles.
http://stores.wholesalecentral.com/Images/XTAH2ZPYE_73IB2R3OW1L92VPT5AP7/0316155758653.jpg