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avedwards
09-01-2009, 02:27 PM
There are few things I always notice about Poirot when he wears lounge suits:
-He only wears peaked lapeled three piece suits (DB or SB).
-He always wears wing-neck collared shirts.
-He always wears bowties.
-Without exception he always wears shirts with cufflinks.
-Needless to say a pocket square is always there, neatly folded.

As well as that he always obeys evening dress codes properly. He wears both black tie and white tie in a completely satorially correct way, except that I've never seen him in a top hat (though the white tie occaisions he attends are usually only indoors). I've never seen any episodes where he has to wear morning dress so I can't comment on how well he does there.

His headwear choice is usually either a grey felt homburg or a straw homburg. He uses accessories like a pocket watch, a fancy cigar case and a walking stick.

However, perhaps he goes too far. A wing-neck collar and bowtie every day could be a bit much maybe? And his over-carefullness packing clothes also seemed too much IMO when he told off a hotel maid for not folding a tie correctly. Or even worse, wearing a three piece suit on the beach. What also made me laugh was the way he waxes his moustache (which is Belgium, not French [bad]).

So who thinks Poirot is a well dressed gentleman and who thinks that Poirot is an overdressed dandy?

Brian Sheridan
09-01-2009, 05:15 PM
Yes - he is! lol

Bugsy
09-01-2009, 10:16 PM
Perhaps we'd better keep in mind the time period in which the stories are set, and the fact that the character is fictional. He can be whatever Christie wants him to be.

Marc Chevalier
09-01-2009, 10:40 PM
He's a dandy in the 1920s Adolphe Menjou mold, complete with waxed moustache.


Less portly and less bald, he could be Menjou's twin.



.

Max Flash
09-01-2009, 11:04 PM
Of course, it should be remembered that he is a television character, and as such is portrayed in the way that the stylist working on that programme believed all men dressed in the 1920s (when the stories are set). Now, it may well be that Christie intended for him to be portrayed that way (I do not have sufficient knowledge of the books to comment any further) and for him to be fastidiously dressed at all times. However, the reality is that someone of the time would have been more varied in their attire, appearing smarter at times than others.

Tomasso
09-01-2009, 11:13 PM
He's a dandy in the 1920s Adolphe Menjou mold,

.And Captain Hastings brings to mind Gary Cooper.



http://dvd.easycinema.com/easy/images/products/0/12720-large.jpg

benstephens
09-01-2009, 11:46 PM
I always thought that they dressed him along the line's of Christies descriptions. I believe in the books he was fastidious towards clothes as well.

He is definitely a dandy, however, in the 1920s it was not uncommon to see people in wing tipped collars, even whilst wearing lounge suits. You still would have seen many older people in morning suits during the day as well, so, especially the early 1920s there was quite a transition period between styles.

Penultimately, I do not think there is anything wrong with the way Poirot dresses, he was supposed to be slightly eccentric and dandy.

Kindest Regards

Ben

avedwards
09-02-2009, 12:55 AM
Of course, it should be remembered that he is a television character, and as such is portrayed in the way that the stylist working on that programme believed all men dressed in the 1920s (when the stories are set). Now, it may well be that Christie intended for him to be portrayed that way (I do not have sufficient knowledge of the books to comment any further) and for him to be fastidiously dressed at all times. However, the reality is that someone of the time would have been more varied in their attire, appearing smarter at times than others.
In the films it's usually the case that other characters are dressed more "normally" but he's the one who overdresses, such as by wearing a suit on the beach. Most of the characters usually dress like Hastings in the photo above - a suit and turn down collar shirt and tie. My question was whether those of us who are into vintage clothing and who regularly wear suits would consider him overdressed.

Edward
09-02-2009, 05:25 AM
I always had the impression the stories were set into the thirties, or is that someting I have picked up from the television?

I always had the impression that Poirot was a bit of a dandy (like most of us, really....), but his dress always struck me as more in the mode of someone who preferred a classic style of dress and didn't feel the need to move on with changing fashion. Rather like those of us who prefer to wear black tie at "black tie optional" events.

benstephens
09-02-2009, 05:34 AM
Hi Edward,

I may be wrong but did Poirot not first appear in the "The Mysterious Affair at Styles", which I think was published in the very early 20s, and possibly written by her even earlier. She describes him as a "meticoulius and tidy little man..."


hence why I assumed his style was much more in keeping with late Edwardian.

Kindest Regards

Ben

cookie
09-02-2009, 06:55 AM
Poirot first appears in Christie in 1916-18. The rest of the Poirot books are set in the1920s. The TV series use artistic licence to set it in the more interesting 30s with all the Art Deco houses/sets etc but he still dresses like a Walloon fop in the 20s style!

LordBest
09-02-2009, 07:19 AM
Christie actually describes him as an impeccably neat dandy at some point, but in later books (ie those set in the 50s through 70s his appearance is terribly out of fashion and somewhat less festidious.
I often wonder about his embroidered waistcoats, I'd like one but I do wonder if they would be a little over the top.

cupcake
09-02-2009, 10:02 PM
What also made me laugh was the way he waxes his moustache (which is Belgium, not French [bad]).



Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Poirot was in fact, Belgian?
I remember an episode where someone says something along the lines of calling him a stinking "frog". He corrects them by saying that's stinking BELGIAN

Slim Portly
09-02-2009, 10:56 PM
...So who thinks Poirot is a well dressed gentleman and who thinks that Poirot is an overdressed dandy?
I won't claim to be a gentlman of any sort, well-dressed or otherwise, but Monsieur Poirot is to me the quintessence of how a man should dress.

cookie
09-04-2009, 10:11 AM
I won't claim to be a gentlman of any sort, well-dressed or otherwise, but Monsieur Poirot is to me the quintessence of how a man should dress.


He would say that wouldn't he?:D ;)

avedwards
09-04-2009, 10:32 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Poirot was in fact, Belgian?
I remember an episode where someone says something along the lines of calling him a stinking "frog". He corrects them by saying that's stinking BELGIAN
Correct, but the reference was because Poirot frequently corrects peole for assuming his moustache is French.

avedwards
09-04-2009, 10:32 AM
I won't claim to be a gentlman of any sort, well-dressed or otherwise, but Monsieur Poirot is to me the quintessence of how a man should dress.
I thought you would say that. Your ensembles often seem quite Poirot-like in their meticulous neatness.

Torpedo
09-04-2009, 11:23 AM
Correct, but the reference was because Poirot frequently corrects peole for assuming his moustache is French.

In fact, Poirot corrects people because they assume he is French, and address him so (or with the derogative term "frog") but he is Belgian.

This would be a typical interchange (not meant to be verbatim):

"Why had you to put your nose in my affairs, you darn little frog?"
"Darn little Belgian, if you please, sir!"

Torpedo
09-04-2009, 11:51 AM
Regarding the original question, Poirot is thus described in the original source (the novels):

"The neatness of his attire was almost incredible; I believe a speck of dust would have caused him more pain than a bullet wound. Yet this quaint dandified little man who, I was sorry to see, now limped badly, had been in his time one of the most celebrated members of the Belgian police."

As years pass, Poirot's appearance, regarded as fastidious during his early career, is hopelessly out of fashion later in his career.

Of course, out of fashion is not the same as out of style, a statement, no doubt, many loungers, myself included, will concur with.:D

avedwards
09-04-2009, 02:59 PM
Regarding the original question, Poirot is thus described in the original source (the novels):

"The neatness of his attire was almost incredible; I believe a speck of dust would have caused him more pain than a bullet wound. Yet this quaint dandified little man who, I was sorry to see, now limped badly, had been in his time one of the most celebrated members of the Belgian police."

As years pass, Poirot's appearance, regarded as fastidious during his early career, is hopelessly out of fashion later in his career.

Of course, out of fashion is not the same as out of style, a statement, no doubt, many loungers, myself included, will concur with.:D
I can quite agree there. My point is only that while arguably in style, his attire can be very impractical. He is not the man to chase a suspect or fire a gun in case it would spoil his clothes. That's where I prefer detectives like Philip Marlowe who is well dressed (his suits are complemented on a few occaisions) but still able to remain practical. Plus he wears a fedora and trench coat which I like to. However, Poirot is the neatest and most methodical of the lot, and he can always rely on Hastings to do any physical work.

Edward
09-05-2009, 03:47 AM
Of course, Poirot and Marlowe moved in very different worlds! There's definitely a rich, unexploited vein of comedy gold there - imagine the hard-boiled Marlowe in an English Edwardian country-house setting.... lol


Hi Edward,

I may be wrong but did Poirot not first appear in the "The Mysterious Affair at Styles", which I think was published in the very early 20s, and possibly written by her even earlier. She describes him as a "meticoulius and tidy little man..."


hence why I assumed his style was much more in keeping with late Edwardian.

Kindest Regards

Ben

Ben, quite right - from what you and others have said, I'm clearly overly influenced by the television. I think my Poirot is more Suchet than Christie ;)

Ephraim Tutt
09-05-2009, 04:01 AM
Isn't this Poirot?

http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes-12/EvilUnderSun44.jpeg

Brian Sheridan
09-05-2009, 08:48 AM
Of course, Poirot and Marlowe moved in very different worlds! There's definitely a rich, unexploited vein of comedy gold there - imagine the hard-boiled Marlowe in an English Edwardian country-house setting.... lol

That kind of already happened - The 1978 remake of The Big Sleep by English director Michael Winner. In an updated story, Marlowe was London based and visited English mansions. Since he went to college and "can still speak English when it is needed", he faired just fine. Marlowe always had manners, unlike Sam Spade.

Edward
09-05-2009, 12:14 PM
That kind of already happened - The 1978 remake of The Big Sleep by English director Michael Winner. In an updated story, Marlowe was London based and visited English mansions. Since he went to college and "can still speak English when it is needed", he faired just fine. Marlowe always had manners, unlike Sam Spade.

I find it hard to imagine without Bogart!

Brian Sheridan
09-06-2009, 06:35 AM
I find it hard to imagine without Bogart!

So did a majority of the movie-going public. And Robert Mitchum reprised Marlowe. A wasted opportunity. Sorry for going OT.


And now we resume our regularly scheduled thread.....

Ethan Bentley
09-09-2009, 09:27 AM
Yes he's a dandy but he's the smartest one I know of. I like his cane with a pop-out magnifier.

chanteuseCarey
09-09-2009, 10:04 AM
Gents, then it sounds like if I want to know what he was envisioned to be I read the books. If I want to drool over the "movie-fied" clothes of the 30s and the Art Deco settings, I rent the dvds. Yes?

Slim Portly
09-09-2009, 07:06 PM
I thought you would say that. Your ensembles often seem quite Poirot-like in their meticulous neatness.
A high compliment. I thank you, sir.

Ethan Bentley
09-10-2009, 03:36 AM
Gents, then it sounds like if I want to know what he was envisioned to be I read the books. If I want to drool over the "movie-fied" clothes of the 30s and the Art Deco settings, I rent the dvds. Yes?

Exactly, I suggest you read a few books first to establish you own picture of the characters.

BinkieBaumont
09-10-2009, 04:01 AM
"Poirot (the Character) is rather "Stuck" in the 20's, whilst the Tv Series is rather set in the mid 30's which was rather" Moderne" remember in the episode the "Spanish Chest" an interfering old Lady , is at the Cocktail party where the murder has already happened!!! but is delighted when taking to the dance floor, with Poirot, he starts going into a "Two Step" in spats!!!

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/site_furniture/2008/02/29/poirot230.jpg

Tiller
09-23-2009, 08:27 PM
I would say Poirot is both a well dressed gentleman, and a dandy. He stays with his style despite the changing times he lives in, which is why some people think he is "overdressed" in the stories (often commenting on the strange little man). I love the fact that Poirot survives till 1975, although Christie didn't plan him to survive that long, and thought of him as an old man even in her first story (I doubt after writing the Mysterious Affairs at Styles in 1916, Christie would have predicted she would still be writing stories about him until 1972). Since he is old fashion even in the teens I think it's great fun having him around in the 60's and 70's. It would be the same as Sherlock Holmes living into the 1950's, and solving mysteries in his sunset years and watching the culture clashes ensure. The Victorian with his Bohemian sensibilities clashing with the post World War II world.

The only problem I have with the later stories is the Poirot does very little "legwork" on his owns, although considering he would have to be at least in his late 90's by the 70's it's not hard to understand why. lol Of course the real reason that Poirot, became an armchair detective in the later stories was that Christie was tired of him lol.

David V
09-23-2009, 08:48 PM
By the very definition a "Dandy" is never over dressed.
Better dressed but never over dressed.

avedwards
09-24-2009, 12:09 AM
I would say Poirot is both a well dressed gentleman, and a dandy. He stays with his style despite the changing times he lives in, which is why some people think he is "overdressed" in the stories (often commenting on the strange little man). I love the fact that Poirot survives till 1975, although Christie didn't plan him to survive that long, and thought of him as an old man even in her first story (I doubt after writing the Mysterious Affairs at Styles in 1916, Christie would have predicted she would still be writing stories about him until 1972). Since he is old fashion even in the teens I think it's great fun having him around in the 60's and 70's. It would be the same as Sherlock Holmes living into the 1950's, and solving mysteries in his sunset years and watching the culture clashes ensure. The Victorian with his Bohemian sensibilities clashing with the post World War II world.
Holmes does solve crimes in the 1940s with Basil Rathbone playing him. Unlike Poirot I think Holmes would adapt to modern times though, a he dresses in fashion for Victorian times and uses what was then modern technology (a high power magnifying glass and a revolver sometimes).

Evan Everhart
10-16-2009, 10:57 AM
Holmes does solve crimes in the 1940s with Basil Rathbone playing him. Unlike Poirot I think Holmes would adapt to modern times though, a he dresses in fashion for Victorian times and uses what was then modern technology (a high power magnifying glass and a revolver sometimes).

The Holmes of screen as presented by Basil Rathbone may have solved mysteries during the 1940s, but this was not written by Sir Doyle. Holmes' last case takes place just prior to WWI and in it he foils German agents' attempt at acquiring certain information which they are seeking in their plans for martial preparation.

You are correct in stating Holmes' adaptability as he is infinitely versatile and is known for flouting the tastes and feelings of others upon almost any topic though, he does have a great appreciation for societal order. He would likely have adapted, but slowly as most people would to vastly altered social status quos.

Holmes also displays a penchant for wearing tweeds when they are not necessarily considered appropriate and likewise receiving all visitors regardless of rank in his smoking jacket or dressing gown (a sign that one is receiving an equal or an inferior). Holmes frequently dispenses with the wearing of formal day or evening wear even where it may be socially required by the tastes of the day.

Evan Everhart
10-16-2009, 11:01 AM
I can quite agree there. My point is only that while arguably in style, his attire can be very impractical. He is not the man to chase a suspect or fire a gun in case it would spoil his clothes. That's where I prefer detectives like Philip Marlowe who is well dressed (his suits are complemented on a few occaisions) but still able to remain practical. Plus he wears a fedora and trench coat which I like to. However, Poirot is the neatest and most methodical of the lot, and he can always rely on Hastings to do any physical work.

BRAVO!

avedwards
10-16-2009, 04:26 PM
The Holmes of screen as presented by Basil Rathbone may have solved mysteries during the 1940s, but this was not written by Sir Doyle. Holmes' last case takes place just prior to WWI and in it he foils German agents' attempt at acquiring certain information which they are seeking in their plans for martial preparation.

You are correct in stating Holmes' adaptability as he is infinitely versatile and is known for flouting the tastes and feelings of others upon almost any topic though, he does have a great appreciation for societal order. He would likely have adapted, but slowly as most people would to vastly altered social status quos.

Holmes also displays a penchant for wearing tweeds when they are not necessarily considered appropriate and likewise receiving all visitors regardless of rank in his smoking jacket or dressing gown (a sign that one is receiving an equal or an inferior). Holmes frequently dispenses with the wearing of formal day or evening wear even where it may be socially required by the tastes of the day.
You are right, that Doyle's last case is set in 1914. However Rathbone shows what Holmes could have been like had he lived in the 1940s.

As for Holmes' dress sense, it is indeed eccentric at times to say the least. In Peter Cushing's Sherlock Holmes episodes (not the film he made with Hammer Horror) he is portrayed in a very book accurate way, with costumes similar to what he wear in the illustrations. There he takes off his dressing gown and puts on some sort of a tailcoat or frock coat when receiving a Countess, replacing the dressing gown once she is gone. Of course that's the filmmakers immagination, but it seems what a gentleman would have done. However, unlike many films Doyle's Holmes always wears the correct sort of a hat in the city with the correct sort of outerwear.

theinterchange
12-03-2009, 08:57 PM
Having just finished watching The ABC Murders before logging on,and being a big fan of Poirot, I must say he is both well dressed and a dandy as has been said.

I must say it takes a good actor to play Poirot and not come across as VERY effiminate by today's standards, and in my book Suchet does that quite well.

Randy

Evan Everhart
12-04-2009, 11:25 AM
You are right, that Doyle's last case is set in 1914. However Rathbone shows what Holmes could have been like had he lived in the 1940s.

As for Holmes' dress sense, it is indeed eccentric at times to say the least. In Peter Cushing's Sherlock Holmes episodes (not the film he made with Hammer Horror) he is portrayed in a very book accurate way, with costumes similar to what he wear in the illustrations. There he takes off his dressing gown and puts on some sort of a tailcoat or frock coat when receiving a Countess, replacing the dressing gown once she is gone. Of course that's the filmmakers immagination, but it seems what a gentleman would have done. However, unlike many films Doyle's Holmes always wears the correct sort of a hat in the city with the correct sort of outerwear.

True on the hats there sir! One thing though, I've read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories (the real Doyle ones, not those abominations of non-canonical conjecture) and his changing clothing before a client enters for the sheer sake of their social status is never once mentioned. As I have read, Holmes while a strident nationalist and patriot with an extremely eccentric love of social justice (perhaps order is not necessarily the correct word) is no respecter of the regular rules of society though, a keen observer and deducer of them and how they are applied and affect each other and the individuals who necessarily live under their influence. Just reiterating the fact and supporting it as I see from your above statement that you likely agree with my own deduction from the literature, that Holmes was not likely to change his garments for someone based upon their rank or anything else. He is an island unto himself as the saying goes. Aye?

Damn! Now I feel the STRONG Urge to go and watch some A&E Poirot and Holmes again when I need to be working! Is there a Holmes thread? If not, there ought to be one.

Edward
12-04-2009, 11:46 AM
Is there a Holmes thread? If not, there ought to be one.


I've not run into a hardcore Holmes thread (probably to do with his era having been late Victorian / Edwardian, thus predating somewhat the main thrust of the FL's chief era of interest), though there have been a few discussing the myriad filmed versions of his work - in, I believe, the Moving Picture area.

The issue of Holmes' country dress becoming the stereotype via him being shown wearing the deerstalker and cape in town, well. Of course Homes himself would never have been so 'incorrect'. Hardly a suprise that one iconic look became a visual signifier of the character on screen. C/f Indiana Jones: in Raiders, the hat and leather jacket are very much throwaway items... come time to film Temple and they have become so iconic in the public mind that they are the key visual signifier of the brand. Of course Holmes on screen was going to become known for one key look (well, okay, maybe two.... Bogie is at least remembered best both for the white dj and the trenchcoat / fedora looks). Interesting, though, that it was the deerstalker and tweeds, country look. I woner why.... was this as simple as that being a much more unique look, marking out the character in a way that regular, less distinct townwear would in the 30s and later when the stories were committed to film, or was it some other reason? Was it that certain of the original illustrations had a greater popularity than others? Or was it simply that the earliest, or at least most successful stories to be committed to film originally were set in the country - I'm thinking especially ...Baskervilles here - and thus that set the public conception of the Holmes brand, in much the same way as Raiders did Indy?

avedwards
12-04-2009, 01:08 PM
I've not run into a hardcore Holmes thread (probably to do with his era having been late Victorian / Edwardian, thus predating somewhat the main thrust of the FL's chief era of interest), though there have been a few discussing the myriad filmed versions of his work - in, I believe, the Moving Picture area.

The issue of Holmes' country dress becoming the stereotype via him being shown wearing the deerstalker and cape in town, well. Of course Homes himself would never have been so 'incorrect'. Hardly a suprise that one iconic look became a visual signifier of the character on screen. C/f Indiana Jones: in Raiders, the hat and leather jacket are very much throwaway items... come time to film Temple and they have become so iconic in the public mind that they are the key visual signifier of the brand. Of course Holmes on screen was going to become known for one key look (well, okay, maybe two.... Bogie is at least remembered best both for the white dj and the trenchcoat / fedora looks). Interesting, though, that it was the deerstalker and tweeds, country look. I woner why.... was this as simple as that being a much more unique look, marking out the character in a way that regular, less distinct townwear would in the 30s and later when the stories were committed to film, or was it some other reason? Was it that certain of the original illustrations had a greater popularity than others? Or was it simply that the earliest, or at least most successful stories to be committed to film originally were set in the country - I'm thinking especially ...Baskervilles here - and thus that set the public conception of the Holmes brand, in much the same way as Raiders did Indy?
The deerstalker and cape comes from the actor William Gillette. He performed as Holmes on stage at Doyle's time (the two became good friends). He wore a deerstalker and thus it became typecast with the character.

He also introduced the curbed pipe (the illustrations only have him with a straight one) as it was easier for him to deliver his lines with as it didn't bob up and down.

Gillette did not make Holmes very book-accurate, having him fall in love at one point, which Holmes makes a point of avoiding in the books. However, at the time Doyle was so fed up with the character that he allowed Gillette to do whatever he wanted with him.

Scotus
12-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Having read through this thread, and having read all the Poirot books several times, I think David V says it best when he states, "Better dressed but never over dressed." To me, that is the best way to describe Poirot as portrayed by David Suchet (the best), as well as the description of him in Christie's books.

Doug C
12-04-2009, 07:14 PM
I used to really like this series, but mostly for the art deco architecture, furnishings and cool cars. I also liked alot of the wardrodes used, but never Poirot's himself. I guess you could say I liked the series inspite of Poirot. His character actually gets on my never a bit, way too "dandy" for my likeing. Overdone with the brushing himself off constantly, etc. [huh] , just my opinion. Though I don't think they could have got a better actor to play the role, he does a good job.

Doug C

Mysterious Mose
12-05-2009, 01:44 PM
The deerstalker and cape comes from the actor William Gillette. He performed as Holmes on stage at Doyle's time (the two became good friends). He wore a deerstalker and thus it became typecast with the character.


Nonsense.

From the Memoirs, 1892, by Sidney Paget:
http://artandliterature.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/silver_blaze_sydney_paget.jpg

Mysterious Mose
12-05-2009, 02:15 PM
Holmes also displays a penchant for wearing tweeds when they are not necessarily considered appropriate and likewise receiving all visitors regardless of rank in his smoking jacket or dressing gown (a sign that one is receiving an equal or an inferior). Holmes frequently dispenses with the wearing of formal day or evening wear even where it may be socially required by the tastes of the day.

How, where, when?

avedwards
12-05-2009, 02:55 PM
Nonsense.

From the Memoirs, 1892, by Sidney Paget:
http://artandliterature.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/silver_blaze_sydney_paget.jpg
Not nonsense, Sidney Paget introduced the deerstalker to the character, but it only became Holmes' trademark when Gillette wore it. Plus Paget's pictures show no Inverness cape (your example shows some sort of hooded overcoat) and no curved pipe.

filfoster
12-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Dandy. I long for Sam Spade to rough him up.

filfoster
12-05-2009, 04:04 PM
I used to really like this series, but mostly for the art deco architecture, furnishings and cool cars. I also liked alot of the wardrodes used, but never Poirot's himself. I guess you could say I liked the series inspite of Poirot. His character actually gets on my never a bit, way too "dandy" for my likeing. Overdone with the brushing himself off constantly, etc. [huh] , just my opinion. Though I don't think they could have got a better actor to play the role, he does a good job.

Doug C

I missed this my first read-through. It describes how I also feel about the series, perfectly. Wonderful sets, props,manners and clothes, an evocation of a time and place but I wouldn't really care to bend an arm with him.

Mysterious Mose
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Not nonsense, Sidney Paget introduced the deerstalker to the character, but it only became Holmes' trademark when Gillette wore it. Plus Paget's pictures show no Inverness cape (your example shows some sort of hooded overcoat) and no curved pipe.

You said the cape and hat came from the actor William Gilette. Nonsense.He's wearing an Ulster coat:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9429/ulstertypescunningtonsp8.jpg
Gilette probably didn't bother to get the proper one and came up with this,the Wikipedia version:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Ulsterovercoat_jan1903.jpg/409px-Ulsterovercoat_jan1903.jpg
Gilette was a heavy smoker and chose a pipe that would hold a lot of tobacco. ACD at the time couldn't care but Holmes' smoking habits have been meticulously described in the stories. The cherrywood,long clay,oily black pipes, the morning dottles, heaps of cigarettes, occasional cigar and even opium in "The man with the twisted lip".

As far as the trademark thing goes, it's my opinion Holmes was a phenomenon before Gilette's plays anyway. Paget's brother Walter was addressed as Mr. Holmes in the street by the readers who recognised his features.

theinterchange
12-05-2009, 07:05 PM
Dandy. I long for Sam Spade to rough him up.

WHY would Spade need to rough him up? [huh]

I never really bought Bogart as a tough guy, more as a guy who TALKED tough. The only film I really bought Bogart as a tough guy in was Key Largo, and then only in the last 10 minutes or so. I know that statement will be met with a chorus of boos! :eek: ;)

Randy

Cobden
12-05-2009, 07:44 PM
I think Sherlock Holmes and Poirot (and also Columbo) suffer from the problem of the time/setting changing, but the costume not.

When Sherlock Holmes was originally published, a dearstalker and ulster would have been not uncommon wear for a English Gentleman in or travelling to the country - hence their inclusion in the original illustrations. However, the neccessities of stage productions meant that the several costume changes were unwelcome, especially for the titular character, and thus the actor spent the entire play in the traditional Holmesian getup - and it was the fact that this was thus worn in settings where it wouldn't have been appropriate that it became a trademark.

Poirot - originally written in 1916 (where his clothes would not have been inappropriate, or indeed have stood out, apart from their being well maintained). In 1930's, the clothes haven't changed, but the setting has. I haven't read Agatha Christie for a while, but I believe it is only the first novel that his clothes are described in detail - hence the only reference for costumers.

I mentioned Columbo too. Originally it was a stage play called "Prescription: Murder", eventually televised in 1968 starring Peter Falk as Columbo. His clothes don't stand out from the other characters - not particulary smart, but dressed as a detective in 1968 would have done. Because he wasn't meant to be dressed in a costume, Peter Falk just wore his own clothes. By the time the Columbo series, based on "Prescription: Murder" came about, in 1972, he wore the same clothes - four years later not surprisingly they were somewhat out of date by then. And exactly the same clothes were worn throughout the entire run, hence the tattiness.

In all three cases, it's a case of something that isn't really a costume or distinctive becoming distinctive.

Shangas
12-06-2009, 02:06 AM
Holmes never actually wore a deerstalker hat. To my knowledge, it's never mentioned in any of the stories. It was an invention of Paget's, along with the cape. The curved, calabash smoking-pipe was an invention of the actors who played Holmes, William Gilette in particular, I believe, because he found it easier to hold the pipe in his mouth and speak his lines at the same time. But again, this style of pipe was never mentioned or even drawn, in the original stories. Doyle mentions briars and clays, he mentions cigars and cigarettes, but not calabash pipes.

avedwards
12-06-2009, 03:50 AM
You said the cape and hat came from the actor William Gilette. Nonsense.He's wearing an Ulster coat:

Gilette probably didn't bother to get the proper one and came up with this,the Wikipedia version:

Gilette was a heavy smoker and chose a pipe that would hold a lot of tobacco. ACD at the time couldn't care but Holmes' smoking habits have been meticulously described in the stories. The cherrywood,long clay,oily black pipes, the morning dottles, heaps of cigarettes, occasional cigar and even opium in "The man with the twisted lip".

As far as the trademark thing goes, it's my opinion Holmes was a phenomenon before Gilette's plays anyway. Paget's brother Walter was addressed as Mr. Holmes in the street by the readers who recognised his features.
I didn't say that the hat and cape came from Gillette, I said the character's association with them came from him. Yes, Holmes is wearing an ulster in that picture, but the ulster did not end up becoming the character's trademark. Gillette wore an Inverness cape, and that is now associated with the character, despite it not being in the original illustrations. His choice of an Inverness over an ulster may not match the illustrations, but it isn't completely inaccurate as it was a period accurate coat which a person like Holmes could have worn when travelling.

Paget only shows a deerstalker on a few occaisions and at that time the hat was not Holmes' trademark. It only became his trademark through Gillette who wore it in all of his plays as a result of costume changing being impractical.

And I acknowledged that Gillette's Holmes is not 100% book accurate. Then again he couldn't copy the character's smoking habits perfectly because on stage a pipe is more practical than smoking cigarette after cigarette. As for he curved pipe, he used it for practical reasons and despite it not being in the illustrations or desciptions, and it is now Holmes' trademark.

Like it or not, a lot of the things we now associate with Sherlock Holmes stem from William Gillette. Even the line "elementary, my dear Watson" which Holmes never says in the novels stems from Gillette. I'm not saying that he copies the Holmes of the books perfectly, just that a lot of our associations with the character do stem from him.

So please stop condeming my posts as nonsense. I am a Sherlock Holmes enthusiast and I have done a lot of research as to where the connotations of him originate from.

Scotus
12-06-2009, 04:07 AM
Poirot - originally written in 1916 (where his clothes would not have been inappropriate, or indeed have stood out, apart from their being well maintained). In 1930's, the clothes haven't changed, but the setting has.

The original question in this thread was about the series with Suchet, in which case the time setting is 1935/36. They came to settle on '36, but I noticed in one episode a man signing a register '35. The movie The Mysteries Affair at Styles was set earlier, but that was a "throw back" to his first case in England. So, I stand by what was said earlier about "Better dressed but not over dressed." Certainly, no one looks upon Poirot as someone inappropriately dressed on any occassion.

Mysterious Mose
12-06-2009, 06:03 AM
The deerstalker and cape comes from the actor William Gillette.

I didn't say that the hat and cape came from Gillette, ...
:rolleyes:


This remark: "(your example shows some sort of hooded overcoat)" tells me there's more research to be done before stating 'facts' like the one quoted at the top of this post in a 'General Attire etc.' thread.

And yes, I like it not that a lot of the things 'we' now associate with Sherlock Holmes stem from William Gillette. I don't do that. I don't bother with Gillette, Rathbone or even Mr. Cushing's. I think Brett's portrayal was excellent. But
that's just my opinion.


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/disfarmer/holmes_friston.jpg

Cobden
12-06-2009, 07:29 AM
The original question in this thread was about the series with Suchet, in which case the time setting is 1935/36. They came to settle on '36, but I noticed in one episode a man signing a register '35. The movie The Mysteries Affair at Styles was set earlier, but that was a "throw back" to his first case in England. So, I stand by what was said earlier about "Better dressed but not over dressed." Certainly, no one looks upon Poirot as someone inappropriately dressed on any occassion.

Yes, but as I said, the look of the Poirot is based upon how he is described in the books - but the main reference to how he dresses (IIRC) comes from the 1916 novel; Christie however does make other, lesser references to how he dresses throughout the books (mentioning mud on spat boots, that sort of thing, rather than full blown description), but doesn't change what he wears. Sort a literary version of the Columbo problem, really. It's not that he's inappropriately dressed, in the way we tend to use on the forum, but rather out of date; I think the nearest thing is the equivalent of someone wearing a newly tailored suit with 1930's features nowadays for work. Not inappropriate, but not normal. Basically, Poirot is a 1930's equivalent of a Magnoli wearing lounger :p

Mysterious Mose
12-06-2009, 08:38 AM
Is there a Holmes thread? If not, there ought to be one.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/disfarmer/P7220001.jpg

Oh dear...

avedwards
12-06-2009, 10:17 AM
:rolleyes:


This remark: "(your example shows some sort of hooded overcoat)" tells me there's more research to be done before stating 'facts' like the one quoted at the top of this post in a 'General Attire etc.' thread.

And yes, I like it not that a lot of the things 'we' now associate with Sherlock Holmes stem from William Gillette. I don't do that. I don't bother with Gillette, Rathbone or even Mr. Cushing's. I think Brett's portrayal was excellent. But that's just my opinion.
If the first quote of mine you used in your post had been used in context it wouldn't have looked like the contradiction you made it look. My point is simply that the modern view of Holmes, even if not book accurate, stems largely from William Gillette. I realise you may not be a fan of his, but that doesn't change the fact that he affected what is commonly assiciated with the character. I personally do not know if I would be a fan of his as I wasn't around to see any of his plays sadly.

We are talking at cross purposes here. You are telling me what Holmes is like in the books which I am aware of, having read the majority of them. I am not disagreeing that the modern perception of Holmes differs from the character in the books, I am simply saying that it comes from Gillette.

For example, Holmes being steriotyped always to wear deerstalker comes from Gillette and not Paget, as Paget was well aware that Holmes would never wear a deerstalker in the city and consequently draws him in a bowler or topper when he is in urban settings. Paget's drawings of Holmes in a deerstalker are only in a few stories, so I doubt that he could have started the steriotype. However Gillette always wore one and was a star in his day and therefore began an association, which I am well aware of is not book accurate.

You may not like Gillette's, Rathbone's or Cushing's interpretation of Holmes. I can fully see why you may not like them, but the fact still remains that modern (and undoubtedly incorrect) ideas of the character are largely based on Gillette's interpretation.

Mysterious Mose
12-06-2009, 10:47 AM
Allright, I almost agree with you, BUT
I was first exposed to Holmes by the Brett version in the later 1980's. Therefore I only knew his version and the books, which I loved. Then I looked into the previous versions. Terrible, with the exception of the Carleton Hobbs/Norman Shelley radio adaptions. To me the Brett interpretation is THE modern idea of the character, the earlier ones are better ignored or forgotten. But I already said that, didn't I?

avedwards
12-06-2009, 10:56 AM
Allright, I almost agree with you, BUT
I was first exposed to Holmes by the Brett version in the later 1980's. Therefore I only knew his version and the books, which I loved. Then I looked into the previous versions. Terrible, with the exception of the Carleton Hobbs/Norman Shelley radio adaptions. To me the Brett interpretation is THE modern idea of the character, the earlier ones are better ignored or forgotten. But I already said that, didn't I?
Precisely, you have a preference for Brett who is undoubtedly one of the more accurate Holmes'.

However, I would recommend you also see Cushing's series made in the 1960s. I'm not referring to the Hammer version of "The Hound of the Baskervilles" which is dreadfully inaccurate but a short TV series with the BBC. That series is far more accurate for the most part, and both Holmes and Watson are portrayed relatively faithfully, leading me to think you may just like it. Many see it as a pre-runner to Brett.

I'm glad we found a mutual agreement, despite our differing preferences. I personally prefer Rathbone, but precisely because his innacuracy allows me to relate to the character better as he is not as perfect as Doyle's and Brett's Holmes.


Back to Poirot before we got side-tracked ;), almost everyone on this thread is in agreement that David Suchet does a fantastic job of portraying the character as meticulously neat (or fussy) but not effeminate.

BellyTank
12-06-2009, 11:13 AM
The Suchet Poirot reminds me of Gustav von Aschenbach,
from the film, Death in Venice-
inapproprate on several levels- collar too tight, suit too hot,
mixture of black dye and brilliantine oozing and running in the heat.

Not the best look-


B
T

Mysterious Mose
12-06-2009, 11:36 AM
:whistling ...

filfoster
12-06-2009, 05:31 PM
At least Captain Hastings was generally well dressed and drove a killer car-Blower Bentley, if I recall.

le.gentleman
12-30-2011, 11:00 AM
Agatha Christie's Poirot is without a doubt an excellent series and since hardly anything has been written about David Suchet's clothes, I wrote an article about Hercule Poirot's clothes (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot-clothes-suit/) and his character (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot/).


http://img8.ceskatelevize.cz/program/porady/10196038708/foto09/209381461180001_01.jpg

filfoster
12-30-2011, 11:19 AM
To the original posted question, he's the fussy uncle your parents described as a 'confirmed bachelor' and always told you to knock first on his door when he visited.

Scotus
12-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Agatha Christie's Poirot is without a doubt an excellent series and since hardly anything has been written about David Suchet's clothes, I wrote an article about Hercule Poirot's clothes (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot-clothes-suit/) and his character (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot/).

Both articles are of the most excellent quality, as Poirot might say. :)

filfoster, you obviously don't know Poirot very well. Firstly, he is a devout Catholic. Secondly, he met his one love, Countess Vera Rossakof, who turns out to be a thief. Otherwise, he is consumed by his work. No, I am certain the only thing one might discover upon opening a door on Hercule Poirot might be that he is without his jacket as he sits at his desk.

filfoster
12-30-2011, 12:05 PM
Both articles are of the most excellent quality, as Poirot might say. :)

filfoster, you obviously don't know Poirot very well. Firstly, he is a devout Catholic. Secondly, he met his one love, Countess Vera Rossakof, who turns out to be a thief. Otherwise, he is consumed by his work. No, I am certain the only thing one might discover upon opening a door on Hercule Poirot might be that he is without his jacket as he sits at his desk.
I yield to your Poirot savvy. Perhaps he had an unwritten darker side...

Scotus
12-30-2011, 12:27 PM
I yield to your Poirot savvy.

You are too kind, mon ami. :D

avedwards
12-30-2011, 03:36 PM
Agatha Christie's Poirot is without a doubt an excellent series and since hardly anything has been written about David Suchet's clothes, I wrote an article about Hercule Poirot's clothes (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot-clothes-suit/) and his character (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot/).
Excellent article, but I have two things to add to it:
1. As well as exclusively wearing three piece suits he also exclusively wears peaked lapels on his suits. Notched lapels are presumably too casual for him.
2. Whilst, as you point out, he never wears morning dress I did once see an episode where he wore a stroller whilst in his office. It was interesting to see him in separates but he pulled it off well.

Shangas
12-30-2011, 04:14 PM
Agatha Christie's Poirot is without a doubt an excellent series and since hardly anything has been written about David Suchet's clothes, I wrote an article about Hercule Poirot's clothes (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot-clothes-suit/) and his character (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/hercule-poirot/).

http://img8.ceskatelevize.cz/program/porady/10196038708/foto09/209381461180001_01.jpg

Very interesting articles.

But I should warn you, that a "Prince Albert" is very different to a "Double Albert". Poirot wears a Double Albert watch-chain.

If you don't know what I'm on about, I suggest you do some research, but suffice to say, it's not something mentioned in polite society.

Baron Kurtz
12-30-2011, 04:22 PM
I don't see why not (discussed in polite society). If so, polite society sucks! I'm told it's not uncomfortable at all once the swelling's gone down I can but imagine the shocking google images search at this moment being perused.

Not something one might associate with Poirot, though. But who knows what lurks behind the bedroom door of any man!

bk

Baron Kurtz
12-30-2011, 04:25 PM
Interestingly, I don't recall attire being a particular focus of the Poirot stories. Other than his fastidiousness and slightly outdated primness - all part of the overarching what we now call OCD - it's not that big of a deal. Same w/ Holmes books.

bk

Shangas
12-30-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't see why not (discussed in polite society). If so, polite society sucks! I'm told it's not uncomfortable at all once the swelling's gone down I can but imagine the shocking google images search at this moment being perused.

Not something one might associate with Poirot, though. But who knows what lurks behind the bedroom door of any man!

bk

Hahaha!! Oh god...

Isis
12-31-2011, 10:47 AM
But I should warn you, that a "Prince Albert" is very different to a "Double Albert". Poirot wears a Double Albert watch-chain.

If you don't know what I'm on about, I suggest you do some research, but suffice to say, it's not something mentioned in polite society.

Oh no, that gave me an mental image I just didn't need!

One thing one might want to consider is that Suchet is a slimmer man than the Poirot he portrays. His suits are padded and the collars is chosen because they enhance the image of rotundness. It's also a bit difficult to undress him in his shirtsleeves as padding can be a bit conspicious then.

As for wearing a three piece suit on the beach, my great grandfather who was born in the 1880's and died in 1971 ALWAYS wore a black three piece wool suit, regardless weather and location. So yes, he wore that if he went to a beach too. The only occasion he removed the jacket was it it was really hot and only family around, but he would never, ever have removed his wasitcoat.

Lights
12-31-2011, 11:06 AM
As for wearing a three piece suit on the beach, my great grandfather who was born in the 1880's and died in 1971 ALWAYS wore a black three piece wool suit, regardless weather and location. So yes, he wore that if he went to a beach too. The only occasion he removed the jacket was it it was really hot and only family around, but he would never, ever have removed his wasitcoat.
It's hard to imagine what it was like back then.

Shangas
12-31-2011, 04:16 PM
Isis's great-grandfather would've grown up in an era when the shirt was considered an undergarment, and when exposing anything but the collars and cuffs of your shirt was considered almost the height of rudeness and distaste. So it's really not that surprising that the old boy would wear a suit everywhere he went.

In an article I read about 'Poirot', according to Suchet, when they were filming "Problem at Sea", he was at constant risk of heatstroke, because he was wearing the padding and a full suit all the time, in 32-degree (centigrade) heat. He had to drink buckets of water to replace the revolting amount of sweat that he was perspiring all the time during filming.

filfoster
01-03-2012, 01:45 PM
I don't see why not (discussed in polite society). If so, polite society sucks! I'm told it's not uncomfortable at all once the swelling's gone down I can but imagine the shocking google images search at this moment being perused.

Not something one might associate with Poirot, though. But who knows what lurks behind the bedroom door of any man!

bk

Well, then, to wit, my comment about the fussy uncle who insists on your knocking when he visits...
This seems very much like something that anyone who wants one, should certainly have.