Four major details

[Matt Deckard]

Four major details that modern tailors do not incorporate into their suit designs.

1. It is all about the armholes. The higher the armhole is to your armpit, the more maneuverable you will be in the suit. Vintage suits had high cut armholes and felt like a shirt when worn. Very comfy. Modern tailors go more for the drape than fit from my experiences, and make the armholes big enough for 5 arms.

2. Extra beltloop right next to the fly. This belt loop which may look out of place to the modern observer is very useful in keeping the buckle of the belt in place right above the fly. Todays trousers do not have this loop and the buckle tends to hover above and below the waist.

3. Diagonal stitched pleats. Vintage trouser pleats had stitching that went from the waistband to about a half inch downward into the pleat. This allowed the pleat to hold its shape part way down which helps keep the crease. Modern pleats are simply sewn into the waistband and given no such special stitch a care or thought.

4. Long zipper flys. High waisted pants need long fly openings, most modern makers make the opening on their low waisted pants the same length as the opening on their high waisted pants. Very inconvenient.

[STHill]

Excellent information, Matt. Four very simple touches that make a world of difference.

[Matt Deckard]

Just a bit of a diatribe... Saw the new GQ article about how to buy a suit and thought I'd say this

In the article they are focussing on what is now rather than what is timeless. I just don't like the guise of saying it's timeless. I'm sure someone out there right now is trying to grip his fingers under the edge of his jacket thinking the suit is the wrong length for him even if it looks perfectly well proportioned.

They don't seem to go as in depth, or have the balance sense that you read in old issues of Esquire from the 30's. I'm also not a fan of the super thin and tall models being used as reference for all body types. They may talk about other body types once in a while, though the young American male looking for a suit isn't always going to be built like an olympic swimmer.

I learned alot as I lost 70 pounds, and one of those things is that different cuts look better on different weights. The other thing is that Large modern armholes are all up and down the size scale when it comes to off the rack. Many Custom shops don't take an armhole measurement any longer... they go with a ratio. A ratio that is calculated too big.

[Tomasso]

I'm sure someone out there right now is trying to grip his fingers under the edge of his jacket thinking the suit is the wrong length for him even if it looks perfectly well proportioned.


The fact that this item made it to print illustrates that GQ is not a reliable source of information concerning menswear.

[Matt Deckard]

Perhaps not relaible for style and fit, though they are the place to go if you are wanting to find the Puma pullover that works best with the Air Jordan's.

They have guys that work there and wear suits (I hope).

[Clara Rose]

What would you consider a good source for suit-purchasing advice? I have a few friends that are about to head out into the business world, and although I can advise them on what looks good, I am not as aware of how to judge suit construction and tailoring.
Alternatively, if anyone knows of a good place to buy quality suits in the Chicago area (or Detroit or St. Louis-- anywhere in that swath of the Midwest) I would love to pass that information on. Thank you.

[Matt Deckard]

It would be Hellauseful if there were good tailors around who just knew how to construct a suit.

Chicago is the home of Oxxford suits, one of the premiere houses for tailoring in the US.

Their garments are very expensive. The other end of the spectrum is the Banana Republic suit. Of the lowere end makers, they have a pretty stout construction and classic details.

As for a guide to buying a suit that isn't misinforming. Well... I'l take a crack at that and see what I can have up in the next day or so. I'm not an expert, I know what i see and what i think looks nice. there are some details that your man should keep in mind when looking for a suit that looks good on his body.

[Senator Jack]

Matt, if I may, I'd like to add one more to that list:

5. Droploops. While not related to fit, I believe them important for composition, framing, and aesthetics. The extra 1/4" or so of material above the belt precludes the belt from becoming the line of demarcation between trousers and shirt.

Regards,

Senator Jack

[Clara Rose]

Those Oxxford suits are gorgeous!! I think they may be a bit pricy for these guys though...
They're all finishing law school and about to head of to major firms, so while they will have a decent budget, I think they'll already be in sticker shock over the cost of good clothes in general. Unfortunately, they still feel fashionable dressing consists of old jeans, college fraternity t-shirts and a baseball cap. One of my friends and I have promised to take them shopping in Chicago and help them pick out some basics so they have a functional work and casual wardrobe. Any suggestions are always helpful.

[Marc Chevalier]

Unfortunately, they still feel fashionable dressing consists of old jeans, college fraternity t-shirts and a baseball cap.
Funny ... when my dad attended law school (1963-'66), all the students had to wear jackets and ties, or preferably suits, to their classes. And this was at Columbia University in N.Y., one of that era's most liberal schools!

.

[Tony in Tarzana]

And another armhole gripe. The armholes on my black suit (I wore it on the Gamble House tour) are big enough to drive a Packard through, and yet the sleeves are tight around my arms! OK, I'm big, but I'm no bodybuilder! What gives?

[Clara Rose]

I do believe they dress a little nicer for class, but certainly not in suits (although that would be wonderful).
I actually found an interesting website on men's dressing:
http://www.jderickson.com/clothing/index.html

[Feraud]

I'm sure someone out there right now is trying to grip his fingers under the edge of his jacket thinking the suit is the wrong length for him even if it looks perfectly well proportioned.
Matt, Can you expand on this comment a bit? Is this to mean gripping the under edge of the jacket is wrong because the length should be more, less, or either depending on the suit and person?

Thanks.

[Matt Deckard]

It is all a matter of balance. Your arms may reach past or they may not. That doesn't matter. What matters is that the overall look is balanced. There is no steadfast rule that will make you look right. We are all shaped differently. A good tailor will make the jacket length proportional to you regardless of how far down your arms extend in comparison to the jacket.

Make sense?

[Feraud]

It is all a matter of balance. Your arms may reach past or they may not. That doesn't matter. What matters is that the overall look is balanced. There is no steadfast rule that will make you look right. We are all shaped differently. A good tailor will make the jacket length proportional to you regardless of how far down your arms extend in comparison to the jacket.

Make sense? Perfect sense. Thank you!

[Tomasso]

......should be the #1 priority in choosing jacket length.

There's also an often used method to determine proper length but it's not always applicable as physiques vary from person to person. It is to measure from the floor up to the collar seam and divide in half, that point being the jacket length.

[Senator Jack]

Being that torsos come in all sorts of lengths, proportionate and disproportionate to overall height, I'm not much for a mathematical angle. I think the only way for any man to buy the correct length jacket is to try on a lot of them, and then when he's done trying them on, try on twice as many more. I understand not everyone has an eye for composition, but I do believe it is something one can learn.

My perfect length is 30.5" measured from collar hem but I can go 1" either way. More than that is too short or too long, and I suspect most men will have the same problem. I know some collar backs are going to be wide and some narrow, but I've found this the best place to measure from, as the hem of the collar is where it actually rides at back of neck.

All men should know their range, (should know all their measurements, in fact) especially if the wallet opens all too easily for a great looking suit. (and that goes double for an sight-unseen online purchase) I've brought home too many 29" suits only to have to sell them 6 months later.

Matt, is there a link for this GQ finger-measuring link? I'd like to read this nonsense.

Regards,


Senator Jack

[Matt Deckard]

http://men.style.com/gq/fashion/landing?id=content_4800

They have a model in some pretty good looking suits... though he's a model.

[Senator Jack]

Right away I see that the jacket for dude #4 is too short. But then, they're saying that's the style. Funny how they say the ventless jacket is 1986, yet they're promoting a short-jacketed look that's going to say 2006 in 2008. Do these clods re-read their own copy?

[Tomasso]

I think the only way for any man to buy the correct length jacket is to try on a lot of them, and then when he's done trying them on, try on twice as many more..

A good tailor can determine proper length in 30 seconds.




measured from collar hem I know some collar backs are going to be wide and some narrow, but I've found this the best place to measure from, as the hem of the collar is where it actually rides at back of neck.

Are you speaking of the top of the collar or the collar seam? Tailors use the seam because the measurement will not change no matter how high the collar is cut.

[Senator Jack]

Yes, that's the seam I go by. I learned to take measurements by trial and error and not by tailoring. For instance, when I buy a vintage suit or jacket online, I have the seller measure the side seam from armpit to hem, just so I know how high that armhole is going to be. When I've been measured for a suit, I've asked tailors to take this measurement, but they thought me mad. It appears to me it would be a very important measurement (as with shirts) so there would be no guesswork.

Let's forget about tailors for a moment anyway, because if you read the GQ article, you'll see they're talking about walking into a place like Barney's where you may see a tailor after you agree to buy the suit. The article is right in that regards - the salesman will tell you anything - and I'm sure that's happened to all of us. Secondly, how many good tailors are really out there? Especially in a place like Barney's? They're there to take up cuffs and let out trousers and that's about it. They get paid whether you look good or not.

My limited knowledge was acquired only after years of buying vintage, and I'm still learning. In fact, Hem Jones just posted a picture of me in the Event forum and I can see I have to take up the sleeves on a recent acquisition. Indeed, I had thought the jacket a bit too long when I bought it (my wallet opens far too easily for a great suit) but after seeing the picture I think the length is fine. This is something else I have to do, take more pictures of myself in various rigouts.

Regards,

Senator Jack

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

2. Extra beltloop right next to the fly. This belt loop which may look out of place to the modern observer is very useful in keeping the buckle of the belt in place right above the fly.

Some trousers have (had?) a smaller loop for the buckle's pin. This keeps the buckle in place not only vertically, but also horizontally.

Anyone know about when those came into use?

[Tomasso]

Anyone know about when those came into use?

I first began noticing the belt prong loop in the 1980's, during the Italian sartorial invasion of America. I'm sure our vintage aficionados will have some info.

[JamesT1]

I believe Brooks Brothers has some suits (the golden fleece) that have the loop to keep the belt buckle in place; when they started this, I have no idea.

Personally I prefer buttons sewn in for braces, as it seems to give a cleaner look.

Another item that is rarely seen anymore: reverse single pleats. Actually, since this was based on a GQ article, pleats in general. It seems to me that GQ has made it their mission to denounce pleats.

James

[Senator Jack]

Of course they made it their mission to denounce pleats -just as the industry made it its mission to denounce flat front pants in the 80s. Trying to find new flat-fronts in the 80s was impossible. Now that's all we're seeing.

GQ and Esquire survive by relying on the short-term memory of the public.

Regards,

Senator Jack

[BegintheBeguine]

:rage: And when those zippers break, it is heck trying to insert a replacement. The fly area is so short there's no room to work.

[JamesT1]

That is why I prefer wearing and working with button fly trousers.

James

[Baron Kurtz]

Somehow i'd never come across this thread before. Clarification required.

What are we talking about as "modern tailors"? My tailor in Scotland incorporates high armholes. Every tailor-made suit i've seen has had the armholes requested by the customer. (Generally high because that's what tailors do - they understand.) The high armhole thing i've always thought was a problem of modern off the rack and MTM type suitmakers. Bespoke has always been high, unless requested otherwise.

I don't wear belts, so i don't notice the vagaries of belt loop positioning etc. But i recall that at least some of my vintage off the rack trousers do not bear the extra belt loop.

If the trousers are high waisted, i would be stunned if a bespoke tailor did not put in a long zip.

I just hope that members are not dissuaded from going down the bespoke route as a result of this thread, because i don't think we're talking about bespoke tailors.

bk

[JamesT1]

I assumed it was generally understood that bespoke tailors do such things as high arm holes and such. I think the comments were based more on alteration tailors and mtm suits.

James

[Baron Kurtz]

our assumptions agree ...

welcome to el FLounge, by the way.

bk

[Marc Chevalier]

Bespoke tailors in the UK differ from their colleagues across the pond. Here in the U.S.A., most custom tailors seem to have a penchant for lower armholes. Only a few aging, diehard Italian tailors (and some younger "retro rebels" who've served as apprentices) still do higher armholes and waists.

.

[JamesT1]

our assumptions agree ...

welcome to el FLounge, by the way.

bk

Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.

James

[Matt Deckard]

That is why I prefer wearing and working with button fly trousers.

James

The button fly is double edged. Takes a long time to button the fly when guys are behind you watching thinking... what is he doing...

I prefer the zipper, though the vintage ones tend to freeze up. Not good when you are at a restaurant with a lady and can't leave the restroom until you get a pair of pliars brought to you. Trust me it's happened.

[Mr. 'H']

LOL lol

This "freezing" kinda happens to me with the pair of '40s cream pants I bought in Pasadena. I wear them a lot when going out to restaurants etc....

[matei]

Some trousers have (had?) a smaller loop for the buckle's pin. This keeps the buckle in place not only vertically, but also horizontally.


All my suit trousers have these little loops; however they aren't so long that I can really use them. In theory they would be nice, but methinks me belts are too big - too "manly".

[scotrace]

My grandfather used to occasionally rub a small block of paraffin wax over the teeth of zippers to keep them free. I do this now and then today.


The button fly is double edged. Takes a long time to button the fly when guys are behind you watching thinking... what is he doing...

I prefer the zipper, though the vintage ones tend to freeze up. Not good when you are at a restaurant with a lady and can't leave the restroom until you get a pair of pliars brought to you. Trust me it's happened.

[Matt Deckard]

Wax ay... I'll have to try that.

[Boodles]

Out in the sticks (Vietnam) I have pressed the side of a candle into service to free up a sticky zipper. Perhaps the paraffin is the better choice when you have the luxury but for me the candle is more likely to be close at hand than is a block of paraffin.

My grandfather used to occasionally rub a small block of paraffin wax over the teeth of zippers to keep them free. I do this now and then today.

[Geesie]

Of course they made it their mission to denounce pleats -just as the industry made it its mission to denounce flat front pants in the 80s. Trying to find new flat-fronts in the 80s was impossible. Now that's all we're seeing.

GQ and Esquire survive by relying on the short-term memory of the public.

Regards,

Senator Jack

Though I should mention in GQ's favor that their style columnist is generally very good. He's flat-out contradicted a lot of the "what's hot this week" stuff that the rest of the rag puts forth. For example, he likes pleats and thinks that dinner jackets should only come in black, midnight, and ivory.

[Tomasso]

Some trousers have (had?) a smaller loop for the buckle's pin. This keeps the buckle in place not only vertically, but also horizontally.
For visual reference:



http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/Shoes023.jpg

[scotrace]

Thanks for that, Tomasso. I've never seen that before (and couldn't visualize what it was).

[MrBern]

For visual reference:



http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/tmgco/Shoes023.jpg

Did we come up with a date for this loop?
Ive definitely seen them on `65 BrooksBros suits...

[_RAGNAR_]

Wax ay... I'll have to try that.

yes like leather care, things like zipper care have died off. Yes to wax on zippers, the metal teeth, like all metal to metal movement require lube. Wax is the proper lube that will not bleed into the clothing.

[_RAGNAR_]

I like the belt buckle holder. pretty neat. Learned something new today.

[Orgetorix]

Did we come up with a date for this loop?
Ive definitely seen them on `65 BrooksBros suits...

I don't think they're a very useful feature for dating something. I've seen them on '30s trousers, and they are made today as well.

[Matt Deckard]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1124.snc4/148603_456956023810_642563810_5729790_902071_n.jpg

[Jingo Mastapone]

That author of that article lost my respect when he declared that you should never ever wear a vest with your tuxedo and that a long tie (business? four-in-hand?) is ok to wear with it.