Rough-Outs Dubbing.

[MudInYerEye]

I have a pair of rough-outs from WPG, and I'd like to maintain them as well as possible. Many times I've heard mention of dubbing applied to the boots. What exactly was this dubbing? Is it similar to mink oil? Also, what is the desired finish one hopes to achieve from use of the dubbing? Should the suede be slicked down flat, or just mildly coated? Any help regarding this matter would be greatly appreciated.

[Angelicious]

Many times I've heard mention of dubbing applied to the boots.
Are you sure you don't mean "dubbin"? :)

Dubbin is a sort of shoe wax/polish, available in neutral, pale or dark brown. It's more like a gummy light wax than that solid stuff they sell as shoe polish now. (Lets leave that silly stuff in the plastic bottle with the sponge on top out of it, shall we? :p ) I spent a goodly portion of my childhood cursing the stuff. ;)

If you can't buy it locally, try these Australian sites:
oilskin.com (http://www.oilskin.com/ca01.html)
Murphy Whips (http://www.murphywhips.com/857Dubbin125g.html)

If you're not keen on shipping from Australia, you could try a local shop that stocks Dr. Marten's boots. Their store variation is not as good as "real" Dubbin(TM), but it should work.

And here's a humourous(?) link for the Serious Dubbin Worshipper (http://www.dubbin.com/). :P

Hope that helps! :)

[MudInYerEye]

Angelicious, you're absolutely right. Dubbin is what I was referring to, not dubbing.

[Angelicious]

I notice you're talking about putting it on suede...

I've not done that before; in fact I've generally been told not to do anything to suede shoes. [huh] Did you get that from stories of the time? Waproo (the makers of Dubbin) suggest glycerine soap to clean suede. But it seems strange to me to have hard-worn workboots in suede, and then have to go all airy-fairy on the cleaning products... Can you ref me the statement about dubbin with boots? I'm confused/curious now...

Here's what they have to say on boots, anyway... Click the kick: :kick: (http://www.waproo.com.au/boots.htm)

[Alan Eardley]

Hold on! I'm not sure infantry used dubbin on roughout boots in WW2. I think they used the same polish as on the leather service service boot that preceded them in order to make them more waterproof. That's what some knowledgeable re-enactors I have spoken to tell me. Certainly some original RO boots I have seen have had brown polish applied to them in the past. I'm not sure a 1944-5 US infantyman would have aceess to dubbin. Dubbin (in the UK everyone over 50 hates dubbin thruogh childhood experience) would achieve the waterproofing same effect as polish, but would look very different. But they're your boots...do as you please.

[PADDY]

Having to Dubbin up my rugby boots to soften them and weatherproof them! Also I was in the Army Cadets at school, and my work boots had to have dubbin on them too. The smell of Dubbin just takes me back to those days...

[MudInYerEye]

I'm a bit confused here. I'm not a re-enactor or even a lay authority on the subject the mantainence of rough-outs, but I could swear I've heard of dubbin or something like it being applied these boots. Applying anything (dubbin or polish) to suede sounds strange to me too, but there you go. Perhaps this can all be attributed to an acid flashback or something.

[Angelicious]

I'm a bit confused here. I'm not a re-enactor or even a lay authority on the subject the mantainence of rough-outs
Me neither. :)

My experience of dubbin relates solely to embarrassing school shoes (I had "sensible" leather, while my friends had cool sneakers and pretty dress shoes!) and reading the newspaper underneath my shoes while I polished them. :p

Here is part of an equipment usage survey done on American Soldiers in 1944:


Q.20A. HAVE YOU EVER USED DUBBIN ON YOUR SHOES OR BOOTS*

R. COL. 17.

201 1. YES, SEVERAL TIMES
125 2. YES, A FEW TIMES
62 3. NO, NEVER
14 0. NO ANSWER


ROPER CENTER - AMS160B PAGE 25

Q.20B. HOW WELL DOES THE DUBBIN WORK IN SOFTENING AND
WATERPROOFING THE LEATHER*

R. COL. 18.

84 1. IT IS VERY GOOD
193 2. IT IS FAIR
64 3. IT IS POOR
61 0. NO ANSWER

X. QUESTION 20C NOT CODED.

Q.20C. IF YOU HAVE FOUND A PARTICULARLY GOOD WAY OF PUTTING
DUBBIN ON LEATHER, PLEASE TELL ABOUT IT HERE:

Nothing about the type of boots though. :p


http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/PrsnlHlthMsrs/chapter3.htm

Dubbin

The use of dubbin for shoes is a form of impregnation. The procedure was important medically only in that the dubbin allegedly waterproofed shoes and improved their wearing qualities and comfort, and aided in protection against cold injury. Dubbins containing antivesicant impregnates were used for protection against chemical warfare agents. Based on complaints from the field that dubbin makes shoes colder in the cold and hotter in the heat, a series of laboratory tests were made in which it was shown that dubbin did not significantly affect the thermal insulation of leather, but did reduce porosity. Dubbin was ineffective in improving the performance of shoes in protection against cold injury.145 Dubbins containing impregnates were overrated and a series of tests by the National Bureau of Standards revealed that there was little difference between the impregnated and unimpregnated dubbins in their ability to protect against vesicant agents.146

Since there was considerable demand for dubbin, a decision was made late in 1943 to issue both types indiscriminately for normal use. Development of a new and improved dubbin impregnate against chemical warfare agents was initiated.147

Sooo... From the sounds of it, Dubbin was considered a protective coating in terms of preventing footrot, extremes of temperature, and possible exposure to chemical agents. It's quite possible that aesthetics were ignored, and Dubbin was applied to suede boots! :) Maybe not an acid flashback after all, Mud.

[Kowaco]

I have a can of military Dubbing

[Sgt Brown]

"Dubbin" is, I believe, a Brit term. Dubbing (Yes, with the "g") was standard GI issue and application to their rough-outs was one of the tasks a new recruit was required to complete ASAP. Rough-outs are NOT suede. Suede is leather that has been split and then sanded to give a very uniformly coarse texture. Rough-out leather, as used in USGI boots, simply is leather turned inside-out. Look at a pair of rough-outs and you will often find they are smooth leather on the inside.

USGI issue dubbing was a mixture of beeswax and other oils and waxes designed to waterproof leather. A modern equivalent can be found in shoe repair and leather shops under the name "Snow Seal". Just like back then, it is wise - if not vital - that you get a coat or two or three on your new boots to waterproof and protect them. How much? Ask your DI and he will tell you, "Till they don't leak."

I have heard of meathead (I'm being nice.) officers who didn't care that their men were only issued rough-outs and required them to spitshine their boots just like garrison shoes back home. How? I guess it took a LOT of wax driven into the leather with the backside of a spoon as a polishing device.

Anyhow, WPG rough-outs? Get a jar of Snow Seal. Apply a good coating with an old toothbrush. Put em out in the sun to heat the dubbing so it soaks into the leather. Re-coat and bake. Re-coat and bake. And if you are REALLY bored, get out that mess kit spoon!

Tom

[MPicciotto]

http://www.90thidpg.us/Equipment/Projects/Dubbing/index.html

That might help.

Matt

[1961MJS]

Hi

I ordered the dubbin off amazon. The directions in the 90th's website worked well for me.

Later

[Smithy]

Like Paddy I have memories of rubbing dubbin on rugby boots and the old leather rugby balls to protect and waterproof them. And also like Paddy the smell conjures up memories of drizzly winters' days and school rugby.

[ukali1066]

The German troops did it to their lace up rough out ankle boots too

[filfoster]

The German troops did it to their lace up rough out ankle boots too
Yes. If you go to some of the better reenactor kit sites like www.atthefront.com
you'll see the GI and German boots in the 'rough out' state and a detailed discussion of how to make them look authentic by applying blacking, polish, dubbin or 'what have you', as 'the Dude' says.

[filfoster]

"Dubbin" is, I believe, a Brit term. Dubbing (Yes, with the "g") was standard GI issue and application to their rough-outs was one of the tasks a new recruit was required to complete ASAP. Rough-outs are NOT suede. USGI issue dubbing was a mixture of beeswax and other oils and waxes designed to waterproof leather. A modern equivalent can be found in shoe repair and leather shops under the name "Snow Seal". Just like back then, it is wise - if not vital - that you get a coat or two or three on your new boots to waterproof and protect them. Anyhow, WPG rough-outs? Get a jar of Snow Seal. Apply a good coating with an old toothbrush. Put em out in the sun to heat the dubbing so it soaks into the leather. Re-coat and bake. Re-coat and bake. And if you are REALLY bored, get out that mess kit spoon!

Tom

I have just ordered a pair each of roughout boondockers (ATF) and GI service boots (US Equipage) and will use this method, the Sno-seal. This seems to be the general consensus from the online searches for how to do this. I also like the suggestion of using a razor or razor blade to 'shave' the excess nap. That should aid the progress to a good 'broken in' look and eventual polish.

[obxgyrene]

http://www.90thidpg.us/Equipment/Projects/Dubbing/index.html

That might help.

Matt

Thanks for posting that link. That information is was exactly what I was looking for.

[Renault]

Thanks for posting that link. That information is was exactly what I was looking for.

I've used the 90thID website procedure as mentioned above on several pair of roughouts with excellent success! Everytime I come in from an event I go ahead and give them a good polish with regular kiwi brand brown boot polish before sticking them away. They shine like slick leather now!!!!!

Renault

[obxgyrene]

Yea, I can't wait to try it. That guy on the 90thID summed up my feelings with his statement "I think it's bul*****when I see reenactors with rough-out boots that are not dubbed..."

All the boots I have seen were dark in color, not the natural leather color it comes in. I've asked many of my WW-II friends exactly how they did it, and none could recall. Many however did recall using the top of an opened bottle of Coca-cola to smooth the rough side of the leather. They also told me that in boot camp they wore their boondockers in the shower a number of times, then let them dry on their feet to their boots would fit their feet exactly.

[Renault]

I also found no need to try to shave the outside of the boot. They smoothed out quite nicely after several polishings! Just use 'em, amd wear 'em!!!!!

Renault

[Marv]

All the boots I have seen were dark in color, not the natural leather color it comes in. I've asked many of my WW-II friends exactly how they did it, and none could recall. Many however did recall using the top of an opened bottle of Coca-cola to smooth the rough side of the leather. They also told me that in boot camp they wore their boondockers in the shower a number of times, then let them dry on their feet to their boots would fit their feet exactly.[/QUOTE]

As far as I am aware and from what I have read, USMC didn't dub their boondockers and just wore them bare due to the hot pacific climate they want the water and sweat to soak through the leather allowing the feet to dry.

Not sure if there is any truth in this........

[1961MJS]

Hi

Dad's roughouts from Fiji, Noumea, Wallis Island, and Guadalcanal (in 1945) look just like my dubbed ones. I think that one of the reasons no one remembers dubbing them is that it isn't either hard or particularly distasteful compared to the rest of boot camp and the war in general.

Later

[obxgyrene]

As far as I am aware and from what I have read, USMC didn't dub their boondockers and just wore them bare due to the hot pacific climate they want the water and sweat to soak through the leather allowing the feet to dry.

Not sure if there is any truth in this........

I think it really depended on what unit you were with, and perhaps a specific point in time. The Commandant of the Marine Corps issued the following guidance:

15 March 1944

LETTER OF INSTRUCTION NO. 682

To: All Commanding Officers

Subject: Shoes, Field; Preservation of

1. Information has been received indicating that there is a widespread reluctance on the part of enlisted personnel to use dubbing on field shoes. This reluctance is based on the fact that the use of dubbing tends to increase foot perspiration. While such is the case, if dubbing is properly applied heating of the feet can be reduced, and the results accomplished by making a weather resistant leather offset the discomfort and danger of footsores. The regular application of dubbing to service shoes conserves their component leathers and thus prolongs the life of the shoes. The most efficient use of dubbing is obtained through frequent light applications well rubbed into the leather. The highly critical leather situation is such that steps must be taken toward the preservation of field shoes. It is, therefore, directed that instructions be issued requiring that dubbing be applied once per week to field shoes of all personnel operating in temperate climates, and twice per week (more if deemed necessary) when operating under wet or extremely dry conditions. Field shoes will not be polished.

A. A. VANDEGRIFT

[obxgyrene]

Dad's roughouts from Fiji, Noumea, Wallis Island, and Guadalcanal (in 1945) look just like my dubbed ones.

I just completed the dubbing process on my boondockers and I agree 100-percent with your statement. Although polish was not supposed to be used on field shoes, I applied some cordovan very lightly after dubbing them and they came out looking like the real mac-coy. The dubbing process also seemed to have made the leather more supple which to me means they are more comfortable to wear.

[J.W.]

We definitely need a thread with pictures of all our roughouts - before and after waterproofing them...

[Stanley Doble]

Dubbing describes the act of applying grease or similar substance to shoes. Dubbing is also used as a name for the substance. Dubbin is a brand name.

[Edward]

I'm a bit confused here. I'm not a re-enactor or even a lay authority on the subject the mantainence of rough-outs, but I could swear I've heard of dubbin or something like it being applied these boots. Applying anything (dubbin or polish) to suede sounds strange to me too, but there you go. Perhaps this can all be attributed to an acid flashback or something.


All the boots I have seen were dark in color, not the natural leather color it comes in. I've asked many of my WW-II friends exactly how they did it, and none could recall. Many however did recall using the top of an opened bottle of Coca-cola to smooth the rough side of the leather. They also told me that in boot camp they wore their boondockers in the shower a number of times, then let them dry on their feet to their boots would fit their feet exactly.

I have a pair of CAT boots that are roughouts. I treated them with dubbin to avoid staining. This darkened them from a honey to a tan colour. They will still stain much more easily than regular leather, but I like the look.