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Lily Powers
06-30-2011, 02:17 AM
A thread in the Powder Room, "Comments You Get When You Dress Vintage,” veered into a lively and interesting discussion about gays in the Golden Age of Hollywood. So before the original thread got hijacked, I thought we could move the conversation over here.

I love to read books on old Hollywood and the topic of how same-gender relationships of characters were portrayed in those old films (both pre-code and after), documented bacchanalia of silent screen stars when they weren't on the screen, and the extremes the studios went to keep their top money earners closeted from the adoring (and ticket purchasing) public is a fascinating peek at another side of the silver screen. Thought it would be worthwhile to give the subject it’s own thread.

Lily Powers
06-30-2011, 02:40 AM
Rock Hudson was a good example of someone who was such a box office hit that studios did everything they could to keep his image as a ladies' man intact. Most people know about his marriage to Phyllis Gates, the secretary of his agent. But before that, Confidential magazine was ready to put Rock and his boys on the cover of their magazine. The studio got word of it and offered up a lesser star (and friend of Rock's), George Nader, to Confidential instead. The expose ruined Nader's career in the US, but he went on to do well in Europe. Rock knew that Nader's downfall in Hollywood was because of his star power being protected, so Rock made provisions for Nader in his will.
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la1maxHhNm1qaoe9vo1_500.jpg

Puzzicato
06-30-2011, 07:32 AM
Rock knew that Nader's downfall in Hollywood was because of his star power being protected, so Rock made provisions for Nader in his will.


I'd never heard that before - how awful for Nader but it shows Hudson in a very good light.

scotrace
06-30-2011, 07:57 AM
There is a grand story about Barbara Stanwyck, gathering blooms on both sides of the fence, poker games at Robert Taylor's house, John Wayne... ah well. Another time. ;-)

There are interesting whispers about the close neighbors Katharine Hepburn and Greta Garbo.

And then there's Billy Haines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haines), who, after being ruined as a silent film star by being outed, went on to a greater career as Interior Designer to the Stars.

Miss Golightly
06-30-2011, 08:16 AM
In Loving Garbo, Hugo Vickers claims that Mercedes De Acosta had affairs with both Garbo and Dietrich.....

Doctor Strange
06-30-2011, 08:29 AM
Don't forget golden era movie directors - George Curkor, James Whale, and Mitchell Leisen immediately come to mind.

(I'm sure there were many others, but I didn't want to start Wiki-ing dozens of names.)

Miss Golightly
06-30-2011, 08:38 AM
Ona Munson (her best known role was probably as Belle Watling in Gone with the Wind) was rumoured to be gay however was married three times. She sadly committed suicide at the age of 55.

LizzieMaine
06-30-2011, 08:39 AM
The unjustly-forgotten comedienne Patsy Kelly is my favorite other-side-of-the-fence-walker, and unlike most of her contemporaries she was out in the open about it. She was very successful as a second-lead comic relief figure in films of the thirties, but she got a bit too rowdy in the forties, and by the postwar era she was pretty much unemployable in Hollywood. So she moved in with Tallulah Bankhead -- who was very well known for swinging from both sides of the plate -- and became her *maid,* as well as filling in in other capacities as needed. There's an HBO miniseries in that story somewhere.

La Bankhead, meanwhile, seems to have been insatiable. A late friend of mine was in a show on Broadway with her in the mid-thirties, and was propositioned almost immediately. Being an innocent Southern girl, my friend had absolutely no idea what Tallu was getting at, and it didn't dawn on her until years later....

bunnyb.gal
06-30-2011, 10:33 AM
There is a grand story about Barbara Stanwyck, gathering blooms on both sides of the fence, poker games at Robert Taylor's house, John Wayne... ah well. Another time. ;-)

There are interesting whispers about the close neighbors Katharine Hepburn and Greta Garbo.

And then there's Billy Haines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haines), who, after being ruined as a silent film star by being outed, went on to a greater career as Interior Designer to the Stars.

What? The Duke?

I believe the beautiful Richard Barthelmess was rumoured to swing both ways; Nazimova, Clifton Webb and the Sal Mineo/James Dean/Natalie Wood stories spring to mind...

Funnily enough, as I write this my copy of "Wonder Bar" is staring at me; I seem to recall some pretty racy lavender behaviour in that film...

I find this whole subject fascinating too and I'm glad it's been started!

scotrace
06-30-2011, 10:50 AM
What? The Duke?

NOT The Duke. T'was he who told the story, years later. Punctuated with one of the best lines ever: "I used t'feel s'bad.... fer Bob..."

LizzieMaine
06-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Grant and Scott owned a beach house together thru the mid-30s, and the fan magazines were filled with beefy photos of them relaxing together at poolside. Conclusions were drawn.

djd
06-30-2011, 11:20 AM
The story of Cary and randolph circulated at the time and they just laughed it off then. There no evidence that he was gay, bisexual or anything else. You will not find a less homophobic person than me. I have many gay friends and a number of heroes who are or were gay. I really really object though to stories being made up where there is not one SHRED of evidence to back it up. I work in evidence.... 22 years in criminal investigation and a degree in history before that. Evidence is not some hack author quoting 'a close friend' (unnamed) saying 'oh yes, Cary/Errol/Clark was a complete queen!'. Charles Higham and more recently David Bret have made careers in making lies up about dead people. Annoys the he'll out of me (as you can tell!)

LizzieMaine
06-30-2011, 11:23 AM
They say that despite his prissy, nancing screen persona, Franklin Pangborn was actually one of the toughest men in Hollywood -- who enjoyed smoking black rope cigars, swilling Everclear straight from the bottle, once beat Wallace Beery senseless in the parking lot behind Ciro's, and bragged the length and breadth of Hollywood about the women he'd conquered. But when they say that, they're wrong.

TCMfan25
06-30-2011, 11:31 AM
The story of Cary and randolph circulated at the time and they just laughed it off then. There no evidence that he was gay, bisexual or anything else. You will not find a less homophobic person than me. I have many gay friends and a number of heroes who are or were gay. I really really object though to stories being made up where there is not one SHRED of evidence to back it up. I work in evidence.... 22 years in criminal investigation and a degree in history before that. Evidence is not some hack author quoting 'a close friend' (unnamed) saying 'oh yes, Cary/Errol/Clark was a complete queen!'. Charles Higham and more recently David Bret have made careers in making lies up about dead people. Annoys the he'll out of me (as you can tell!)

I retract my statement then :)

Lily Powers
06-30-2011, 01:39 PM
There is a grand story about Barbara Stanwyck, gathering blooms on both sides of the fence, poker games at Robert Taylor's house, John Wayne... ah well. Another time. ;-).

"Gathering blooms on both sides of the fence." Never heard that before; that cracks me up! Barbara Stanwyck was married to Frank Fay, a not so beloved vaudeville-to-film actor who was also believed to gay. His other love was alcohol, and many folks believe the original "A Star Was Born" was based on their relationship. Fay's style of comedy was very similar to Jack Benny's and if TCM ever shows "Matrimonial Bed" (1930) again, I recommend it for it's enjoyable comic timing.

LizzieMaine
06-30-2011, 01:40 PM
The greatest comment ever made about Frank Fay came from Fred Allen: "The last time I ever saw Fay, he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own hand."

djd
06-30-2011, 01:43 PM
Lol :)

MisterCairo
06-30-2011, 01:51 PM
And the rumours about Oscar Wilde being gay. The truth came out in Blackadder Goes Forth: Corporal Punishment. It turns out, the prosecutor was just THAT good:

Blackadder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Blackadder): I remember Massingbird's most famous case: the Case of the Bloody Knife. A man was found next to a murdered body. He had the knife in his hand. 13 witnesses had seen him stab the victim. And when the police arrived, he said "I'm glad I killed the bastard." Massingbird not only got him off; he got him knighted in the New Year's Honours List. And the relatives of the victim had to pay to wash the blood out of his jacket!Perkins: Yeah, he's a dab hand at the prosecution as well, sir.Blackadder: Yes, well, look at Oscar Wilde (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde).Perkins: Oh yes, butch ol' Oscar.Blackadder: Big, bearded, bonking, butch Oscar. The terror of the ladies. 114 illegitimate children, world heavyweight boxing champion and author of the best-selling pamphlet "Why I Like To Do It With Girls." And Massingbird had him sent down for being a woopsie.

Mahagonny Bill
06-30-2011, 02:28 PM
I recently learned that Raymond Burr was in a 35 year romantic relationship with Robert Benevides who worked on Perry Mason in the mid '50s and now runs the Raymond Burr Vineyards’ (http://www.raymondburrvineyards.com/) in California. It just goes to show that anyone can have a happy, quiet, life and not everyone who is gay causes a scandal.

Lily Powers
06-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Grant and Scott owned a beach house together thru the mid-30s, and the fan magazines were filled with beefy photos of them relaxing together at poolside. Conclusions were drawn.

During a night tour of Hearst Castle a couple of years ago, the docents were engaging and playful, dressed in period clothing, trying to take us back to the 1930's. There are photos of Cary Grant when he was a guest at the castle, and one of the docents pulled a note out from under a vase near the photo and said, "It says, 'meet me at the indoor pool at midnight... Cary,' Now what do you think that means?" he mysteriously asked. Obviously it meant that the indoor pool was our next spot to visit, but one chucklehead in the group opined, "That Randolph Scott is busy that night?"

People draw conclusions based on appearances, and I think that's how some of the implied same-gender relationships between characters were shown on screen. We bought the boxed DVD set of Hollywood Hoodlums Collection, and one of the movies is a film noir, 1955's "The Big Combo." Two tough guy thugs, Fante (Lee Van Cleef) and Mingo (Earl Holliman) are together all the time and even though they are henchmen, their relationship with each other is very kind, almost tender, as Fante calls Mingo honey at one point. They sleep in the same room and in one scene they are handed a box of money in a payoff, and Fante says, “The police will be looking for us in every closet in town.” It's really subtle, and arguably not concrete proof the two are gay, but just the fact that it's toyed with (the cops looking for them in closets) makes for an intricate weave in the storyline.

LizzieMaine
06-30-2011, 02:49 PM
Modern people tend to forget that it was very common at one time for same-sex roommates to share the same bed, with no sexual connotations whatsoever. When I was researching the "Amos 'n' Andy" radio scripts for my book, I came across quite a few scenes in which Amos and Andy were in bed together at night, discussing their problems before falling asleep -- scenes which reflected the real-life experience of their creators, who had shared a room and a bed together during their own bachelorhood. Those scenes today would provoke a wave of snickering wisecracks, but at the time they were simply a reflection of a working-class reality for which modern folk no longer have any contact.

There was also a 1936 script in which Amos and Andy, while visiting California, were hired as handymen at the home of Randolph Scott and Cary Grant. Grant and Scott, playing themselves, appeared in the episode as well, trading all sorts of cutesy "that was a swell-looking dive you took Randy! Not as swell as yours, Cary!" dialogue. If a recording of this episode ever surfaces, it will instantly be enshrined as the highest possible camp.

djd
06-30-2011, 02:58 PM
The long running, hugely popular, uk show Morcombe and Wise , regularly featured them in the same bed with no hint of a gay theme. It's a shame in some ways that that sort of innocence has gone.

Funnily enough , Eric Morcombe was a good friend of Cary Grant later in Grants life.

HadleyH
06-30-2011, 04:31 PM
I am no expert in this topic, but, two names have already been mentioned in this thread ... William Haines and George Cukor ... for some obscure reason a third name is often associated with the other two,Clark Gable ...


"Clark Gable got George Cukor fired from directing Gone With the Wind because gay Cukor called Gable "dear."

It didn't help that Cukor knew an interesting piece of gossip -- Gable had let gay actor William Haines service him in exchange for his start in movies -- which made their working relationship rather uncomfortable."


Gossip? rumor? true? false? We will never know! Anyway, all three men were great artists in their own field.

LizzieMaine
06-30-2011, 06:08 PM
One of the saddest cases is that of Ramon Novarro, considered the most gorgeous man on the screen in the late twenties. He resisted MGM's attempts to force him into a marriage-of-convenience to keep up his image, and when talkies came in he was unceremoniously dumped by the studio. He fell out of the public consciousness after that -- until he was brutally beaten to death in 1968 by two young men he had engaged for an evening at his home.

C-dot
06-30-2011, 06:24 PM
One of the saddest cases is that of Ramon Novarro, considered the most gorgeous man on the screen in the late twenties. He resisted MGM's attempts to force him into a marriage-of-convenience to keep up his image, and when talkies came in he was unceremoniously dumped by the studio. He fell out of the public consciousness after that -- until he was brutally beaten to death in 1968 by two young men he had engaged for an evening at his home.

What's even more sad about poor Ramon is what [expletive]s like Kenneth Anger have done to his memory by writing sensational rumours as fact. I can't repeat what he wrote here, but anyone who has read Hollywood Babylon will know what I'm referring to.

I read in Clara Bow: Runnin' Wild that Clara's best friend Tui Lorraine (who later became her stepmother) went "the lavender way," and was quite in love with Clara. Their friendship came to an acrimonious ending over her divorce from Clara's father. Watching Clara's films, its not hard to understand why Tui felt the way she did, even as a heterosexual! :)

Lily Powers
06-30-2011, 06:39 PM
Ramon Novarro and Norma Shearer - silent screen wowza in "The Student Prince in Old Heidelberg."

Novarro's murderers were brothers, 17 and 21. They received life sentences. Both were paroled at one time, both re-offended with sex crimes, and both ended up back behind bars. The younger one died in 2005 and the older one (who actually confessed he was the murderer) will be cozy in his prison cell until 2022.

Gregg Axley
06-30-2011, 08:08 PM
Glad that was cleared up about The Duke. Whew. :)
Oh yeah there were many back then that kept things quiet.
What I've found fascinating about this discussion, is the actor that became an interior decorator.
That's rolling with the punches, and keeping an eye open for new opportunities!
Probably made more doing that anyway.

Mojito
06-30-2011, 09:50 PM
Louise Brooks experimented a few times, and used to love to play up the idea that she was gay, but was fairly hetro on the scale of things. One of the people she did sleep with was Marion Davies' niece, her good friend Pepi Lederer, who was a confirmed lesbian. Brooksie was also supposed to have confided privately that the other "experiment" she had was with Greta Garbo. Brooks wrote interesting material on life in the Hearst Castle, and how the gay guests were sometimes given more latitude than other guests, probably largely because of Pepi's influence.

AtomicEraTom
06-30-2011, 10:06 PM
Gotta be careful what you say about ol' John Wayne. My dad and I got into a rather heated fight a couple weeks ago. He told me that Clint Eastwood would kick John Wayne's, well, keister. My mom ended up breaking us up lol


Glad that was cleared up about The Duke. Whew. :)


This thread reminded me of this news story

http://www.baynews9.com/article/news/2010/december/179707/Conway-Twittys-sexual-orientation-sparks-fight

scotrace
06-30-2011, 10:20 PM
William Haines Designs (http://www.williamhaines.com/) is still in business, and has always thrived. Mr. Haines passed away in 1974.

skyvue
06-30-2011, 10:59 PM
It was Haines' pal Joan Crawford who helped him launch his new interior design career. There's an excellent book about Haines, for those who are interested, call WISECRACKER (don't recall the author's name, offhand).

djd
06-30-2011, 11:56 PM
Director/Aviator Howard Hughes "got along well" with many of Hollywood's leading ladies and gentlemen, including Cary Grant.

Another example of sensationalist fiction I'm afraid. Hughes was one of the biggest womanisers in Holywood in the 30s. There is no evidence to suggest he was gay and no credible biography of him suggests that he was. Yet his supposed homosexuality is then used by a number of parasitic writers to 'prove' that his aquaintances Grant and Flynn were. Why else would they hang out with him at the top nighspots in Holywood ??

bluestone120
07-01-2011, 12:48 AM
Another example of sensationalist fiction I'm afraid. Hughes was one of the biggest womanisers in Holywood in the 30s. There is no evidence to suggest he was gay and no credible biography of him suggests that he was. Yet his supposed homosexuality is then used by a number of parasitic writers to 'prove' that his aquaintances Grant and Flynn were. Why else would they hang out with him at the top nighspots in Holywood ??

He definitely was a womanizer, no doubt about that. The funny thing is, I checked at least five different (and fairly reputable) sources before posting to make sure it wasn't a bogus fact. There are quite a number of bios of the man floating around that promote his alleged bisexuality to varying degrees.

Since reading your post, I searched again and came across this (undocumented) statement from a queue of book reviews: "the FBI report on Hughes never found evidence of homosexuality".

djd
07-01-2011, 12:59 AM
I wasn't having a dig at you pal - I just loathe how these things get repeated often enough that they suddenly take on the status of 'facts' in the popular consciousness! People may say, 'the womanising was just a cover for his homosexuality!' but of all the gay men and women I've know I've never met one who carried on with multiple members of the opposite sex in this way as 'cover'. Sure, I've know a number of gay men and women who have been married at some point in their lives before realising their mistake and coming out but that is not the same thing at all. At some point every handsome man seems to get claimed as gay...

bluestone120
07-01-2011, 01:04 AM
Nah, I didn't take it personally, I just hate repeating things that aren't true.

Guttersnipe
07-01-2011, 01:34 AM
In conjunction with this thread I recommend the documentaries The Celluloid Closet and Thou Shalt Not: Sex, Sin and Censorship in Pre-Code Hollywood. There's another documentary that does really good job exploring possible homosexual subtexts in classic Hollywood films as well as discussing the realities of the era and what it was like for closeted actors, but I cannot for the life of me remember the title.

Guttersnipe
07-01-2011, 01:48 AM
Regarding the "were they or weren't they" debate, I think it's useful to separate the assertions of unauthorized biographers who sold books by making salacious claims about people after the were dead and those that were contemporary to the time.

James Dean, for instance, probably gave studio big wigs heart attacks when stated about as bluntly as one could in the 50s that he was bisexual ("let's put it thins way, I'm not going to go through life with on hand tied behind my back"). But whether he was trying to tweak his nose at conformity or legitimately wanted to communicate his sexuality is hard to say.

After he died his roommate from New York did write a book saying they'd been romantically involved, but only after many years and in a revised edition . . .

Puzzicato
07-01-2011, 03:26 AM
1955's "The Big Combo." Two tough guy thugs, Fante (Lee Van Cleef) and Mingo (Earl Holliman) are together all the time and even though they are henchmen, their relationship with each other is very kind, almost tender, as Fante calls Mingo honey at one point.

Entirely off topic, but I have just discovered where Joss Whedon got the names for his tough guy thug twins in Serenity!

BinkieBaumont
07-01-2011, 03:58 AM
Tab Hunter was set up to date Natalie Wood in the late 1950's (He was actually dating Anthony Perkins) the joke at the time in certain Hollywood circles was 'Natalie Wood, but Tab Wouldn't'

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/51/51_images/1dreamtab&tony.jpg

Double date sounds like a good idea

scotrace
07-01-2011, 06:14 AM
Modern people tend to forget that it was very common at one time for same-sex roommates to share the same bed, with no sexual connotations whatsoever.

Absolutely. And same-sex friendships were very different prior to our time. Some biographers have tried to contort Lincoln's close friendship and common sleeping arrangements with Joshua Speed into evidence of Lincoln's homosexuality.

C-dot
07-01-2011, 07:10 AM
After he died his roommate from New York did write a book saying they'd been romantically involved, but only after many years and in a revised edition . . .

I read that book (http://www.amazon.ca/Surviving-James-Dean-William-Bast/dp/156980298X). There are a number of inaccuracies Bast makes with time that make it even harder to believe the majority of what he says!

bunnyb.gal
07-01-2011, 07:39 AM
What's even more sad about poor Ramon is what [expletive]s like Kenneth Anger have done to his memory by writing sensational rumours as fact. I can't repeat what he wrote here, but anyone who has read Hollywood Babylon will know what I'm referring to.

I read in Clara Bow: Runnin' Wild that Clara's best friend Tui Lorraine (who later became her stepmother) went "the lavender way," and was quite in love with Clara. Their friendship came to an acrimonious ending over her divorce from Clara's father. Watching Clara's films, its not hard to understand why Tui felt the way she did, even as a heterosexual! :)

I've been fascinated by Golden Era films ever since year dot, and unfortunately Kenneth Anger's trash-fest was one of my first reads on the subject and made a huge impact on me at the time. I've had to spend much of my adulthood educating myself out of the unsubstantiated rumours and out and out lies of that disgusting book! ("Runnin' Wild" is a good example of books I've read which are a good antidote.)

dhermann1
07-01-2011, 07:54 AM
Speaking of men in bed together, there's a hilarious tale, told by John Adams himself, of an incident when he and Ben Franklin went to New York to confer with British officials about possible peace talks. They shared a rather uncomfortable bed at an inn. Franklin insisted on keeping the windows wide open, while Adams wanted them closed. They eventually compromised, but I don't think Adams got a very good night's sleep.
There are also a great big pile of Laurel and Hardy movies that show them in bed together, with various disastrous things befalling them (mostly Ollie, actually).
One interesting Hollywood couple were Charles Laughton and Elsa Lanchester. He was definitely gay, and was known to check out the young male extras on any film he directed. She was raised in one of those old ultra-progressive British families that believed in free love. So she also had many and varied affairs, mostly (if not entirely) heterosexual. This did not keep them from having a devoted and loving relationship for many years.
Harold Nicolson and Vita Sackville-West, the British authors, were both gay. This is well documented in their son Nigel's excellent book, "Portrait of a Marriage". They did manage to produce two sons, but eventually both realized they were really more attracted to the same sex. They each had various affairs over the years, but remained totally committed to each other at the end of the day.

dhermann1
07-01-2011, 08:02 AM
I had to google this up a bit. Silent film director William Desmomd Taylor was found murdered in his apartment in 1922. The case was never solved. One could speculate that the LA police knew exactly what happened, but at the behest of the movie studio suppressed the evidence. One theory was that he was murdered by the mother of aspiring (and pretty untalented) starlet, Mary Miles Minter, who thought that he wanted to marry her and ruin her career. What Minter's mother didn't know was that he was gay. One of Tinseltown's most infamous cases.

Charlie74
07-01-2011, 09:48 AM
Connie Ford - the jilted wife in "A Summer Place" was a lesbian. I have a friend who knew Barbara Stanwyck personally and told the story that soemone once asked her if Rita Hayworth was a lesbian. Barbara's reply was that Rita "was too dumb to be a dyke". This told my friend that Barbara's advances were rejected

Guttersnipe
07-01-2011, 12:13 PM
I read that book (http://www.amazon.ca/Surviving-James-Dean-William-Bast/dp/156980298X). There are a number of inaccuracies Bast makes with time that make it even harder to believe the majority of what he says!

Yeah, in the original version Bast didn't explicitly say him and Dean were romantically involved, it wasn't until something like 10+ years later that he made that claim in a revised edition. Although, there have been rumors for years that Dean "did what he had to do" while living in New York as a struggling actor. Sal Mineo, who arguably portrayed Hollywood's overtly first gay teenage character (according to him), said that Dean was certainly familiar with the 1950s gay subculture. But again, the fact that Dean had gay friends in New York, and hung around with Hollywood stars like Rock Hudson, Tad Hunter and Nick Adams is really just "guilt" by association.

A lot of the rumors originated with Nick Adams, who was reliable only for being an unreliable source. He made certain claims about himself, Elvis, Dean, and others.

Mahagonny Bill
07-01-2011, 01:02 PM
Two tough guy thugs, Fante (Lee Van Cleef) and Mingo (Earl Holliman) are together all the time and even though they are henchmen, their relationship with each other is very kind, almost tender, as Fante calls Mingo honey at one point. They sleep in the same room and in one scene they are handed a box of money in a payoff, and Fante says, “The police will be looking for us in every closet in town.” It's really subtle, and arguably not concrete proof the two are gay, but just the fact that it's toyed with (the cops looking for them in closets) makes for an intricate weave in the storyline.
My favorite Fante & Mingo line is from the scene where they are complaining about the food they have had to eat while hiding out: "I'm sick of sitting around here eating sausages!" From anyone else it would be a throw away line, but from those two it has added subtext ;)

V.C. Brunswick
07-01-2011, 03:35 PM
The long running, hugely popular, uk show Morcombe and Wise , regularly featured them in the same bed with no hint of a gay theme. It's a shame in some ways that that sort of innocence has gone.

Similar scenes could also be seen in The Three Stooges and Laurel & Hardy comedies.

Gregg Axley
07-01-2011, 05:01 PM
You are correct sir...
Especially "Their First Mistake" where Oliver Hardy adopts a baby, only to see he and Stan will be taking care of it. Not only do they sleep in the bed together, but Stan unwittingly nurses the baby. I have a book on their entire career, and how the gags were set up (mentally) to show certain characteristics such as Stan's submissive attitude towards Ollie, etc. While this may be misconstrued as a homosexual thing between the two, considering the episode starts out as "Ollie spending too much time with Stan", it's merely an intimate relationship between two friends, as with their relationship off screen.
As for the Three Stooges, even by today's standards, the "branders" can't call Moe, Larry and Curley (and even Shemp) gay because 3 of them were brothers...Then again Curley does look good in a dress in Microphonies. :) Quiet Numbskulls I'm broadcasting....

Puzzicato
07-02-2011, 03:22 AM
Harold Nicolson and Vita Sackville-West, the British authors, were both gay. This is well documented in their son Nigel's excellent book, "Portrait of a Marriage". They did manage to produce two sons, but eventually both realized they were really more attracted to the same sex. They each had various affairs over the years, but remained totally committed to each other at the end of the day.

Some of the Bloomsbury Group and their associates were certainly pretty fluid in their sexuality. Virginia Woolf's sister Vanessa had a daughter by Duncan Grant, who mostly had male lovers (Lytton Strachey, John Maynard Keynes, David Garnett), and eventually Angelica Bell, their daughter, married David Garnett. There can't be many women who end up marrying their father's ex-boyfriends.

David V
07-02-2011, 08:33 AM
... At some point every handsome man seems to get claimed as gay...

Well I guess I'm safe from the rumor mill. :)

C-dot
07-02-2011, 08:44 AM
I've been fascinated by Golden Era films ever since year dot, and unfortunately Kenneth Anger's trash-fest was one of my first reads on the subject and made a huge impact on me at the time. I've had to spend much of my adulthood educating myself out of the unsubstantiated rumours and out and out lies of that disgusting book! ("Runnin' Wild" is a good example of books I've read which are a good antidote.)

David Stenn is a fantastic author. He also wrote Bombshell: The Life and Death of Jean Harlow, which is one of my favourite biographies. Compare his educated and thoroughly researched version of Paul Bern's death to Anger's - total scum!

Speaking of Paul Bern, there were many rumours during his lifetime that he was gay, since he was the platonic "girlfriend" of the screen's most gorgeous women. Knowing what we do now, his issues didn't seem to stem from his sexuality.


One interesting Hollywood couple were Charles Laughton and Elsa Lanchester. He was definitely gay, and was known to check out the young male extras on any film he directed. She was raised in one of those old ultra-progressive British families that believed in free love. So she also had many and varied affairs, mostly (if not entirely) heterosexual. This did not keep them from having a devoted and loving relationship for many years.

Reminds me somewhat of Gilbert Adrian and Janet Gaynor. He was openly gay (rumour has it that Janet was too), but the couple was married for 20 years until Adrian's death. They must have loved each other very much, though, to have retired to Brazil together!

scotrace
07-02-2011, 09:01 AM
I think it should be said clearly that this is not a thread for lifestyle judgements or sideways snark about what are ultimately the very private intimate lives of other people. We've seen no real problems so far (though some members may feel differently - I welcome comment via PM), but it seems a good idea to declare preference neutrality here. I would not want any of my gay friends to visit The Fedora Lounge to find what feels like a pile-on.

Harp
07-02-2011, 10:27 AM
Duncan Grant, who mostly had male lovers (Lytton Strachey, John Maynard Keynes, David Garnett)

Keynesian Cross.:sorry: Macro econ blackboard memories.....;)

Puzzicato
07-02-2011, 11:29 AM
Keynesian Cross.:sorry: Macro econ blackboard memories.....;)

JM Keynes sexuality certainly wasn't discussed in my Evolution of Economic Ideas class at school. I think at 18 I pretty much felt that economists didn't have sex. One lives and learns!

Amy Jeanne
07-03-2011, 08:21 AM
Lilyan Tashman was rumoured to be a lesbian (or at least bisexual):

http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Eric_B/LilyanTashman2057-0764b1.jpg

She was married to Edmund Lowe and it was said to be a "lavendar marriage." Unfortunately, she died in 1934 from abdominal cancer :(

LizzieMaine
07-03-2011, 01:54 PM
We can't forget two-thirds of the cast of the classic Broadway revue "Three's a Crowd." Clifton Webb made no secret of his inclinations over the course of his long career on the stage and in film -- and co-star Libby Holman seems to have been pretty much omnisexual. (The third member of the cast, Fred Allen, had a long and very conventional heterosexual marriage, and must've felt like the odd man out in that show.)

C-dot
07-03-2011, 02:31 PM
Clifton Webb lived with his mother Mabelle his whole life, and was never married. I didn't actually know he was gay though - A Google search will confirm everything lol
(OT: In the book Hollywood Haunted (http://www.amazon.com/Hollywood-Haunted-Ghostly-Tour-Filmland/dp/1883318122), there is a cool story about the ghosts of Clifton and his mother that were said to haunt their beloved house on Rexton Drive in Hollywood for years after their deaths.)

Another rumour I've read about was Joan Crawford, specifically that she came on to Marilyn Monroe. The title of the book I read it in escapes me. Now, I'm a Marilyn expert, but it isn't mentioned in the more prominent biographies. Has anyone else read this, or similar?

Lily Powers
07-03-2011, 03:52 PM
Allegedly, her psychiatrist, Dr. Ralph Greenson recorded sessions where Marilyn was encouraged to "free associate," and it was during one of these sessions that she mentions her encounter with Joan Crawford. Supposedly, the Greenspan wouldn't release the tapes, but an investigator with LA Dist. Atty's Office was allowed to hear them as part of the investigation into her manner of death, and that man took "verbatim" notes. After Dr. Greenspan died, the transcripted notes were released and published in the LA Times, with some skepticism (http://themoderatevoice.com/3571/marilyn-monroe-transcripts-dont-pass-the-confirmation-test/).

C-dot
07-03-2011, 04:02 PM
After Dr. Greenson died, the transcripted notes were released and published in the LA Times, with some skepticism (http://themoderatevoice.com/3571/marilyn-monroe-transcripts-dont-pass-the-confirmation-test/).

:offtopic: Thanks for this. I too question the "verbatim" notes. I tend to think someone would have gotten hold of the tapes and preserved them if they actually existed - that whole "evidence was destroyed because it contained explosive information" argument is a non-sequitur.

I'm not sure Joan Crawford was lesbian or bisexual. It may just be one of the many rumours that surrounded her life, like Mommie Dearest and the allegations that she worked as a prostitute in her early years.

The book I read it in claimed that the reason why Joan disliked Marilyn was because she had made a pass at her - which was not completed. There is a more logical explanation though: by 1953, Joan was out of her prime and had to re-invent herself to keep her career afloat, while Marilyn's was rising like fireworks - not to mention that she had all the male attention! When you want to stay Queen Bee, you never have anyone around who is younger and prettier than you. ;)

Tomasso
07-03-2011, 04:23 PM
Betsy Drake, Cary's 3rd wife, had an opinion (http://oldhollywood.tumblr.com/post/159960055/cary-grant-his-third-wife-actress-betsy-drake) on his sexual preferences.


There's been lots of speculation as to why Grant chose to improvise this scene.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCymsoQL49c&NR=1

C-dot
07-03-2011, 05:08 PM
Higham's biography of Howard Hughes refers to a relationship between Hughes and Cary Grant. Higham has been denounced as less than credible, though. My aunt loaned me Cary Grant: The Lonely Heart and said it was the definitive biography of him, but its been written by Higham too, so it will be interesting to see what it says.

Part of me thinks that the homosexuality rumours associated with Cary Grant, Clark Gable, and other male sex symbols were simply a dig (not my personal opinion - in those days, they were) at people who are elevated beyond us mere mortals. I came across this statement from snopes.com the other day:

"Nearly as great as our need to elevate certain common folk to the status of heroes is the need of others to tear them down - to show us that our heroes are possessed grievous flaws that make them unworthy of the praise and attention we lavish upon them."

djd
07-04-2011, 12:16 AM
Higham is a scumbag. His book on Flynn contained quotes from FBI files that Higham had altered to suit his own ends. What kind of a biographer does that? Each one of his books relies upon one of his other books to support it's fantasies. The best book on Grant is called Cary Grant - A Class Apart (I can't remember who wrote it but it's fairly recent). Everything Higham has produced is utter trash. Trust me on this :)

Tomasso
07-04-2011, 12:35 AM
The best book on Grant is called Cary Grant - A Class Apart That was also the title of a superb documentary by Robert Trachtenberg.

djd
07-04-2011, 12:52 AM
Looked it up - by Graham McCann

Tomasso
07-04-2011, 01:04 AM
quotes from FBI files Talk about lavender........:rolleyes:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Hoover_%26_Tolson.jpg/400px-Hoover_%26_Tolson.jpg

djd
07-04-2011, 01:11 AM
Indeed! Such a nice man too by all accounts...

Tomasso
07-04-2011, 01:22 AM
A while back there was a house bill (http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-01-01/news/17276813_1_fbi-abuses-fbi-informant-fbi-building) to remove his name from the FBI building. He may have been the most despicable person to ever hold power in Washington. And that's saying a lot............

Puzzicato
07-04-2011, 03:59 AM
:offtopic: Thanks for this. I too question the "verbatim" notes. I tend to think someone would have gotten hold of the tapes and preserved them if they actually existed - that whole "evidence was destroyed because it contained explosive information" argument is a non-sequitur.


I think that is a sensible thing to keep in mind under any circumstances. I work with a woman who claims to take excellent verbatim notes, and it is remarkable how they differ to the notes that I keep of meetings. People's memories play tricks on them and it doesn't take very long for those tricks to kick in, even when no malice is intended.



Part of me thinks that the homosexuality rumours associated with Cary Grant, Clark Gable, and other male sex symbols were simply a dig (not my personal opinion - in those days, they were) at people who are elevated beyond us mere mortals. I came across this statement from snopes.com the other day:

"Nearly as great as our need to elevate certain common folk to the status of heroes is the need of others to tear them down - to show us that our heroes are possessed grievous flaws that make them unworthy of the praise and attention we lavish upon them."

Also very true. Think about all the stars today (mostly men) who have these persistent rumours about them, with very little substantiation.

Tomasso
07-04-2011, 04:14 AM
People's memories play tricks on them and it doesn't take very long for those tricks to kick in, even when no malice is intended.I rue the day I picked up that first stick of Maryjane......:o

Gregg Axley
07-04-2011, 05:46 AM
What a pretty picture Tomasso! :)
Also note the fact they have their legs crossed towards each other, not away.
Just another body language myth IMHO.
It also says something when couples dress alike...these guys are dressed pretty close except for the tie. Just sayin....

C-dot
07-04-2011, 07:33 AM
Tomasso, that is a fab picture! I'm loving the shoes.

Farley Granger, who died this past March, was gay and had a very long relationship with Robert Calhoun. However, in 1955, Farley had a brief engagement to fellow actor Janice Rule. They did not marry, but remained friends.

He was interviewed in the 1995 documentary The Celluloid Closet (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112651/) (Watch it, its very good!)

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/LauraCdot/Miscellaneous%20Pictures/FarleyGranger4.jpg

Since he is my favourite leading man, I wrote to him in January of 2010 and was overjoyed to receive an autographed picture in response a few months later. It's one of my treasured possessions :)

djd
07-04-2011, 07:38 AM
That's cool! Tell you who I wrote to a few years back - Olivia de Havilland. Sent me a great signed pic of her with Mr Flynn. Lovely lady (not gay and rather off topic...)

bunnyb.gal
07-04-2011, 07:42 AM
David Stenn is a fantastic author. He also wrote Bombshell: The Life and Death of Jean Harlow, which is one of my favourite biographies. Compare his educated and thoroughly researched version of Paul Bern's death to Anger's - total scum!

Speaking of Paul Bern, there were many rumours during his lifetime that he was gay, since he was the platonic "girlfriend" of the screen's most gorgeous women. Knowing what we do now, his issues didn't seem to stem from his sexuality.





Just by coincidence there was a documentary on 2 nights ago called "Fabulous! The Story of Queer Cinema" which traced the roots of gay cinema back to a 1947 film by...Kenneth Anger! I knew he had some importance as a gay filmmaker (perhaps as a filmmaker period, I really know little about his career) but I have never understood the motives behind him penning such a malicious book as "Hollywood Babylon". Purely pecuniary? Any publicity is good publicity?

Anyhow, I sat through the documentary in question but there was very little fodder for a Golden Era film enthusiast. Interesting enough, though.

C-dot
07-04-2011, 08:09 AM
Purely pecuniary? Any publicity is good publicity?

You hit the nail on the head. The most widely circulated theory is that he penned Hollywood Babylon in retaliation against the Hollywood that had rejected him, and crushed his hopes of becoming a successful filmmaker. Watching his films, it isn't difficult to see why: Compare his short film Fireworks (1947) to the Academy Award winner of Best Picture for the same year, Elia Kazan's Gentleman's Agreement. Anger's graphic and frequently sadistic work had no place in Hollywood, and his aim with Hollywood Babylon was ostensibly to prove that it did.

Puzzicato
07-04-2011, 08:14 AM
Tomasso, that is a fab picture! I'm loving the shoes.

Farley Granger, who died this past March, was gay and had a very long relationship with Robert Calhoun. However, in 1955, Farley had a brief engagement to fellow actor Janice Rule. They did not marry, but remained friends.

He was interviewed in the 1995 documentary The Celluloid Closet (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112651/) (Watch it, its very good!)

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/LauraCdot/Miscellaneous%20Pictures/FarleyGranger4.jpg

Since he is my favourite leading man, I wrote to him in January of 2010 and was overjoyed to receive an autographed picture in response a few months later. It's one of my treasured possessions :)

He was so beautiful. Strangers on a Train is one of my favourite films, and it is mostly because of him.

bunnyb.gal
07-04-2011, 04:56 PM
You hit the nail on the head. The most widely circulated theory is that he penned Hollywood Babylon in retaliation against the Hollywood that had rejected him, and crushed his hopes of becoming a successful filmmaker. Watching his films, it isn't difficult to see why: Compare his short film Fireworks (1947) to the Academy Award winner of Best Picture for the same year, Elia Kazan's Gentleman's Agreement. Anger's graphic and frequently sadistic work had no place in Hollywood, and his aim with Hollywood Babylon was ostensibly to prove that it did.

It's available to rent so I probably should just so I don't die ignorant, although in the main "experimental" filmmakers leave me pretty cold. From your description, C-dot, it sounds like his problem was being born several decades too early - "graphic and frequently sadistic" would slot right in nowadays!

Do you know if any lawsuits were brought against him, by the way?

C-dot
07-04-2011, 06:25 PM
Do you know if any lawsuits were brought against him, by the way?

That I don't know! The people he slandered were all deceased at the time (pure coincidence, I'm sure ;)), so I'm guessing not. I'm definitely going to read up on that though.

Tomasso
07-05-2011, 11:57 AM
There has long been speculation that Laurence Oliver was a practiced fence hopper, which included dalliances with Danny Kaye and Henry Ainley. His family steadfastly denied the rumors until recently when his widow, Joan Plowright, when asked of their accuracy responded:

"If a man is touched by genius, he is not an ordinary person. He doesn't lead an ordinary life. He has extremes of behaviour which you understand and you just find a way not to be swept overboard by his demons. You kind of stand apart. You continue your own work and your absorption in the family. And those other things finally don't matter "




http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5k17VC2Eglg/SyNYI-RYCLI/AAAAAAAABn0/Mejy8zfKB7U/s400/50pelisantesdemorirEspartacoLaurenceOlivierTonyCur tis.jpg

dhermann1
07-05-2011, 01:02 PM
http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/LauraCdot/Miscellaneous%20Pictures/FarleyGranger4.jpg



OT: Is that Noel Neill (aka Lois Lane) with Farley and Roddy?
Back on topic: Danny Kaye, definitely. And again, not that there's anything wrong with it. Danny Kaye was one of my all time idols.

LizzieMaine
07-05-2011, 01:09 PM
I had heard that Danny Kaye was a cross-dresser in private life, but not that he was gay. Ed Wood, the notorious director, supposedly claimed that he and Kaye and Tony Curtis used to raid the wardrobe department at Universal when Curtis was under contract there, but Wood was a notorious embellisher of fact...

Kaye was married to his chief writer, Sylvia Fine, for a long time -- as much a business arrangement as a love match, the story goes, and they remained close after divorcing.

Tomasso
07-05-2011, 01:27 PM
OT: Is that Noel Neill (aka Lois Lane) with Farley and Roddy?Jane Powell.....but she kinda looks line Bette Davis in that shot.

Guttersnipe
07-05-2011, 01:43 PM
Another really interesting documentary on this topic is Silver Screen: Color Me Lavender (1998). It discusses not only the screen persona's of gay and lesbian actors, but the portrayal of gay characters/archetypes -- albeit covertly -- in classic Hollywood and analyzes the significance of certain types of characters/bits/archetypal relationships. We tend to thing people didn't know about "those sorts of things" in the past, but they really did . . .

Lily Powers
07-05-2011, 08:06 PM
It's available to rent so I probably should just so I don't die ignorant, although in the main "experimental" filmmakers leave me pretty cold. From your description, C-dot, it sounds like his problem was being born several decades too early - "graphic and frequently sadistic" would slot right in nowadays!

Do you know if any lawsuits were brought against him, by the way?

My bet is that any pending lawsuit was settled quietly, and out of court. While Anger's writings are despicable, there is quite probably one iota of truth on which he based his wild stories, and to fight it in open court would have been more detrimental to the subject of his rumor mongering than ignoring it.

Tomasso
07-05-2011, 09:22 PM
There was Liberace's libel suit against The Daily Mirror in the 50s.

One of their columnists wrote that Liberace was " the summit of sex—the pinnacle of masculine, feminine, and neuter. Everything that he, she, and it can ever want… a deadly, winking, sniggering, snuggling, chromium-plated, scent-impregnated, luminous, quivering, giggling, fruit-flavoured, mincing, ice-covered heap of mother love"............... Liberace won the case, receiving £8,000 in damages.

The jury said it was the fruit-flavoured bit that swung the verdict his way.

Edward
07-06-2011, 03:43 AM
The jury said it was the fruit-flavoured bit that swung the verdict his way.

Yes, "fruit" being a pejorative term for a gay person back in the day (and one which persisted right up until the Eighties, in my experience). Liberace, when asked for his reaction to the decision, famously said "I cried all the way to the bank". Of course, he had perjured himself to high heaven and had to spend the rest of his life in the closet. Mind you, that probably didn't seem such a idea in 1959 (although the original article was published in 1956, the case didn't hit trial until 59, for one reason and another): it would be another eight years before private sexual activity between two consenting men over the age of twenty-one was de-criminalised in England and Wales. Plenty of celebrities have taken libel actions, lying through their teeth about the "falsity" of the allegations made. Lord Archer was, of course, caught out on this many years later; one of his compatriots, Jonathan Aitken, was discovered at the time of the trial. Both served time for perjury. Many other celebrities (don't think I'm going to be suckered into naming them here!) have blatantly gotten away with it, including some major A-listers.

Speaking as an academic specialising in media law, it is certainly true that the nature of the media has changed over time in relation to public figures and their bad behaviour, whether they be actors, sports stars, socialites, politicians or even royalty. The sole difference between those types back in the day and now is that in this present age we know about their indiscretions as the media are prepared to print them. I have no objection to this state of affairs provided that any such publication is in the public interest. Of course, all too often it is simply a matter of feeding an appetite for salacious gossip about persons from all those categories whose existence is broadly inconsequential and who in a sane world would simply be ignored. There certainly are cases where it is wholly legitimate to limit the press and its freedom of expression where other, conflicting interests should take precedence, though I frankly have little sympathy for some cheating little bonker who whines because he is exposed as such, especially when the motivation to cover up the same these days is less often personal reputation and more preserving the economic value of the brand.

With respect to Anger, if all of his allegations concerned only persons who had died prior to publication, then no case in libel could be filed against him. In both the US and the UK (and many other states besides) the law is very clear that only living persons (which does include corporations) have the right to sue in defamation. This is, of course, why the most scandalous (or, depending upon point of view, honest) biographies of celebrities tend to come out after they have passed.

C-dot
07-06-2011, 08:26 AM
I had heard that Danny Kaye was a cross-dresser in private life, but not that he was gay. Ed Wood, the notorious director, supposedly claimed that he and Kaye and Tony Curtis used to raid the wardrobe department at Universal when Curtis was under contract there, but Wood was a notorious embellisher of fact...

I gather that Tony Curtis was a strictly hetero, meat-and-potatos kind of guy (Which is probably part of his gay appeal lol). That is interesting about Danny Kaye! I've always loved his voice.


With respect to Anger, if all of his allegations concerned only persons who had died prior to publication, then no case in libel could be filed against him. In both the US and the UK (and many other states besides) the law is very clear that only living persons (which does include corporations) have the right to sue in defamation. This is, of course, why the most scandalous (or, depending upon point of view, honest) biographies of celebrities tend to come out after they have passed.

The same is true in Canadian law. I went through Babylon and Babylon II, and every single person he "exposed" was deceased at the time of publication (and still are, I'm sure.) The only thing that came close was in Babylon II, where the cover picture was of an overweight Liz Taylor, but this in itself is not libelous.

Flat Foot Floey
07-06-2011, 09:57 AM
The german Silent movie "Anders als die anderen" (Different from the others ) form Richard Oswald with Conrad Veidt may be the first movie about this topic. Of course it was bannend and lost for many years. The remains of the movie can be seen on DVD now...with texts that explain the missing parts. I think it was on youtube too but can't find it now.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0009878/

Puzzicato
07-06-2011, 10:33 AM
There certainly are cases where it is wholly legitimate to limit the press and its freedom of expression where other, conflicting interests should take precedence, though I frankly have little sympathy for some cheating little bonker who whines because he is exposed as such, especially when the motivation to cover up the same these days is less often personal reputation and more preserving the economic value of the brand.


That's the thing isn't it - if some footballer gets an injunction because the publication would "hurt his family", well no, it's him not keeping it zipped that hurts his family, but I really don't think the public has a need to know. But if someone is an outspoken opponent of a particular lifestyle... letting their hypocrisy be known IS in the public interest.

I do think the studios covering up their stars lifestyles was all about the economic value of the brand though. Did they care at all about the individual reputations?

djd
07-06-2011, 10:37 AM
Very true!

I think perhaps now days that gay people in public life should come-out if at all possible , simply for the general acceptance that this helps build in society . Their choice of course :)

scotrace
07-06-2011, 12:40 PM
The german Silent movie "Anders als die anderen" (Different from the others ) form Richard Oswald with Conrad Veidt may be the first movie about this topic. Of course it was bannend and lost for many years. The remains of the movie can be seen on DVD now...with texts that explain the missing parts. I think it was on youtube too but can't find it now.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0009878/

Fascinating. Absolutely amazing. And of course, Veidt also starred in the early horror silent The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari. Later fled the Nazis with his jewish wife, and became well known for his portrayals of evil Nazis in films in America. Most notably, of course, as Major Strasser in Casablanca. Wow!

I found a clean 5 minute fragment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chvd4NnH_L8

Flat Foot Floey
07-06-2011, 04:36 PM
Yes. It seems to be copyrigh protected in my country now. I can't watch it. The story behind it is really amazing.

Another male couple that comes to my mind are Jean Cocteau and Jean Marais. they made some of the best surrealist movies together.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKiUTObvcvk

rue
07-10-2011, 05:37 PM
There is a grand story about Barbara Stanwyck, gathering blooms on both sides of the fence, poker games at Robert Taylor's house, John Wayne... ah well. Another time. ;-)



I know that story! lol

rue
07-10-2011, 05:40 PM
My grandfather was friends with a few big names in Hollywood and knew about a lot of the behind the scenes stuff. He knew about Rock Hudson and his boyfriend years before anyone else did and he also said that Betty White was gay. I'll have to ask my mom about the others......

Gregg Axley
07-10-2011, 07:38 PM
Betty White???
Oh Rue, I find that hard to believe.
Okay so she's in a second series where her roomates are all women.
Conicidence I say. :)
I'd really be surprised by that one though.

rue
07-10-2011, 08:07 PM
Betty White???
Oh Rue, I find that hard to believe.
Okay so she's in a second series where her roomates are all women.
Conicidence I say. :)
I'd really be surprised by that one though.

I only know what I was told [huh]

I called my mom and she said that my grandfather had told her, when she was a kid, that Cary Grant was bi-sexual and had a relationship with Randolph Scott, which I think is public knowledge now. He used to see them together at the Santa Anita race track at the Turf Club and it was supposedly very apparent they were a couple. She couldn't remember anything else right now.

C-dot
07-10-2011, 08:26 PM
I called my mom and she said that my grandfather had told her, when she was a kid, that Cary Grant was bi-sexual and had a relationship with Randolph Scott, which I think is public knowledge now. He used to see them together at the Santa Anita race track at the Turf Club and it was supposedly very apparent they were a couple.

I've read that too - Handsome couple :) I believe it more than the rumour about he and Howard Hughes.

Tomasso
07-11-2011, 01:51 AM
I only know what I was toldI got something to tell you, Honey...........

rue
07-11-2011, 06:07 AM
I got something to tell you, Honey...........

I'm sure you do darlin' :p

dhermann1
07-11-2011, 06:49 AM
Back to Danny Kaye. My in laws were good friends with him for many years (they met on a trans Pacific flight in the 60's). My mother in law told me that she was sure he was, tho my father in law wasn't sure. Apparently Sam asked Danny once if he was gay, and Danny said, "Why, I ought to kick your ass." But Marie says of course he was.
They had quite a number of funny Danny Kaye stories, which I'll share some day.
Anyhow, regardless of his orientation, Danny Kaye will always be one of my true idols.

Tomasso
07-11-2011, 02:22 PM
Years ago I was sitting at the bar in the Ginger Man restaurant in Beverly Hills where the owner, Carroll O'Connor (of Archie Bunker fame), happened to be tending bar. A friend came in and said that he had just seen Bob Hope walking down Rodeo Dr. with two young men who must have been his grandsons. A waiter, overhearing the conversation, laughed and said that his companions were not relations; that Hope was a known chicken hawk. Carroll nodded in agreement from behind the bar.

I found it difficult to believe as Hope's routines often contained some form of mild gay bashing in them. In fact a while after hearing this rumor Hope caused a furor in the gay community when on the Johnny Carson show he used the F word to describe the type of man that would wear the tie Ed McMahon was wearing. He even made a public service announcement for GLAAD to make amends. Hard to believe he was gay but then in resent years we've seen some of the most strident anti-gay rhetoric come out of the mouths of closeted gays.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie_L2ylmRSY

rue
07-11-2011, 03:10 PM
^ Now THAT would be shocking. He was known as a total womanizer.

AtomicEraTom
07-11-2011, 09:16 PM
That would be a shock about Bob Hope. I'm surprised O'Conner didn't just go "Awww, Geeeezzzzz Edithh!!!!!" lol

Tomasso
07-11-2011, 10:06 PM
He was known as a total womanizer.Those woman may have been beards or he may have been a Don Juan homosexual......who really knows. [huh] What makes me skeptical is that not a single man has outed him even after his passing.

MisterCairo
07-12-2011, 07:33 AM
OFF TOPIC:

I think there is a tendancy to "see" homosexuality where one wants to see it. The many rumours and allegations about celebrities, politicians and so on discussed throughout this thread evidence this.

I am reminded of a film critic, in Canada's Globe and Mail I think, talking about the Lord of the Rings films. His theory was that the scenes where the hobbits re-connect after their harrowing, life-threatening adventures, the ones including such behaviours as hugging, smiling, laughing, you know, joy at seeing one's friends alive after believing them to be dead, were in fact "homo-erotic".

A man remains a life-long bachelor - must be gay. A man shares a hotel room with another man - must be gay. A man dresses well - must be gay. Bob Hope is seen on the street with other men - must be gay.

Even the term (which I hate) "metro-sexual", has as its implicit meaning "a heterosexual male who exhibits good grooming, dress, manners, deportment and knowledge of cuisine, art and other similar attributes". 50 years ago, such a man would be called "a gentleman". I was called a metrosexual at a military mess dinner (by a civilian female colleague) because I knew the reason red wine pairs better with red meats!

Such thoughts and attitudes seem to me to suggest a pathology, not necessarily "it takes one to know one", but some underlying phobia or insecurity.

Wow, I need a drink.....

LizzieMaine
07-12-2011, 07:40 AM
I think it's the modern tendency to see everything with no shading whatsoever -- we've become a militantly binary culture. You're either A or B -- there's no room for any possible in-between space or other interpretations. If you're not a groping, beer-swilling fratboy slob, you're as gay as a day in May.


My favorite example of such exaggerated conclusion-jumping is an academic book on radio some years ago that went to some lengths to extract the hidden gay subtext in the relationship between Jack Benny and Rochester. "OH, MISTER BENNY!"

MisterCairo
07-12-2011, 08:02 AM
^^^

Ernie and Bert. The Odd Couple. Barney the Dinosaur. The novels of Jane Austen. I've read "academic" articles in addition to the ravings of homophobes on these and other characters and novels "representing" homosexuality. Pretty much everything written before the 60s apparently contains "subtext" because one couldn't be open about such things.

While Osar Wilde wrote about "feasting with panthers" in the late 19th century to reference his extra-marital escapades (many people aren't aware he married and had children), I am sure others hid their preferences in their works.

Just as I am sure the vast majority of others just wrote, no hidden meaning whatsoever!

bunnyb.gal
07-12-2011, 08:06 AM
^
The Teletubbies!

MisterCairo
07-12-2011, 08:13 AM
^^^
Yes, the list is endless!

OFF TOPIC UPDATE:

Yes, it was some tool from the Globe and Mail who instead of reviewing "LOTR: Return of the King" thought he'd appear to be "intellectual":

http://www.evalu8.org/staticpage?page=review&siteid=5778

Check out this incredible quote:

Back to
narrative strand one, where Sam saves Frodo from a giant spider, they get
captured and rescue themselves, all the time avoiding the "eye of
Sauron," a glowing device on two towers that functions as supernatural
radar. Set on its two giant legs of the towers, the "eye of Sauron"
looks unmistakably like a big, angry vagina in the sky. (No doubt there's a
good graduate-school thesis to be written about homo-erotic bonding and the
fear of the feminine in The Lord of the Rings).

But it gets better:

The real, barely suppressed love story seems to happen between the hobbits. There's an impassioned bedroom scene near the end where Frodo is recovering and Sam comes to visit him that actually evoked titters at an advance screening.


And hey, why stop at homoeroticism and misogyny, let's bring racism into the critique:


Unlike the sixties' generation that embraced Tolkien and wore "Frodo Lives" buttons, Jackson prefers to make war than love. One could also ask, fairly, why the enemies are so uniformly dark-skinned and deformed, and the heroes blue-eyed and fair, and why the roles of women and children are so tangential, but that may be an argument more with Tolkien than Jackson.


Wow! I wish I was making this up, but you couldn't.

scotrace
07-12-2011, 08:16 AM
I think it's the modern tendency to see everything with no shading whatsoever -- we've become a militantly binary culture. You're either A or B -- there's no room for any possible in-between space or other interpretations. If you're not a groping, beer-swilling fratboy slob, you're as gay as a day in May.

Very true. As I am sure is true of many of the men here, I try to dress decently. My home exhibits at least some effort at having been "decorated," I keep it tidy, do my own cooking, cleaning, laundry., etc. I watch "chick flicks," have rarely been to a sporting event (since High School), have never watched a football game on TV (or baseball, or basketball, or soccer, etc). I know what fork to use, how to iron my own shirts, know how to get wine stains out of the couch fabric, and can sew a button on.
I can also make my own car repairs, keep the lawn mowed, have built respectable furniture, built my own shed from scratch, recently replaced wind-damaged siding, and drink anyone I know under the table -- and am as straight as can be.
But I am certain there are plenty of people who make incorrect assumptions.
The irony is that we are supposed to be "enlightened" these days. We are supposed to be free of assigning traditional gender roles. Yet, the more "enlightened" we pretend to be, the more quickly we jump to these conclusions. It's as if society says "we must accept everyone for whatever they are. We no longer judge based on sexuality." Any other position or opinion is politically incorrect and "not helpful." And then begin assiduously assigning sexual identity based on appearances. Straight in this pile, gay in that pile. One or the other. "It's OK if you are gay or lesbian - but we have to mark who is and who isn't."

rue
07-12-2011, 08:28 AM
^ Scott you'll be getting marriage proposals by the thousands after that description ;)


It is true though, if a man isn't "manly" in a scratching their crotch while watching sports with a beer in hand, then they are usually thought of as "light in the loafers" by other men.

scotrace
07-12-2011, 08:34 AM
^ Scott you'll be getting marriage proposals by the thousands after that description ;)

Ah. Good. It'll be nice to see a reduction in the numbers... lol

rue
07-12-2011, 08:36 AM
:rofl: That was funny.

LizzieMaine
07-12-2011, 08:50 AM
^ Scott you'll be getting marriage proposals by the thousands after that description ;)


It is true though, if a man isn't "manly" in a scratching their crotch while watching sports with a beer in hand, then they are usually thought of as "light in the loafers" by other men.

Which, in turn, explains a lot of the Iconic Figures Of the Past who are assumed to be gay -- although Cary Grant was known to take in a ballgame or two, I doubt he was ever seen to scratch his crotch in public.

I wonder what these modern men would make of Leo Durocher, prominent baseball manager, coiner of the phrase "Nice Guys Finish Last," and one of the best-known sports figures of the 1940s. He was renowned for his huge collection of stylish suits, his silk shirts -- often changed twice a day -- his hundreds of pairs of shoes, and his ever-present cloud of cologne. By today's standards he'd be Highly Suspect, but in reality he was embarassingly straight -- probably the most offensively shameless womanizer in baseball. But he'd no sooner have scratched his crotch in public than he'd have run naked thru the streets of Brooklyn at high noon. (Actually, he might be *more* likely to do that.)

rue
07-12-2011, 09:57 AM
Which, in turn, explains a lot of the Iconic Figures Of the Past who are assumed to be gay -- although Cary Grant was known to take in a ballgame or two, I doubt he was ever seen to scratch his crotch in public.



No I certainly can not imagine Cary Grant doing that lol

C-dot
07-12-2011, 10:33 AM
Yes, it was some tool from the Globe and Mail who instead of reviewing "LOTR: Return of the King" thought he'd appear to be "intellectual"

Ah, Liam Lacey. I spill my tea on his column every Saturday on purpose.


It is true though, if a man isn't "manly" in a scratching their crotch while watching sports with a beer in hand, then they are usually thought of as "light in the loafers" by other men.

I prefer to think of those men as "homophobic" ;)

rue
07-12-2011, 10:46 AM
Yes I do believe that's the name for them ;)

Tomasso
07-12-2011, 11:05 AM
. He was renowned for his huge collection of stylish suits, his silk shirts -- often changed twice a day -- his hundreds of pairs of shoes, and his ever-present cloud of cologne. Sounds like Michael Jordan.

Richard Warren
07-12-2011, 01:28 PM
So it seems that the only person who can be disparaged here (a thread dealing with gays in Hollywood) as (allegedly, without any proof) being gay is J. Edgar Hoover (I somehow cannot remember any movies he was in), a person who undeniably gave his life to fighting concrete, manifest evil (gangsters, Nazis, and communists). A much wrongfully maligned man of heroic dimensions.

LizzieMaine
07-12-2011, 01:30 PM
By all serious accounts, Hoover was asexual. There's no documented evidence of him having any sort of physical affair with anyone.

(He may not have appeared in any feature pictures, but he did lend the Bureau's support to a number of films over the years, starting with G-Men in 1935.)

V.C. Brunswick
07-12-2011, 01:59 PM
Much of the speculation about J. Edgar Hoover's sexual orientation stemmed from his close friendship with Clyde Tolson who was the FBI's assistant director as neither married, both rode to and from work together and spent their vacations together which doesn't necessarily mean anything.

LizzieMaine
07-12-2011, 02:03 PM
The major latter-day speculation comes from a book written in 1993 by Andrew Summers, which cited a convicted perjurer as the sole source for the "J. Edgar In A Red Dress" story. So take that for what you will.

dr greg
07-12-2011, 03:21 PM
Homophobia has always puzzled me, because for every two guys doing whatever, there are approximately two women going 'spare' which surely ups the odds for your average guy out playing the field....and I do know quite a bit about this subject: at the age of 15 I was accused of being a fag by another student, and I'm just not, but I became the 'school homo' and was spat on, beaten by up to 6 guys at a time, humiliated in class, nearly raped by football players, insulted by teachers etc etc to the point where police had to monitor my parent's phone due to the death threats. It went on to the point where I left and never completed school. I went out to work in the adult world, left that town, and got on with my life and I have NEVER had anything to do with anyone from my school-years since, but here's the point of the story: in a bar one night a couple of years ago I ran into a guy who had been at the school but not really part of it all, and he told me the main ring-leader of the campaign had later in life become a frequenter of gay-bars and so forth, and when found out by his family, promptly hung himself...I'd have to admit to a certain inner sense of amusement at that after 40 years or so, maybe there is such a thing as karma...the moral of the story...beware those who doth protest too loudly......

Tomasso
07-12-2011, 03:52 PM
J. Edgar Hoover ...........a person who undeniably gave his life to fighting concrete, manifest evil (gangsters, Nazis, and communists).And the civil rights movement.............

rue
07-12-2011, 04:10 PM
Homophobia has always puzzled me, because for every two guys doing whatever, there are approximately two women going 'spare' which surely ups the odds for your average guy out playing the field....and I do know quite a bit about this subject: at the age of 15 I was accused of being a fag by another student, and I'm just not, but I became the 'school homo' and was spat on, beaten by up to 6 guys at a time, humiliated in class, nearly raped by football players, insulted by teachers etc etc to the point where police had to monitor my parent's phone due to the death threats. It went on to the point where I left and never completed school. I went out to work in the adult world, left that town, and got on with my life and I have NEVER had anything to do with anyone from my school-years since, but here's the point of the story: in a bar one night a couple of years ago I ran into a guy who had been at the school but not really part of it all, and he told me the main ring-leader of the campaign had later in life become a frequenter of gay-bars and so forth, and when found out by his family, promptly hung himself...I'd have to admit to a certain inner sense of amusement at that after 40 years or so, maybe there is such a thing as karma...the moral of the story...beware those who doth protest too loudly......


I'm so sorry you had to go through that Dr. Greg. My son was a victim of horrible bullying and it's enough to rip your heart out as a parent. It sounds like you've moved on though and I'm glad :)

Tomasso
07-12-2011, 05:02 PM
I had a football teammate in high school who sprouted an erection in the locker room. He transferred schools pretty soon after as I recall. Kids can be cruel, especially in an all male environment.

Flat Foot Floey
07-12-2011, 05:15 PM
Oh my. This is a really bad story. I also don't get it. Why do they hate gay men so much? It looks like theywould fear something. So turn gay too?
That's just stupid.

Gregg Axley
07-12-2011, 05:25 PM
Who could Hoover trust other than his closest advisors?
As Richard stated, he prosecuted the vile scum of society, all of which probably wanted him dead because he was cutting into thier profits/lifestyle.
I've worked with workaholics, and maybe he was one.
Everything revolves around work, everything...because these people don't know how to unwind.
I was one years ago, but thankfully I took another position and settled down.
Scott, I wash my own clothes, iron them, even mix my own starch.
I kept my house neat before I got married, my cars, my clothes, everything was neat.
Was I or am I gay? No, not at all.
I agree that many feel if you aren't womanizing, or cussing with the guys, you're gay.
Not true...
Edited by me after reading your story Dr Greg.
I am very sorry to hear that, people in general can be cruel especially with gossip. Rarely does gossip have 5% of truth, if that much!

LizzieMaine
07-12-2011, 06:44 PM
And the civil rights movement.............

Hoover was a man of many contradictions -- his surveillance and attempted blackmail of 60s-era civil rights activists is well documented. And yet twenty years earlier, he had been the highest-ranking government official to speak out against the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW2, denouncing the idea that they were disloyal as ridiculous, and condemning the camps as a wholesale violation of constitutional rights. Sometimes historical figures are too complex for the molds we want to fit them into.

Which, I think, fits right in with what was said earlier about how modern culture wants everything and everyone to be either A or B, gay or straight, hero or devil, everything must be reduced to the binary or modern culture can't process it.

Tomasso
07-12-2011, 07:36 PM
he had been the highest-ranking government official to speak out against the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW2.....Washington officials will sometimes make bold statements in support of an issue while behind the scenes they'll sit on their hands, or in some cases even work against their publicly stated position. I'm not saying that's what happened there but with Hoover you never know. After all, he publicly supported all eight of the presidents he served under while at the same time investigating them in an effort to uncover any bit of dirt which he could use as leverage to maintain and gain power. He was very effective at it too; nearly a half century in power. In some ways very impressive but not really the type of conduct expected from the nations top law enforcement officer.

AtomicEraTom
07-12-2011, 09:36 PM
I am terribly sorry that you had to go through this.

I don't understand homophobia. I don't care what gays do behind closed doors, that's their business. Don't give a rat's patoot what they're doing. It seems that every guy who keeps a neat house and knows how to color-coordinate is put into that category. I have before, and I'm certainly not gay. I see it's happened to plenty of loungers here, as well. I think it's an excuse for people to not take care of themselves and their environment. 'Doing so is "gay"'.


Homophobia has always puzzled me, because for every two guys doing whatever, there are approximately two women going 'spare' which surely ups the odds for your average guy out playing the field....and I do know quite a bit about this subject: at the age of 15 I was accused of being a fag by another student, and I'm just not, but I became the 'school homo' and was spat on, beaten by up to 6 guys at a time, humiliated in class, nearly raped by football players, insulted by teachers etc etc to the point where police had to monitor my parent's phone due to the death threats. It went on to the point where I left and never completed school. I went out to work in the adult world, left that town, and got on with my life and I have NEVER had anything to do with anyone from my school-years since, but here's the point of the story: in a bar one night a couple of years ago I ran into a guy who had been at the school but not really part of it all, and he told me the main ring-leader of the campaign had later in life become a frequenter of gay-bars and so forth, and when found out by his family, promptly hung himself...I'd have to admit to a certain inner sense of amusement at that after 40 years or so, maybe there is such a thing as karma...the moral of the story...beware those who doth protest too loudly......

V.C. Brunswick
07-15-2011, 12:59 PM
Since J. Edgar Hoover's been discussed at length here guess what's coming to theatres soon? With Leonardo di Caprio as the allegedly cross-dressing crimefighter.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1616195/

rue
07-15-2011, 01:34 PM
I would never have thought of using Leo, but then again I always picture Hoover in old age.

MisterCairo
07-15-2011, 02:21 PM
^^^

This is how I picture J. Edgar these days:

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3261499392/tt1152836

Gregg Axley
07-15-2011, 06:57 PM
Dicaprio? Not sure about that one. I mean, he was Howard Hughes. LOL

LizzieMaine
07-15-2011, 07:16 PM
Actually, I can see that. But who's going to play Hoover as an adult?

rue
07-15-2011, 07:18 PM
Do you think they'll just use make-up?

Tomasso
07-15-2011, 10:37 PM
I'm dying to see Naomi Watts do Helen Gandy.....wait....that didn't sound right.......

Gregg Axley
07-16-2011, 05:53 AM
I've suddenly become interested in the movie! LOL
Although that could also mean to get rid of her I suppose.
This might be a good movie because Eastwood is a great director IMHO.
I'll have to research the writer to see what else they did and how successful it was.

Story
12-27-2011, 04:40 PM
Betty White was gay.

I suspect the only way a woman would have been bedded by Betty White back in the day was if she happened to be caught up in White's flying tackle of whatever man's arm she was on at the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAv0dD44Zo8

Context.
http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/ss-100506-betty-white-02.grid-5x2.jpg

Relevant citation : Well here is one of the funnier performances by her where she tries to explain to her family that her granddaughter is a lesbian. She proclaims, “You know if I could go back in time, I would les it up 24 hours. Believe me…one thing I would not miss, balls! Terrible little things.”

http://topcultured.com/betty-white-wants-to-be-a-lesbian/

rue
12-27-2011, 04:46 PM
I only know what I was told Story :p

Story
12-27-2011, 04:48 PM
I only know what I was told Story :p

Shhhh... I'm still picturing a couple flying tackled by Betty White.

nb: an attractive couple, obviously.

rue
12-27-2011, 04:52 PM
Shhhh... I'm still picturing a couple flying tackled by Betty White.

nb: an attractive couple, obviously.

lol

Story
12-27-2011, 04:53 PM
lol

nttawwt.

Stanley Doble
01-31-2012, 12:11 PM
Reporter/humorist H. Allen Smith worked in Hollywood for a time in the forties after moving from New York. He said that in Hollywood you hadn't arrived until you were making $2000 a week and rumors went around that you were a swish. You were then permitted to wear your overcoat over your shoulders like a cape.lol

Doctor Strange
01-31-2012, 12:41 PM
This article should probably be referenced in this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/fashion/scotty-bowers-and-his-sexual-tell-all-of-old-hollywood.html

C-dot
02-03-2012, 10:18 AM
This article should probably be referenced in this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/fashion/scotty-bowers-and-his-sexual-tell-all-of-old-hollywood.html

“I’ve kept silent all these years because I didn’t want to hurt any of these people .... I finally said yes because I’m not getting any younger and all of my famous tricks are dead by now. The truth can’t hurt them anymore.”

He means, of course, that he cannot be sued for libel anymore. I wonder if he knows David Bret?

Mrs Chaddsley_Corbett
02-03-2012, 10:52 AM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/01/29/fashion/29SCOTTY/29SCOTTY-popup.jpg

He was rather dashing himself

Story
02-04-2012, 02:39 PM
This article should probably be referenced in this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/fashion/scotty-bowers-and-his-sexual-tell-all-of-old-hollywood.htmlCross referenced for maximum entertainment value (http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?61489-Malta-s-oldest-working-prostitute-turns-100&p=1394567&viewfull=1#post1394567)

Mrs Chaddsley_Corbett
02-06-2012, 08:54 AM
Paul Newman asking Jimmy Dean for a quick snog


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1sLlcarbu4

fortworthgal
02-06-2012, 03:23 PM
I read quite a lot of "old Hollywood" bios and stories. It is really shocking how many celebrities back in those days weren't really who we all grew up thinking they were. Also very sad that it was considered "necessary" to conceal their true preferences.

The studios were masters at covering up everything from sexual preferences to drug use to car accidents and illegitimate children. I'm convinced if Lindsay Lohan had lived in the 1930s, she would have been a huge star and nobody would ever have known about her escapades.