BATTLE OF BRITAIN (1940) - Respecting THE FEW.

[MDFrench]

To all of the fine men and women here,

Today is an important day that people need to recognize, so let me take a moment to share this with you.

Today is September 15. Here in the U.S., it doesn't mean much, but it should. Great Britain marks September 15 as Battle of Britain Day, and on this day in 1940 in the skies over London, an aerial siege that had gone on for over two months was finally broken.

As Americans, we still bask in the glory of WWII and remember the sacrifices of our brave soldiers at Pearl Harbor, Omaha Beach, Iwo Jima, and in the skies over Europe in the Flying Fortresses. However, few Americans know that before December 7, 1940, the United States was strictly neutral and isolationist.

Europe was begging for help, literally being overrun by the darkest evil ever manifested in man. The Nazis, it seemed, could not be stopped. As Poland, Belgium, and Holland fell and the French surrendered, one tiny island nation found itself alone with its back to the sea, the last hold-out against Hitler's armies.

They begged for help. The U.S. sent supplies, but remained isolationist in the grand scheme. Britain was alone, with a devastated army swimming back from Dunkirk, and a badly outnumbered group of Royal Air Force pilots being the only line of defense against the still advancing Luftwaffe. As many have dubbed it, this was history's narrowest margin.

These brave pilots, whom Winston Churchill dubbed "the Few," flew day and night against the seemingly endless Nazi bombers and fighters. In Hurricanes and Spitfires, they held the line, but just barely - many dying in the skies or maimed beyond recognition. These were men defending their homes, with no thought of running. Of course, there was no where to run to, except the Atlantic.

These pilots' sacrifices effectively stopped Hitler's unstoppable advance. They faced daunting odds, often 4 to 1, but they held their ground. Were it not for them, D-Day might never have been, nor North Africa, for there would have been no effective staging ground to launch a counterattack against Fortress Europe.

Incidentally, there were 7 documented Americans who flew in the Battle of Britain with the RAF. These men defied the U.S. government's threat of imprisonment and fines for the greater good. Yes, the U.S. made it illegal to join foreign armies during it's neutrality policy, but these men answered the call anyway, the majority of them dying before Pearl Harbor.

In short, the RAF pilots who flew and died in The Battle of Britain gave freedom a slim chance of succeeding - they carved out hope with their blood. Take a moment on September 15 to remember these men, not just the 7 Americans (and the many other Yanks who claimed to be Canadian that we will never truly know) but every - single - pilot who died so the world might live.

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. " - Winston Churchill

Thanks for reading this,
Mike French (no relation to the nation)

[PADDY]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Paddy_Middleton/Leonard.jpg

A NICE piece Mike. It's sad to think that most folk out there on the streets of Great Britain, will have no knowledge of the significance of this day, and as time goes by, those of us who do hold a torch, will fade away.
Names that put the GREAT into BRITAIN, are now only remembered on the dusty and tattered regimental flags that hang in less frequented churches around the country. Names like Sevastavol; Waterloo; Trafalgar; Mafeking; Calcutta; Ypres; Amiens; Somme; Tobruk; Bangalore; Alamein; Goose Green; Two Sisters; Cross Maglen; ...etc, are all battle honours of one kind and another that the public quickly forget and generations fail to pass onto their kin to be proud of.
Sadly, it will, no doubt be similar with our cousins across the pond in the US. Ask your average man/woman in the street the significance of names like ALAMO; LEXINGTON; BUNKER HILL; SARATOGA; KINGS MOUNTAIN; FREDERICKSBURG; BALTIMORE 1812; GETTYSBURG; GUADACANAL; MIDWAY; OKINAWA; BASTOGNE; KOREA; VIETNAM & TET OFFENSIVE; GRENADA; CUBA (Bay of Pigs)...and the list goes on.
If we forget our heritage and what we have fought for, and the ideals we have laid down lives for, where does that leave us?

[Jake]

Although I wasn't aware that there was a day set aside for remembering the Battle of Britain. Im delighted to hear that there is. I hope that many of your countrymen continue to carry the torch of remembering what was accomplished by those few brave souls. Here's to the heros of the past and future. :cheers1:

[Mycroft]

There is a guy at work who acually was in the Battle of Britin as a Spitfire Pilot, and man the stories he tells us, are amazing sometimes. I propse a toast to those brave "Few":cheers1:

[jake431]

The Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago has a Spitfire hanging from the ceiling (Improbably being tailed by a Stuka) that flew in the Battle of Britain. I love seeing it hang from the ceiling, but it seems like a great opportunity to restore so old a Spitfire is being missed. I've seen a BF-109E fly; wouldn't it be great to see the two of them go at it, Battle of Britain style? Maybe someday...

It's true the very often the Battle of Britain gets little attention here in the US, but I gladly offer my respects to those who flew against such daunting odds.

-Jake

[MikeyB17]

Sadly, it seems most people today know next to nothing about what went on in 1940, and what these men did for us. Here's to 'em. Thanks, boys.

[Alan Eardley]

I used to attend the same school that Reginald Mitchell (designer of the Spifire) went to, and we used to have our own Battle of Britain Day treat - we used to line up on the playing field and a Spitfire would do some aerobatics and buzz the field at an altitude that would never be allowed nowadays. In my imagination can still hear the deafening snarl of the Griffon or Merlin and feel the propwash. That was the mid 1950s. It's interesting to note that Spifires last saw action in Malaya in 1954.

I can imagine some PO who'd been flying a desk since the end of the war relishing being given the chance to go and stir up some kids at a school in Stoke-on-Trent. Wonderful!

[MDFrench]

Good to hear from all of you. Paddy and MikeyB17, I am very envious that you are both still living in what I consider to be the most wonderful country on Earth. I grew up in Weybridge, Surrey where 609 Squadron met the first wave of Luftwaffe on Sept. 15 at around 11:15 a.m. I was an adolescent, lived there for four very formative years (12-15), but I have carried Britain with me ever since. I consider it my first home.

I hope one day I can return permanently and spend the rest of my days at my old haunts: Bassingbourn, Duxford, Hendon and the Temple Church.

If anyone of you is up near Bassingbourn anytime soon, could someone stop by the Air Tower museum and see if my museum display is still there? It was my Eagle Scout service project in the winter of 1993 for the 50th anniversary of the Memphis Belle's tour of duty completion.

Thanks all,
Mike

[Zemke Fan]

Reading "Fighter Boys" by Patrick Bishop right now and I am staggered by the number of RAF pilots that were killed either in 1940 or before the end of hostilities in 1945. I will find the precise statistic, but it was something like two-thirds KIA. Incredible. The outcome would have been much different I think if these brave lads hadn't sacrificed their all. A moment of silence for these and all our other heroes...

[Patrick]

Got to love the British for their courge and tenacity that was required to overcome such overwhelming odds under the leadership of Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding. Also saddened by how he was treated afterwards for his efforts. Politics as usual, even then under those circumstances.

Think I'll pop my BoB DVD in after I log off to commenorate the event. I'm already hearing the Merlin backfire as the Hurricane does the victory role in the opening scene. Way, way cool!
TAKKA, TAKKA, TAKKA, TAKKA, TAKKA!! (Sorry, didn't mean to get carried away.)

P.

[MDFrench]

Hey all,

I know this might need to be in the movies section, but given the WWII historic bend to this post, I think it's better suited with the war buffs. I was watching one of my favorite films the other day, Battle of Britain, and started thinking what a shame it is that most people don't watch older movies or read history books and therefore will likely never know about these colossally important events unless a new movie comes to theaters about it.

Now, most modern remakes have tanked. "Pearl Harbour" is no "Tora Tora Tora," and for all of its D-Day scene infamy and aesthetic accuracy, Saving Private Ryan lacks the blow-by-blow historic attention of "The Longest Day," but nevertheless I live in hope.

Anyway, I was just on a random whim and started casting a new version of Battle of Britain in my head and wanted some suggestions from all of you - who would you cast? I'd want true Brits in the roles if possible, and where applicable, the other nationalities in their proper places. No Jolie or Zellweggers putting on fake accents.

I think Colin Firth would be an excellent Dowding and Michael Gambon as Churchill. After that, I'm stumped. The guy who played Dick Winters in Band of Brothers would make a great Red Tobin, but he might be pushing his age a little now...

Anyway, I leave it to you all...

[Tony in Tarzana]

Kate Beckinsale has to be in it somewhere. ;)

[Twitch]

Just saw Battle of Britain DVD for $10 the other day in the grocery store!
Here's a tid bit for you. General Adolf Galland actually flew one of the Spanish Ha 1112s (Bf 109 copy) in the movie.

[DiabolicalAngel]

I'd hope Arnie would be in it, redoing the scene of a Polish pilot landing in by parachute in a rural field with farm workers mistaking him for a Jerry.......'Good afternoon'...the getting told to stick his hands up with a pitch fork pointing at him...:eusa_clap

Trying hard to think who would replace James Fox or Edward Fox landing in by parachute in a veggie patch and the young lad running in the house and getting a box of cigarettes and offering him one...'Thanks awfully old chap.....' ...............er...Martin Clunes???? ;)

I guess the list would be endless......

["Doc" Devereux]

Trying hard to think who would replace James Fox or Edward Fox landing in by parachute in a veggie patch and the young lad running in the house and getting a box of cigarettes and offering him one...'Thanks awfully old chap.....' ...............er...Martin Clunes???? ;)

Paul Bettany.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/Paul_bettany.jpg/195px-Paul_bettany.jpg

[PADDY]

More non-sense. Council are going to bulldoze the Scramble Cafe at the famous Biggin Hill RAF fighter station next month (August) so they can stick an electrical power plant there!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Paddy_Middleton/HurricaneSqdn.jpg

This building has been there since 1900, and served the RAF/RFC as a parachute packing store among other things. It saw active service in the dark days of 1940-41 during the Battle of Britain and is now a memorial to those days as a cafe where people can come and remember over their cappuccinos!

Now the council in their wisdom, want to wipe another living memory off the face of the earth. (Remember not so long ago the Brown Derby over on the West Coast of the US? These heathens will stop at nothing to chip away at the Golden Era and our history).

So... please send a quick email to the local newspaper (Biggin Hill Today), to support keeping the SCRAMBLE CAFE!! Email link below to the Editor. Thankyou :)

Charlotte McDonald
Editor
Bromley Borough & Biggin Hill News
01959 564766

bh-editor@internet-today.co.uk
EMAIL THE EDITOR OF THE NEWSPAPER HERE TO SAVE SCRAMBLES CAFE (http://www.biggin-hill-today.co.uk/IT/contact/maincontact.cfm)

["Doc" Devereux]

Thanks for letting us know about this Paddy - an email has been sent!

[Cobden]

Will do soon; my living history group are all emailing there protests.

I am also looking into writing to English Heritage and seeing whether the building could be given a spot listing (so it is illegal to demolish)

[PADDY]

That's all it takes. Just like A FEW was all it took in the dark days of 1940 out of this airfield and others like it to defeat an arrogant warmonger who thought he could walk over the little people and re-write history.

PLEASE email Charlotte (Editor) and let her know how you feel about history being indiscriminately wiped out like this.

Thank you so much!

[mikepara]

Shocking. Hope my e-mail helps. Mike

[maisie]

I hope all the emails have helped! I actually live in Biggin Hill and a couple of months ago the re-decorated the outside in camo colours and also decorated it with large RAF symbols, it looks really good (and far, far better than before!) I hope it won't be knocked down like all the old RAF sections of Biggin Hill are :rage: :(

[maisie]

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/yourshopper/yourcomments/display.var.840640.0.scrambling_to_save_cafe_4_com ments.php

There is a picture of Scrambles on the link above!

["Doc" Devereux]

Looks like there's been a fairly good amount of support coming out so far, I just hope it does some good. That's for the update, Maisie!

And if anyone out there wants to join in but hasn't got around to it yet, there's still time to send an email...

[MDFrench]

PADDY,

I modified my annual Battle of Britain speech as a letter and sent it to Biggin Hill - I hope it helps. I have copied it below.

Regards,
Michael

To the editor of Biggin Hill News,

I am writing to protest the destruction of the Scramble Cafe at Biggin Hill. I am an American, but I grew up in Weybridge, Surrey, the city over which Battle of Britain Day fighting started Sept. 15, 1940.

The Battle of Britain is an extremely important event that people need to recognize, so let me take a moment to share this with you.

September 15. Here in the U.S., it doesn't mean much, but it should. Great Britain marks September 15 as Battle of Britain Day, and on this day in 1940 in the skies over London, an aerial siege that had gone on for over two months was finally broken.

Many Americans still bask in the glory of WWII and remember the sacrifices of brave soldiers at Pearl Harbor, Omaha Beach, Iwo Jima, and in the skies over Europe in the Flying Fortresses. However, few Americans know that before December 7, 1940, the United States was strictly neutral and isolationist.

Europe was begging for help, literally being overrun by the darkest evil ever manifested in man. The Nazis, it seemed, could not be stopped. As Poland, Belgium, and Holland fell and the French surrendered, one tiny island nation found itself alone with its back to the sea, the last hold-out against Hitler's armies.

They begged for help. The U.S. sent supplies, but remained isolationist in the grand scheme. Britain was alone, with a devastated army swimming back from Dunkirk, and a badly outnumbered group of Royal Air Force pilots being the only line of defense against the still advancing Luftwaffe. As many have dubbed it, this was history's narrowest margin.

These brave pilots, whom Winston Churchill dubbed "the Few," flew day and night against the seemingly endless Nazi bombers and fighters. In Hurricanes and Spitfires, they held the line, but just barely - many dying in the skies or maimed beyond recognition. These were men defending their homes, with no thought of running. Of course, there was no where to run to, except the Atlantic.

These pilots' sacrifices effectively stopped Hitler's unstoppable advance. They faced daunting odds, often 4 to 1, but they held their ground. Were it not for them, D-Day might never have been, nor North Africa, for there would have been no effective staging ground to launch a counterattack against Fortress Europe.

In short, the RAF pilots who flew and died in The Battle of Britain gave freedom a slim chance of succeeding - they carved out hope with their blood.

The Scramble Cafe is a moment in history and its preservation is an opportunity, no, a responsibility to remember these men; every - single - pilot who died so the world might live.

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. " - Winston Churchill

The destruction of the Scramble Cafe will be a shameful moment in Biggin Hill's history if it is allowed.

Thanks for reading this,
Mike French (no relation to the nation)

[PADDY]

Really, really appreciate the time and effort you folk are putting in to help save a little piece of WW2 heritage. If we don't 'try,' then the developers and councils and local govt. will just walk all over things like this and nothing will be left for the generations who come after us. Thank you one an all for keeping this support going.

["Doc" Devereux]

Really, really appreciate the time and effort you folk are putting in to help save a little piece of WW2 heritage. If we don't 'try,' then the developers and councils and local govt. will just walk all over things like this and nothing will be left for the generations who come after us. Thank you one an all for keeping this support going.

Every time a developer knocksdown a part of our heritage without opposition, it becomes easier for the next one to do the same thing. Two minutes to stand up for places like these is an awful lot less than the men and women we remember gave, and is the very least we can do.

[maisie]

I don't know if the plan for Scrambles to be knocked down is still going ahead, but when the article about it was published it said it would be closing on the 14th August if it was to go ahead. I might go up there an have look to see if its still open.

[maisie]

I have just been past there this afternoon and i'm sad to say that there are diggers outside with a pile of rubble to the back so plans to knock this piece of history is taking place.

[J. M. Stovall]

That stinks to high heaven!

["Doc" Devereux]

I am unable to post my inital reaction in this forum, but suffice to say that I am less than happy.

[PADDY]

I really thought we could have done something, I really thought we could...

I'm just gutted by this latest news, I feel stone cold over it...what is it with this throw away world of ours today that people feel they can just run rough shod over our heritage????

[Capt.Ron47]

Is there still a airbase there? I know this is the last of August, but i hope it survives.......these things need to be saved or eventually they will be forgotten....Ron

[Better Duck]

Paddy,

Took up your suggestion and wrote to the editor too, using the link you provided. I suppose every little helps, even if it is from foreign lands. We were allies in the war though, that should count!;)

peter

[nightandthecity]

today, Sept 15th, is Battle of Britain day. It's the official day of rememberance, but nothing much ever happens. Every now and then someone suggests it should be a public holiday, but heaven forbid that Brits should actually stop working now and then. Anyway, I always mark it, even if all i do is get my Battle of Britain collection out of its boxes or look at a few websites

http://www.battleofbritain.net/0041.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/september15.html

[PADDY]

""Never in the field of human conflict
was so much owed by so many to so few."
" (WS Churchill).

"What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us now. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, "This was their finest hour."

We will remember them. (thanks for that post).

[nightandthecity]

Churchill knew how to turn a phrase! As did the pilots - many of them were owed large amounts of back pay and they turned that into "..has so much been owed to so many by so few" !

[Spitfire]

Paddy - I believe Winston said:
"Never in the field of human conflict was so mch owed by so many to so few."
He sure had his way with words.
Lady Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."
Churchill: "If I were your husband, I would drink it!"

Besides that I agree. Let us never forget the few. The fighterboys of 1940.
They made a difference!

[moustache]

For many Londoners(and Brits),the Battle of Britain defined WW2.Out of this came "the few",who saved the country from invasion and destruction.
But a little known fact is how many from this distinguished group,and RAF fighters in general,started the handlebar moustache club in London.
I won't give the complete history,but WW2 buffs might delight in reading about this at:
http://www.handlebarclub.co.uk/history.htm

And i'm very proud to say i'm a member!!!!
Grow moustache,grow!!!

JD

[Smithy]

This has been floating around for sometime now but I thought that Battle of Britain enthusiasts here at FL who haven't seen this would like to...

mms://212.58.224.52/news/media/news_web/video/41144000/bb/41144739_bb_16x9.wmv

This is the only known example of colour amateur footage of a Battle of Britain dogfight. Enjoy!

[Spitfire]

This has been floating around for sometime now but I thought that Battle of Britain enthusiasts here at FL who haven't seen this would like to...

mms://212.58.224.52/news/media/news_web/video/41144000/bb/41144739_bb_16x9.wmv

This is the only known example of colour amateur footage of a Battle of Britain dogfight. Enjoy!

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap Thanks for sharing. Never seen it before.

[Harp]

Interesting film. Thanks.

[Feraud]

What an amazing piece of video. Thanks for sharing it.

[Tony in Tarzana]

Thanks! One wonders where all those machine gun bullets ended up from those dogfights over populated areas, not to mention shot-down airplanes and parts.

[CharlieH.]

Wow! So that's what a dogfight looks like from the ground. Thanks for posting it!

[Smithy]

Thanks! One wonders where all those machine gun bullets ended up from those dogfights over populated areas, not to mention shot-down airplanes and parts.

For children who had not been evacuated north, collecting old shell cases and bits of shrapnel was all the rage. The south east of England which became known to RAF pilots as "Hell's Corner" during the Battle was littered with aircraft wreckage, not an unusual sight at all in 1940.

I'm pleased you enjoyed the footage as much as I do.

Here's another little piece of memorabilia from that summer of 1940, it is the Richmond Golf Club's rules amended for the times!

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/KiwiSmithy/CCF08032006_00000.jpg

[CharlieH.]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/KiwiSmithy/CCF08032006_00000.jpg

My god, this makes it seem as if these folks would keep playing in the middle of a blitz! Penalty stroke if a bomb distracts you!

[Tony in Tarzana]

Here's another little piece of memorabilia from that summer of 1940, it is the Richmond Golf Club's rules amended for the times!

What a wonderfully subtle example of British understatement and of the famous "Stiff upper lip." It only reinforces my great respect for those who lived in those trying times.

Good show!

[Smithy]

I think it might be an example of that famous "British phlegm"!

[Marv]

Yes, thanks for posting that.........I had never seen that footage before either and I have quite a lot on BB footage on various DVDs but not that.

[PADDY]

Just watched it and found it fascinating. Thanks for the heads up on that one, really enjoyed it!

[Twitch]

Great stuff. Too bad we can't tell who was who. BTW-In the 1967 movie Battle of Britain General Galland actually flew one of Spanish-built Messerschmitt 109s for the film.

Tony as for the expended ordnance, recently on Mythbusters they finally proved that projectiles fired straight up will fall at a given rate once their energy is expended and it is not enough to kill. An angle trajectory could still be lethal however. Once a .303 caliber or 7.92mm bullet that didn't find its target in the air lost kenetic energy it would have fallen straight down without lethal results. Any fight at very low altitudes of course could unleash flatter trajectory ordnance upon the citizens.

Bet there's tens of thousands of expended rounds in the ground in Europe though.

[Smithy]

Bet there's tens of thousands of expended rounds in the ground in Europe though.

Millions I'd wager, what with all that shooting going on :D

On another note I've never been entirely convinced by Bungay's assertion that the aircraft in the footage which is heading for home at low level is a Spitfire. Wing shape looks far more like a Hurricane to me. I might be splitting straws but I'm fairly certain.

[moustache]

Great stuff!!!Thanks.I have quite a bit of colour WWII footage but am lacking that one.
I appreciate his comment that today we are so used to contrails that it is no big deal.But figure in 1940 aircraft producing such a sight had only bee around a short time.ANY footage from that time period is valuable.

JD

[Twitch]

I'd say it is a Spit due to the wing position seemingly more forward than the Hurri. also they appear wider in the film. But.....?

[Warden]

I only say this a few times, but today I shall say it, 'Pah'. Yes 'pah' I say as the silly 'tinert thing won't let me play the clip.

this would not happen if my PC was made of bakelite.

Warden

[Smithy]

I'd say it is a Spit due to the wing position seemingly more forward than the Hurri. also they appear wider in the film. But.....?

I'll have to disagree there Twitch. Proportionally the wing positioning in relation to the fuselage is not wholly different between the Hurricane I and the Spitfire I. If anything the distance between wing leading edge and spinner is shorter on the Hurri than the Spit.

To be honest the quality of the film is not fantastic but to my mind if the aircraft is a Spit then from that angle the elliptical wing should be more apparent and to my eyes the wing shape looks too squared off to be a Spit. The dihedral does like a Spitfire but then the angle the footage if shot at will accentuate the accuteness of the angle.

Saying that whether it's a Spitfire or a Hurricane, the whole thing is a brilliant piece of film history and we're lucky that someone had the presence of mind to document it.

Apologies to all for the aircraft dissection, just a bit of an interest of mine, all things Battle of Britain!

[Spitfire]

Amazing, Smithy! :eusa_clap And don't appologize. Isn't it what this forum is all about - getting vintage things right?

I'll say the thought struck me too, when I first saw the film. "Hey, that's not a Spit" Just could not - like you - put my finger on, what was wrong.
Even found some shots from Duxford with Spits in low flight trying to compare. But it proved they were all lower than this guy.

But I am with you on this. It's not a Spit - but a Hurricane.

Guesse it's the same old (unfair) story: Everybody believes the Spit won the Battle of Britain. So every british plane in the air back then, MUST be a Spitfire!

[Twitch]

I only mention a Spit due to the "appearance" from that angle that they "seem" wider than the Hurri's but the Hurricane's were fairly wide as well. The horizontal stabilizer looks larger than the Spitfire's though too going toward the Hurricane. It's not a 109 for sure!:)

[Smithy]

It's not a 109 for sure!:)

That's for sure! :)

[Alan Eardley]

Thanks! One wonders where all those machine gun bullets ended up from those dogfights over populated areas, not to mention shot-down airplanes and parts.

Growing up in the UK in the 1950s and spending a lot of time hiking in the Peak District as a boy, it seems amazing in retrospect how many crashed aircraft there were to be found on the moors. Looking back, it is sad to think of the men who died in these incidents, but at the time with the callowness and callousness of youth we didn't regard them as anything other than exciting artefacts to examine. It was those wrecks that inspired me to a lifelong interest in military aviation history.

Although no BoB action took place in the area where I lived, there were many wrecks, RAF Luftwaffe and USAAF. I can remember particularly Lancaster KB993 of 408 Squadron RCAF and RB-29A Superfortress 44-61999 'Overexposed' of the 91st Photo. Recon. Wing (which had previously been involved in the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests, both lying on the hills east of Glossop. The remains of P-38J Lightning 42-67207 of 554 Fighter Training Squadron were also to be found on a hill to the north of the town. The airfames of some of these wrecks were substantially intact until the 1960s, although the internal equipment had usually been salvaged, probably soon after the crashes.

The wreckage of B-24H Liberator 42-94841 was also to be found on the moors between Glossop and Hayfield, although an intense fire had consumed almost everything but the undercarriage. As far as I know, there were no survivors of any of these wrecks. I have visited these sites regularly over the years, and it is sad that trophy hunters have removed most of the wreckage. Little now remains of any of them.

Alan

[Alan Eardley]

Which reminds me that tomorrow marks the 60th anniversary of perhaps the most poignant wreck of all. On 13th February 1947 Halifax Mk9 RT922 of 47 Squadron crashed while attempting to drop food supplies to the people of the village of Grindon, who had been cut off by snow for over eight weeks. While overflying the site to measure the drop, the pilot was blinded by heavy cloud and blizzard conditions, struck the high ground on Grindon Moor and the plane was destroyed by fire before bystanders could effect a rescue. Squadron Leader Don McIntyre and his crew of five were killed, as were two civilian press photographers who were on board to record the event. Their sacrifice is recorded by a stone memorial at the crash site. Although within my lifetime, in a place I know well, that seems like a different world...

Alan

[Smithy]

WWII aircraft wrecks are (for obvious reasons) becoming increasingly rare now but are hugely moving sites. There are still a few in Norway which can be seen, both RAF and Luftwaffe.

I know Kenneth Wynn (the Battle of Britain historian) quite well and he has a sizeable collection of pieces of aircraft from the Battle. To be honest I find them a little unsettling, especially as each is documented with the identity of the individual aircraft and the fate of her crew.

[Spitfire]

I have just watched "Battle of Britain" - ( again;) )
They showed it on one of our national TV stations - next sunday they will show "Bridge of the River Kwai".
Hopefully they will show even more old british warmovies....

IMO The Battle of Britain still holds. It has it's weak points, and the model Stukas looks like...eh...model Stukas.
But all in all: Made in 1968/1969 - What a movie!!!:eusa_clap

[Twit]

One thing thats ironic about the making of that film is that it was filmed at Duxford, before it was the museum that it is now, and the production did more damage to the place than was managed during the battle!

I spend much of my time working at St Georges hospital in Hornchurch which was Hornchurch airfield during the war and saw a lot of action. You really wouldnt know now although I am going to explore some of derelict outer buildings if I get the chance.

And yes good film, although the best attempt at conveying the battle is Patrick Bishop's Fighter Boys book. It really gets the sense of total ordinary-ness in the midst of huge battle.

[Norumbega]

For those who enjoy stats, this may prove of interest for those who study the Battle of Britain. I for one didn't realize the number of Czech and Polish pilots who took part.
http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/BoB/stat.html

[donCarlos]

For those who enjoy stats, this may prove of interest for those who study the Battle of Britain. I for one didn't realize the number of Czech and Polish pilots who took part.
http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/BoB/stat.html
And I never realized how good our pilots were!

[Twit]

303 squadron was prodominantly Polish, and pretty fearsome by all accounts. Having said that there are also a number of accounts of them overstepping the mark in terms of aggression against enermy pilots after they had baled out...

[Corky]

The outtakes from the movie BATTLE OF BRITAIN look better when recycled as stock dogfight sequences into other movies such as "Piece of Cake", (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157239/) a 1988 BBC series based on the men of the RAF Hornet Squadron during the early days of World War II.

[Norumbega]

303 squadron was prodominantly Polish, and pretty fearsome by all accounts. Having said that there are also a number of accounts of them overstepping the mark in terms of aggression against enermy pilots after they had baled out...

I've a feeling that the Kampania wrześniowa was still rather fresh in their collective consciousness.

[Spitfire]

And yes good film, although the best attempt at conveying the battle is Patrick Bishop's Fighter Boys book. It really gets the sense of total ordinary-ness in the midst of huge battle.

Absolutely one of my personal favourits on the subject.

[Speedster]

BUGGER!!! :rage:

I missed that... and i even knew that DR2 was showing old war movies on Sunday afternoons. Watched "The Great Escape" a couple of weeks ago.

I better order the "Battle of Britain" DVD as soon as possible. Watched it in 1969 in Imperial when i was 11 years old. Made a great impression on me back then.

[KilroyCD]

BUGGER!!! :rage:

I missed that... and i even knew that DR2 was showing old war movies on Sunday afternoons. Watched "The Great Escape" a couple of weeks ago.

I better order the "Battle of Britain" DVD as soon as possible. Watched it in 1969 in Imperial when i was 11 years old. Made a great impression on me back then.
There are two versions of the B of B DVD. I'd suggest looking for the B of B Special Edition 2-DVD set, as it corrects the glaring mistakes made when they issued the original DVD. When the original DVD was issued, they made a number of changes, and they weren't all for the better.

[kampkatz]

I have the B of B on vhs. Would the 2 disk dvd be worth getting?

[Speedster]

Thanks! Will be looking for the Special Edition 2-DVD then.


There are two versions of the B of B DVD. I'd suggest looking for the B of B Special Edition 2-DVD set, as it corrects the glaring mistakes made when they issued the original DVD. When the original DVD was issued, they made a number of changes, and they weren't all for the better.

[KilroyCD]

I have the B of B on vhs. Would the 2 disk dvd be worth getting?

I feel it would be worth it for picture quality reasons, as VHS picture quality will ultimately degrade with time and usage.
With the 2 DVD set you'd be getting essentially the same film as you have on VHS, but with more subtitles when the Germans speak. You'll also have a bunch of special features found on the second disc.
When the first edition DVD came out (in 2003 I believe), MGM had re-edited the film and made some changes, including changing some of the score. At the same time, they didn't acknowledge (in the credits) Ron Goldman for having composed the vast majority of the music, instead crediting only Sir William Walton. They added more subtitling (when the Germans spoke), and some of the translation was incorrect. But the biggest mistake was at the close of the film. They substituted this Winston Churchill quote for the original: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." That quote was after the fall of Tobruk. The quote that was originally there (and restored in the later 2 DVD set) is the appropriate one: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

[Windsock]

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/arch5000/General/RIMG0213.jpg


(Typo in the title sorry- should be "ist") Thanks to technical advice from Rich I now carry a copy of the film with me wherever I go on my iphone. I made an mp4 from my DVD copy and loaded it. The picture and sound quality are just as they are on the DVD. Great for when I get stuck waiting for something.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/arch5000/General/RIMG0211.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/arch5000/General/RIMG0212.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/arch5000/General/RIMG0220.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/arch5000/General/RIMG0223.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/arch5000/General/RIMG0225.jpg

[Spitfire]

now...that's nice Andrew!:)

[ethanedwards]

I love this film, warts and all. The model Ju87's are unfortunate, but given the technology of the day, I'm not sure how else they could have done it. (I'm sure the breaching of the Mohne dam will be far more convincing in the remake of the Dambusters, but will it be a better film for all that visual maturity........?)

Despite all the superb aerial sequences, one of my favourite moments in BoB comes early in the film - it's the exchange between Ralph Richardson and Kurt Jurgens in the British embassy. I always wondered if this was based on true events or is in fact just a device to drive the plot forwards?

Looks excellent on your iphone Andrew, I wonder if you get people watching over your shoulder?

[WH1]

I saw this first when I was a kid. It was a great movie, found it last year on the shared drive in fallujah and loaded it on my external harddrive so now I can watch whenever I wish. I am not historically competent enough on WW2 airiel combat to spot the issues so to me it is just a great movie.lol

[H.Johnson]

Shouldn't this material be in the 'Moving Picture' thread?

I thought it might actually about something real, a documentary, perhaps.

[ethanedwards]

Pat on the back for H.Johnson. Well done sir - I hope everybody now sees the
error of their ways. Disgraceful behaviour.


"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."
Oscar Wilde

[Spitfire]

I will never ever never ever do it again.:rolleyes:

[H.Johnson]

Thanks for the sarcasm. I should have known better than make a well-intentioned suggestion.

[ethanedwards]

Think nothing of it old chap.

[BellyTank]

Thanks for the sarcasm. I should have known better than make a well-intentioned suggestion.

Is there an emoticon for "uttered in a low monotone"..?



B
T

[H.Johnson]

Honestly, I mean no offense to anyone, but I think it's important to know where to look for items on a forum - a bit like books in a library. Similar WW2 film-related threads (e.g. on the Dambusters films) tend to be on the Moving Picture 'shelf'. I simply wished to suggest that it would be 'tidier' (and more useful) if this thread on the 1969 BoB went along with that, particularly since the postings seem to relate to its merits as a film, rather than to e.g. a new light it may shed on WW2.

Surely if all items relating to WW2 that have their own sections (e.g. WW2 outerwear, WW2 hats, WW2 suits) were put on the WW2 thread it would soon be 'clogged up'?

As usual, apologies for any offence caused. Just my opinion, of course.

[Windsock]

I'm glad it's here- wouldn't have seen it otherwise. I only check two sections; Outerwear and WWII.:)

[H.Johnson]

Thanks! Will be looking for the Special Edition 2-DVD then.

Speedster,

Do you still want a copy? As a result of it being one of my favourite films, friends repeatedly buy it for me at Christmas and/or birthdays. Presumably they forget that they did the same last year!

I usually let a tactful period of time elapse and then I 'charity shop' them, but being rather busy I haven't yet done so after Christmas.

I have your address - if you want one I will send it to you.

[Speedster]

Yes, please. That would be lovely. Thanks.

[H.Johnson]

Consider it on its way. Enjoy.

[H.Johnson]

Speedster,

I have thrown in a copy of Angels One Five - which is interesting for its portrayal of the operation of a FC sector control station in the BoB. It' searly post war special effects are...interesting! The Hurricanes in the film were borrowed from the Portugese Airforce.

Sorry - this should be in 'Moving Pictures'...:eusa_doh:

[Spitfire]

Speedster,

I have thrown in a copy of Angels One Five - which is interesting for its portrayal of the operation of a FC sector control station in the BoB. It' searly post war special effects are...interesting! The Hurricanes in the film were borrowed from the Portugese Airforce.

Sorry - this should be in 'Moving Pictures'...:eusa_doh:

:whistling ;)

[Speedster]

Speedster,

I have thrown in a copy of Angels One Five - which is interesting for its portrayal of the operation of a FC sector control station in the BoB. It' searly post war special effects are...interesting! The Hurricanes in the film were borrowed from the Portugese Airforce.

Sorry - this should be in 'Moving Pictures'...:eusa_doh:

Wow...

Thank you very much, mr Johnson. I'm looking very much forward to seeing them.

My oldest son, who is going with us to Duxford Flying Legends, is going to watch them together with me. He is about the same age as i was when i saw BoB when it first came up in Copenhagen in the late 60'ies.

[H.Johnson]

My pleasure. Who knows? We may meet at Duxford.

[Speedster]

That would be an honour and a pleasure, mr. Johnson.

[Spitfire]

Any of you out there had a chance to read this one:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/513ThwrHxGL__SS500_.jpg

Guesse it's quite new, but since I really enjoyed his "Fighterboys" I guesse it's a must-have.
Still - I would like to hear your oppinion on it - if any.:)

[Smithy]

This hasn't been published yet Soren. I'll pick it up as you know me and anything Battle of Britain, but I'm not expecting anything earth-shatteringly new in here as day-to-day narratives of the Battle already exist. I imagine it will be much like his "Fighter Boys" and "Bomber Boys" in being a well-organised collection of previously existing information in a readable package.

[Spitfire]

Guesse you are right there - but I do like his style of writing. Bishop somehow manages to get the personal feelings and experiences of the pilots - and everybody else involved - across. So I've line up in the cew too.

[Smithy]

manages to get the personal feelings and experiences of the pilots - and everybody else involved - across.

Soren if you like that perspective, there's a new book coming out next month by Dilip Sarkar called "The Few: The Story of the Battle of Britain in the Words of the Pilots" which promises to be a goodie. Dilip has been interviewing those involved with the BoB for several decades and indeed is personal friends of many of The Few, so the book should be very informative. He also has one of the greatest private collections of photographs of the BoB, and I also highly recommend his published volumes of his BoB photographs - many of which have been previously unseen.

[Spitfire]

Tim, The fun thing is, that I read about "The Few" - and (surprise, surpsise) ordered it the same day as I ordered Bishop's book. :D

Will check out his photo books now.

Tally Ho!

[Naphtali]

Let us know how this book compares with Len Deighton's Spitfire -- corrected to Fighter.

[Smithy]

Let us know how this book compares with Len Deighton's Spitfire.

I imagine you mean "Fighter" by Len Deighton.

He's actually written two books on the Battle, the aforementioned "Fighter" and also "The Battle of Britain", which is a simplified version of "Fighter" with more pictures.

I'm not mad keen on Deighton's BoB writings which I find slightly sensationalist, but then I'm the same with Bungay as well. IMHO there's better books on the Battle out there.

[Naphtali]

I imagine you mean "Fighter" by Len Deighton. . . .You are correct, an illustration of relying on memory rather than walking to another room and look at the title.

[Spitfire]

Just recieved it....WOW!!!!!!!! So packed with pictures, maps, portraits and personal notes in a stunning layout. Can't wait to get started.:D

[Spitfire]

Let us know how this book compares with Len Deighton's Spitfire -- corrected to Fighter.

It's quite simple really. If you only buy one book on the Battle of Britain, this could be it!!!!
Day to day overview, personal memories (some never published before), lots of background material and loaded with pictures, paintings and drawings. In a stunning layout. Need I say more?:)

[Smithy]

It's quite simple really. If you only buy one book on the Battle of Britain, this could be it!!!!
Day to day overview, personal memories (some never published before), lots of background material and loaded with pictures, paintings and drawings. In a stunning layout. Need I say more?:)

Good to her it's a goodie Soren. I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive.

I've always recommended Richard Townshend Bickers book as the first intro book on the BoB so now I'm really interested to see Bishop's tome.

Did you receive Dilip's book as well?

[Spitfire]

Good to her it's a goodie Soren. I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive.

I've always recommended Richard Townshend Bickers book as the first intro book on the BoB so now I'm really interested to see Bishop's tome.

Did you receive Dilip's book as well?

Nope - Dilip's book's still in the pipeline.

[Spitfire]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/TallyHo1600-2.jpg

Let's never forget The Few.

[dhermann1]

Spits for the fighters, Hurricanes for the bombers!

[kampkatz]

The Hurricane has always been my favorite UK fighter.

[Marv]

The Hurricane has always been my favorite UK fighter.

Mine too, such a wonderful and worthy aircraft :eusa_clap

[Tabasco Joe]

It looks interesting. I'll have to pick it up once I get thru the other books on my "list" of war reading material.

[Smithy]

It's quite simple really. If you only buy one book on the Battle of Britain, this could be it!!!!
Day to day overview, personal memories (some never published before), lots of background material and loaded with pictures, paintings and drawings. In a stunning layout. Need I say more?:)

Finally got my copy on Friday and as you were Soren I was hugely impressed.

Beautifully presented and laid out with a very readable text. I probably own over a hundred books on the Battle and I can honestly say this is (along with Townshend Bickers' 1990 offering), the very best introductory book on the BoB. It even had a number of photos that were new to me.

Would recommend this to any Lounger with an interest in the BoB.

[H.Johnson]

I'm reading it at the moment and it is as impressively researched as others say.

Personally (perhaps because I'm an academic myself), I prefer the generation of BoB or WW2 books that were written soon after the event by people 'who were there' but as secondary academic research this book takes some beating IMHO. I recommend it, although some people may find it a 'dry read' compared to, say, Deighton's book.

I, too, await Sarkar's book with interest - I think that will be really good..

[Spitfire]

The postman just delievered Dilip Sakars "The Few" at my doorstep. Looks great - can't wait to get started.:D :D

(:( Nothing on Albert "Zulu" Lewis though)

[Brummagem Joe]

When I was in school in Britain in the early sixties I knew a couple of these guys who'd flown in fighter command in 1940 but who by then were in respectable but humdrum jobs.....one was a bank manager of all things and the other a sales manager for a company that sold grinding wheels. Great guys who weren't in the least interested in talking about their experiences and is some ways laughed about it. Completely fearless, driving with the grinding wheel sales manager was a life threatening experience, and both had a great sense of humor, and liked their tipple as they called it. Their version of it wasn't at all heroic but just like doing a rather dangerous day job. Another thing you have to remember is that most of these guys were in their twenties.

[Smithy]

I'm full of anticipation for Dilip's book as I think it promises to be a goodie. Once again I'd like to put a plug in for his BoB photographic volumes as they really are superb, with some simply incredible images.

Very interested to hear what you think of his new book Soren, and eagerly awaiting my copy.

[Spitfire]

Smithy: How many volumes are there of Dilips Photographs of BoB. I' ve been able to spot 4 - are there more than that?

Sounds like something I should get hold of.:)

[Smithy]

Smithy: How many volumes are there of Dilips Photographs of BoB. I' ve been able to spot 4 - are there more than that?

Sounds like something I should get hold of.:)

I'm pretty sure he's only done the four thusfar Soren. I know for a fact you'll like them. The first two are my favourites.


EDIT: By the way and before I forget, another little piece of news which might make some of you prick your ears up...a little bird told me that Geoff Wellum's classic "First Light" is to be made by the BBC for release for the 70th anniversary of the Battle. Made me smile!

[Spitfire]

Just got all 4 photograph collection books.
Plan to spend the whole evening with my nose in them.:D

[Smithy]

Just got all 4 photograph collection books.
Plan to spend the whole evening with my nose in them.:D

Good job mate! Poor Dorthe won't get any sense out of you for the next few days :D

[Spitfire]

.....eh...you were saying, Smithy???lol

[Spitfire]

This morning saw the sad loss of Wing Commander Bob Doe - Battle of Britain Spitfire and Hurricane hero. RIP.
The Few are getting fewer - let us never forget.

[Windsock]

Painful news Soren, but inevitable.

This has reminded me to call a couple of old WWII Pilot mates tomorrow for a chin wag (or as one of them calls it "hanger doors open").

[kampkatz]

Is there a published obit on this hero?

[aswatland]

This is really sad news indeed. Here's a link to his obituary in the Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/military-obituaries/air-force-obituaries/7294353/Wing-Commander-Bob-Doe.html

[Smithy]

I had heard about this through the BoBHS. Very sad news indeed.

For those interested in learning more about Bob's experiences, may I suggest his autobiography, "Bob Doe: Fighter Pilot".

Good job posting this Søren :eusa_clap

[KilroyCD]

One of our true heroes has passed. My he rest in peace.

High Flight
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

[Hondo]

Its sad but thats life, we'll all face that one day.
Death be not proud! :( RIP

[Smithy]

Heads up lads!

James Holland's "The Battle of Britain" has just been released. He's written the very, very good "Fortress Malta" and "Italy's Sorrow" and the excellent Battle of Britain novel, "The Burning Blue" amongst others.

Based on his earlier efforts this should to be a great one for us BoB nuts and I personally think promises to be an absolute corker.

[Spitfire]

Preordered it fom Amazon - unfortunately it did not arrive before my trip to London. Now I has something to look forward to instead.

[Pip]

Slightly off-topic I'm afraid chaps, but have any of you read Geoffery Wellum's autobiography 'First Light'? If so, the BBC are releasing a documentary on it to coincide with the Battle of Britain 70th anniversary in September.

I have spent the last week on the set doing some of the main background work and it looks very very promising!

Something to look forward to hopefully ;)

[Smithy]

Slightly off-topic I'm afraid chaps, but have any of you read Geoffery Wellum's autobiography 'First Light'? If so, the BBC are releasing a documentary on it to coincide with the Battle of Britain 70th anniversary in September.

I have spent the last week on the set doing some of the main background work and it looks very very promising!

Something to look forward to hopefully ;)

Pip, without doubt my favourite BoB pilot memoir, I've read it about three times now.

There's been some talk about this in the BoB Historical Society since it was announced last year. Sounds excellent and looking forward to it immensely.

[Chas]

Not meaning to tinkle on anyone's parade, but what is different about this book (or expected to be) that hasn't already been covered?

The BoB, after D-Day, has got to be the most written-about battle in WW2. Pretty well-trod ground, isn't it?

I'm going to open a humungulous can of worms and suggest that SeaLion never would have come off, even if the Germans had managed to take out Fighter Command.

[Spitfire]

Not meaning to tinkle on anyone's parade, but what is different about this book (or expected to be) that hasn't already been covered?

The BoB, after D-Day, has got to be the most written-about battle in WW2. Pretty well-trod ground, isn't it?

I'm going to open a humungulous can of worms and suggest that SeaLion never would have come off, even if the Germans had managed to take out Fighter Command.

A woman comes into a huge store.
Looking for a gift for her husband, she asks in the information for gifts.
The man behind the counter suggests a book.
Oh no - she says - he's got one of those.

Because different writers, writes differently and from different angles.
Because new facts are still being digged up.
And because it's bloody interesting - at least to some of us.

Regarding your last statement: Yes, you are opening a can of worms!
Of course you are welcome to think whatever you like - even if it goes up against all known historans and historical facts and documents. But why bother?
And why bother us?
Are you a man with a mission or just another troll...

[Spitfire]

Just bought these 4 new titles:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/41KPSGM6Z4L__SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51j9hKTJHIL__SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51Ron12d3RL__SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51GLHaFHG3L__SL500_AA300_.jpg

Bought the last one at Duxford this sunday. Really great (coffetable???) book - stuffed with original maps, memos, letters, combatreports - all wrapped up in an amazing layout!

[Smithy]

Not meaning to tinkle on anyone's parade, but what is different about this book (or expected to be) that hasn't already been covered?

The BoB, after D-Day, has got to be the most written-about battle in WW2. Pretty well-trod ground, isn't it?

That's a bit of a daft thing to say. New information becoming available and new interpretations are the basis of history writing.

And new information is constantly coming to light concerning the BoB. Look at the titles released by Andy Saunders of late and particularly his "Finding the Few" of last year. My good friend Ken Wynn is releasing his 3rd edition of "Men of the Battle of Britain" this year and it is going to be 30% larger than the previous edition, and how much of it is going to be new unpublished information? 30%.

Obviously if the BoB is not of great interest to you then you could get by just reading one of Townshend Bickers, Bishop, Bungay or even Wood and Dempster's offerings. But for those with a particular interest in a subject, new information and new interpretations are also going to be of interest, and eagerly awaited.


I'm going to open a humungulous can of worms and suggest that SeaLion never would have come off, even if the Germans had managed to take out Fighter Command.

With Sealion, the fact of the matter was that an actual ground invasion of Britain was not necessarily needed. If the Luftwaffe had of been able to decimate the RAF then German air superiority over the Channel and southern England could ultimately have forced a British conditional ceasefire, or at the very least severely hampered Britain's ability to wage a war against Germany. Dowding acknowledged this, and Hitler also preferred a conditional ceasefire of Britain, that is why he was still repeating his 19th July appeal for one in leaflets in August.

Either way, 2917 brave men made sure that we never had to face the possibly of either a conditional British ceasefire or even the possibility of a German invasion.

[Smithy]

Søren, I have that Richard Overy offering on order. Heard good things about it as well.

Did you splash out on anything else at Duxford?

[Pip]

Quite a fan of Dickie Overy's book, it's a good read and certainly doubles up as something to steady tables and chairs ;)

Dickie is a good friend of one of my lecturers at university so managed to meet him and get it signed, he's a very nice chap really and knows his beans! In addition to that, and unfortunately I'm not on commission, but the Battle of Britain Experience book is now on offer on Amazon.co.uk/com for £15!

P.S. Will dig out a few of the photos I took on set to give you a little taste of what is to come ;)

[Spitfire]

Søren, I have that Richard Overy offering on order. Heard good things about it as well.

Did you splash out on anything else at Duxford?

Besides a good and solid suntan, meeting Andrew and Paddy, the occasional pint of Spitfire and lots of great flying (3 Hurricanes together!!!) - that's about it.:D

[Spitfire]

Slightly off-topic I'm afraid chaps, but have any of you read Geoffery Wellum's autobiography 'First Light'? If so, the BBC are releasing a documentary on it to coincide with the Battle of Britain 70th anniversary in September.

I have spent the last week on the set doing some of the main background work and it looks very very promising!

Something to look forward to hopefully ;)

First Light is aso one of my favourits!
Sounds good with the BBC documentary - can't wait to see your pics - and hopefully Danish Television will show the documentary too.

[Smithy]

P.S. Will dig out a few of the photos I took on set to give you a little taste of what is to come ;)

Please do Pip. I'm champing at the bit for this :)

Søren good to hear you had a grand time. I think next time I'm back up in Europe we're going to have to time it for Duxford.

[Pip]

Here we go, apologies for the quality of the photographs as I took them on my phone camera. Really ought to lug a proper camera around with me more often, although there's a limit to what you can fit in RAF SD pockets lol

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/P5130307.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/photo4.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/photo.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/photo2.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/photo3.jpg

3 of us alongside the owner of the replica Spit behind us which was used as background behind the Mk2 Spit.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/P5120295.jpg

[Spitfire]

Please do Pip. I'm champing at the bit for this :)

Søren good to hear you had a grand time. I think next time I'm back up in Europe we're going to have to time it for Duxford.

How about September 4th and 5th: The Battle of Britain Airshow?:)

[Smithy]

Fantastic photos Pip, but where are 92's "QJ" codes ;)

Am I correct in saying that they used the "AI" codes because they will be using footage from 1969's "Battle of Britain"?

Once again thanks for posting!

Søren, I'd love to make it over for the 70th anniversary celebrations, although I'm not sure whether I will be able. I'll see what I can do though!

[Pip]

I have a feeling that was their intention, on a similar par to the method used when filming Dark Blue World. Shame to have done it, but where needs must I guess. There were a few authenticity niggles like you would expect, but on the whole it seemed pretty good with the uniforms and equipment receiving a firm nod from the 'powers that be' ;)

Hopefully see you all at an airshow sometime soon!

[Spitfire]

Nice shots Pip - thanks for sharing.

[Pip]

A friend took a few good group ones on his camera so I'll post them up here if people are interested. Will also keep in touch with the program's stills photographer for any news of developments etc!

Sorry for hijacking the thread somewhat.

[Pip]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/filming4.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/filming3.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/filming2.jpg


With thanks to Richard Carson.

[Chas]

That's a bit of a daft thing to say. New information becoming available and new interpretations are the basis of history writing.

And new information is constantly coming to light concerning the BoB. Look at the titles released by Andy Saunders of late and particularly his "Finding the Few" of last year. My good friend Ken Wynn is releasing his 3rd edition of "Men of the Battle of Britain" this year and it is going to be 30% larger than the previous edition, and how much of it is going to be new unpublished information? 30%.

Obviously if the BoB is not of great interest to you then you could get by just reading one of Townshend Bickers, Bishop, Bungay or even Wood and Dempster's offerings. But for those with a particular interest in a subject, new information and new interpretations are also going to be of interest, and eagerly awaited.



With Sealion, the fact of the matter was that an actual ground invasion of Britain was not necessarily needed. If the Luftwaffe had of been able to decimate the RAF then German air superiority over the Channel and southern England could ultimately have forced a British conditional ceasefire, or at the very least severely hampered Britain's ability to wage a war against Germany. Dowding acknowledged this, and Hitler also preferred a conditional ceasefire of Britain, that is why he was still repeating his 19th July appeal for one in leaflets in August.

Either way, 2917 brave men made sure that we never had to face the possibly of either a conditional British ceasefire or even the possibility of a German invasion.

So I'm daft for suggesting another view of a historical event?

Excuse me for attempting to make brisket out of your sacred cow, but that is a specious argument at best; for a number of reasons. Firstly, with Churchill at the helm, there wouldn't have been even a conditional ceasefire. The "we will fight them on the beaches" speech had already been made. Second, Sea Lion, if it had been attempted, most likely would have been a disaster. The Germans had no experience whatsoever with amphibious operations of any size. If you recall from the Allied experience, specialized equipment and vessels were necessary and it wasn't until after Anzio that all the necessary lessons were learned in order for D-Day to happen. In essence, the Wehrmacht was planning to cross the Channel, in October in river barges. So what they were proposing was something roughly on the scale of Operation Torch with river barges. When Sea Lion was called off, there was universal sense of relief that ran through all ranks, especially with the German high command. They knew that it was likely to be a disaster.

Thirdly, the Luftwaffe would not have been able to stop the RN from breaking up an invasion. They had no armor piercing bombs, no aerial torpedoes and no experience with using the latter. I point out as well that the largest ship ever sunk by the Luftwaffe was a Fiji Class cruiser. The Channel and North Sea were already heavily mined against U-Boats, so you can forget operating U-Boats there, the only effective counter to the RN in any case. Besides, the channel is too shallow to effectively operate submarines in. German heavy guns at the Straits of Dover were a concern, but were far too few in number to stop say, three BB's and a screen of CA's moving down from Scapa Flow at 22+ kts.

So if Sea Lion wasn't needed, then why fight the BoB in the first place (if you are German)? Smithy, you're suggesting that they had no intention of landing at any rate. So what you're already suggesting is that there was a degree of redundancy in any case. That makes no sense when you look at Hitler's approach to military planning; he was at the very height of his power and prestige, and if he ordered it, it was going to be carried out. It's more than likely if it was attempted, the veil of invincibility that the Wehrmacht was wearing would have been ripped away far sooner than it actually was. And that would have been a far more costly defeat to NAZI Germany in material terms than what the BoB actually was.

I'm not saying that the BoB didn't need to be fought, it clearly had to be. I'm guessing that my analysis of the BoB is being seen as revisionist or in some way is being interpreted as being critical of the sacrifice of the 2917. It isn't; I'm suggesting that it wasn't the decisive battle that it is being sold as. Nothing was decided until May of '43, when the German U-Boats were defeated and the US was well and truly involved in the ETO. Before that, the British were limited to small-scale stuff; commando operations and nuisance air raids.

I've read several books on the subject of the BoB, but somebody is going to have to pull a pretty good-sized rabbit out of the hat if they suggest that one needs to buy and read more books on it. Unless of course, the intention is to support British publishing concerns.

[Spitfire]

May I kindly suggest that Chas moves this (interesting) debate to a new thread, in order not to have this one closed down.
We are still some who likes to read as much as possible on the subject Battle of Britain - and still feel we can learn something new.

[BaggyPants]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/petyofficer/filming3.jpg

When did Gary start the slug balancing act? lol

[Pip]

Haha he was originally going to have an enormous handlebar job on it but he preferred to have that one, being a Flt Sjt etc ;)

Looked very good though, would have thought it to be real if I hadn't seen him without one a few minutes before he disappeared into the make up van lol

[Chas]

The thread is about a new book on the BoB, and for my part it is being conducted under the ROE of the WW2 FL moderator's rules, so I don't see (at least at this point) a reason for closing it.

Anything regarding WW2 is of great interest to me, to answer a previous question. I'm still trying to figure out what specific new information is available that wasn't beforehand.

[Spitfire]

Neither do I at this moment. I only fear it might happen eventually.;)

[Spitfire]

Yes it was! There is no doubt in my mind.
Was it one of the great turning points of WWII?
Maybe not – but it was, as Mr. Churchill said: “The end of the beginning”.

Would Hitler have invaded UK in 1940?
I don’t know – and nobody knows really. Except Adolf – who for some very good reasons can not tell us.
BUT – he did order the generals and admirals to make up a plan- a plan which also included the destruction of RAF.
Goering boasted his Luftwaffe could do it in two weeks and after that, the English would beg for peace and no costly invasion would be necessary.

I am also aware of the feelings some of Hitlers admirals and generals had to the plan.
Just as the result of an invasion still is blowing in the wind.
The British navy was stronger than the German – but they were also scattered all over the place. The Atlantic, the Mediterranean and the far east.

I think that Hitler had great hopes that Goering and his Luftwaffe – together with the blockade of the shipping – would force the British people to its knees.
And the invasionplans were halfhearted and up his sleeve.
But we also know, that no matter what all the generals and admirals in the German highcommand might think of the plan, if Hitler had ordered it, they would either had to go through with it or spend the rest of their lives in a not so nice camp.

To sum it all up:
I believe that The Battle of Britain showed Hitler and his generals and admirals, that it would NOT be a walkover. That Britain and its people had NOT given up. And certainly was not going to either.
I also believe, that if Goering had succeeded with the destruction of RAF and all the other military targets Luftwaffe was going for, there would have been an invasion of Britain anyway. Hitler and his high command knew – and feared – that USA would be drawn in, and when they were, they needed somewhere to fight from. A steppingstone.
And Britain was just that.

That’s just how I see it. And I wasn’t even there.
And that’s also why, I still think it was “not the beginning of the end – but the end of the beginning!”

Why do I still read about this subject then?
Because every new book written on the subject brings out new details, gives new voices a chance and allows me to experience new personal stories.
The Few are getting fewer almost every month now.
I want to get to know their stories before it’s too late.
That’s why two or three books on the subject is not enough for me.

[Chas]

Full points to you, Spitfire, for your honesty. You have every intention of buying every book you can on the subject. No problem, man. Fill your boots.

FYI: RN assets available to address Operation Sea Lion: 8 BB's, 30+ Cruisers, 90 DD's and 25 Submarines. More than enough. That was just the Home Fleet. Doubtless more would have been made available from the other fleet commands.

The Germans did not have enough subs to come even close to threatening the supply lanes until '42 and their surface fleet had already been badly mauled in the Norwegian Campaign.

[Smithy]

So I'm daft for suggesting another view of a historical event?

No I said you were daft for saying that there wasn't anything new to write about the BoB and that everything had already been covered.


Excuse me for attempting to make brisket out of your sacred cow, but that is a specious argument at best; for a number of reasons. Firstly, with Churchill at the helm, there wouldn't have been even a conditional ceasefire.

That's a debatable point. If the RAF had been decimated then Britain would not have had control over her southern airspace, meaning this would have given free range to the Luftwaffe to conduct operations against towns, shipping, etc. If this had of occurred it would have been exceedingly difficult for Britain to continue waging the war effectively and maintaining public support if the Luftwaffe had free range to bomb everything within range of its bases in France, Denmark and Norway.


So if Sea Lion wasn't needed, then why fight the BoB in the first place (if you are German)? Smithy, you're suggesting that they had no intention of landing at any rate.

Once again I never said Hitler had no intention of landing. What I said was that it seemed to him that ultimately it would not be necessary. He firmly believed initially that Britain would seek a ceasefire especially after the disaster with the BEF, and then even after primary bombing targets were switched to population centres after 25th August. That's why the logistical invasion plans were cursory. He mistakenly believed that Britain would capitulate.


Before that, the British were limited to small-scale stuff; commando operations and nuisance air raids.

So the Western Desert battles from 40 to 43 were "small-scale stuff"?


I've read several books on the subject of the BoB, but somebody is going to have to pull a pretty good-sized rabbit out of the hat if they suggest that one needs to buy and read more books on it. Unless of course, the intention is to support British publishing concerns.

Once again I'll reiterate what I have said, new information is constantly being discovered about the BoB and the men who fought it. It might not be interesting to you as it might be of a detail level that doesn't interest you.

So you're not interested in another book on the BoB? Well that's good for you as nobody's going to force you to buy it. But obviously others here are interested in it and have an interest in hearing about when new books on the subject are published.

[Chas]

OK, what new information?

And yes, the Western Desert campaign was small-scale. Only the Italian forces deployed there were anything other than Corps-sized formations; and they (the Italians) were largely ineffective. Compared to the war in Russia, and the invasion of Europe, the Western Desert campaigns were small scale engagements. Of great strategic importance, with the overall issue of who controlled the Suez Canal, but considering the assets invested, still small scale.

[Smithy]

OK, what new information?

Plenty. New information on aircrew and their fate, various authors analyses of the BoB are always changing. For example compare an early account such as "The Narrow Margin" with a later one such as Bungay's "Most Dangerous Enemy". There's also new first hand accounts. Just because you're not interested doesn't mean others aren't.

At the end of the day you've made your point. We all know now that Chas isn't interested in another book on the BoB. So why don't you leave it at that and go and read about something you're interested in and post in a thread about that, rather than preaching to everybody here that there's nothing new to be read and that people shouldn't buy more books about it.


And yes, the Western Desert campaign was small-scale. Only the Italian forces deployed there were anything other than Corps-sized formations; and they (the Italians) were largely ineffective. Compared to the war in Russia, and the invasion of Europe, the Western Desert campaigns were small scale engagements. Of great strategic importance, with the overall issue of who controlled the Suez Canal, but considering the assets invested, still small scale.

Well it's fairly obvious that the Eastern Front was an huge engagement but by the same token I'd also hardly call operations such as Crusader, Tobruk and the battles of El Alamein "small-scale".

To be honest I'm not sure whether you are doing a bit of trolling in an attempt to be contrary and stir things up a bit or whether you truly believe that because you're not interested in something why on earth anybody else possibly could be. There's a great many topics and threads here at the Lounge which I don't have the slightest interest in nor could give a monkey's about but I don't personally feel the need to go posting in them to state the fact.

I think it's safe to say though that everybody has a very good idea now that you're not interested in any new books about the BoB, that you don't think people need to buy any more and that the BoB wasn't of great strategic importance. I disagree with all these points but hey, we have heard you.

[Spitfire]

Bravo Smithy :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap - and thank you.

[Chas]

No debate allowed. I see.

[Kitty_Sheridan]

I've been researching local Yorkshire pilots role in the BoB for about 15 years and to this day new info turns up!

Christ, the English civil war was over 400 years ago but they still find new things to write about.


On a lighter note, I like the slug balancing act!

K

[Spitfire]

No debate allowed. I see.

C'mon Chas, there is nothing to debate here.
You've said very clearly what you think about new books on Battle of Britain -and the people who buy and read them.

You've also stated that you think Battle of Britain was nothing to write (home) about.

We are some who feels differently.

What do you want - a trenchwar?

[Spitfire]

Smithy - do you happen to know when the new edition of Ken Wynn: "The men of the Battle of Britain" will be released?

[Smithy]

Smithy - do you happen to know when the new edition of Ken Wynn: "The men of the Battle of Britain" will be released?

Søren, you've reminded me it's high time I gave Ken a bell about it!

Last I spoke with him, he was looking at a release date for September but he acknowledged that this was dependent upon the publisher.

I'll give him a ring this week and see if he's got a firm date now.

[Jabos]

I love this thread. I'm not well read on the BoB and I certainly appreciate the discussion and book suggestions.

[Chas]

Now, I WILL be reading this. Anybody who examines and questions the myths sorrounding the event does deserve my attention, if not my hard earned $$.

BoB - Richard Overy (http://www.amazon.ca/Battle-Britain-Richard-Overy/dp/0141018305)


To the library!

[Smithy]

Now, I WILL be reading this. Anybody who examines and questions the myths sorrounding the event does deserve my attention, if not my hard earned $$.

BoB - Richard Overy (http://www.amazon.ca/Battle-Britain-Richard-Overy/dp/0141018305)


To the library!

One of the better more succinct treatises on the BoB to come out over the last few years. It's not what you would call the definitive narrative of the Battle but it does go some way to questioning the mythology and a number of popular misconceptions about the BoB, and is an amalgam of ideas which have been bandied around over the the last decade or so.

So there you go Chas, even you might have found a newish book about the BoB which has some new things to add to about the BoB.

[Spitfire]

Now, I WILL be reading this. Anybody who examines and questions the myths sorrounding the event does deserve my attention, if not my hard earned $$.

BoB - Richard Overy (http://www.amazon.ca/Battle-Britain-Richard-Overy/dp/0141018305)


To the library!

Read it last year. As far as I remember, it was a good read. Allthough it wasn't as revealing as I thought/hoped it would be.
Enjoy!

And while I am here: I have just strated up on Matthew Parkers The battle of Britain. I think I am going to like it, being a sucker for personal stories and testimonials. It looks like Parker is going to follow the route of Cornelius Ryan (The longest day) and introduce the reader to more and more people as the battle evolves and then follw them through to the end...it looks very promising!!!!

[Smithy]

Read it last year. As far as I remember, it was a good read. Allthough it wasn't as revealing as I thought/hoped it would be.
Enjoy!

And while I am here: I have just strated up on Matthew Parkers The battle of Britain. I think I am going to like it, being a sucker for personal stories and testimonials. It looks like Parker is going to follow the route of Cornelius Ryan (The longest day) and introduce the reader to more and more people as the battle evolves and then follw them through to the end...it looks very promising!!!!

I read this not long after it came out Spitty. The memory's a bit fuzzy but IIRC it did a very good job of intertwining personal stories with the history. If you like this sort of thing Craig and Clayton's "Finest Hour" isn't a bad one either, following ordinary people's accounts of the BoB and the Blitz.

I might just have to dig out Parker's book from the book shelf and read it again ;)

And I just received my copy of Overy's "The BoB Experience". Beautifully presented and laid out in the landscape format. Obviously haven't had time to read it properly yet but looks good (if a little light but then that's the nature of the book) and the facsimiles of original documents is a very nice touch.

[Chas]

The heroic narratives tend to perpetuate the myths IMHO. From what I understand, from Overy is saying, the Brits didn't even come close to losing the BoB. So it wasn't "The Few", it was "The Quite A Few". But I will reserve further comment 'til I finish it.

Tally ho.

[Smithy]

The heroic narratives tend to perpetuate the myths IMHO. From what I understand, from Overy is saying, the Brits didn't even come close to losing the BoB. So it wasn't "The Few", it was "The Quite A Few". But I will reserve further comment 'til I finish it.

Tally ho.

The heroic narrative thing had largely disappeared from serious BoB studies around the 1970s .

I think you'll find that Overy doesn't say "the Brits didn't even come close to losing the BoB" but rather that a German invasion was extremely unlikely very much for the reasons I listed above in my earlier reply to you and that it was German air superiority over Britain which was ultimately stopped. As I said before it's not a bad little volume at all, being a good distillation of contemporary BoB analyses. In truth though it's a tad light but not a bad read to start leading into more indepth and exhaustive studies.

[Kitty_Sheridan]

Have a good look at some of the photos, those chaps were bloody exhausted..I've interviewed them, and the WAAF's and from my point of view if we hadnt had some of the pre-war RAF and Polish pilots who did have the experience I'm not sure of the outcome.

It was still a close run thing and to be quite honest I find it more than a little offensive that it is being suggested otherwise!


Don't let's start re-writing history, it demeans Them.

Kate

[Smithy]

Have a good look at some of the photos, those chaps were bloody exhausted

I agree entirely with you Kate. Most of those very young men were flying up to 5 combat sorties a day, were up at around 4 in the morning and very often not released until late evening. Also because of the nature of defending Britain Park et al had to be very careful about the commitment of squadrons on raids and as a result you have the usual incidence where on interception, the RAF flights/squadrons were grossly outnumbered. They are heroes in my book and always will be.

[Spitfire]

The heroic narratives tend to perpetuate the myths IMHO. From what I understand, from Overy is saying, the Brits didn't even come close to losing the BoB. So it wasn't "The Few", it was "The Quite A Few". But I will reserve further comment 'til I finish it.

Tally ho.

1:4 is few in my book!

Kitty: BRAVO!

[Smithy]

The books are coming thick and fast this week!

Just got aviation artist, Robert Taylor's Battle of Britain Collection which is a wonderful new hardback with his BoB paintings and drawings and accompanying text. I'm a bit of a fan of his paintings as I have his "Battle of Britain VC". The book does a brilliant job of reproducing his artworks and it really is a little visual stunner of a book. (Spitty I know you would like this one ;) )

[Spitfire]

I spotted it too - but I was only wondering if I did not allready have reproductions of all - or most of - the paintings, since I have the three volume book of his.

[PADDY]

The great thing about members who are *enthusiastic* about a subject area (in this case the BoB air war) is that it flags up things that other members (such as myself) were not aware of, and it points the likes of *me* in the direction of resources and books that I'd be interested in reading.

There is no ONE DEFINITIVE read on these things Gents (My goodness, it would be boring if there was anyway!!). It's an ongoing *work-in-progress* of continuous discovery and as one learns more, one wants to learn more! like an inverted pyramid, start with all the BIG STUFF and then start focusing down on all the smaller details.

But I must say, I'm quite in awe of the knowledge base of some of you chaps here, and it really wets my appetite to learn more about this chapter in history. If fortress Britain had fallen, then the geo-political map of the world would look very different today.

I'll keep an eye out for this new book!

BT NOTE: Thanks for keeping a measured, balanced and gentlemanly *lid* on discussing things here. Points 'can' be made quite effectively without the need to ridicule or be judgemental towards others. Cheers Gents.

[Smithy]

I spotted it too - but I was only wondering if I did not allready have reproductions of all - or most of - the paintings, since I have the three volume book of his.

You probably will have a lot of them then Søren but have a look at amazon uk as the "look inside" feature means that you will be able to see from the table of contents which paintings are included. Saying that, the book does have a large amount of Taylor's drawings as well and also quite a substantial text for each painting. I'm very impressed with it as it's very nicely done.


There is no ONE DEFINITIVE read on these things Gents (My goodness, it would be boring if there was anyway!!). It's an ongoing *work-in-progress* of continuous discovery and as one learns more, one wants to learn more! like an inverted pyramid, start with all the BIG STUFF and then start focusing down on all the smaller details.

You have hit the nail on the head Paddy old boy. Like any passion or interest, you are always learning something new, even if it is merely a small detail, but it always spurs you on to read, learn and discover more.

[Spitfire]

Hi gents, I am trying to tack down a copy of Hugh Dundas: "Flying start" from 1990. Anybody read it? Any comments?
Thank you.

[Smithy]

I don't have it Søren but I got it out from the library years ago. Was very good although it's mostly his post-BoB exploits. Well respected bloke and worth having a read of his book.

Should be a copy floating around at abe.

[Spitfire]

I am halfway through James Holland: The Battle of Britain now.
What a book!!!!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
Holland has really done his homework and has a much broader perspective: The u-boat war, The role of the Royal navy, the industrial problems with building - not only enough planes - but all other warmaterial.
The politics and the leaders courage, mistakes and personal fouls. On both sides - including US.
I can only recommend this book.

[KilroyCD]

Hi gents, I am trying to tack down a copy of Hugh Dundas: "Flying start" from 1990. Anybody read it? Any comments?
Thank you.
Soren, if you can find a copy you will not be disappointed. I have a copy of the book which is signed by Hugh "Cocky" Dundas. He was a delight chap, and I had the pleasure of meeting him in 1990 at a B of B seminar. If you find a copy and read it you'll quickly find out he was quite the character during the war.

[Spitfire]

Soren, if you can find a copy you will not be disappointed. I have a copy of the book which is signed by Hugh "Cocky" Dundas. He was a delight chap, and I had the pleasure of meeting him in 1990 at a B of B seminar. If you find a copy and read it you'll quickly find out he was quite the character during the war.
Hi Kilroy - After my post I managed to got my hands on a copy, just haven't got around to read it yet. Must be next in line after james Holland. Good to have something to look forward to, eh? ;)

[Smithy]

I am halfway through James Holland: The Battle of Britain now.
What a book!!!!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
Holland has really done his homework and has a much broader perspective: The u-boat war, The role of the Royal navy, the industrial problems with building - not only enough planes - but all other warmaterial.
The politics and the leaders courage, mistakes and personal fouls. On both sides - including US.
I can only recommend this book.

I've started my copy and am enjoying it as well although I'm not very far through at this stage.

He seems to have included a lot about 609 Sqn but I suppose that it to be expected as he based the squadron parts of "The Burning Blue" on 609 and David Crook's memoir.

He's got a nice writing style as well.

[Prien]

To Spitfire:

How far into discussion w/ regards to the U-Boat war does Holland go? It may be a book that would interest me as well. :)

[Spitfire]

To Spitfire:

How far into discussion w/ regards to the U-Boat war does Holland go? It may be a book that would interest me as well. :)

He writes several pages on Prien and even more on the blocade of UK - just to mention some of it;)
Being an expert you might know most of it, but his book gives a much broader overview than just aeroplanes, takeoffs and kills. Even goes very deep into the warindustrial buildup of all armed forces on both sides and the politics behind it.

[Prien]

Oh - that sounds like a book definitely worth getting then. With regards to the industrial buildup and the politics - It sounds like The Great Naval Game only in the time period of WWII. The Great Naval Game is just like that, the only difference is that it deals with the time period of the 1890's into WWI.

Thanks :)

[Smithy]

Just received the new illustrated edition of Stephen Bungay's "The Most Dangerous Enemy" today and it is simply wonderful.

The text has been edited and reduced from the original 2000 edition but the new version has a stack of new photos, diagrams and and is beautifully laid out.

I didn't agree with everything that Bungay wrote in the original TMDE but the scale of his research is never in doubt and it is essential reading for BoB enthusiasts.

New readers could get away with just owning this new edition and owners of the original should pick this up for the breadth of new photos and diagrams. All in all, very highly recommended.

[kiltie]

Any of you read a book called With Wings Like Eagles? It's written by Michael Korda and looks to have been released early last year.
I picked it up the other day, along with a couple of other books and, at the moment, it's pretty low on the priority list ( doing one called Masters of the Air that I don't want to just breeze through ). Just wondering if I should move it up in the queue.

[Smithy]

I've got it, although to be honest I haven't read it cover to cover, rather I read bits and pieces and picked at it. My impressions are, not a bad book, not a history nor a narration of the BoB as such, but a study of the major figures and the nature of the defence that Britain had established.

Oh, and it's got a cracking photo of 610's Spits on the cover :)

[kiltie]

Mixed fortunes are to be expected with my new books; a lot of impulse buys. Had a funny experience in a bar the other night. My wife and I were talking in broad terms about WWII in the Pacific. I remembered this thread and told her: "You need to get a specialty...something to focus on." Anyway, we're getting a little :p and, on a lark, get the bartender involved in our conversation. As luck would have it, the bartender is a Masters in History with an accent on the British Empire and a former combat Marine relatively recently discharged ( he'd fought in Iraq around '04, I think ). He's got a grip on military history...
Soooo...Nothing quite brings one's ignorance into shocking relief like that. The result was a groggy, cloudy trip to the bookstore the next day and too much money spent.
The BoB book and Masters of the Air are what I managed to escape with, whilst the wife had to hire a porter to carry out her new PTO library ( and some horrifying looking book about Nazi doctors... ). The moral of the story being: Don't engage in historical topics with Masters of History while half in the bag. Only slightly less important: don't attempt to compensate for your ignorance the next morning when you're still a little hazy.

[Spitfire]

Just received the new illustrated edition of Stephen Bungay's "The Most Dangerous Enemy" today and it is simply wonderful.

The text has been edited and reduced from the original 2000 edition but the new version has a stack of new photos, diagrams and and is beautifully laid out.

I didn't agree with everything that Bungay wrote in the original TMDE but the scale of his research is never in doubt and it is essential reading for BoB enthusiasts.

New readers could get away with just owning this new edition and owners of the original should pick this up for the breadth of new photos and diagrams. All in all, very highly recommended.

Just received my copy this morning. Looking really good.

[Corky]

Deadly skies: The bloody truth about the Battle of Britain 70 years on

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00406/4993697_406221s.jpg

Rarely in history has a battle been so mythologised as the conflict that took place in the skies above southern England between 10 July and 31 October 1940. But the truth about the Battle of Britain - and the brave young airmen who fought it - is far more complex, ruthless and bloody than we often care to remember.

By Robert Fisk

Click HERE (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/deadly-skies-the-bloody-truth-about-the-battle-of-britain-70-years-on-2015062.html) to continue reading the article

[Edward]

Interesting article, thanks for posting.

[Spitfire]

Thanks for sharing!

[Phantomfixer]

Yes, good article.

[Hereward]

So not only Gerry did naughty things in WWII.

[kampkatz]

Political ideas lead to war. That fact is an inherent human trait. There will always be wars and rumors of wars(as said by the purest pacifist in history).

[Talbot]

Just missed the anniversary of 'The Hardest Day'.

RIP

[JPH]

So not only Gerry did naughty things in WWII.

To quote the immortal bard;

"There is no king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all unspotted soldiers: some peradventure have on them the guilt of premeditated and contrived murder; some, of beguiling virgins with the broken seals of perjury; some, making the wars their bulwark, that have before gored the gentle bosom of peace with pillage and robbery. Now, if these men have defeated the law and outrun native punishment, though they can outstrip men, they have no wings to fly from God: war is his beadle, war is vengeance; so that here men are punished for before-breach of the king's laws in now the king's quarrel: where they feared the death, they have borne life away; and where they would be safe, they perish: then if they die unprovided, no more is the king guilty of their damnation than he was before guilty of those impieties for the which they are now visited. Every subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's soul is his own."

King Henry the Fifth Act IV, Scene 1

Joseph

[Story]

Just so everyone has a clear image of who wrote that article.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fisking

The word is derived from articles written by Robert Fisk that were easily refuted, and refers to a point-by-point debunking of lies and/or idiocies.
Here we have a great example of a fisking of a clearly biased writer.

[Spitfire]

70 years ago the battle raged in the sky over the southcoast of England and to celeberate this, tons of books are out now.
But which to choose?

Here are my favourit five:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51ESVNRE9AL__SL500_AA300_.jpg

An oldie but goodie. Filled with facts, day-to-day and then and now. The book is rather old, but a must for the afficionado.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51esGRoh0eL__BO2204203200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-clickTopRight35-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg

The new illustrated edition is great. I am not on the level with everything in here - but heck. It's a masterpiece.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51mjpUt2ipL__BO2204203200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-clickTopRight35-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg

Great concept, great photos, documents and letters, maps in a great layout - the best "coffetable book" on BoB.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51j9hKTJHIL__SL500_AA300_-2.jpg

James Holland is such a great writer. This book is almost like a novel - but it's all for real. If you only buy one book on the subject, this could be it.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/51R4D2WhecL__SL500_AA300_.jpg

Maybe it's my personal favourit.
Written and spoken by the pilots who were there. Draws from letters, radio interviews just a few days after the dogfight and memoirbooks and diaries.
It's so true and so vibrating - almost like talking with the pilots.
It's their own words and their fears and humor that strikes you.
Extremely personal accounts and thought on flying and killing or getting killed.

[Smithy]

Gosh how to narrow it down to a few. Here's mine:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y56W7Y9ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I know Ken so I might be a tad biased but this is simply astounding. And the new 3rd edition is just about to be released.


http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/23/ec/9625017b42a0381e5bb91210.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

This is the book I still recommend to those who don't know the first thing about the BoB. A brilliant introduction but make sure you get this 1990 edition which has an eye-watering amount of photos, maps, diagrams, etc.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FS6E1QDXL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg

My favourite BoB memoir. An absolute classic.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wgLysL%2BsL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg

Like Søren I have this on my list but I'd go for the original edition which has not been shortened and had the text reduced. The scale of research in this is mind-boggling. Less pictures but more meat.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519WP3HMZ0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Probably the first independent account of the BoB. An oldie but a goodie and the starting point for virtually every new book that is written.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ESVNRE9AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Like Søren, this is on my list. Nothing more to say but brilliant.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A6N7NDN0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Very worthwhile and enlightening read for those wanting to dig a little deeper.

Better stop there as I could list another half dozen more. I'm tempted to add "Last of the Few" but Søren has covered that one. Great book.

[kampkatz]

Thanks for the comprehensive list.

[Spitfire]

Oh yes - how could I forget: First Light is a MASTERPIECE!
(And Wynn's 3 edition is on my need-to-have-list)

[W4ASZ]

The Wizard War by R.V. Jones, also published as Most Secret War is. in my opinion, essential reading on how British science gave an edge against the Luftwaffe bombers, among other things.

Jones is said to have responded to Churchill's request that he become chief of air-defense scientific intelligence by saying, "A man in that position could lose the war ---I'll take it."

Your favorites have been noted, and thank you.

[Dudleydoright]

'Fighter Pilot' by Paul Richey, whilst not of the BoB as such, is a very good account of the events leading up to the BoB. Fall of France etc.

'Piece of Cake' is a rippingly good read and, if I remember correctly, is a great 'factional' book of the BoB. Great characterisations and dialogues and period feel. Pretty much anything written by him is a good read. I mention him as, Soren, you didn't make a distinction between fact and fictional books .

But then you probably all knew of these little gems anyways. :)

Dave

[PADDY]

As some of you may already know, the BBC are running a series of programmes in commemoration of The Battle of Britain and The Blitz.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/comingup/first-light/

Part of that will be a screening of FIRST LIGHT (Based on the book by Geoffrey Wellum). In fact some of our members (Nigel) had a role in it, as did Pip I believe.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz260/ROSSANDHARRY2/DUXFORD%202010/DUXFORD2010005.jpg

[Smithy]

In fact some of our members (Nigel) had a role in it, as did Pip I believe.


And our Miss Sis Paddy! I hope that she doesn't mind my putting in a plug for her appearance as well ;)

[PADDY]

Saved my bacon there mate!! I'd never hear the end of it ;) Well done Miss Sis!! So all-in-all, a pretty good showing from TFL..!

[Spitfire]

Anybody knows when this First Light is going on air - and the next question: Since it will (propably) not be shown on danish TV, can anybody make a DVD of it?
Or is it possible to buy it on DVD somewhere?

[PADDY]

Soren. I'm sure one of the boys here will be able to tape it onto DvD for you (there's also BBC iPLAYER, not sure if you can get that on the internet?). If I had the facility, I'd tape it for you, but sadly I don't.
It's showing 'sometime' this month, but I cannot find out 'exactly when.'

[PADDY]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/battle_of_britain

Keep and eye on this for BATTLE OF BRITAIN.

[Naphtali]

I enjoy Len Deighton's book, Spitfire.

[PADDY]

First Light Tuesday 14 September
9:00pm - 10:20pm
BBC2
Docudrama based on the personal memoirs of Geoffrey Wellum, an RAF pilot who fought in the Battle of Britain with the legendary 92 Squadron. His experiences in combat serve as intense rites of passage, but as time goes by it becomes clear that the price of victory can often be an unbearable loss. Starring Sam Heughan.
VIDEO Plus+: 3940066
Subtitled, Widescreen, Audio-described

Cast
Boy - Sam Heughan
Older Boy - Geoffrey Wellum
Brian Kingcombe - Ben Aldridge
Tommy Lund - Alex Robertson
Mac - Gary Lewis
Bevington - Paul Kynman
Davy - Paul Tinto
Trevor `Wimpy' Wade - Jordan Bernarde
Drummond - Alex Waldmann
Grace - Tuppence Middleton
Dad - Richard Walsh

[Spitfire]

'Fighter Pilot' by Paul Richey, whilst not of the BoB as such, is a very good account of the events leading up to the BoB. Fall of France etc.

'Piece of Cake' is a rippingly good read and, if I remember correctly, is a great 'factional' book of the BoB. Great characterisations and dialogues and period feel. Pretty much anything written by him is a good read. I mention him as, Soren, you didn't make a distinction between fact and fictional books .

But then you probably all knew of these little gems anyways. :)

Dave

Piece of Cake is my favourit fiction novel - and TV series - too.

[Kitty_Sheridan]

Mainly filmed at Twinwood Paddy with our boys.
:-D

[Miss Sis]

I am in it as WAAF who walks past Wellum in corridor - unless I end up on the cutting room floor! lol. Twinwoods was freezing, as usual!

Several members of one of our groups did various scenes. They have already mentioned that there are inaccuracies that were pointed out to the director etc, who ignored them and went with his own thoughts. Oh well. [huh]

Still hope it will be a good yarn. I've been told the book is excellent.

[aswatland]

I'm really looking forward to this programme as I really enjoyed First Light, which is one of the best accounts of the BoB. It will be interesting to see how well accurate the aircraft are for 1939-40.

[PADDY]

Yes, I was told by one of the reenactors who were involved in the project that *details* were questioned (like Control Towers) when the Director wanted to film things and essentially the reenactors *(who knew their stuff inside out) were over ruled, because "even though it's inaccurate, it makes for a better photograph...etc" Which must be annoying, as it becomes something akin to "How Hollywood sees it..." rather than "how it actually looked and happened."

Anyway, any programme that can turn the spotlight on this period of history has got to be applauded and I dare say it's still "A Ripping Yarn!"

[Smithy]

I've seen a little clip of it and it looks amazing. They've used some shots from 1969's BoB so the aircraft codes used are AI instead of 92's QJ. Apart from that it looks brilliant, and I mean, brilliant.

[PADDY]

The gratitude of every home in our Island, in our Empire, and indeed throughout the world, except in the abodes of the guilty, goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unwearied in their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of the world war by their prowess and by their devotion. Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.
- Sir Winston S. Churchill (Prime Minister).

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[Smithy]

Nobody could put it better than the big man himself Paddy, well posted.

And here's a little treat for all of you. This is the teaser clip of First Light that I saw and which the production company has posted up on their site for it.

Enjoy!

http://www.liontv.com/London/Productions/First-Light

[PADDY]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/Parup_2006/TallyHo1600-2.jpg

Let's never forget The Few.

For me, the Hurricane really does pip the Spitfire to the post! I just love the old wood and canvas, the fact that 'to the eye' it doesn't look all perfect symmetry and streamlined beauty...I do LOVE this little beautiful workhorse that is too often over shadowed by the more glamorous Spitfire.

[PADDY]

Part of the Shuttleworth Collection, at Old Warden Airfield, Bedfordshire (near Cambridge).

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz260/ROSSANDHARRY2/ShuttleworthCollection031.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz260/ROSSANDHARRY2/ShuttleworthCollection034.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz260/ROSSANDHARRY2/ShuttleworthCollection032.jpg

[Spitfire]

As a BoB pilot once said:
The Spitfire is a Greyhound - the Hurricane is a Bulldog.

[Smithy]

As a BoB pilot once said:
The Spitfire is a Greyhound - the Hurricane is a Bulldog.

That was Geoff Page of 56 ;)

[Marv]

I have to agree with Paddy, the Hurricane is also my favourite aircraft and even though the Spitfire, with all it's grace and speed just doesn't quite beat the good old tough, stable Hurricane.
Plus the fact that (possibly due to more numbers hurris in the sky than spits) scored the majority of kills during BoB.

[Story]

http://militarytrader.com/article/RAF-Museum-to-restore-Battle-of-Britain-survivor

A rare German wartime bomber has been discovered on the Goodwin Sands, 70 years after it was shot down during the height of the Battle of Britain. With a crew of four and loaded with 2000 lbs. of bombs, the aircraft, a twin-engined Dornier 17 - known universally as "The Flying Pencil" - was part of a large enemy formation intercepted by RAF fighter aircraft at midday on Aug. 26, 1940, as they attempted to attack airfields in Essex.

http://militarytrader.com/upload/images/MV_Images/2010%20MV%20News/aircraftimage.jpg

Gotta put a plug in for Military Trader - good magazine, worth picking up if only to check out one issue.

[Speedster]

Exciting!

Tried to test BBC iPlayer but only got the message: "Not available in your area", so guess you have to have a UK based computer in order to watch and download.

Hope it will eventually find it's way to Danish television or be available on DVD.


First Light Tuesday 14 September
9:00pm - 10:20pm
BBC2
Docudrama based on the personal memoirs of Geoffrey Wellum, an RAF pilot who fought in the Battle of Britain with the legendary 92 Squadron. His experiences in combat serve as intense rites of passage, but as time goes by it becomes clear that the price of victory can often be an unbearable loss. Starring Sam Heughan.
VIDEO Plus+: 3940066
Subtitled, Widescreen, Audio-described

Cast
Boy - Sam Heughan
Older Boy - Geoffrey Wellum
Brian Kingcombe - Ben Aldridge
Tommy Lund - Alex Robertson
Mac - Gary Lewis
Bevington - Paul Kynman
Davy - Paul Tinto
Trevor `Wimpy' Wade - Jordan Bernarde
Drummond - Alex Waldmann
Grace - Tuppence Middleton
Dad - Richard Walsh

[PADDY]

FIRST LIGHT showing.

[W4ASZ]

The anniversary of when it did not happen :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/06/hitler-invasion-of-britain

It is a good thing to have had enough heroes at the critical moment.

Americans remember and honor them and their sacrifice.

[Spitfire]

15. september.
Allthough the few are getting fewer, we must never forget.
Thank you!

[PADDY]

I haven't seen any 'WINGS' for sale as is the custom, but I have a pair of sweetheart wings that I'll wear on my lapel today (and my Uncle's 'SHINEY TEN' Squadron lapel badge).

[Smithy]

Yes the 15th September...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Plakat1940.jpg

[Smithy]

The Few are getting fewer.

Article from the Daily Mail showing the 79 members still with us today...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1313354/The-glorious-Few-70-years-In-1940-planes-courage-stood-Britain-Nazi-domination.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Edward]

I'm really looking forward to this programme as I really enjoyed First Light, which is one of the best accounts of the BoB. It will be interesting to see how well accurate the aircraft are for 1939-40.


I must check out the iPlayer and see if it is still on there. I wouldn't be able to tell whether the details of the planes were correct (I can distinguish a Hurricane from a Spitfire, but that's the limit of it), though I'd have a good go with the Irvins. Had to smile recently while watching the old Sixties Battle of Britain film on DVD when I caught myself critiquing the inaccuracies in the Irvins being sported (mostly 42 pattern jackets, with a few late war, multi-panel items thrown in - probably, at that time, a lot of them were originals). lol

[Miss Sis]

Edward, don't get me started on the hideous 1960s hairdos on the women in 'Battle of Britain'! And I've only ever seen clips of the film and not the whole thing.

The hair and make up people who did that should have been taken out the back and shot....

I think you might have missed First Light on iPlayer now, as it was broadcast more than a week ago.

[Smithy]

Had to smile recently while watching the old Sixties Battle of Britain film on DVD when I caught myself critiquing the inaccuracies in the Irvins being sported (mostly 42 pattern jackets, with a few late war, multi-panel items thrown in - probably, at that time, a lot of them were originals). lol

Christopher Plummer's is the most inaccurate, obviously being a prop department knock up job. Lacks even the asymmetrical collar pattern.

Great movie though.

[Smithy]

I had the very great pleasure of attending the BoB 70th anniversary service here yesterday which was organised by the Air Force Association. And the weather as if knowing the fact put on a simply stunning, sunny, cloudless day - much like many of those days 70 years ago. Superb day and quite moving.

[B-24J]

In Wing Co. Guy Gibson's book "Enemy Coast Ahead" he talks about the RAF's bombing campaign against the German invasion barges during the BoB. If anyone knows of a good book which examines this campaign in detail please let me know. Thanks, John

[Smithy]

In Wing Co. Guy Gibson's book "Enemy Coast Ahead" he talks about the RAF's bombing campaign against the German invasion barges during the BoB. If anyone knows of a good book which examines this campaign in detail please let me know. Thanks, John

Many BoB books such as Bungay's,Holland's et al cover this (albeit in many cases briefly) but Larry Donnelly's "The Other Few" is the only book seriously dedicated to the subject.

If you wait a bit as well, Paul Tweddle's "The Other Battle of Britain" is due to be published next year.

As Churchill said, "The fighters are our salvation but the bombers alone provide the means of victory.”

[B-24J]

Thank you Smithy, Just ordered "The Other Few" and "First Light" from Amazon UK. Hopefully the BBC will soon have their "First Light" out on DVD. Regards, John

[Smithy]

Thank you Smithy, Just ordered "The Other Few" and "First Light" from Amazon UK. Hopefully the BBC will soon have their "First Light" out on DVD. Regards, John

You're very welcome John.

You are especially in for a treat with "First Light" - it's a cracking read, my favourite BoB memoir.

[Miss Sis]

Thank you Smithy, Just ordered "The Other Few" and "First Light" from Amazon UK. Hopefully the BBC will soon have their "First Light" out on DVD. Regards, John

It was made by Lion Television for the BBC. You may be able to buy it from them at some point.

[Smithy]

Just received Henry Buckton's "Voices from the Battle of Britain" today which looks to be a nice read complete with some previously unpublished photos.

But one thing which really pees me off is the front cover photo which is of a 611 Sqn Spitfire IX from 1942! There's a lot of this going on with books of late, Holland's BoB book had a post BoB Spit on the cover and Patrick Bishop's latest from last year had a photo from 1941 as the front cover image (along with post BoB RAF C-type fuselage roundels as section dividers). There are a lot of excellent BoB images available but the bloody jacket designers (who obviously don't know the first thing) plonk any old image on the cover.

Sorry for the rant but it's something which gets on my goat.

Front cover aside though, Buckton's book at first flick through looks to be a goodie.

[Spitfire]

You are so right, Tim. A bad cover can spoil everything. I actually did not buy a book once, because of a bad cover design - filled with faults like you just mention.
It's a shame wwhen the author goes through a lot of trouble to get everything right - and the designer just doesn't give a ....:mad:
Maybe they should talk.

[Dixon Cannon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11465245

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/8004828/RAFs-Central-Band-Reach-for-the-Skies.html

-dixon cannon