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Brevetti
10-16-2011, 11:58 AM
In recent years, styles of hats have once again started to become popular, showing up in popular culture, and on the heads of fashion models. Even where I live, I see hipster-type people wearing flat caps or fedoras, but mostly the extremely short-brimmed trilbies. However, as it has been said before, this new bastion of hat-wearers don them for the look alone, and do not follow the stated hat etiquette of the Golden Era. It irritates me immensely to see these cads wearing their hats in restaurants, the homes of others, and churches, where they should be promptly removed. I have been a hat wearer for almost a year now, and pay careful attention to these rules, always removing my cap in the above situations, as well as when introducing myself to a lady.

While I am very happy to see some styles of the past seeping back into the modern world, it does come with a cost. So, Fedora Lounge, what do you think? Would you rather see men's hats make a comeback at the price of proper etiquette being ignored, or have them stay dormant?

I apologize if this question has been asked before, but my searches have brought up no similar threads, so I went ahead and started one myself.

Dubya
10-16-2011, 12:04 PM
Hello mate, and welcome! :rapture:

This thread sort of answers a few questions.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?894-All-You-Need-to-Know-About-Hat-Etiquette&highlight=hat+ettiquette

Brevetti
10-16-2011, 12:10 PM
Thank you, Dubya. I'll take a look at that.

monbla256
10-16-2011, 12:49 PM
In recent years, styles of hats have once again started to become popular, showing up in popular culture, and on the heads of fashion models. Even where I live, I see hipster-type people wearing flat caps or fedoras, but mostly the extremely short-brimmed trilbies. However, as it has been said before, this new bastion of hat-wearers don them for the look alone, and do not follow the stated hat etiquette of the Golden Era. It irritates me immensely to see these cads wearing their hats in restaurants, the homes of others, and churches, where they should be promptly removed. I have been a hat wearer for almost a year now, and pay careful attention to these rules, always removing my cap in the above situations, as well as when introducing myself to a lady.

While I am very happy to see some styles of the past seeping back into the modern world, it does come with a cost. So, Fedora Lounge, what do you think? Would you rather see men's hats make a comeback at the price of proper etiquette being ignored, or have them stay dormant?

I apologize if this question has been asked before, but my searches have brought up no similar threads, so I went ahead and started one myself.

As was mentioned above, this topic has been gone into in quite some detail here before. I would have to agree that much has been lost in this area, but it was not just ettiqette in hat wearing but the TOTAL concept of it of which hat wearing was just a PART of the whole. If you can get the 21st centuey society to turn back the pages to a previous period, I congratulate you but 'fraid that's a MAJOR up hill battle. Cotinue as you are doing and enjoy yourself and the good parts of this century :)

tonyb
10-16-2011, 01:08 PM
As monbla said, Brevetti, this matter has been chewed over at length. But that certainly doesn't mean you can't bring it up again. Nor does it mean that all there is to say has already been said, even if it does seem that way at times.


Me, I sometimes have to remind myself that the world will never be 100 percent to my satisfaction (for which the world can be thankful) and that things change, sometimes in ways I might wish they didn't. This isn't to say that a person therefore shouldn't bemoan whatever losses he or she perceives in those changes, or that he or she acquiesce in matters he or she rather wouldn't. But in the case of something like the restoration of "hat etiquette," well, I fear that would be a losing battle.

Pompidou
10-16-2011, 01:27 PM
I imagine the reason for etiquette is to make all parties in a get-together comfortable. It's fine if they change, so long as everyone is comfortable. Etiquette hasn't disappeared. It's just different. People in the 30s followed 1930s rules. People in 2011 follow 2011 rules. If etiquette is doing as the Romans do when in Rome, as I think it was, wouldn't it be us flaunting the rules of etiquette? We might like the rules of a past era better, but they're just that - rules of a past era. 2011 hat wearers have 2011 rules of hat etiquette. If moccasins become popular, we won't be obligated to follow Native American customs just for wearing them. I think we should separate the clothes from their origins. I'm wearing an 1895 pocket watch. I'm not observing 1895 customs because of it. I'm not sure why hats are so tied to the past - more-so than any other piece of clothing celebrated here.

jlee562
10-16-2011, 01:43 PM
i imagine the reason for etiquette is to make all parties in a get-together comfortable. It's fine if they change, so long as everyone is comfortable. Etiquette hasn't disappeared. It's just different. People in the 30s followed 1930s rules. People in 2011 follow 2011 rules. If etiquette is doing as the romans do when in rome, as i think it was, wouldn't it be us flaunting the rules of etiquette? We might like the rules of a past era better, but they're just that - rules of a past era. 2011 hat wearers have 2011 rules of hat etiquette. If moccasins become popular, we won't be obligated to follow native american customs just for wearing them. I think we should separate the clothes from their origins. I'm wearing an 1895 pocket watch. I'm not observing 1895 customs because of it. I'm not sure why hats are so tied to the past - more-so than any other piece of clothing celebrated here.


qft!

O2BSwank
10-16-2011, 11:43 PM
If hats seem old fashioned as an item of clothing is it because they are anachronistic? Are there no valid reasons for wearing them? Well the sun still shines, and it's still hot and it still burns. The widespread use and acceptance of baseball hats seems to indicate a valid purpose in covering one's head. Look at any cowboy. He certainly doesn't think his hat is an anachronism. Notice how many law enforcement agencies have gone back to the use of the campaign hat. Perhaps current hat wearers will set their own course.

scottyrocks
10-17-2011, 03:32 AM
Despite all that, the overwhelming majority of men do not wear hats. There may a resurgence of sorts, but they will never come back the way they used to be worn.

randooch
10-17-2011, 05:49 AM
qft!

Not sure what qft means (quite friggin' true?), but Pompidou makes some valid points.

Sam Craig
10-17-2011, 06:09 AM
The reality is that we live in a quite different world from the one in which men habitually wore suits, ties, dress shoes and hats and acted accordingly.
Waiting rooms ALWAYS had places that were overseen where you could leave your hat and top coat when I was a kid. ALWAYS.
Same way with restaurants.
Now you are lucky if you even get a waiting room and certainly don't expect it to be maintained with any attempt to protect your belongings. Same way with restaurants.
So, unless you are part of that fabled 1 percent we keep hearing about, you'd better take your hat and coat to the table, which means, since most restaurants today cram as many cattle, oops, I mean customers, to the trough at one time as they can, that you aren't going to have room there, either.
Many hat wearers have begun just leaving their hats on, and then people pick THAT to be offended by.
In the mean time their screamin' kids bellow through the entire process, Mom is packing on the makeup at the table and she'd be smoking there, too, if it wasn't a capital offense.
Face it.
Times have changed.

Or is it just me?
Sam

Marc Chevalier
10-17-2011, 08:30 AM
Not sure what qft means (quite friggin' true?), but Pompidou makes some valid points.


It means "Quoted for truth". Really.

scottyrocks
10-17-2011, 09:05 AM
Times have changed.

Or is it just me?
Sam

It's not just you, at least around here.

fmw
10-17-2011, 10:29 AM
He does but there are still plenty of us that really hate to see people wearing hats when they eat. I'm one of them. I may be an old lizard but I don't date back to 1895.

EggHead
10-17-2011, 03:00 PM
Coffee shops don't have hat hooks - I leave mine on.

Marc Chevalier
10-17-2011, 03:11 PM
If you're ever in Los Angeles, come have breakfast at "Little Dom's". (Try the wild boar bacon.) Plenty of hat and coat hooks, as the photos show:


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/crosby_square/Doms0.jpg


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/crosby_square/Doms1.jpg


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/crosby_square/Doms2.jpg

Oldsarge
10-17-2011, 03:59 PM
Man, where is Little Dom's? Up near USC? Near Miracle Mile? I rarely get to that side of The Basin but I'd make the trip just to eat there. I want to be seen in there with my Fed IV (when I get it) hanging on a hook!

EggHead
10-17-2011, 04:04 PM
Same for Tadich Grill in San Francisco - plenty of hat hooks.

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=tadich+grill+pictures&fb=1&gl=us&hq=tadich+grill+pictures&cid=7707263299283615717&ei=YbScTtaBFMOJiAKq2ZHdCQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=photo-link&cd=1&resnum=4&ved=0CEkQnwIoADAD

jlee562
10-17-2011, 04:07 PM
Coffee shops don't have hat hooks - I leave mine on.

Manor Coffee Shop on West Portal has hooks, whenever I'm in there, my hat is on the hook!

I still have not been to Tadich Grill, shame on me, I could use a good hangtown fry.

RBH
10-17-2011, 04:56 PM
The reality is that we live in a quite different world from the one in which men habitually wore suits, ties, dress shoes and hats and acted accordingly.
Waiting rooms ALWAYS had places that were overseen where you could leave your hat and top coat when I was a kid. ALWAYS.
Same way with restaurants.
Now you are lucky if you even get a waiting room and certainly don't expect it to be maintained with any attempt to protect your belongings. Same way with restaurants.
So, unless you are part of that fabled 1 percent we keep hearing about, you'd better take your hat and coat to the table, which means, since most restaurants today cram as many cattle, oops, I mean customers, to the trough at one time as they can, that you aren't going to have room there, either.
Many hat wearers have begun just leaving their hats on, and then people pick THAT to be offended by.
In the mean time their screamin' kids bellow through the entire process, Mom is packing on the makeup at the table and she'd be smoking there, too, if it wasn't a capital offense.
Face it.
Times have changed.

Or is it just me?
Sam

Well said.

Marc Chevalier
10-17-2011, 05:08 PM
Man, where is Little Dom's? Up near USC? Near Miracle Mile? I rarely get to that side of The Basin but I'd make the trip just to eat there. I want to be seen in there with my Fed IV (when I get it) hanging on a hook!


It's in Los Feliz, near East Hollywood. The northeast corner of Hillhurst Ave. and Avocado St., one block south of Los Feliz Blvd.

Marc Chevalier
10-17-2011, 05:09 PM
Same for Tadich Grill in San Francisco - plenty of hat hooks.

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=tadich+grill+pictures&fb=1&gl=us&hq=tadich+grill+pictures&cid=7707263299283615717&ei=YbScTtaBFMOJiAKq2ZHdCQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=photo-link&cd=1&resnum=4&ved=0CEkQnwIoADAD


Thanks very much for the heads-up! I've got to go there.


Watch a new thread pop up. Call it: Restaurants/Cafes/Diners/Bars Where You Can Still Hang Up Your Hat.

Oldsarge
10-17-2011, 06:24 PM
Thanx, Marc. Perhaps Little Dom's would make a good Event site come spring time. We could take and post a picture of the restaurant with most (or all!) of the hat hooks filled.

Haversack
10-17-2011, 06:43 PM
Tadich also has hooks under the bar for ladies purses.

Le Central on Bush has a hat/coat rack at both the front and the back of the bar room.

The new Austrian place on Polk, Leopold's, has plenty of hat hooks on the walls and booth ends.

The door staff at Bix always offer to take your hat and coat.

Pompidou
10-17-2011, 06:59 PM
The casinos in CT have dedicated and attended coat, and I presume, hat storage. I trust them with my coat, but I wear my hat because I don't trust anyone that much. I can buy another identical coat any time. My hat is one of a kind.

Sam Craig
10-18-2011, 06:18 AM
It was in the '70s that the change came.
There was a time when, even if you did not have a hat and coat check at a restaurant, you at least had the hat and coat hooks near the cashier and he or she watched over them.
I remember in the '70s when you began to have computerization of restaurant registers and there was less human oversight. The signs began to go up, stating that the restaurant took no responsibility for loss.
There are restaruants, even in my small, rural community, where I still remove my hat ... at the table ... and either dedicate an extra chair, ask for an extra chair, or even place my hat UNDER my chair.
However, when I am out with others and they pick a cookie-cutter, chain restaurant ... I won't name names, but you have them all over the U.S. ... that shove people in so closely that you can't force in a space for a hat to be laid, I refuse to feel I have commited a faux pas for leaving my lid on.
In professional establishments, such as doctor's office, where you once ... again ... had a cashier who took the trouble to over see the safety of a patron's possessions, you are also on your own today.
I simply keep my hat and coat with me and even take it into the inner office, where I place them on a chair.
I defy a doctor ... or any other professional ... who will not keep an orderly waiting room to say anything about me bringing my possessions with me when he will not make sure they are safe.
After all, I guarantee he or she is making a lot more than I am.

Sam

HeyMoe
10-18-2011, 09:47 AM
I had to go to a doctor's appointment with my wife last week and I was wearing my Knox. I left the hat on in the hallyways and lobby as it is my understanding that this is OK. As we got onto the elevator an elderly woman was wheeled on with a very young aide. I immediatly removed my hat (was in the process anyway) and stood quietly in the back of the elevator. When we reached the woman's floor, she turned to me and said "Thank you young man".

My wife looked at me like "Huh?"

The only time I have ever kept anything on my head while eating what my helmet in the Army. I hated every moment of it. In a resturant, if a chair is not available for me to put my fedora on, I will hold it on my knee. I recently had a horrible experiance at a local resturant. We had reservations but were seated an hour and ten minutes late. We then waited for half an hour for the waiter and the food wasn't all that great. Of course I had to keep my hat and PeaCoat with me, the coat on my chair and my lid on my knee. As we were leaving the hostess, whom was standing with the owner, asked how everything was. I told her it was subpar, but knowing it was a very busy holiday weekend I wouldn't hold that against them. I would, however, not return to the resturant as they had no place for me to check my hat or coat and I was forced to keep both of them with me, and we were not given the booth or four chair table we had requested (by the time we were seated, half of the resturant was empty) so I had nowhere to place my hat.

Both the hostess and owner were shocked and my wife was trying desperatly not to laugh.

P.S. I have been known to not play well with others.......

monbla256
10-18-2011, 10:32 AM
It was in the '70s that the change came.
There was a time when, even if you did not have a hat and coat check at a restaurant, you at least had the hat and coat hooks near the cashier and he or she watched over them.
I remember in the '70s when you began to have computerization of restaurant registers and there was less human oversight. The signs began to go up, stating that the restaurant took no responsibility for loss.
There are restaruants, even in my small, rural community, where I still remove my hat ... at the table ... and either dedicate an extra chair, ask for an extra chair, or even place my hat UNDER my chair.
However, when I am out with others and they pick a cookie-cutter, chain restaurant ... I won't name names, but you have them all over the U.S. ... that shove people in so closely that you can't force in a space for a hat to be laid, I refuse to feel I have commited a faux pas for leaving my lid on.
In professional establishments, such as doctor's office, where you once ... again ... had a cashier who took the trouble to over see the safety of a patron's possessions, you are also on your own today.
I simply keep my hat and coat with me and even take it into the inner office, where I place them on a chair.
I defy a doctor ... or any other professional ... who will not keep an orderly waiting room to say anything about me bringing my possessions with me when he will not make sure they are safe.
After all, I guarantee he or she is making a lot more than I am.

Sam

I would have to agree with your time line for the change Sam. When growing up here in Ft. Worth in the 50s/60s folks would leave their hats on in a cafe at lunch but when you were having dinner there you'd see the men with their hats off and hung on whatever hooks available which were usually at or near the front door. And though I was brought up to remove my hat at the table as you were, I too leave mine on at most of the chain restaraunts for the same reason. As William Zimmerman said "...the times they are a-changin' " :)

MisterGrey
10-18-2011, 10:47 AM
I have a self imposed rule about hats when it comes to dining. Small cafes, coffee shops, fast food joints, and the like, I won't feel bad about keeping my hat on. Anyplace else, space permitting, I'll take it off, though, even if it is just a casual dining place; I was raised with the "hats off indoors" rule and it wasn't until I saw photos of men in the GE wearing their hats in more casual environments that I even felt comfortable leaving them on there.
If a place looks crowded from outdoors, though, and it isn't raining, I'll just stash the lid in the car.

I also leave a hat on in the supermarket or in any store I go into, figuring that they're the natural descendants of outdoor marketplaces where a hat would have been acceptable anyway (I believe I came to that decision after asking about it several years ago here on the lounge). Though I'll still take it off when speaking to a woman.

Undertow
10-18-2011, 12:56 PM
Pompidou, you raise an interesting point - we should be more flexible in how we approach etiquette.

Hats, however, are about as old as time and it was not uncommon to doff one's head covering; whether the knight lifted his visor to the maiden, or the soldier keeps his helmet on specifically because he is at arms (as opposed to removing his cover, as would be customary).

Removing one's head covering is a sign of respect. Certainly, times have changed and perhaps we should not necessarily hold ourselves to the same standards as our forefathers. Yet, why hold any routines? Why not change all aspects of life entirely at the whim of progress? Why do we bother to wave to one another and say hello? Why do we still nod our heads to say, "Yes," and shake our heads to say, "No"? Etc.

I understand your point - there were the old ways, and now there are the new ways. I believe it's a personal choice to hold principles, no matter how antiquated they may seem. In any case, I'll take a note from you - I should be a bit more open-minded before cursing someone under my breath for not taking off their hat. ;)

jlee562
10-18-2011, 01:11 PM
Pompidou, you raise an interesting point - we should be more flexible in how we approach etiquette.

Hats, however, are about as old as time and it was not uncommon to doff one's head covering; whether the knight lifted his visor to the maiden, or the soldier keeps his helmet on specifically because he is at arms (as opposed to removing his cover, as would be customary).

Removing one's head covering is a sign of respect. Certainly, times have changed and perhaps we should not necessarily hold ourselves to the same standards as our forefathers. Yet, why hold any routines? Why not change all aspects of life entirely at the whim of progress? Why do we bother to wave to one another and say hello? Why do we still nod our heads to say, "Yes," and shake our heads to say, "No"? Etc.

I understand your point - there were the old ways, and now there are the new ways. I believe it's a personal choice to hold principles, no matter how antiquated they may seem. In any case, I'll take a note from you - I should be a bit more open-minded before cursing someone under my breath for not taking off their hat. ;)

The thing is, etiquette is norms based. Being a social scientist (or a budding one at least), I could go into some long winded diatribe about the life and death of social norms, but suffice it to say that these social rules evolve and change with the times. At such a point, when the majority no longer feels it is rude to say, keep one's hat on in an elevator if a woman comes on, then the norm is already broken. And if the norm is broken the societal context of rudeness is gone too which no longer means that the action of keeping one's hat on is disrespectful, because the target of such action will not perceive it to be rude or disrespectful. Point being, the reason I would argue most of "Golden Era" hat etiquette is antiquated and superfluous to 2011 society is because the population is by and large not aware of such rules and consequently are no longer offended when such rules are broken. Waving and saying hello, nodding and shaking, etc are still conceptions held by the population at large. Those norms have not evaporated as has hat etiquette.

Which is of course not to say that one should not break their own personal rules if they feel uncomfortable doing so. For myself, I almost always remove my hat in a restaurant, the exception would be if I simply did not feel comfortable placing my hat under my seat, or if I'm wearing a stingy brim and I'm out with friends of my own age (who know little if anything of hat etiquette as such).

facade
10-18-2011, 01:55 PM
The thing is, etiquette is norms based. Being a social scientist (or a budding one at least), I could go into some long winded diatribe about the life and death of social norms, but suffice it to say that these social rules evolve and change with the times. At such a point, when the majority no longer feels it is rude to say, keep one's hat on in an elevator if a woman comes on, then the norm is already broken. And if the norm is broken the societal context of rudeness is gone too which no longer means that the action of keeping one's hat on is disrespectful, because the target of such action will not perceive it to be rude or disrespectful. Point being, the reason I would argue most of "Golden Era" hat etiquette is antiquated and superfluous to 2011 society is because the population is by and large not aware of such rules and consequently are no longer offended when such rules are broken. Waving and saying hello, nodding and shaking, etc are still conceptions held by the population at large. Those norms have not evaporated as has hat etiquette.

Which is of course not to say that one should not break their own personal rules if they feel uncomfortable doing so. For myself, I almost always remove my hat in a restaurant, the exception would be if I simply did not feel comfortable placing my hat under my seat, or if I'm wearing a stingy brim and I'm out with friends of my own age (who know little if anything of hat etiquette as such).


Yes Golden Era hat etiquette is largely irrelevent in today's society and yes the majority will not be offended if such etiquette is not followed. Though I must disagree with one conclusion in this argument. The conclusion is that if the majority knew they were offending people they would modify their behavior. This is false. The majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not. Being respectful is taught and reinforced through consequences. Since neither of those exist for the majority today, they make no effort to be respectful. A society whose citizens have no desire to be respectful can not maintin a social etiquette.

Etiquette has not been replaced by an updated version. It has been eradicted. If its not illegal or likely to get you fired, people pretty much do whatever they feel like with little thought given to others.

Sam Craig
10-18-2011, 02:01 PM
At what it costs to eat out these days ... barring the dollar menu at McD's ... it probably should be up to us to insist that we have a safe place for hats and coats ... extra chairs, etc. and then we probably should be good about using them.

I will admit that I am still more "comfortable" when we go out after church to someplace nice if I can take my hat off.
Having said that, however, I have no problem with keeping it on in one of the chain restaurants .. you know, the ones that put all the old timey stuff all over the walls and then pack in patrons lide sardines ... when they don't provide sufficient room.

Maybe we ought to just excuse ourselves from such establishments and stick to those where we are appreciated ... hats and all.

Sam

jlee562
10-18-2011, 02:03 PM
Yes Golden Era hat etiquette is largely irrelevent in today's society and yes the majority will not be offended if such etiquette is not followed. Though I must disagree with one conclusion in this argument. The conclusion is that if the majority knew they were offending people they would modify their behavior. This is false. The majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not. Being respectful is taught and reinforced through consequences. Since neither of those exist for the majority today, they make no effort to be respectful. A society whose citizens have no desire to be respectful can not maintin a social etiquette.

Etiquette has not been replaced by an updated version. It has been eradicted. If its not illegal or likely to get you fired, people pretty much do whatever they feel like with little thought given to others.

Re: the bolded part in question, that was actually not a conclusion of my argument.

Actions are merely actions, and have no meaning other than what we ascribe to them as social entities. I would therefore heartily disagree with you that etiquette has been "eradicated," and also that "the majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not." The question is offensive to whom?

facade
10-18-2011, 02:18 PM
Re: the bolded part in question, that was actually not a conclusion of my argument.

Actions are merely actions, and have no meaning other than what we ascribe to them as social entities. I would therefore heartily disagree with you that etiquette has been "eradicated," and also that "the majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not." The question is offensive to whom?

Offensive to the general public. People generally maintain some form of manners around their friends and family because their are consequences for poor behavior in those situations. When around the general public people feel free to act in any manner they choose as there are generally no consequences for boorish behavior.

Pompidou
10-18-2011, 02:25 PM
Offensive to the general public. People generally maintain some form of manners around their friends and family because their are consequences for poor behavior in those situations. When around the general public people feel free to act in any manner they choose as there are generally no consequences for boorish behavior.

Does the general public typically look offended when you see it? If the typical person typically offends the general public without consequence, you should be able to see it. I don't. People generally aren't offending others. People generally aren't offended by others - not the "majority" anyway. The majority can't both hold high standards of which they take offense because of, and act with low enough standards to offend everyone else - not simultaneously. Otherwise, we'd have a society where everyone looked like a gentleman and acted like a barbarian. No, I'd argue that etiquette hasn't died. It's just changed. People act as people generally expect people to act - that's etiquette. Even barbarians have etiquette. They just don't have your etiquette - it's an important distinction.

jlee562
10-18-2011, 02:51 PM
What Pompidou said.

Because if offends you, does not mean that it offensive to the general population. As I said, actions are just actions. They only have the meaning we ascribe to them. For example, holding your index finger to your thumb with the rest of your fingers splayed out in the US is the symbol for "ok," but in Mexico (or Russia, or any number of other countries) it's the symbol for saying someone is an a$$****.

The action doesn't change, but the meaning does. And the meaning changes because of the social mores.

facade
10-18-2011, 02:51 PM
Does the general public typically look offended when you see it? If the typical person typically offends the general public without consequence, you should be able to see it. I don't. People generally aren't offending others. People generally aren't offended by others - not the "majority" anyway. The majority can't both hold high standards of which they take offense because of, and act with low enough standards to offend everyone else - not simultaneously. Otherwise, we'd have a society where everyone looked like a gentleman and acted like a barbarian. No, I'd argue that etiquette hasn't died. It's just changed. People act as people generally expect people to act - that's etiquette. Even barbarians have etiquette. They just don't have your etiquette - it's an important distinction.

I see offended people constantly. By the 100's or even 1000's everyday. Today people don't "look" offended that often. Ladies rarely look down their nose and cluck their tongues. Its rare that being rude results in a punch in the nose. Since you can't do anything to a rude person that will modify their behavior and not result in your getting arrested, people instead deal with it another way. They turn off their senses so they can insulate themselves from the people arround them. Ears are constantly plugged with music, or they're on the cell phone/internet, or have their eyes closed/reading. Modern societies obsession with on the go entertainment exists because people are doing everything they can not to have to interact with the people around them.

jlee562
10-18-2011, 03:23 PM
That's specious reasoning to say the least.

Oldsarge
10-18-2011, 03:24 PM
I wouldn't call that being offended, just self-centered, something that one should find offensive. But we don't, we just get a good dose of Shaudenfreude when said iPadded moron runs into a pole and breaks his nose. You're not going to get that from wearing a hat indoors.

scottyrocks
10-18-2011, 06:43 PM
There is no one 'general public.' Today's public is so splintered between economic, ethnic, religious, etc groups, that many things said and done in one group don't apply the same way in some others, although, of course, some do. So, bouncing off what jlee said, being offensive and taking offense are not sure things.

Yeps
10-18-2011, 07:22 PM
Ears are constantly plugged with music Because life is better with a soundtrack.

or they're on the cell phone/internet, it gets excessive sometimes, but communication is nice.

or have their eyes closed You begrudge us a little nap on the train?

/reading. Really? You have a problem with reading? Few enough people read as it is. Leave them alone.


Modern societies obsession with on the go entertainment exists because people are doing everything they can not to have to interact with the people around them.
This seems like quite a leap of reasoning. Other than personal opinion/misanthropy, why would you say this?

EggHead
10-18-2011, 10:08 PM
Manor Coffee Shop on West Portal has hooks, whenever I'm in there, my hat is on the hook!

I still have not been to Tadich Grill, shame on me, I could use a good hangtown fry.

Thanks jlee, I sometimes go to West Portal, there is an interesting kids gift shop there. I will also visit that coffee place.

EggHead
10-18-2011, 10:20 PM
BTW, in San Francisco, if you go to older restaurants, chances are that you will have hat hooks available. Some seafood and Italian restaurants come to mind along Fisherman's Wharf and Columbus street.

BTW, I get not so much offended, but annoyed at people whose music noise I can hear through their headphones when riding PT.

facade
10-19-2011, 02:05 AM
There is no one 'general public.' Today's public is so splintered between economic, ethnic, religious, etc groups, that many things said and done in one group don't apply the same way in some others, although, of course, some do. So, bouncing off what jlee said, being offensive and taking offense are not sure things.

I completey agree. When societies become so fractured it becomes impossible to have a social etiquette. There are just too many people following either different or no rules at all. In order to limit the disorder such fracturing causes, governments are forced to restrict the power of individuals and groups of individuals. As individuals are made powerless by the government, there is no way to enforce a social norm. So in the public you will be bombarded by the intentionally rude (those who only think of themselves) and the unintentionally rude (those following a different set of rules). People don't know how to act around each other because there are no common social rules. As people are powerless against this chaos the only option is to become deaf, dumb and blind.

job
10-19-2011, 04:16 AM
Too deep for me. Wearing a hat at the diner table is poor manners. Did your mother teach you manners. Your mother is not from a hundred years ago.

Sam Craig
10-19-2011, 06:29 AM
Sorry, Job, but there are a lot of places in the West where a hat at the dinner table is NOT bad manners.

Your momma's would not be one of them, however, I do agree!

Sam

Travis Lee Johnston
10-19-2011, 06:39 AM
It seems more of a midwest and east coast etiquette thing to not wear a hat indoors or at the table from people I've met from those places and being originally from the midwest myself. Here and in California I've seen people with hats on inside and in restaurants. Young and old.

Undertow
10-19-2011, 08:53 AM
The thing is, etiquette is norms based...Which is of course not to say that one should not break their own personal rules if they feel uncomfortable doing so...

Quite right on all accounts (I simply abridged your info to fit better). You and Pompidou have very good points.

I suppose I'm looking at it from a different angle, and probably not a correct one at that.

Example, gun safety. If society does not observe specific etiquette (read routine) in the safe handling of guns, it will not change the need for said etiquette, and most responsible gun owners will not change their routine. If you and I are both gun owners and we meet at a firing range, regardless of society's norms, we will both appreciate each other's safe handling of our firearms. Thus, regardless of the way society feels, you and I both know what is needed and we follow those standards.

Therefore, when I wear my hat, I specifically observe proper etiqutte not just for society, but especially for the folks who know and appreciate my gestures. Does this make sense? I'm not arguing your point, I guess I'm just filling in my own.

jlee562
10-19-2011, 01:28 PM
I completey agree. When societies become so fractured it becomes impossible to have a social etiquette. There are just too many people following either different or no rules at all. In order to limit the disorder such fracturing causes, governments are forced to restrict the power of individuals and groups of individuals. As individuals are made powerless by the government, there is no way to enforce a social norm. So in the public you will be bombarded by the intentionally rude (those who only think of themselves) and the unintentionally rude (those following a different set of rules). People don't know how to act around each other because there are no common social rules. As people are powerless against this chaos the only option is to become deaf, dumb and blind.

And now you're contradicting yourself because earlier you said that such actions were offensive to the "general public" but you're agreeing that no such thing exists.

As I said, I have a background in social sciences, and I find your reasoning hard to follow. Am I to understand per your previous post that you are suggesting assault in order to "correct" someone's manners?


Its rare that being rude results in a punch in the nose. Since you can't do anything to a rude person that will modify their behavior and not result in your getting arrested, people instead deal with it another way.

facade
10-19-2011, 04:01 PM
And now you're contradicting yourself because earlier you said that such actions were offensive to the "general public" but you're agreeing that no such thing exists.

As I said, I have a background in social sciences, and I find your reasoning hard to follow. Am I to understand per your previous post that you are suggesting assault in order to "correct" someone's manners?

There is a general public. I do not believe he was literally saying he believes there is no general public. His point was that within the general public of this country there are many competing factions and little common ground. To that I agree.

Regarding a punch in the nose, I am not advocating any sort of behavior, violent or otherwise. I am simply stating that without consequences a greater percentage of the population will feel free to engage in offensive behavior.

jlee562
10-19-2011, 04:23 PM
To which my reply would be that what qualifies as "offensive" is not universal and that society dictates what is offensive. If society does not find behavior x, y, or z, than, for all intents and purposes, it is not offensive, even though at the individual level we may object to it as such.

scottyrocks
10-19-2011, 05:03 PM
There is a general public. I do not believe he was literally saying he believes there is no general public. His point was that within the general public of this country there are many competing factions and little common ground. To that I agree.

Regarding a punch in the nose, I am not advocating any sort of behavior, violent or otherwise. I am simply stating that without consequences a greater percentage of the population will feel free to engage in offensive behavior.

I don't believe there is literally no general public. Just making a point. Fractured society kind of thing. Also, I use the term 'punch in the nose' to make a point, as in, harsh enough measures to affect a change.

jlee562
10-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Not withstanding the fact that I have never lived in a different era, I find the idea that society is more "fractured" today as opposed to say, the 20's or 30's to be, shall we say, unconvincing. The most obvious reason being racial segregation. But more obliquely, advancements in transportation and communication, consolidation of media and media consumption, have had a homogenizing effect on society. Which is not to say that there are no divisions be they regional, ethnic, cultural, economic or otherwise, but I don't see a seismic shift in the very nature of society.

scottyrocks
10-19-2011, 05:34 PM
Not withstanding the fact that I have never lived in a different era, I find the idea that society is more "fractured" today as opposed to say, the 20's or 30's to be, shall we say, unconvincing. The most obvious reason being racial segregation. But more obliquely, advancements in transportation and communication, consolidation of media and media consumption, have had a homogenizing effect on society. Which is not to say that there are no divisions be they regional, ethnic, cultural, economic or otherwise, but I don't see a seismic shift in the very nature of society.

Where I live and were I work are like two different planets. Not a lot of homogenization between the two.

jlee562
10-19-2011, 06:02 PM
Where I live and were I work are like two different planets. Not a lot of homogenization between the two.

But my argument pertains to wider societal effects. Consider the advent of television and its ubiquity in the American home. Prior to the advent of television, news was disseminated through radio and newspapers. Although there was some consolidation of this media (E.G. William Randolph Hearst), by in large, the information was localized. Sure, there were national news stories, but because of the inherent limited range of radio, there was no true national medium of information. Until television. TV comes along and eventually we're all watching the same shows, seeing the same advertisements - which means that to a much larger extent than before, people are socialized much more homogeneously than they had been previously.

scottyrocks
10-19-2011, 06:18 PM
Yes, true, but there are still vastly different thought patterns between different types of groups. And this is what relates to the point we were talking about earlier - how offense may or not be taken because of these differing ways of thinking, regardless of how we receive our information via mass media.

jlee562
10-19-2011, 06:24 PM
No, I understand that point. I'm simply saying that I don't see how society is supposedly more "fractured" today than it was in years past where you had deeper divisions along ethnic and regional lines. And my argument is not just about mass media, that is merely the easiest way to illustrate my point.

maxrob200
10-19-2011, 06:28 PM
Just noticing a sudden increase in prices/popularity on ebay for Stetson Western hats in general. I have a theory - Dr Who Series Series 6 starts off with the good doctor proclaiming "I wear a Stetson- Stetsons are cool". Since that time (or my imagination) I've observed hat prices steadily rising.

scottyrocks
10-19-2011, 06:31 PM
No, I understand that point. I'm simply saying that I don't see how society is supposedly more "fractured" today than it was in years past where you had deeper divisions along ethnic and regional lines. And my argument is not just about mass media, that is merely the easiest way to illustrate my point.

Okay, I see your point. I guess I wasn't saying that society is more fractured, just fractured.

facade
10-19-2011, 07:06 PM
No, I understand that point. I'm simply saying that I don't see how society is supposedly more "fractured" today than it was in years past where you had deeper divisions along ethnic and regional lines. And my argument is not just about mass media, that is merely the easiest way to illustrate my point.

In the 20's and 30's the population of the USA was 90% white and the white population held 100% of the power. So those in the minority had no choice but to play by the rules set by the majority. So yes society had deep social problems and divides but it was much less fractured. Today there is much more diversity and the power of the majority is vastly curtailed. Further far greater governmental power was held by local communities of the 20's and 30's. They had the power to enforce whatever social rules they deemed necessary. Today local communities have no power whatsoever to enforce any type of social rules.

Social order comes from people who share common values and a sense of community. Further the local community must have the power to enforce these shared values. When none of these exist you have what we have today.

Let me head off the inevitable charges of racism. I am not advocating the oppression of minorities.

masiaka
10-19-2011, 07:29 PM
In the 20's and 30's that white 90% of the US was split between Protestants and Catholics, there was frequent infighting between the ethnically Irish and the ethnically Italian to name but one exclusively white conflict, despite the WASP bias in power there was a greater disparity between upper class and lower with little to no middle class, etc. There wasn't a unifying culture to whitewash away the other differences between these groups of people, if you'll pardon my pun. As an example, the Klu Klux Klan was historically anti-Catholic as well as universally racist. Social division was more widespread than I think you realize, that era in our society only looks more homogenous than (and more polite than) our own in hindsight. Nostalgia is perfectly acceptable on this website, though. ;)

facade
10-19-2011, 07:51 PM
In the 20's and 30's that white 90% of the US was split between Protestants and Catholics, there was frequent infighting between the ethnically Irish and the ethnically Italian to name but one exclusively white conflict, despite the WASP bias in power there was a greater disparity between upper class and lower with little to no middle class, etc. There wasn't a unifying culture to whitewash away the other differences between these groups of people, if you'll pardon my pun. As an example, the Klu Klux Klan was historically anti-Catholic as well as universally racist. Social division was more widespread than I think you realize, that era in our society only looks more homogenous than (and more polite than) our own in hindsight. Nostalgia is perfectly acceptable on this website, though. ;)

No argument. There has always been differences and strife. There has never been a time of Eden in the USA. It is not my intention to suggest otherwise. I still maintain things were less fractured though. When it comes to social order it doesn't matter whether people like each other. It doesn't matter whether the rules are fair or that everyone has a say. Nor does it matter if communities live by different rules. What matters is that people are willing to live by the rules of their community. When a community has competing rules or no rules at all, then you have social disorder and a fractured society.

jlee562
10-19-2011, 08:13 PM
In the 20's and 30's the population of the USA was 90% white and the white population held 100% of the power. So those in the minority had no choice but to play by the rules set by the majority. So yes society had deep social problems and divides but it was much less fractured. Today there is much more diversity and the power of the majority is vastly curtailed. Further far greater governmental power was held by local communities of the 20's and 30's. They had the power to enforce whatever social rules they deemed necessary. Today local communities have no power whatsoever to enforce any type of social rules.

Social order comes from people who share common values and a sense of community. Further the local community must have the power to enforce these shared values. When none of these exist you have what we have today.

Let me head off the inevitable charges of racism. I am not advocating the oppression of minorities.

The underlying assumption conflating government and social rules is, to be kind, a tenuous connection.

Give me some examples of local government enforcing social rules that is no longer possible.

Masiaka's point is well taken, and honestly I don't see how you seem to be reconciling his point with your own. While you are roughly correct on your percentages, I think you have taken a largely a-historical analysis to forward your own viewpoints.

ShortAndCashed
10-19-2011, 08:16 PM
Getting back to the topic of hipsters wearing hats rudely, I must admit, that I do not always observe the etiquette myself, for numerous reasons. Firstly, accommodations are NEVER made in my rural town for hat lovers. Even those who wear overcoats here are out of luck. Secondly, my hats/caps leave me with horrible cases of hat hair... I don't know why, I guess I have sensitive hair. Thirdly, nobody has ever noticed. I would even venture so far as to say that there might be a half dozen of the elders here that even know what hat etiquette is, maybe 2 that know the actual "rules." I have yet to be looked down upon because I'm wearing a hat indoors. That being said, if I know I will be somewhere I would feel uncomfortable in a hat, I simply don't wear one.