Beaver 100% Hat Body

[Andykev]

Here are some shots of a 100% beaver hat body. The felt is very thick, compared to an Optimo, Borsalino, or Dobbs. This seems like a fine hat. However that being said, a blended fur hat retains greater advantages: same water repelency as beaver, but better finish. A blend of Nutria , wild hare, beaver and the best percentages of each is what you want.

I can say from looking at this genuine 100% Beaver hat body, I love the natural color, but the finished hat will be much heavier and thicker than a fine blended dress hat.

I would prefer a hat with Nutria...far better than beaver.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p276b4ef90610a35f137f6d802101500b/f9c98eaf.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p078631c7452a5be3fdf8a141f6719446/f9c98eac.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p3d1559ae4a2a39801f76f0a340f1e013/f9c98ea9.jpg

[Fedora]

Looks like I am gonna have to send you a beaver hat that has been finely pounced and pounced down to a vintage lightweight thickness.:D The finish is in the pouncing. Nothing wrong with the cheaper blends. They are just.....cheaper.:p :D Here are a couple of quotes from Hat Life. "All felt hats look similar at quick glance, and a customer may wonder why one costs $25, another $50, $100 or more. True, the difference can be seen and felt once he gets them in his hand, and it shows up even more after months of wearing. But the question remains: what makes hat quality?

The major items of cost are the fur, the trimmings, and, highly important, the workmanship. Selection of the fur determines the tightness of the felt and the sheen and resilience of the finish. It comes in dozens of different grades of rabbit, hare, nutria, beaver, etc., and may vary in price from $10 to $100 a pound. Each has its own property of felting tightly or loosely, and the tighter the felt the more "live" and shape-retaining the hat will be. Certain portions of the fur, the backs of land animals, the bellies of water animals, are superior in quality and command a higher price. There is also the cheaper "short stock" (reclaimed fur) and synthetic fiber which acts as a filler but does nothing to tighten the felt. They all make hats, but with a difference in "feel" and in pride of appearance after a little wear." And, this one. "Fur felt hats are chiefly made of rabbit fur. Some hare fur is used to make better hats, and is often mixed with rabbit fur to produce hats in various medium price grades. Beaver, the finest fur, and nutria are usually used in the best hats, and muskrat also supplies raw material for hatmaking."
I still say that the use of all beaver fur is a matter of economics. Not many folks are willing to pay upwards to a thousand bucks for a hat. You don't sell many of those, but on the other hand a rabbit blend can look wonderful and is a heck of alot cheaper. They sell a whole lot quicker.Just my 2 cents. regards, Fedora

[Andykev]

"The Stetson Company used fur from the American and Canadian beaver and muskrat, "nutria" from the Agrentine coypu, and fur from the hare from Continental Europe and the Scottish and English coney (a European rabbit) to make their felt. The best quality fur from the beaver, muskrat, and coypu was the belly fur; from the hares and coney the back fur was best. The higher quality of fur used to make the felt, the more expensive the hat made from that felt sould be prime considerations in pricing Stetson hats. HATS MADE OF NUTRIA OR BEAVER WERE NOTED AMONG THE STETSON TRADEMARKS AS THESE WERE THE HIGHEST QUALITY FELTS"

Obviously, the heavier Beaver hat body shown above is raw: hours of sanding, brushing, and finishing will produce an excellent hat. It is a tight hat, good fur, great touch, but is will end up being a heavyweight felt hat. It is a dress hat weight. Not a cowboy hat. :eek:

[Art Fawcett]

OKOKOK....I've held off on this topic as long as i can!!! Fedora, you are mostly right in your statements. I would add something though. Beaver is AMONG the best felts to use, not THE best felt. I would argue that both Nutria and Mink produce as high, if not higher quality hat than pure beaver. Correct me if I can be proven wrong, but the most expensive hats Stetson ever sold were pure clear Nutria, not beaver. As well, the most expensive hats Borsalino ever sold were Mink. I have owned both and can attest to their feel as magnificent. I am not knocking pure beaver, I just won't limit the statement of " the best" to that fur alone.

[Andykev]

If you refer to the Stetson History Book, you will see Fedora that the best hats given to executives and valued employees upon retirement were NUTRIA. I have held hats made from Nutria, and I can attest to the fact that the felt is tight, smooth, and dense. A fine fine felt. Beaver is ok, and great, but for a real fine dress hat, Nutria, or Nutria and hare are the best in finish and luxury.

But I'm a newbie.LOL

[Sergei]

Beaver, the finest fur, AND nutria are usually used in the best hats, and muskrat also supplies raw material for hatmaking."

I do see an "AND" between beaver and nutria as being the used in the "best" hats. Your quote Fedora.

Are we maybe (all of us) talking past each other? I have seen several all 100% beaver hats, but I didn't really experience the "WOW" until I have seen the beaver/nutria blend. And that's not just the Optimo version. I saw an old Stetson with the same mix. It really had that pop. More sheen and softness over the 100% beaver.

But honestly, "pounce" is just a lot of sandpapering. That's what Akubra does. It's Step 10 on their website. I think, what is actually missing is the mercury. The mercury is what really softened the beaver. And Joe Jr. has his vintage beaver felt, which was mercury finished. No one does this anymore. Right?

-Sergei

[Art Fawcett]

You are right Sergei, to my knowledge mercury isn't used anywhere . I also think that is has alot to do with the overall feel of the hat. What I am responding to is Fedora's absolute insistence that beaver is the be all, end all of felt bodies both here and on other boards. Yes, it makes a terrific felt that in many peoples opinion is the best, but no matter where it is written, where it is said, it is still just an opinion, and we know what they say about that. ) The fact that other furs, both pure and in blended form produce fine felt that is more expensive than clear beaver must have some validation. By not validating other furs, ie: mink, nutria, we are keeping our focus too narrow and not gaining the knowledge we all seek here. My interests go far beyond the Indy world, into an entire world of hats that have long been forgotten and would hope to help bring more interested people along that journey. I don't believe that can be done with a closed mind and eyes narrowed.

stepping down from the soap box now...

[Matt Deckard]

By not validating other furs, ie: mink, nutria, we are keeping our focus too narrow and not gaining the knowledge we all seek here.

Here here!

I agree whole heartedly.

[Sergei]

Art, you and me are on the same page. I never disagreed with you or Andy. :p

-Sergei

[fedoralover]

A journey in which I hope to tag along on.

regards fedoralover

[Fedora]

OK, perhaps you guys are right. Perhaps beaver is not the ultimate felt(assuming the felting and finishing process was superb) But, every source that I have ever read, and every account(other than here) has always stated that beaver was the highest quality felt, and the most expensive. I will of course stand by my assumptions, until someone gives me a source that states otherwise. :D Yeah, I am hardhead, but you guys have to realize that when you have heard something stated for 52 years, it sorta becomes accepted and part of one's consciousness. And when everything you read puts beaver on the top, well, what is one to think? Am I to assume that a lower priced felt is superior? Beaver felt has always been the highest priced felt you could buy. If it did not make a higher quality hat, then why was it in demand, and cost so darn much? Why did several hat companies price their hats by the amount of beaver contained? You know, like 3x, 5x, etc? And Sergei, yes "and" was used between beaver and nutria. But beaver was given first, and then nutria.:p LOL Like I said, I can be convinced, but fellows, it is gonna take more than heresay to do so. It is gonna take sources with documentation. So much knowledge about hats and felt have been lost over the years, and much of what is fed to us nowadays may have more to do with marketing that actual facts. Like a claim made by a hatter that modern felt is better than vintage. I don't buy that. So as the beaver/quality souces reaveal themselves, please share with this old hardhead. LOL regards, Fedora

[Matt Deckard]

I wrote what I know in several posts in this Cafe.

http://pub63.ezboard.com/faustinscafeamericainfrm9.showMessageRange?topicID =83.topic&start=1&stop=20

from what I know, stiff hats and dress hats are different.

[Marc]

Hmmm... I think we have different opinions on what really makes a felt great. For some the finish is the most important thing, while for others the feel, the floppyness, the durability whatever is more important.

Also take into consideration, that some felts are treated with special techniques that can change these factors to a certain degree.

For some people beaver is and will always be the best of the best as it has some characteristics other felts don't et vice versa.

Regards,

Marc

[Rundquist]

Originally posted by Fedora
OK, perhaps you guys are right. Perhaps beaver is not the ultimate felt(assuming the felting and finishing process was superb) But, every source that I have ever read, and every account(other than here) has always stated that beaver was the highest quality felt, and the most expensive. I will of course stand by my assumptions, until someone gives me a source that states otherwise. :D Yeah, I am hardhead, but you guys have to realize that when you have heard something stated for 52 years, it sorta becomes accepted and part of one's consciousness. And when everything you read puts beaver on the top, well, what is one to think? Am I to assume that a lower priced felt is superior? Beaver felt has always been the highest priced felt you could buy. If it did not make a higher quality hat, then why was it in demand, and cost so darn much? Why did several hat companies price their hats by the amount of beaver contained? You know, like 3x, 5x, etc? And Sergei, yes "and" was used between beaver and nutria. But beaver was given first, and then nutria.:p LOL Like I said, I can be convinced, but fellows, it is gonna take more than heresay to do so. It is gonna take sources with documentation. So much knowledge about hats and felt have been lost over the years, and much of what is fed to us nowadays may have more to do with marketing that actual facts. Like a claim made by a hatter that modern felt is better than vintage. I don't buy that. So as the beaver/quality souces reaveal themselves, please share with this old hardhead. LOL regards, Fedora


There were so many different felt-making processes over the last 200 years, that I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m sure that everybody?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s right in their thinking to some degree. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve heard that beaver belly fur is hard to beat. What I will add as far as the price of beaver pelts goes is that the top hat craze during the 1800?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s drove the beaver to the brink of extinction. Rarity always plays a part in the cost of something. Today the beaver is no longer on the endangered species list. The price difference in pelts could come from the fact that nutria and rabbits are considered pests. The difference in the hat-product virtues of the different pelts might not translate to the open market price of each. Cheers

[Andykev]

When is your birthday? I'm gonna go down to our local zoo and buy you your very own beaverLOL

And who the hell said modern is better than vintage? I"ll put on my gloves for that one. Today's modern CUSTOM felt (ie.Optimo) beats hands down the run of the mill vintage. BUT there are vintage hats that quite frankly CANNOT be reproduced today (technique, felt, bodies, mercury, you name it). SO the real question is: lets compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.

[Fedora]

Thanks Andy, but we got plenty of those varmits in these parts. We even brought in gators to help with the population control. :eek: I just read the whole Stetson book we have referred to here at times. It seems that Nutria and Beaver are both at the top of the fine fur list. There is one page in the book that shows two hats given to employess for long service. One was nutria and one was beaver. :D There is also a little article on the worlds most expensive hat. It took months to make and even toured the country and put on display. 15 grand.:eek: Oh, it was beaver.;) The book also stated that in the early years at Stetson, Mr. Stetson insisted on using Nutria in some of his hats. It was considered bad business by other hatters at the time due to the high price of Nutria fur. This was late 1800's and prior to the cultivation of Nutria in La-I think. Which may be the reason the fur was so expensive. The animal was from South America and was trapped the way that other varmits were, in the wild. Regardless, I own a Stetson Nutria hat and it is salivation material. LOL Oh, I guess I am gonna have to send Matt a soft, lightweight, pure beaver hat to examine. Seems that will be the only way he will get rid of the unfounded notion that beaver felt by its nature is stiff. You should not judge beaver felt by cowboy hats, at least modern cowboy hats. The first Staple Stetsons were soft hats, not stiff. Fedora

[Andykev]

Send one to me, I'm not proud. And I'm not demeaning your OPINION. I have mine too. And I'm not an expert. Just a real, very badly obcessed, enthusiast.

You beat the beaver drum, and I won't plug my ears. Your words are welcome.

Remember, the soap box is only about 12 inches off the ground.:p

[Fedora]

Andykev wrote:,"Remember, the soap box is only about 12 inches off the ground." It is indeed. Good thing too. We might all be suffering from broken bones if it were higher. And then it would be harder to eat our hat.LOL Fedora

[kent]

Hrmm, noticing mercury in the thread reminds me..

Have any of you encountered a hat soaked in mercury? Kinda off period, but maybe one of you have an old top hat or the like with the luster. Is there a way to re-create the luster without the insanity side-effects, or has it been completely forgotten nowdays?

[Andykev]

Mercury was used in the felting process to tighten up and improve the quality. New chemicals (???) are used today. Mercury is obviously a heavy metal, and has very serious side effects. Don't eat too much salmon or other fish kind of thing. The bad physical effects were due to repeated exposure to mercury and it's vapors.

I doubt you can determine today which hat was made by mercury and which one wasn't. Unless you are a chemist and have a lab for testing.

[Fedora]

I recall reading that hydrogen peroxide and some other chemical was used to replace the mercury when it was banned in the 40s. I don't know if this is still used today, or if it has been changed. Perhaps a superior chemical was found. Hard to get current info on felt making. This leads back to the beaver felt deal. It was discovered a long, long time ago that beaver fur in its natural state(uncarroted) would produce a strong, fine felt due to the structure of the fine fibers. Other underfurs available in that part of the world would make felt too, but was quite inferior to the beaver, unless it was treated with the mercury. Treated with the mercury, rabbit too would make a strong, fine felt. OF course as time went by, the beaver fur was treated as well because this would make it even stronger, denser, finer. Just some info I discovered awhile back after several hours of search online. I am afraid that the ancient art of feltmaking is slowly becoming extinct. Sure, folks still know how to make it, but with hats not being popular, and most felt being made by huge corporations with the bottom line superceding quality, the final result isn't always pretty. Do you realize that outside of Optimo there are few really custom hatters left? By that, I mean hatters that try to specify the type of felt produced for them. As the economics change and fewer hats are sold, we may be left with only vintage hats-a finite number. Fedora

[Art Fawcett]

please share with this old hardhead

You're on Fedora!!! As I get back into my research periodically, I'll share with you and the group what I find. Here is what I am sure of. Beaver, the actual fur, is considered the best/easiest for the felt making process with it's barbed characterisitics, however, we then have to consider what makes the "best" hat. This is where I split hares ( pardon the pun) with you. And, by the way, we really ARE splitting hairs here. I am going to have to re-find the research, but the most expensive hat that Stetson ever offered ( not felt body) was the "Clear Nutria". Even by using your own logic, wouldn't this mean a more expensive process, by using more expensive belly fur, and better finishing? Again, I'm splitting hairs here, but doesn't this make sense? If it does, then your theory about pure beaver being best has a problem. If it was not the top priced hat produced, why not? This actually can be fun in finding the answers, hardhead or not.LOL

[Art Fawcett]

WOW...in the time it took to writye my last post we have 10 more!!! Fedora, if it is in the Stetson book that the highest priced hat ever by Stetson was a 15K beaver, then I stand corrected. What was the highest mass produced hat fedora?

[Fedora]

Hey Art, this book lists the Clear Nutria and the Premier line as the highest quality "for sale" hats. Of course, whether this was indicative of a particular period in the Stetson history, I am not sure. And no mention is made of what blend the Premier line was. I may have to ask for someone to pass the hot sauce. Of course, that same book made note of the 15k hat as the most expensive ever made by Stetson, and like I said earlier, it was pure beaver. I have a notion, unproven, that since Nutria was a very high quality felt, being an aquatic animal like the beaver, it was cheaper to buy due to the fact that these animals could be farmed like mink and chinchilla. Beaver, on the other hand seems to be a free spirit, and you can't economically farm them. So, it may have been an availability/price factor as well. This is conjecture of course. I look forward to any info you run across in the future. Did you get the link that I sent you? regards, Fedora

[Art Fawcett]

Did you get the link that I sent you? regards, Fedora

No I didn't fedora, can you either post it here or try again?

[jpdesign]

Nutria was so expensive for one reason, and it is the same as sable and mink today, it is the rarety. If stetson wanted to make a nutria hat today Luisiana would be happy to let them com down and wipe out the nutria population there. The are over run. Nutria used to have to come from one place, Argentina. It was the importing that cost so much because they were a pest there too, and it was also exotic. Nutria have taken such a strong hold in Luisian that cops are driving through towns at night spotlighting and shooting them. Other wildlife is deing off because the nutria are taking over. Stetson could get as many at they wanted very cheaply, but it isn't exotic anymore. The top hat sold now is a 1,000 x beaver and chinchila blend. There are also sable and mink blends. But they are just a rarity, that is where the cost comes from. It's an artificial rarity because RHE(the parent compan of Stetson, Resistol, Charly one horse, and Bradford) want it to be. They controll two of the three felting plants in the U.S.

[Matt Deckard]

That is good to know JP and it is nice to see you around these parts.

[havershaw]

I actually saw the cops in Louisiana doing the spotlight and shoothing thing on Insomniac one night.

[jrh]

deleted

[Andykev]

He is ablsoutely right on one thing and I have not considered this (I drink nights and oops Im on this nights too...hahahah)

Fedora is correct- and I believe his focus is on an "adventurer hat" or one for the outdoors. In that case, no substitute for BEAVER. Maybe a blend with some Nutria.

I- on the other hand, am a city boy, and think in terms of the 1940 movies shot in LA and SF....so I am a DRESS HAT. For those, hare and beaver , or other blends.

NO I don't think my Optimo would water a horse to the last drop. Fedora wins this one.

[hatman]

Ok, I don't know too much about which is better pure beaver or a blend, but I am wanting to make a hat for myself and I'm fairly sure that 100% pure beaver is what they used way back when.
So where can someone purchase a beaver hat body?? Any help is appreciated. thanks,
hatman

[Art Fawcett]

Hatman, Winchester in Tennnessee is the only one i know of offering pure beaver, but there are more that I haven't done business with so please don't take that as gospel. JPDesign or gladhatter can probably be more help. Good luck

[Michaelson]

Where is the 'Winchester' co. LOCATED in Tennessee, if I may ask? Regards. Michaelson

[Art Fawcett]

I'll have to get back to you Michaelson. the beaver body that Andy pictured for the lounge came from Winchester, but I didn't buy it, a friend did and sent it to me. I'll call tonight to get the correct info.

[Michaelson]

I'd appreciate that, Art. I live 7 miles from Winchester, TN. There is a 'hat' company there, per se, but they state they make ball caps, so I can't believe it's them, but who KNOWS what folks make behind closed factory doors? Especially since they don't sell to the public, so there's nothing to go by. Regards. Michaelson

[Art Fawcett]

Michaelson,
I couldn't reach my friend but in thumbing through my notes I found this.
Winchester Hat. Co., Tennessee, 931-967-0686 and the name "Sue". Just my scribbling, but there it is!! I still don't know what town it's in but the phone # should do it.

[BD Jones]

I belive this is the place:

Winchester Hat Corp
725 David Crockette Hwy
Winchester
TN 37398

I did a Google search and found it. Hope this helps.

[Art Fawcett]

Thanks BD..now I have it also!!

[jrh]

I am certainly not a hatter or an expert. The master hatters making me hats generally say pure beaver is better then a blend with rabbit or hare. Having done some research on the historic hat industry I found this to be common belief.

Blends with more exoitc furs such as mink are a different story. I know Milton Johnson of Montecisti Custom Hats offers some such blends...but they are very pricey.

I'd talk to the hatter you trust... reveiw your finances and needs and decide from an educated position.

I have done that and get felt fur hats in 100% beaver from Rand hats. Milton offers different grades of 100% beaver, the better being too over the top for me. A fine beaver hat, without fancy band, ought cost about $550 to 700.00, depending on trimmings.

[jrh]

The picture of the hat body Mr Z shows as pure beaver at the beginning of this thread ,appears to me not natural color beaver, but bleached. Natural beaver is a taupe color. I own one.

[jrh]

Tetracholroethene is used in treating pelts these days. The days of using mercury are gone and an old mercury treated hat may pose a health risk.

The exact methods of using mercury in the carroting process were closley kept secrets by the hatters. The original hatters in Connecticut were from Germany, Belgium, and France. They didn't share the methods.

This I know as I have extensively researched the historic hat industries as part of the environmental assessment and remediation of this historic industrial factories.

Winchester is owned by Stratton hats and produces felt hoods. Most felt hoods are from Eastern Europe these days. The environmental regualtions are less strict in Eastern Europe then North America. Trust me, I am an environmental regulator.

[Andykev]

Originally posted by jrh
The picture of the hat body Mr Z shows as pure beaver at the beginning of this thread ,appears to me not natural color beaver, but bleached. Natural beaver is a taupe color. I own one.

This hat is owned by Art. I just took a photo of it. It is taupe in color. My flash and the lighting in the room washed out the photo. Yes, it is beaver.

[Art Fawcett]

jrh
The beaver body shown at the start of this thread came from Winchester but since I didn't buy it I can't with 100% certainty swear that it is pure beaver. I CAN tell you that with digital photos the colors are normally lighter than in the flesh. A case in point is the hat worn by Jeff bridges in Seabisquit. In reality it is a dingy grey but on screen and in Andykev's pics it shows up light pearl. At least 2 shades lighter.

[hatman]

Thanks Art, you have been a lot of help.
I will start calling right away.
Regards,
hatman

[Michaelson]

That's the place, and all they advertise here is making ballcaps. Interesting indeed. Guess I see a drive down the road in the VERY near future. Regards. Michaelson

[Fedora]

That place is not far from me, just a few hours. I wonder if they would take us on a tour, with free samples?? :D Fedora

[Michaelson]

Heck, if you put it that way, I'm just a few hours away from you too! We could go over in the Plymouth and storm the gates! (grins) Seriously, it's just an old grey warehouse type building, and to tell you the truth, I've NEVER seen anyone around it, so my curiousity is peaked here about what the heck this is all about. Like I said before, all they ever say about the place is they make ball caps, which made sense, as Wilson sporting goods is here (baseball bats), as well as a couple tanneries that supply leather for the production of softballs, so the sports connection worked out for me. Regards. Michaelson

[Pat_H]

"The Stetson Company used fur from the American and Canadian beaver and muskrat, "nutria" from the Agrentine coypu, and fur from the hare from Continental Europe and the Scottish and English coney (a European rabbit) to make their felt. The best quality fur from the beaver, muskrat, and coypu was the belly fur; from the hares and coney the back fur was best. The higher quality of fur used to make the felt, the more expensive the hat made from that felt sould be prime considerations in pricing Stetson hats. HATS MADE OF NUTRIA OR BEAVER WERE NOTED AMONG THE STETSON TRADEMARKS AS THESE WERE THE HIGHEST QUALITY FELTS"

Obviously, the heavier Beaver hat body shown above is raw: hours of sanding, brushing, and finishing will produce an excellent hat. It is a tight hat, good fur, great touch, but is will end up being a heavyweight felt hat. It is a dress hat weight. Not a cowboy hat. :eek:

Somebody suggested I look up beaver and Stetson, which I did. This is certainly an interesting quote.

[carter]

They still hunt nutria, in large numbers (the nutria not the hunters), in Louisiana.

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2008/07/gunning_for_nutria_at_the_17th.html

Interesting article but, READ THIS THREAD. It is a discussion from a few years ago but will prove interesting to some of our new hat-obsessed members.

[Craig Robertson]

This quote from the above article on nutrias "...If nothing else, nutria hunting is great training, Griffin says: The SWAT team members must shoot from a moving vehicle at a moving target."

It's nice to know the New Orleans SWAT team have something to use for target practice...perhaps using animals to practice killing is not a really good thing to brag about.

[Justdog]

There were so many different felt-making processes over the last 200 years, that I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m sure that everybody?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s right in their thinking to some degree. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve heard that beaver belly fur is hard to beat. What I will add as far as the price of beaver pelts goes is that the top hat craze during the 1800?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s drove the beaver to the brink of extinction. Rarity always plays a part in the cost of something. Today the beaver is no longer on the endangered species list. The price difference in pelts could come from the fact that nutria and rabbits are considered pests. The difference in the hat-product virtues of the different pelts might not translate to the open market price of each. Cheers

Think what you said has a lot of merit. I never heard of Nutria before so I looked it up. It was a bit of a crisis in Louisiana and had the potential to destroy the wetlands. It was developed as a source of felt and became expensive. Beaver as you stated was scarce. Market demand therefore played a role at varying times. On a post here it clearly puts Nutria and then number 1 quality below beaver xx hats. On the subject of felt quality and feel I have several vintage price points in OR style hats. Each felt is different. The softness the firmness and it is not related to the price. As I aquire a few hats only physical touch and feel reveals these differences. So far each hat has a different quality of felt.