Stetson felt question

[fedoralover]

Does anyone know how the different Vintage Stetson felt lines equate to each other? In the vintage line up you have some that just say Stetson, others are the Royal, Royal Deluxe, Imperial and also the Premier. Then there are the playboy, stetsonian, sovereign and a few others. Now I've also seen vintage stetsons that say Stetson 20, or Stetson 25 and even Stetson 100. I know that the 20, 25 and 100 stand for the price of the hat at the time it was sold. But did stetson make a different quality of felt for each one of these lines? Or did they simply take a Royal Stetson and put a Stetson 20 on it, likewise did they take a stetson 100 and put an Imperial label on it? Art or Andy, you two are the ones most likely to know, but if anyone else has a clue I'd really like to know. I e-mailed stetson and asked but they haven't answered.

regards fedoralover

[Fedora]

I can't add much, but according to my Stetson book, the Premier and Clear Nutria at one time in their history was their finest felt. The most expensive. Stetson used the "x" system on their beaver blends. Here is how they originally used it. 3x =30 bucks, 4x 40 bucks, all the way to 10x (100 % beaver) at 100 bucks. I think as times changed, so did the way and the names that they gave their felt lines. While the x system was used in their western hats, it was used in the dress lines as well. The standard felt on real early stetsons, both staple and dress was call no. 1 quality. I would be interested in finding out when the Royal and Imperial line came out. I assume the 30s. I know the Royal Deluxe was added in 47 or 48. I would have to check the book to see for sure. That is one weakness of the book that I bought. Not enough info on the felt lines. Plenty of history on the company though. I am afraid much of what we would want to know has been lost. Hopefully Art or Andy can tell us more. Fedora

[fedoralover]

That fills in some gaps, but still leaves open the question if they cross labeled some hats. For instance consider the Open Road and Stratoliner. The Open Road continues to be made and was and is produced in many different quality lines. From a 3X all the way to a Imperial. Whereas the Stratoliner was only produced in a Royal stetson line. At least that is the only line I've ever seen it in. The Stratoliner and the Open Road look very similar, but the brims were flanged differently. The Stratoliner had more curl in the back. They were discontinued in the early 60s and hence are more rare. Now it makes sense to me that the Royal Stratoliner and the Royal Open Road were probably the same hat body with just a few finishing differences. Whereas you will see Open Road 20s or 25s on the sweatbands, but you will also see Open Road Royal Deluxe's or a Royal Open Road. I would like to know if there was a different felt for each one of these or if they would take the same felt body that was going to be a Royal Deluxe and also used it for a Stetson 25 or something like that. Knowing this can help one to discern their quality and value. Since a stetson 100 could possible be the same as a Imperial Stetson. Or a Stetson 25 could be the same as a Stetson Royal Deluxe. Or they could be entirely different felt bodies. Inquiring minds want to know.

regards fedoralover

[Fedora]

I see what you mean. Perhaps our vintage expert Art will check in and fill in some gaps. I do know one thing. If you think you can get any info out of Stetson, forget about it. I use to have their 800 number given out to hat retailers and used it to talk to them a couple of times. You basically get folks who are young, and who have worked at Stetson or Hatco for only a few years. The employee turn over must be fairly high. They can tell you what is offered currently, but even after passing me around to a couple of different folks, I still came up empty handed. I made the calls in regards to the Indy fedora years ago in my quest. I did learn from those phone calls that the tallest hat they block in the dress hats is 5 inches now. Fedora

[havershaw]

Somewhere in this forum was info on this. I will try to find it...

arrrgh. must be on the old Fedora Lounge. if anyone has a link to that, I'm pretty sure someone...maybe MattDeckard?...got some info from an old-timer at Stetson, and they listed the various grades from lowest to highest, Imperial being the highest. I can recall for sure that it went Royal Stetson, Royal Stetson Deluxe, Imperial, but there may have been others inbewteen those and definitely there were others before.

Anyone know anything about the Stetson Custom V? I just picked one of those up and I dig it. I was curious if anyone knew anything about this felt line, as I had never heard of it before. I'm guessing it's 1940s, as it has no plastic on the liner but has the same Royal Stetson liner my other 40s hats have.

[Dusty Rhodes]

Havershaw,
I have one of the Custom V's myself and it's a beuatiful hat. There are some pics of it here: http://public.fotki.com/formerblueangel/vintage_hats/
Mine strikes me as 1950's. I collect Stetson hats ads and use those as a guesstimate as to a hat's age. I have a Steston Whippet and have seen ads dated between 1948 and 1952. So not always accurate but puts me in the ball park. WEll back to my Benny Goodman Story DVD.
Dusty

[havershaw]

That one's cooler than mine.

No, mine's good too...but I really like that one you've got there. You certainly have some nice hats. i think the bash on #10 is one of the greatest bashes I've ever seen. I'm going to try to copy that in my Cavanagh (if I ever get it off the block)...

[Dusty Rhodes]

Thank you sir! Another one of my Ebay finds and one of my favorite hats. BTW, #1 and 10 are the same hat. I have it in for a cleaning and reblock now with a local Hatter. The fellow will shape it back the same way it was when I gave it to him. I had Joe Peters Jr. look it over and he found a tag inside saying it was made at the Philly plant so we figured pre-1943 because that's when Steston moved to St Louis. I have not verfied that info through other sources but have no reason to doubt Junior as his reputation is quite well known on here and COW :-)
Dusty

[Fedora]

Hmmm. Before 43 means the Philli plant. I hope this is true. All of my Stetsons are from Philli :D

[Andykev]

I have to tip my hat to Fedora on this one, and for Art when he returns from LA from the Expo show. (hope you sold my hat).
My Stetson book states that the numbers were for the price at the time. I have owned and seen Art's Playboy. It is in my opinion a "cheaper" hat. No liner, and the Playboy name seems to imply the younger (hence less affluent) set. The felt of course is good from a vintage stand point.
Art's Playboy hat is very very clean, near mint. The felt is tight. No liner. Lightweight.

I have Stetson ROYAL, and ROYAL DELUXE, and the WHIPPET. The Royal Deluxe is very good, but an EARLIER ROYAL is better. It is very hard to judge the quality between the two. The Whippet has the best "shape" with the taller crown, but again it could have been made earlier and on taller blocks.

It is late, but Monday I will post Pics of the 3 or 4 Stetsons described. I also have a mint 50's..but don't right now remember the label style.

[Dusty Rhodes]

I wonder if that is the Playoy I sold him not long ago. I got it in and it jsut didn't look right on my face so right back out the door it went. And no liner was a turn off. Andy, was it a 7 3/8 Long Oval, silver in color with a 1 inch or smaller silver band?
Dusty

[Art Fawcett]

I wonder if that is the Playoy I sold him not long ago

Hi Dusty, yup, thats the one. The Playboy was a summer hat. It is meant to be light weight felt and the liner just adds weight to it. Many summer hats were made like that.
Fedoralover, I cannot add much to this discussion as i am not a Stetson expert, but I CAN add that Fedora is right in his post that the Royal Deluxe entered the scene in '47. I don't remember where i got that info but it stuck ( amazingly enough)

[Dusty Rhodes]

Roger that Art. A fine hat, just didn't look right on me, and man was I bummed about that! It looked good in the pcitures but it wasn't meanto be Cherie <sigh> However COMMA I am glad it has found a home worthy of it's condition and quality :D
Dusty

[fedoralover]

Well Art if you don't know I will probably try to contact Gary Rosenthall at hatco again. I've called him twice and the last time he seemed a little peeved at having to answer my questions. Perhaps it was just a bad time for him. He's worked for stetson for around 30 years and after he's gone I'm afraid all history will probably be lost as nobody else there seems to have a clue.

regards fedoralover

[Fedora]

Please do that fedoralover. And if you don't mind, mention to him that in at least one period of the Stetson history, the Stetson Book says that the Clear Nutria and the Premier line was two of the highest quality felt hats offered for sale. I think in our conversations, you mentioned that you thought he said the Imperial was higher than the Premier. Of course, 30 years would only take him back to 1970, well past the heyday of the stetson line of hats. So, he may not be privy to the vintage Stetsons. regards, Fedora

[havershaw]

I just took my Royal Stetson Deluxe all apart for reblocking purposes...the liner was taped in (and this was very old tape), and I couldn't find any signs of it having been sewn in. OK - weirder still, I found the little red-and-white tag which calimed it was made by Stetson in Canada. the tag looked exactly like the ones which came from Philadelphia, only it said it came from somewhere in Canada (it's soaking in the sink just now and I can't get to to it to tell you exactly what it said).

weird, no? I didn't even realize that Stetson made hats in Canada. The felt is pretty nice...not as nice as my Stetson Vitafelt, though.

I was also not aware that Stetson Playboys did come with a liner. Guess I can take the one I transplanted into mine out now...

[Dusty Rhodes]

I have a Royal Stetson Playboy with a liner in it that says Royal Stetson Vita-Felt or something to that effect. I need to shoot some pictures of that thing and post on my public photo album page. When I get home tonight, I'll look into taking some shots for you nice folks.
Dusty

[Dusty Rhodes]

OK the pcitures can be found here: http://public.fotki.com/formerblueangel/vintage_hats/

[J. M. Stovall]

I know this is a really old thread to dig up, but I'm trying to figure out how old this open road I have is. It says Royal Stetson Vita-Felt on the liner and band, but there is not any good info under the band about the manufacture location. The liner is also taped in like this thread mentions earlier, and there is a price tag on the inside of the liner with a $10.00 price and the numbers 11140 30 above it, purchased from the Young Men's Shop-Washington D.C.

Any info would be really appreciated!
Thanks

[Tony in Tarzana]

My Royal Stetson homburg has stickers under the sweat band that say "Philadelphia USA" and give a re-order number. 1943 or earlier? It's some darn nice felt, stiff in the Homburg style but soft to the touch.

My Open Road has no reorder stickers but it does have a tiny union label printed on the back of the size tag, and a little sticker on the back of the sweat that says "Inspected by Mary." Thanks, Mary!

[Art Fawcett]

Gents I was told long ago that the Royal Stetson was introduced in 1947 but never tried to verify it because of the source, so nothing earlier than that would work. I know this wont help date the hat other than to offer an "earliest date" for you.

[Fedorista]

... It says Royal Stetson Vita-Felt on the liner and band, but there is not any good info under the band about the manufacture location...


Vita-Felt was only produced for a couple years after being introduced in 1940 - 1941.


Gents I was told long ago that the Royal Stetson was introduced in 1947 but never tried to verify it because of the source, so nothing earlier than that would work...

The Vita-Felts I've seen were Royal Stetsons.

[Art Fawcett]

Thats a much earlier introduction than my research has indicated Fedorista, can you help me out & point to where it can be researched? I am always looking to learn more.

[J. M. Stovall]

Thanks guys, that at least puts me in the right era.

[Fedorista]

Art, there is an old Stetson ad that shows hats raised at a ship launching. Captioned "LAUNCHED!" for the new Vita-Felt process, it reads "Stetson 'Royal Stetson' Vita-Felts." I have seen it dated as early as 1940, but no date on the ad itself.

Vita-Felts are definitely as old as 1942 because I've seen a Stetson Eagle ad which touts the "exclusive Stetson Vita-Felt process."

[feltfan]

I have a Vita-Felt Stetson that looks pretty darn old.

Here is the sweatband:

http://static.flickr.com/68/166691906_24ec687f0d.jpg

It's a soft roan sweat, like the ones I see in hats from the 30s and
before (tho I wouldn't guess it's that old).

Here's the liner. Sorry it's a bit washed out in the photo
but I'm tight on time:

http://static.flickr.com/29/166691721_5214500ab1.jpg

The lettering on both look pretty darn old fashioned to me.
Any guesses?

As I recall, in an earlier thread Powers said he thought
Vita-Felt was introduced in 1942, but I don't recall why
he thought that.

[Matt Deckard]

OK - weirder still, I found the little red-and-white tag which calimed it was made by Stetson in Canada. the tag looked exactly like the ones which came from Philadelphia, only it said it came from somewhere in Canada (it's soaking in the sink just now and I can't get to to it to tell you exactly what it said).

weird, no? I didn't even realize that Stetson made hats in Canada.

According to the current owner of Biltmore, Biltmore used to own the Stetson name in Canada.

[Dickie]

This is somewhat late for this thread but I have a Stetson Homburg made in England in 1968 (I know this as the box it came in has March 1968 stamped on it and it has the box logo stamped into the hat) which has exactly the same markings and liner symbols as yours... :)

[feltfan]

This is somewhat late for this thread but I have a Stetson Homburg made in England in 1968 (I know this as the box it came in has March 1968 stamped on it and it has the box logo stamped into the hat) which has exactly the same markings and liner symbols as yours... :)

Assuming you're talking about my Vita-Felt Stetson,
remember a couple of things:

- boxes and hats don't always match.
My own closet has lots of hats in boxes that are not original.

- some markings were used a long time with slight variations in
printing style and typeface.

Note that the sweatband on my Stetson is not "reeded". That is,
the leather is sewn directly to the felt. It has been many decades
since Stetson put together hats like that. I doubt any hat company
was doing that after the 40s.

Dating hats can be pretty challenging.

[Justdog]

If a Stetson Soveriegn 20 OR does not not have xx in the band does that mean it is pure felt? When did the X system originate?

[Woodfluter]

For what little it's worth, I recently purchased on OFAS a Stetson "The Sovereign" that seems to have a non-reeded sweatband, and it says "Vita-Felt" at the front of the sweatband. The dark brown sweatband is slightly fragile...I'm working on it with glue in places and dressing...but it has a wide ribbon plus a stingy brim (2 inches), so I thought it was possibly early '50s era. Could it be earlier? I thought the narrow brims came in mid-century. Maybe I'm wrong.

Side note: This is the finest felt I've ever seen. Real Cavanagh edge, thick but flexible, shapes wonderfully easily.

Any hints as to age?

- Bill

[thunderw21]

For what little it's worth, I recently purchased on OFAS a Stetson "The Sovereign" that seems to have a non-reeded sweatband, and it says "Vita-Felt" at the front of the sweatband. The dark brown sweatband is slightly fragile...I'm working on it with glue in places and dressing...but it has a wide ribbon plus a stingy brim (2 inches), so I thought it was possibly early '50s era. Could it be earlier? I thought the narrow brims came in mid-century. Maybe I'm wrong.

Side note: This is the finest felt I've ever seen. Real Cavanagh edge, thick but flexible, shapes wonderfully easily.

Any hints as to age?

- Bill

Mid-1950s to early 1960s would be my guess.

[feltfan]

Very hard to say without a photo.

Hard to believe Stetson still made hats without
reeded sweatbands into the 50s. Anyone know?

We have discussed Vita-felt before, so have a look
at the archives. My (faulty) memory tells me Stetson
started to use this name around 1941.

Sounds like a nice hat. Let's see it.

[jimmy the lid]

My (faulty) memory tells me Stetson
started to use this name around 1941.

I have come across ads for Vita-Felt lids dating from 1942, 1943 and 1944.

Cheers,
JtL

[mingoslim]

it says "Vita-Felt" at the front of the sweatband . . .
Any hints as to age?
- Bill

I am pretty sure that Stetson launched its "Vita-Felt" process in 1941 or so, and that the tage had pretty much disappeared by the end of the War . . .
That would date your fedora to the early to mid 40s . . .

Remember . . . even though wide brims is considered the style of the 40s, and narrower brims came into style in the 50s . . . There were exceptions to brim widths, just as there are now. And narrower brims (2inches) were very much in style in the 30s, so you may have a 40s hat that is styled "old school".

Of course, with a pic, we could perhaps say more . . .

[Woodfluter]

I am pretty sure that Stetson launched its "Vita-Felt" process in 1941 or so, and that the tage had pretty much disappeared by the end of the War . . .
That would date your fedora to the early to mid 40s . . .

Remember . . . even though wide brims is considered the style of the 40s, and narrower brims came into style in the 50s . . . There were exceptions to brim widths, just as there are now. And narrower brims (2inches) were very much in style in the 30s, so you may have a 40s hat that is styled "old school".

Of course, with a pic, we could perhaps say more . . .

Thanks Mingoslim. This is helpful.
You wanted pics, we got pics:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7782/aapoststetsonsovereign1uj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8681/aapoststetsonsovereignbqa2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5134/aapoststetsonsovereignbok5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7144/aapoststetsonsovereignlgc5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Note:
1. The sweatband is reeded and is black. Soft and thin.
2. "Vita-Felt" is in a different (Courier) font from the other example posted here.
3. The liner is cream-colored, and the plastic insert at top has a nice welt around it.
4. It is definitely a Cavanagh edge.
5. The model name seems to be "The Sovereign".
6. This is the softest, most velvety and dense felt I've ever...felt. Like thick butter.

So what think you?

Also, re shorter brims being "in" during the '30s, yep. This is a picture of the framed cover of Farmers' Wife for June 1932 (the Magazine for Farm Women, More than A Million Circulation) that hangs on the wall over my computer.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1082/aapostfarmerswife1932jd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

- Bill

[mingoslim]

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7782/aapoststetsonsovereign1uj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


And it does look very 30s to me . . .
But the lining, sweat, and logo all beg it as being late 1960s or early 1970s, in my honest opinion . . .

Still . . . very sharp . . .
And it just goes to show that the Vita-Felt tag did survie the War years . . .

Mark

[Woodfluter]

And it does look very 30s to me . . .
But the lining, sweat, and logo all beg it as being late 1960s or early 1970s, in my honest opinion . . .
Mark

Yep, that was what I was thinking...I was guessing 1960s based on sweat and logo, possibly near end of Cavanagh brim treatment. But the style is ambiguous.

Like I said, this is truly amazing felt. As a sort of measure, with its slightly lower crown and shorter brim it still weighs 5.2 oz which is the same as the Federation IV Deluxe and an Open Road I have in the same size. Yet is isn't stiff at all, very soft but dense and thick, and possessing a kind of plastic memory. I really don't want to start another thread to ask this, but does anyone make felt like this anymore? Do any of the custom hatmakers that frequent this board have access to this quality?
- Bill