This generation of kids...

Mr_D. · Sep 3, 2010

Heather said:
My daughter just barely went back to school on Monday (she's 7) & already has a 4 day weekend for Labor Day! Apparently, a 3 day weekend isn't good enough? Idk, I'm just feeling frustrated & disappointed with how things are going for this generation of kids and I feel like they today get waaaay to much time off and way to much slack. Seriously, not a month goes by that they don't have at least an extra day off for whatever reason. Example: a whole week off for Thanksgiving? When I went to school we only got a long weekend! They're coddled & spoiled. I see it every day! They don't know what hard work is, nor do a lot of adults for that matter. Give me the people from the WW2 generation...they knew what it was to sacrifice and work hard! Granted, it was a tough time to live but at least it built character and made them appreciate what they had! I hope I don't offend...these are just my observations....

ETA: I'm not saying my generation is/was perfect but we didn't have all this instant gratification that kids today do. Technology is wonderful and a downfall at the same time.

What they are doing is little by little working schools into year round. the longer breaks you see for little holidays and such are how year round schools work. So in a few short years all public schools in the US will be year round (thank god).

Baron Kurtz · Sep 3, 2010

(I have some claim to expertise in this area, as it forms the major focus of my scientific research career.)

John in Covina said:
While there is a real concept of Morning People and Non-Morning People a lot of people can shift their internal time clocks by following a daily routine.

No, they can't; that's flat out false, and runs contrary to the way in which the clock works. The body clock is inherent and independent of routine. It is simply reset each morning by light. The specific way in which it is reset is what determines whether one will fall into the owl or lark cohort, or somewhere in between. The concept that you have some kind of control over it is erroneous. It would be like saying you have some kind of volitional control over blood pressure. You don't, but the body clock controls it, along with heart rate and many other aspects of basic physiology.

John in Covina said:
Just as when we fly to other time zones and can reset to that zone , it is possible to do.

This is correct, and "jetlag" is a measure of the time it takes the clock to reset. You notice how everyone takes a different time to get over jetlag? That's because their clocks are inherent and independent of routine, and they take longer to entrain to the new timezone or "forget" the old timezone. But a morning person is a morning person in whatever timezone they travel to, once their "clock" has re-entrained*.

bk

There's a funny story of a group of scientists in Germany who believed that physical location and not light, was the determining factor in setting the clock. They actually flew bottles of flies from Hamburg to the US and were stunned when Lo! and Behold! the flies got active right around dawn, US time.

jamespowers · Sep 3, 2010

reetpleat said:
There is much scientific evidence that the teenage brain works on a different cycle than adults, and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of teaching them to get up early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well. better to let them get to school rested.

The correlary to that would of course be following; that to its logical conclusion when they enter their working life----
There is much scientific evidence that the adult brain works on a different cycle and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of going to work early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well? Better to let them get to work rested.

Let me know if you can find an out to that so I can use it on my boss.

lol

jamespowers · Sep 3, 2010

LizzieMaine said:
One of the most important things school should teach kids is that the world does not, in fact, revolve around them -- the most important thing for anyone to understand who hopes to survive in the workplace.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Jasmine Jolene · Sep 3, 2010

just to add my 2 cents....

i used to start school at 8.35am, and would leave at about 8.15 (walking) to get there. i'd finish at 3.30 ish, and then most nights would be out for ballet lessons etc.

i swear if i had had to start school any earlier i would never have been able to concentrate. i didn't go to bed eccessively late, but i've never been an early bird, and i don't think this is going to change!

my stepson until recently was in primary school for 8, start at 9 as him mum was working long hours. he didn't get home before 6pm, and he was exhausted. strange how littler kids are always able to get up at the crack of dawn on the weekend but not during the week!!

Puzzicato · Sep 3, 2010

jamespowers said:
Let me know if you can find an out to that so I can use it on my boss. lol

Flexible working hours are encouraged in London (don't know about the rest of the UK) partly because it frees up public transport in rush hour - or spreads it over 4 hours. I can start work any time between 8am - 10am and finish any time between 4pm - 6pm, as long as I do my hours during the week. My workplace is pretty evenly split between those of us who like to start early and finish early, and those who like to start late and finish late.

jamespowers · Sep 3, 2010

Puzzicato said:
Flexible working hours are encouraged in London (don't know about the rest of the UK) partly because it frees up public transport in rush hour - or spreads it over 4 hours. I can start work any time between 8am - 10am and finish any time between 4pm - 6pm, as long as I do my hours during the week. My workplace is pretty evenly split between those of us who like to start early and finish early, and those who like to start late and finish late.

No such luck here unless you find a job that has later set hours in the first place. [huh] Then again with the economy the way it is, you take what you can get.

AmateisGal · Sep 3, 2010

jamespowers said:
No such luck here unless you find a job that has later set hours in the first place. [huh] Then again with the economy the way it is, you take what you can get.

Some companies are becoming more flexible with their work hours - I know Best Buy offers working from home for their employees and it seems to be quite a success. Unfortunately with my job, that's not even an option as I literally am working with paper and pen. And even though I could have worked at home at my last job, they did not allow me to do so because it wouldn't have been "fair" to the other employees at the company who had to work in the office. [huh]

jamespowers · Sep 3, 2010

AmateisGal said:
Some companies are becoming more flexible with their work hours - I know Best Buy offers working from home for their employees and it seems to be quite a success. Unfortunately with my job, that's not even an option as I literally am working with paper and pen. And even though I could have worked at home at my last job, they did not allow me to do so because it wouldn't have been "fair" to the other employees at the company who had to work in the office. [huh]

Yeah, not an option for me either as I am hands on with the goods as well. I can't sell from home.

reetpleat · Sep 3, 2010

jamespowers said:
The correlary to that would of course be following; that to its logical conclusion when they enter their working life----
There is much scientific evidence that the adult brain works on a different cycle and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of going to work early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well? Better to let them get to work rested.
Let me know if you can find an out to that so I can use it on my boss. lol

If enough adults performed poorly getting up early, you better believe businesses would shift their work hours. Of course, businesses where high performance would not. But what is a school. A business where we want our kids to show up and put in the bare minimum performance, or one where we want an optimal environment. To think that if we jut force kids to get up we can somehow force them to learn and perform well is a false premise. They don't. And forcing them into a classroom in hopes that it will is silly.

LizzieMaine · Sep 3, 2010

jamespowers said:
Yeah, not an option for me either as I am hands on with the goods as well. I can't sell from home.

I've never had a job that wasn't closely tied to the clock -- which understandably makes me quite militant about such things, and a firm believer that the body can be trained to do what it doesn't want to do by sheer force of will. When I was in radio, I had to be at my typewriter at 315 AM six days a week, and on the air at 530. There was no such thing as "well, let's see if we can change the schedule" -- my life was ruled by the clock. I'm not naturally an early morning person, but I lived that schedule for the last nine years I was in radio -- and I was able, by pure self-discipline and a reliable alarm clock, to train myself to go to bed at 8 pm every night and get up at 3. I didn't ever *like* it, but I did it, because it was part of the job. If I hadn't had my mother standing over me with that pan of ice water when I was a kid, I don't know if I'd have been able to train myself quite as firmly...

reetpleat · Sep 3, 2010

Many believe that the modern school system was designed to train good industrial employees who do what they are told, follow orders and keep their mouths shut. if this is what you want you child to be, feel free to stick to outmoded concepts of education.

Where would the world be if Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein and many others simply were indoctrinated into believing the world did not revolve around them they should do what every else says to do, and not think for themselves.

teaching a little self discipline and delayed gratification is a good thing. But let's not consider it the only goal in education or life.

jamespowers · Sep 3, 2010

reetpleat said:
Many believe that the modern school system was designed to train good industrial employees who do what they are told, follow orders and keep their mouths shut. if this is what you want you child to be, feel free to stick to outmoded concepts of education.

Where would the world be if Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein and many others simply were indoctrinated into believing the world did not revolve around them they should do what every else says to do, and not think for themselves.

teaching a little self discipline and delayed gratification is a good thing. But let's not consider it the only goal in education or life.

Well, let's see, Bill Gates mother was a school teacher and sent her son to schools like Lakeside School where he was given a strict curriculm and held to a high standard. He studied until his junior year at Harvard, another high standard school. He dropped out to pursue his software company dreams. He found out quickly that the world didn't revolve around him at all.
Steve Jobs was adopted as his mother was unwed and she gave him up for adoption with the stipulation that the couple be college graduates as she was but the couple were nto in the end. He attended the old "follow orders and keep their mouths shut" public school system just as Gates did.
Thomas Edison's mother was a "follow orders and keep their mouths shut" cformer school teacher as well---from the REAL old school system. She basically home schooled him as he was a real pain in school. SHE could control him.
Einstein himself was a teacher of physics and mathematics. I am sure he would have been thrilled to have children running around his classroom thinking for themselves.

The idea you left out of the whole thing was not teaching them to think for themselves but HOW to think in the first place. What we have now is largely a WHAT to think school system. Learning how to think involves sitting down, following orders and being quiet while you are absorbing information and learning how to interpret it, filter it and aply it. It is not enough to seek and get knowledge. You have to be able to USE it.

Foofoogal · Sep 3, 2010

So in a few short years all public schools in the US will be year round (thank god).
__________________

Sorry but personally I think this is horrible. So glad I was a child when I was.

jamespowers · Sep 3, 2010

reetpleat said:
If enough adults performed poorly getting up early, you better believe businesses would shift their work hours. Of course, businesses where high performance would not. But what is a school. A business where we want our kids to show up and put in the bare minimum performance, or one where we want an optimal environment. To think that if we jut force kids to get up we can somehow force them to learn and perform well is a false premise. They don't. And forcing them into a classroom in hopes that it will is silly.

Obviously you aren't a parent or don't remember your parents influence over you. Believe me, I knew when I went to school it wasn't to eat lunch. It would not have been tolerated to just ship it in.
It is also obvious that you don't work in a large business. Offices are dead in the morning. Adults don't necessarily perform any better than children at early hours. The difference is that we do as Lizzie mentioned---train ourselves to work on a schedule we would never keep otherwise.

LizzieMaine · Sep 4, 2010

I think the natural, instinctive state of any sentient being is chaotic -- without an imposed sense of self-discipline, there's no control of random impulses. When a wild animal wants to eat, he eats. When he wants to sleep, he sleeps. When he wants to fight, he fights. A kid is no different -- their natural impulse is to do whatever they feel like doing at that precise moment, without any consideration of future consequences. It's the duty of society to impose order and structure on that natural sense of chaos -- for the kid's own good, as well as society's. Otherwise, we get Lord Of The Flies.

Which is why a responsible parent says "Get outta that bed before I tip you out."

jamespowers · Sep 4, 2010

LizzieMaine said:
I think the natural, instinctive state of any sentient being is chaotic -- without an imposed sense of self-discipline, there's no control of random impulses. When a wild animal wants to eat, he eats. When he wants to sleep, he sleeps. When he wants to fight, he fights. A kid is no different -- their natural impulse is to do whatever they feel like doing at that precise moment, without any consideration of future consequences. It's the duty of society to impose order and structure on that natural sense of chaos -- for the kid's own good, as well as society's. Otherwise, we get Lord Of The Flies.

Which is why a responsible parent says "Get outta that bed before I tip you out."

You are getting very near Teddy Roosevelt here:
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."

I say wake up and take a shower or I will put you in the shower as you are.

Works every time.

Paisley · Sep 4, 2010

I've had jobs that started at 6 a.m. and others that started at 3 p.m. In the Air Force, I sometimes had to get up a 2 a.m. for one thing or another. Not all of these schedules suited me, but it really did help to get to bed in time to get a certain amount of sleep.

I'm completely in favor of thinking for oneself, but you must know some basics first. (This is the same thing I pound on in the Learning to Dance thread: first, learn good basics.) Therein is one of the biggest frustrations I've had when trying to train coworkers: their inability to follow directions--i.e., the basics of how we do things at the office. They insisted on doing things their own way. (They weren't youngsters, either.) There was one in particular who couldn't follow a checklist of written directions. Another one did numbered steps in random order and wondered what she could be doing wrong.

I'm open to suggestions, but it has to be better than what we're already doing--and they didn't even know what we were already doing.

When I think about people who are at the top of whatever they do--dancing, medicine, admin work, accounting--yes, they have opinions, most (not all) are passionate about what they do, but to a person, they know the fundamentals backward and forward.

Mr Vim · Sep 4, 2010

Still being in the Coast Guard means I work all night shifts from time to time, and I'm usually at the night owl thread, hooting and hollering.

But as far as a year round school goes? No Sir, I don't like it; summer is a great time for children young or slightly older. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Puzzicato · Sep 4, 2010

LizzieMaine said:
I've never had a job that wasn't closely tied to the clock -- which understandably makes me quite militant about such things, and a firm believer that the body can be trained to do what it doesn't want to do by sheer force of will.

Of course it can - but does it produce the optimum performance?

This generation of kids...

Mr_D.

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I'll Lock Up

jamespowers

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Puzzicato

One Too Many

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AmateisGal

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reetpleat

Call Me a Cab

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reetpleat

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Foofoogal

Banned

jamespowers

LizzieMaine

jamespowers

Paisley

I'll Lock Up

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One Too Many

Puzzicato

One Too Many

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