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ForestForTheTrees
12-23-2012, 11:20 PM
I've developed a strong preference for Horween's Chromexcel hide. I have numerous shoes/boots made with the stuff as well as one jacket. All of those examples are of steerhide as opposed to horsehide. My next jacket is going to be horsehide Chromexcel, but to be honest, I only went with horsehide because it was cheaper than the steerhide. I've actually handled the hide (I ordered the hides directly through Horween) and while I'm sure it will make a great jacket, there's a part of me second guessing myself, wishing I had invested a bit more for the steerhide CXL. I'd love to have a pair of shoes constructed of Horween's Shell Cordovan horsehide. However, when it comes to jackets, I personally find Horween's steerhide to every bit as desirable as their horsehide.

I'm a bit perplexed that horsehide has developed the mystique that it has around here. I used to think that some folks were drawn to horsehide because of the grain of the product, but the whole Aero situation has shown that the two hide types are practically indistinguishable from one another when the final product is examined. For those that have owned both quality steerhide and horsehide and have developed a preference for horsehide, I'd be interested to know what is it about the horsehide that you prefer? Did you develop this preference over time?

Edward
12-24-2012, 01:55 AM
Perceived exclusivity has a lot to do with it. If aluminium was rarer than gold, it'd be worth more. As well as rarity, there's the perception that horse was much more common back in the day, so it has "vintage accuracy" points. With A2s, horse was the original spec, which makes it more popular than goat among many fans and collectors. I love my fqhh jackets, though I don't consider them to be inherently superior to the steer and goat I have from the same maker.

majormajor
12-24-2012, 04:31 AM
With A2s, horse was the original spec, which makes it more popular than goat among many fans and collectors.

After studying Gary Eastman's new A2 bible, it would seem that many original A2s were steer, and that the government contracts had passed that hide as being acceptable.

So maybe, in time, steer will become as valued to the connoisseur as horse:D

Sloan1874
12-24-2012, 04:40 AM
I would be interested in seeing some examples of HH next to goat. How do they compare weight-wise? If you were going to have a summer-weight jacket, which would you go for?

majormajor
12-24-2012, 04:44 AM
I'm no expert, but the ones I've seen seem to be a similar weight, but the goat seems a softer hide.

The A2 was considered a summer jacket (it was layered under shearlings in winter), so I guess either would do.

Aerojoe
12-24-2012, 07:53 AM
Maybe horsehide is perceived as more authentic when it comes to A2 jackets and others.

Right now, all my keepers happen to be goat skin. I didn't select them on purpose.

Tomasso
12-24-2012, 08:02 AM
I'm a bit perplexed that horsehide has developed the mystique that it has around here. :arated:

Dr H
12-24-2012, 08:35 AM
I would be interested in seeing some examples of HH next to goat. How do they compare weight-wise? If you were going to have a summer-weight jacket, which would you go for?

Veg tanned goatskin is significantly lighter than most forms of horsehide (and better wearing). For the last few years I have preferred capeskin or goatskin as summer jackets (e.g. capeskin A-1 jackets by Eastman or Good Wear, goatskin Good Wear A-2 Perry Sportswear 23377 or Doniger jackets). I've tried horsehide (I had a terrific Good Wear Perry Sportswear 42-16175-P), but it was just too heavy/warm during the summer months.

Aerojoe
12-24-2012, 08:38 AM
I've tried horsehide (I had a terrific Good Wear Perry Sportswear 42-16175-P), but it was just too heavy/warm during the summer months.

What did it happen to this jacket? Do you keep it?

Dr H
12-24-2012, 08:58 AM
I've had two horsehide GW Perry 42-16175-P A-2 jackets (one russet, one seal) and an original (44) - sold them all to VLJF members.
The GW russet had seen some hot water treatment in the past and was a bit snug in the chest; I didn't get on with the seal (too dark for my taste). I needed a regular wearer and the vintage Perry was too good for daily wear.

Aerojoe
12-24-2012, 09:04 AM
Ok :) The Perry 42-16175-P is one of my favourite A2 contracts.

Plumbline
12-24-2012, 09:31 AM
I'm another who prefers chrome tanned steer to horse on jackets ..... but then somewhat abnormally I prefer medium weight ( both horse and steer) to the really heavy variants. I think it's very personal and depends how the hide wears ... my experience of Horweens Chrome Tanned Steer is that it ages amazingly and quite quickly whereas FQHH takes ages to soften and age ... even Jerky HH takes ages. Vintage HH is a bit like cheating since it's tumbled to make it more pliant and softer but it doesn't have that sheen of Chrome Tanned hide.

Goat is incredibly durable and soft from the get go but doesn't really have the weight and drape of steer or horse ( great for an A1 / A2 / Bomber / USN jacket - G1 M422a though ) .... I seem to recall John Chapman posting pics of a STUNNING capeskin A1 on VLJ

For me on most jackets it's steer that ages best .... but EVERYONE should have at least one FQHH jacket in their lives just to pit your wits against it in the breaking in process :) :) :)

trapp
12-24-2012, 09:41 AM
I think many have come to prefer horsehide because they've been told that its preferable. As mentioned, nobody can tell the difference between quality horse and quality steer, except for a few experts. The issue at Aero has born that out beyond any reasonable doubt.

pak
12-24-2012, 09:43 AM
I prefer goat over steer and HH. All of these comparisons make me wonder about pigskin and why it isn't in the picture.

St. Valentine
12-24-2012, 09:59 AM
Very interesting thread! It tells a lot about the fine people here on the FL that even a "holy cow" (or should I say "holy horse") can be slaughtered without the usual fighting that would start in other forums.

Back to topic: While I find myself constantly staring in the direction of a HH-A2 I am not so sure about it after reading here. I still have an old Avirex of which I am not sure if its steer or HH, but dang is that jacket heavy! :eeek: Wearing my goat-A2 is much more comfortable for me, especially when sitting in the car.
Additonally I find it quit disturbing that it seems to be so difficult to distinguish HH and steer from each other up to the point where customers were deceived when buying a jacket. Saying that I am not sure if I will give HH a try after all some day but these informations and oppinions are enlightening indeed! :eusa_clap

JLStorm
12-24-2012, 10:00 AM
I prefer steer as I like the heavier weight hides a available and the deeper grain that can be found. However, i seem to recall several conversations stating that oz per oz fqhh was stronger and more protective than steer. Its a moot point in most cases since steer has a heavier oz weight anyway. But if one was looking for strength and wanted to save weight it seems to have its merits, although i think goat hide is more durable than both and has more elasticity?

Then of course there is the whole fqhh is naturally more water resistant than steer. Although Areo claims the chrome tanning process makes both hides equally water resistant, many who ride in the rain swear there is a difference.

schitzo
12-24-2012, 10:01 AM
EVERYONE should have at least one FQHH jacket in their lives just to pit your wits against it in the breaking in process :) :) :)

Breaking in my FQHH jacket wasn't such a big deal. Just a few weeks of wearing it for a couple of hours each night while I was driving around and it was soft and comfortable. I suppose the trouble is people typically don't spend that long wearing their jackets, plus when they do they're not really doing anything in them

Dr H
12-24-2012, 10:02 AM
.. I seem to recall John Chapman posting pics of a STUNNING capeskin A1 on VLJ

That might be mine - a test jacket of an early A-1 pattern with buttons instead of snaps at the waist and a single collar button.

Baron Kurtz
12-24-2012, 11:22 AM
I've never enjoyed having sore shoulders from wearing a jacket, so I don't like heavy steer or horse. The heavy bullhide of vintage German leather jackets is insufferable. I tried on Paddy's Aero barnstormer (in one of their horse variants; not sure which)many years ago, and frankly it turned me off the brand. Too heavy, by far.

A nice lightweight horsehide or goat hide jacket with a good heavy woolen lining for winter, and a rayon lined one for summer. My own preference is strongly in favour of goat hide, as I prefer the grain.

I just noted that the very warmest leather jacket I own is a capeskin French military number from the 30s. It's all down to the spectacularly dense wool liner.

What I've never understood is the idea that one hide is better for winter than another. The hide does nothing, in my experience - all down to the liner.

bk

B-24J
12-24-2012, 11:25 AM
I would be interested in seeing some examples of HH next to goat. How do they compare weight-wise? If you were going to have a summer-weight jacket, which would you go for?

As Willis & Geiger were closing, I purchased these A-2 jackets.

Horse hide in Dark Seal and Goat in Light Seal.

I have worn the HH extensively and the goat not at all. But Any difference in the grain is visible.

The HH was about 15 percent more expensive.

The goat is marginally lighter in weight than the HH.

John

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/B-24J/WG-1.jpg

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/B-24J/WG-2.jpg

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/B-24J/WG-3.jpg

ForestForTheTrees
12-24-2012, 11:31 AM
Great discussion so far and thanks for all of the input. Sometimes I think that it's a bit easier to focus on the type of hide rather than the tanning process involved. I've been stuck out in a downpour while walking for a couple of miles in my steerhide jacket and it kept me remarkably dry and the leather itself was not soaked, which I would attribute primarily to the Chromexcel tanning process involved.

Interesting that goat would be mentioned as it is another great option. When I purchased my riding jacket I went with steerhide, but I was very tempted by the goatskin that Langlitz offers. I did end up with goatskin riding pants. Goat is indeed very tough yet very supple and another fine choice.

Baron Kurtz
12-24-2012, 12:04 PM
You're absolutely right. Any kind of water-/weather- proofing is all down to the tanning.

To the original post, of why horsehide has such a mystique. There's a strange relationship apparently between man and horse - to the point where the US has some very strange laws regarding what happens to a horse (as opposed to any other animal) to the point where IIRC no horse killing for leather can occur in the US (I may have that slightly wrong, but there is something odd i the back of my mind re: US law and horse demise). Maybe that unavailability/difficult availability makes it more desirable. The price is higher, probably due to the sheer number of cows/goats/sheep etc. being destroyed every day as compared to horses. And of course, rumours of better durability/waterproofing are self sustaining, particularly after the advent of the internet.

Joel Shapiro
12-24-2012, 12:26 PM
I've had two horsehide GW Perry 42-16175-P A-2 jackets (one russet, one seal) and an original (44) - sold them all to VLJF members.
The GW russet had seen some hot water treatment in the past and was a bit snug in the chest; I didn't get on with the seal (too dark for my taste). I needed a regular wearer and the vintage Perry was too good for daily wear.

Does the goatskin keep you as warm as the horsehide? My only concern with goat is that it won't be usable below 40 degrees. And since I only put on a jacket at 55 degree, that's not much of a range and I doubt I'd use it a lot. A Doniger A-2 is a thing of beauty, though.

Worf
12-24-2012, 01:20 PM
Breaking in my FQHH jacket wasn't such a big deal. Just a few weeks of wearing it for a couple of hours each night while I was driving around and it was soft and comfortable. I suppose the trouble is people typically don't spend that long wearing their jackets, plus when they do they're not really doing anything in them

I concur, almost every day this fall/winter I've driven in one of my 4 HH jackets/coats. Driving makes the upper coat "break-in" amazingly fast. I also walk daily around 11:00 AM, while taking my (ahem) "Constitutional", I work my arms throwing punches occaisionally to loosen up the Horse. Of course the sight of me shadow boxing with myself might just get me a trip to the rubber room but hey... you wanna play? You gotta pay!

Worf

Seb Lucas
12-24-2012, 02:12 PM
I like my HH Aero but I have had at least 6 goat hide jackets and for my money they are the best as they are soft, light (I don't get the heavy jacket fetish since they aren't warmer unless they have a good lining) and they wear like iron. What's not to like?

tonypaj
12-24-2012, 02:27 PM
I have under the Christmas tree two horse hide jackets, one new one used. One for me, one for my son. There are plenty of others in the household, made of all kinds of dead animals. All used, all the time. My favorite is still the A-2 kind leather horse hide Stuart. It just feels right. Now if someone came and told me it is cow, the response would be "OK".

Asienizen
12-24-2012, 07:44 PM
The whole "what's so great about HH?" debate is an interesting topic. I've looked into it and there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus. Plenty of people say that HH is more water/ wear resistant than cow, and plenty of people say it is essentially the same. I have a HH A2, and a jacket from buffalo hide. To compare the two, I would say the horse is more water, stain, and abrasion resistant - I did crash my motorcycle wearing it - the jacket came out better than I did. It has held up well for the past 2 years, but if someone told me that it was actually cowhide, I would just say, "Well there goes the mystique."
Frankly, the jacket is a bit heavy - my next A2 would be a mid-weight goatskin. But I'd encourage the jacket enthusiast to have owned a HH jacket at least once to see what it's like in comparison to other types.

JLStorm
12-24-2012, 09:51 PM
Great discussion so far and thanks for all of the input. Sometimes I think that it's a bit easier to focus on the type of hide rather than the tanning process involved. I've been stuck out in a downpour while walking for a couple of miles in my steerhide jacket and it kept me remarkably dry and the leather itself was not soaked, which I would attribute primarily to the Chromexcel tanning process involved.

Interesting that goat would be mentioned as it is another great option. When I purchased my riding jacket I went with steerhide, but I was very tempted by the goatskin that Langlitz offers. I did end up with goatskin riding pants. Goat is indeed very tough yet very supple and another fine choice.

I think I recall reading several discussions that stated goat wasn't as protective for riding. Not sure if that is just because the fqhh and steer are heavier and/or thicker, or if it is false information. I've torture tested close to 15 samples of fqhh, mid weight horse, various cow weights, goat and bison with pliers screw drivers and a leatherman tool. The bison has been almost indestructible and it's very supple. I can't imagine it patinas well, but I would think for riding it would be an excellent choice unless being too supple is a drawback. Not sure on water resistance though.

hpalapdog
12-24-2012, 10:24 PM
You're absolutely right. Any kind of water-/weather- proofing is all down to the tanning.

To the original post, of why horsehide has such a mystique. There's a strange relationship apparently between man and horse - to the point where the US has some very strange laws regarding what happens to a horse (as opposed to any other animal) to the point where IIRC no horse killing for leather can occur in the US (I may have that slightly wrong, but there is something odd i the back of my mind re: US law and horse demise). Maybe that unavailability/difficult availability makes it more desirable. The price is higher, probably due to the sheer number of cows/goats/sheep etc. being destroyed every day as compared to horses. And of course, rumours of better durability/waterproofing are self sustaining, particularly after the advent of the internet.

The mystique element seems to originate from marketing. I remember HPA (the US Eastman distributor) using the term 'mustang'. An attempt to conjure up images of wild horses roaming freely. The reality is more mundane. There are thousands of horses breed for meat and thousands in the UK going to the knackers yard after their equestrian days are over. The meat goes into pet food and the hides either into general circulation or landfill/incineration. The bones used to be ground up and made into bone china clay.
Looking at the price list of European tanneries equine hides are no more expensive than bovine. Both prices are set by the leather grading. Due to uneven thickness and marks equine tends to be cheaper than something like an unblemished calf skin. Demand seems to fluctuate. At the moment it's strong, in past periods the tanneries couldn't get rid of the stuff.

hpalapdog
12-24-2012, 10:37 PM
The strongest leather per ounce is Kangaroo followed by goat. Goat is certainly used in racing suits.

The most important element of water proofing is the top finish. This can be a totally waterproof pvc paint right through to a non-water proof aniline coating.
Horween's chromexcel is stuffed full of fat liquors making a water resistant leather that still breaths nicely.

http://www.indiamart.com/poplon/leather-chemicals-fat-liquors.html

The fact that it's veg tanned then chrome retanned makes it durable too

http://horween.com/leathers/chromexcel/

Baron Kurtz
12-25-2012, 02:49 AM
I was told by someone who studies horse tendon regeneration after injury that an awful lot of British horse meat goes to the French retail market, too. They can't get enough of this lovely meat, apparently. That's another question that needs asking - what does the anglo-saxon consumer have against horse meat?


There are thousands of horses breed for meat and thousands in the UK going to the knackers yard after their equestrian days are over. The meat goes into pet food and the hides either into general circulation or landfill/incineration.

Rudie
12-25-2012, 03:58 AM
Does the goatskin keep you as warm as the horsehide? My only concern with goat is that it won't be usable below 40 degrees. And since I only put on a jacket at 55 degree, that's not much of a range and I doubt I'd use it a lot. A Doniger A-2 is a thing of beauty, though.

I've worn my goat jacket with the A-2 summer cotton lining plus a heavy wool sweater at 30F. Very comfortable. Even rode the bicycle. The baron is right, it depends on what you wear underneath the leather.

I still think Aero's brown FQHH looks and ages the nicest. And it's pretty much waterproof. But I found it much too heavy for my liking. The Aero goat on the other hand is not waterproof and doesn't develop such a nice patina, but it's very comfy right out of the box. Still very substantial, but lighter and not as stiff. A great hide. Now if there was a hide that looks like the brown FQHH and wears like goat I'd be very tempted to buy me a second jacket. Wasn't there something called "shaved FQHH" that is supposed to be just that? ;)

hpalapdog
12-25-2012, 08:45 AM
That's another question that needs asking - what does the anglo-saxon consumer have against horse meat?

I wouldn't be surprised if mechanically separated meat slurry from eastern Europe and South America contains horse. This finds it's way into cheap pasties etc. here.

I seem to remember my parents paying the knackers man for removal for my old childhood pony http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/m444uk/cry-anim.gif http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/m444uk/cry-anim.gif http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/m444uk/cry-anim.gif

resortes805
12-25-2012, 10:33 PM
Maybe horsehide is perceived as more authentic when it comes to A2 jackets and others.



For vintage clothing enthusiasts, horsehide, like heavy drapey gabardine of the 1940s or the rayon used to make aloha shirts of the same era, is not readily available and thus has become symbolic of a bygone era for some.

JLStorm
12-25-2012, 11:45 PM
The strongest leather per ounce is Kangaroo followed by goat. Goat is certainly used in racing suits.

The most important element of water proofing is the top finish. This can be a totally waterproof pvc paint right through to a non-water proof aniline coating.
Horween's chromexcel is stuffed full of fat liquors making a water resistant leather that still breaths nicely.

http://www.indiamart.com/poplon/leather-chemicals-fat-liquors.html

The fact that it's veg tanned then chrome retanned makes it durable too

http://horween.com/leathers/chromexcel/

I didn't know goat was used in racing suits. Learn something new every day on here. I've had kangaroo gloves which were great for dexterity, but were too thin to be warm (more due to lack of insulation than anything else I suppose). Do they make jackets / clothing from kangaroo? I don't recall seeing it in anything other than shoes and gloves.


I've worn my goat jacket with the A-2 summer cotton lining plus a heavy wool sweater at 30F. Very comfortable. Even rode the bicycle. The baron is right, it depends on what you wear underneath the leather.

I still think Aero's brown FQHH looks and ages the nicest. And it's pretty much waterproof. But I found it much too heavy for my liking. The Aero goat on the other hand is not waterproof and doesn't develop such a nice patina, but it's very comfy right out of the box. Still very substantial, but lighter and not as stiff. A great hide. Now if there was a hide that looks like the brown FQHH and wears like goat I'd be very tempted to buy me a second jacket. Wasn't there something called "shaved FQHH" that is supposed to be just that? ;)

I'd agree that the FQHH I've seen from Aero looks the nicest as it ages. The patina it gets seems much more impressive than any of the other hides I've seen or owned.

Seb Lucas
12-26-2012, 12:29 AM
Yeah, Kangaroo makes a great bike jacket. It's very like the Norween FQHH in terms of thickness and density. But it takes even more to break in. I had a jacket I wore often over 15 years that refused to break in. These days over here, kanga leather is sold off to overseas companies so it is hard to get. I had a long half-belt in kanga which I donated to a thriftstore last year - I found it too stiff. I understand that kanga is the most abrasion resistant leather you can get - tougher than HH or steer.

gtdean48
12-26-2012, 09:13 AM
Same as in the States = what I call "noble domestic animal syndrome"...some places eat dog meat too....cattle & other animals don't measure up so they are okay to eat...

OT = I bought a horsehide belt & really love it. That made me want a horsehide jacket...I have a few steerhide jackets & the horsehide is remarkably different to me...

I was told by someone who studies horse tendon regeneration after injury that an awful lot of British horse meat goes to the French retail market, too. They can't get enough of this lovely meat, apparently. That's another question that needs asking - what does the anglo-saxon consumer have against horse meat?

Fanch
12-26-2012, 09:33 AM
My preference for upper leather on my western cowboy boots is kangaroo, and I have found that the kangaroo leather used for the uppers on my western boots is very supple, even more so than kid skin.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff231/jrfancher/D049F5BD-2772-4CBE-B2FC-41DCB5E9837C-573-0000014CE67ED653.jpg

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff231/jrfancher/E408B146-2FD4-450D-8E71-BF8F51A9B0BE-573-0000014CE08D7045.jpg

Both pair are ostrich bottoms and kangaroo uppers. The ostrich skin is incredibly supple and comfortable but, unlike FQHH, absorbs water like a sponge. I have considered ordering a pair of shell cordovan (horse) western boots from J.B. Hill Boot Company in El Paso, Texas, but have not as yet gotten around to it.

JLStorm
12-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Yeah, Kangaroo makes a great bike jacket. It's very like the Norween FQHH in terms of thickness and density. But it takes even more to break in. I had a jacket I wore often over 15 years that refused to break in. These days over here, kanga leather is sold off to overseas companies so it is hard to get. I had a long half-belt in kanga which I donated to a thriftstore last year - I found it too stiff. I understand that kanga is the most abrasion resistant leather you can get - tougher than HH or steer.

Thats what I had heard about kangaroo boots. I have a pair, not the best quality I'm sure (irish setter I think) and they have held up quite well for several years of mud, snow, chores, and scrapes against rocks and god knows what else. I like that they are thin and light, but tough. I don't mind heavy red wing logger boots when I need the support and toe protection, but its nice to have sneaker weight boots on for comfortable walks, etc.

tommygun
01-01-2013, 09:45 PM
For someone like myself, that got into quality jackets in the last few years, Most of what you read or hear always went to horsehide as THE quality jacket. I'm not saying that is the case, just what a lot of companies make you believe. Tough, waterproof etc.., And they are normally a little more expensive, giving the "feeling" of the the best. I Think it is actually pretty comfortable once it is broken in, and always seems to look nice. Just my $.02:)

Don Tomaso
01-02-2013, 03:57 AM
Well, if I'm not mistaken, the strongest leather per weight is calf, followed by goat and the horse. Steer comes in as a fourth. Not sure where you have to place kangaroo, though.

thor
01-02-2013, 06:41 AM
Well, if I'm not mistaken, the strongest leather per weight is calf, followed by goat and the horse. Steer comes in as a fourth. Not sure where you have to place kangaroo, though.

Or water buffalo? That stuff is super-tough!

Seb Lucas
01-02-2013, 12:26 PM
From what I've always heard and read kangaroo is the strongest followed by goat. The abrasion resistance and tensile strength of both is unrivalled. I personally prefer the look of aged cowhide.

Graemsay
01-02-2013, 02:59 PM
It's not quite as simple as that.

Kangaroo is the strongest leather for a given thickness, but the marsupials are quite thin skinned. Cowhide is weaker, but comes in heavier weights, meaning it wins overall.

A lot of motorbike racers use kangaroo leather suits because they can be lighter for a given strength, but Brian Sampson of BKS Leathers reckons that they're only good for one crash! Road racers, who are known to have the odd off, are frequently spotted in cow.

Asienizen
01-02-2013, 07:39 PM
Or water buffalo? That stuff is super-tough!

I have a jacket in w-buffalo, and one in HH. I would say the buffalo is thick and therefore tough. It is bendable and has a flex that the horse doesn't. But buffalo is not nearly as abrasion resistant as horse. It's surface is matte and soft - like lambskin. I would trust buffalo to protect my skin, but it would look like it was hit with a belt sander. I'd still take horse over buffalo for a meeting with the pavement.

ForestForTheTrees
01-02-2013, 07:50 PM
I have a jacket in w-buffalo, and one in HH. I would say the buffalo is thick and therefore tough. It is bendable and has a flex that the horse doesn't. But buffalo is not nearly as abrasion resistant as horse. It's surface is matte and soft - like lambskin. I would trust buffalo to protect my skin, but it would look like it was hit with a belt sander. I'd still take horse over buffalo for a meeting with the pavement.

I'd be really curious how these two hides would compare in an actual controlled experiment. I ran some tests on the buffalo hides that I received from Johnson Leathers and for all of the scratching/scrawling (with a nail) that I did, you'd never guess that any such thing had been done to the hides by looking at them.

Asienizen
01-02-2013, 08:09 PM
Maybe we're talking about different hides, or different tanning methods. Here is a picture- bad lighting though.


http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u455/Asienizen/Leather%20jackets/191_3231_zpsc49dd7d3.jpg
http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u455/Asienizen/Leather%20jackets/190_3217_zps72c6a933.jpg

ForestForTheTrees
01-02-2013, 10:15 PM
That looks pretty similar. The hide I'm referring to was also more of a matte finish. It's the same as what JLStorm just chose for his new jacket, only not as thick. Have you managed to scratch your buffalo hide jacket yet?

Seb Lucas
01-02-2013, 11:13 PM
It's not quite as simple as that.

Kangaroo is the strongest leather for a given thickness, but the marsupials are quite thin skinned. Cowhide is weaker, but comes in heavier weights, meaning it wins overall.

A lot of motorbike racers use kangaroo leather suits because they can be lighter for a given strength, but Brian Sampson of BKS Leathers reckons that they're only good for one crash! Road racers, who are known to have the odd off, are frequently spotted in cow.

Actually it's not as simple as that either.

Kangas, at six feet plus, are often larger than a big man and the skin at 2.5 oz is actually stronger than 3.5 oz cow or 3 oz horse. But let's not let a little thing like hide get in the way of our fun here.

les_garten
01-03-2013, 10:35 PM
I just sold an Aero Buffalo and am selling it's "Prairie Mate" presently. It's Aero, but I believe you'll concur, it ain't Cow when you look at it.

It is basically 4.5oz goat in feel. Heavy, but supple. It does not crease, just like Goat doesn't. It's tough as nails. These two Jackets are on the heavy side.

Click on the photos with the number 1 in the name for the smaller size, quicker loading photo. The Photo's without the 1 will show a lot more detail.

Buffalo_Russet/ (http://www.turbonet.biz/Ebay/Buffalo_Russet/)

Buffalo_Seal/ (http://www.turbonet.biz/Ebay/Buffalo_Seal/)


Aero's original Smooth Horse Jackets from 5-6 years ago were very supple Jackets.

I'm a Goat guy usually, unless I am seeking the Snob appeal of the Equine.

Asienizen
01-04-2013, 10:59 PM
That looks pretty similar. The hide I'm referring to was also more of a matte finish. It's the same as what JLStorm just chose for his new jacket, only not as thick. Have you managed to scratch your buffalo hide jacket yet?

I have not had any deep scores on my buffalo hide, but there are a number of surface marks. The sort of marking you get on suede where it changes the lay of the fibers. I haven't been able to rub them out yet, but I haven't really tried too hard.

From my own personal observation - I'd say the surface of my horse jacket scuffs less readily than the buffalo. The marks do give it character though.

HoosierDaddy
01-04-2013, 11:12 PM
Here's My Aero A2 in Seal WaterBuffalo from about six years ago.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c36/vcruiser/100_0428.jpg

No longer offered.
HD

thor
01-05-2013, 06:05 AM
Yes, that Aero buffalo was some amazing stuff! Very thick and rugged and extremely grainy. I regret selling my Aero seal buffalo A-2 afew years ago :-(

les_garten
01-05-2013, 09:04 AM
Yes, that Aero buffalo was some amazing stuff! Very thick and rugged and extremely grainy. I regret selling my Aero seal buffalo A-2 afew years ago :-(

I don't suppose you are a 48?

Like the one I have on Fleabay?

;)

ForestForTheTrees
01-05-2013, 01:14 PM
HD, that seal water buffalo hide has a lot of character. It certainly looks tough as nails.

thor
01-06-2013, 06:20 AM
I don't suppose you are a 48?

Like the one I have on Fleabay?

;)

I saw the listing on the Bay. Sadly it's not my size :-(
Good luck. I'm sure someone will grab it!

les_garten
01-06-2013, 09:01 AM
That looks like a LW that you are wearing in your Avatar, ehhh?

thor
01-06-2013, 03:32 PM
That looks like a LW that you are wearing in your Avatar, ehhh?

Yes sir you are correct. It's my Christmas present to myself, a brand new LW russet HH A-2 in size 46 long. Lovin' it!!!!

les_garten
01-06-2013, 04:22 PM
Yes sir you are correct. It's my Christmas present to myself, a brand new LW russet HH A-2 in size 46 long. Lovin' it!!!!

I have the exact same Jacket in a 46 as well.

Grayland
01-06-2013, 04:46 PM
Yes sir you are correct. It's my Christmas present to myself, a brand new LW russet HH A-2 in size 46 long. Lovin' it!!!!

Well geez, that's what I got you for Christmas. I'll just have to return it.

thor
01-06-2013, 05:05 PM
Well geez, that's what I got you for Christmas. I'll just have to return it.

Lol! Or just keep it for yourself! I'm sure you'll enjoy it :-D

Boyo
01-06-2013, 07:58 PM
Regarding horsehide, is there a consensus about where the best hides come from? I am aware of Horween in the USA, and I have heard good things about Italian tanning. I recently came across a German jacket maker "Noble House" that uses Argentinian horse hide. Does any one have any thoughts or experience with either Argentinian horse hide or Noble House leather jackets?.

http://www.noble-house.eu/catalog/index.php

dr.velociraptor
01-07-2013, 06:09 AM
It's more rare and unique than cowhide at this point in history would probably be the only reason. Put cowhide and horsehide together and 99 people out of 100 couldn't tell the difference.

Capesofwrath
01-07-2013, 08:12 AM
Not sure about the formalities on this site, but as a new member hello.

I think horsehide become a fetish in the last decade or so, and now people want it because everybody else does. Years ago I had a Lewis Leathers horsehide bike jacket which served a purpose, because the hide did save mine once at least. But for a day to day jacket I prefer steer now, and as was said above it's very hard to tell the hides apart and steer doesn't need to be broken in the way that horse does.

I've just ordered one of the last Aero ready made A2s for immediate delivery that are on their site at present, and I should get it tomorrow I hope. That's in russet steer. I've had a few Aero jackets over the years, mostly horsehide, and a Highwayman I bought four years ago is only now getting to be nicely broken in with the amount of wear I give it.

The next time I feel masochistic enough to think of buying a horsehide jacket again I'll pay someone to beat me up instead.

thor
01-07-2013, 08:33 AM
Not sure about the formalities on this site, but as a new member hello.

I think horsehide become a fetish in the last decade or so, and now people want it because everybody else does. Years ago I had a Lewis Leathers horsehide bike jacket which served a purpose, because the hide did save mine once at least. But for a day to day jacket I prefer steer now, and as was said above it's very hard to tell the hides apart and steer doesn't need to be broken in the way that horse does.

I've just ordered one of the last Aero ready made A2s for immediate delivery that are on their site at present, and I should get it tomorrow I hope. That's in russet steer. I've had a few Aero jackets over the years, mostly horsehide, and a Highwayman I bought four years ago is only now getting to be nicely broken in with the amount of wear I give it.

The next time I feel masochistic enough to think of buying a horsehide jacket again I'll pay someone to beat me up instead.

I think that's the main problem with breaking in a new HH jacket, namely wearing it often enough to soften up the hide. Most guys have more then one leather jacket and rotate their assorted jackets. If you look at pics of the WWII pilots in their beautifully broken in HH A-2's, we must remember that they wore them EVERYDAY, for long hours at a time and in all kinds of weather conditions. If you do the same thing today, you'll get a wonderfully broken in jacket in a relatively short time.

Capesofwrath
01-07-2013, 08:54 AM
I think that's the main problem with breaking in a new HH jacket, namely wearing it often enough to soften up the hide. Most guys have more then one leather jacket and rotate their assorted jackets. If you look at pics of the WWII pilots in their beautifully broken in HH A-2's, we must remember that they wore them EVERYDAY, for long hours at a time and in all kinds of weather conditions. If you do the same thing today, you'll get a wonderfully broken in jacket in a relatively short time.

Yes I agree. But they were wearing the jackets as part of their uniform so did wear them all the time. I don't want to wear the same jacket every day like I did when young. Of course people do wear them around the house to break them in, we've all done it; and it isn't exactly comfortable trying to sit on a sofa with a new FQHH Barnstormer on that is still standing up when you're sitting down...

gtdean48
01-07-2013, 09:03 AM
... If you do the same thing today, you'll get a wonderfully broken in jacket in a relatively short time.

With an Alpaca lining, I can't wear mine every day but I do wear it every day the temperature is low enough that I can...not sure it will take a "relatively short time" for me but then again it is relative, right? ;)

thor
01-07-2013, 09:10 AM
With an Alpaca lining, I can't wear mine every day but I do wear it every day the temperature is low enough that I can...not sure it will take a "relatively short time" for me but then again it is relative, right? ;)

Right! ;-)

Seb Lucas
01-07-2013, 01:08 PM
I think that's the main problem with breaking in a new HH jacket, namely wearing it often enough to soften up the hide. Most guys have more then one leather jacket and rotate their assorted jackets. If you look at pics of the WWII pilots in their beautifully broken in HH A-2's, we must remember that they wore them EVERYDAY, for long hours at a time and in all kinds of weather conditions. If you do the same thing today, you'll get a wonderfully broken in jacket in a relatively short time..

Also vintage HH was thinner than the 3 oz hide we see these days. Makes a huge difference to the comfort and breaking in.

Fanch
01-07-2013, 03:37 PM
.

Also vintage HH was thinner than the 3 oz hide we see these days. Makes a huge difference to the comfort and breaking in.

My vintage black FQHH HWM is plenty thick!:D

2jakes
01-07-2013, 07:44 PM
Yes I agree. But they were wearing the jackets as part of their uniform so did wear them all the time. I don't want to wear the same jacket every day like I did when young. Of course people do wear them around the house to break them in, we've all done it; and it isn't exactly comfortable trying to sit on a sofa with a new FQHH Barnstormer on that is still standing up when you're sitting down...

I can relate to what you say about wearing it every day . What I do is place it on the car seat when driving , or
lay it on my favorite arm chair & sit on it & even under the pillow at night. My wife thinks it funny..but I have a real
nice worn jacket in no time.
Cheers !
http://i48.tinypic.com/264o0o9.jpg

Boyo
01-07-2013, 07:50 PM
Happiness is a warm (horse hide) blanket!

B-24J
01-07-2013, 08:41 PM
I can relate to what you say about wearing it every day . What I do is place it on the car seat when driving , or
lay it on my favorite arm chair & sit on it & even under the pillow at night. My wife thinks it funny..but I have a real
nice worn jacket in no time.
Cheers !
http://i48.tinypic.com/264o0o9.jpg

This reminded me of when my Dad reminisced about taking the grommet out from the brim of his cap and sleeping with the cap under the mattress. This gave his "crusher" that dashing look which was then worn cocked to one side.

John

Seb Lucas
01-07-2013, 08:53 PM
My vintage black FQHH HWM is plenty thick!:D

And some were. You're right. A2's esp were less thick.

LoveMyHats2
01-07-2013, 09:48 PM
I am far from a leather expert, have a few nice jackets in cow hide and one in deer. From what indications I have had explained to me by a leather crafter, the real difference between one type of leather and another is the tightness of the pores of the leather itself. Example, bull hide has a tighter "pore" than regular cow hide. Deer hide is from my experience a softer less tight "pore", however deer hide normally tends to get dirty quicker and has to be "babied" more to help keep it clean. Cleaning deer hide is not easy and some stains will not clean out of it. I have one A2 jacket that is nice smooth and clean, although it is vintage, it was well kept, does not have that worn to hell and back look that many admire, still looks relatively new. I actually hope to keep it looking new.

rocketeer
01-07-2013, 10:20 PM
I find it mildly amusing to see secondhand jackets for sale with the descsription, 'Like new' 'Never abused' 'Mint condition' etc, 'The fleece is as new' when jacket is also advertised in a similar manner "worn but carefully looked after' and such.
Have these people bought something they did not like, thought more about it's re-sale value than enjoyed wearing the thing?
I have a Rough Wear Eastman B3 that is now full of bald spots simply through wearing it in a natural way. Yes it's over 10 years old and clean but I would probably struggle to get 50% of it's original retail value if I sold it.
With me I have never really tried to break in a jacket other than wear it whenever I can, it tends to look more natural.
J

Capesofwrath
01-08-2013, 03:32 AM
I can relate to what you say about wearing it every day . What I do is place it on the car seat when driving , or
lay it on my favorite arm chair & sit on it & even under the pillow at night. My wife thinks it funny..but I have a real
nice worn jacket in no time.
Cheers !
http://i48.tinypic.com/264o0o9.jpg

Yes that's what I did with the Barnstormer in the end. Just sat on it for a week which softened it and made it wearable.

rocketeer:
It's not that easy to break in a coat or jacket by just wearing it naturally if you have a few already and you can't wear it to work. Particularly if the winter's mild, the coat was originally designed for flying in open cockpits, and you've sold the Sopwith Camel.

You do look like a pillock walking around in a brand new stiff HH coat that looks as if it's taking you for a walk though.

schitzo
01-08-2013, 04:09 AM
I just can't resist jumping in here

If you already have several leather jackets then why buy another one in FQHH?

For me a FQHH jacket is not such a big deal to 'break'. Just wet the collar and then wear it every day for a few hours for about a month. Job done.

If you don't have time to do that then you are just gonna lumber yourself with an uncomfortable, unsightly and expensive burden

mexl916
01-08-2013, 04:33 AM
I've received three leather samples from Aero:
- brown heavy steer
- brown FQHH
- vintage brown FQHH

From the samples I got it seems that steer is much softer and more pliable and that its color gets lighter when stretched (which I really like; the both horses do not behave this way). Is this a general property of steer or is it just simple batch dependent?

rocketeer
01-08-2013, 08:56 AM
Yes that's what I did with the Barnstormer in the end. Just sat on it for a week which softened it and made it wearable.

rocketeer:
It's not that easy to break in a coat or jacket by just wearing it naturally if you have a few already and you can't wear it to work. Particularly if the winter's mild, the coat was originally designed for flying in open cockpits, and you've sold the Sopwith Camel.

You do look like a pillock walking around in a brand new stiff HH coat that looks as if it's taking you for a walk though.
Well my jackets all look ok without any kind of break in procedure. I would just advise wearing as often as possible. Yes Horsey jackets take a bit of time but that's how I broke all my jackets, just wearing them. Those fancy worn in leathers Eastman sells don't really look natural up close but they(Eastman) dont sell FQHH.
Have a look on the Aero site, there are tips on how to break in a new jacket. Looking a pillock is a very personal thing, I have never had any negative remarks about my brand new jackets so I must guess I look 'cool'
Anyway I never had a Sopwith Camel, I had a Funfdekker Fokker, Revell made a model of it haha.

Capesofwrath
01-08-2013, 10:23 AM
I just can't resist jumping in here

If you already have several leather jackets then why buy another one in FQHH?

For me a FQHH jacket is not such a big deal to 'break'. Just wet the collar and then wear it every day for a few hours for about a month. Job done.

If you don't have time to do that then you are just gonna lumber yourself with an uncomfortable, unsightly and expensive burden

My original point was that I wasn't going to buy another HH jacket, and was going to stick to steer in future. I like HH but for me and my lifestyle it makes no sense having too many of them when they take so long to break in; and like I said above I can't wear them every day to do it.

rocketeer.

Well obviously I have looked at their site since I've bought stuff from them for years.[huh]

I've never seen anyone looking cool in a brand new HH jacket though. That's why people kick em around for a bit first.

rocketeer
01-08-2013, 12:42 PM
Oh dear oh dear! I should have got this along time ago but trying to be a little light hearted about things this serious does not work on the Fedora Lounge.
I bought a brand new FQHH Highwayman years ago, rather than go around walking about with a soggy neck(wetting the collar) I just wore my jacket and not long after I went to work in it and someone said to me "Thats the best looking leather jacket I have ever seen". Same with a black one I bought 6 years back. Nicely worn in now.
As to buying stuff from Aero, well I have been a customer since 1981 and also have a steer Barnstormer which I went to France on a booze cruise and got a very favourable comment in a French gentlemans store, and I had only had it a week.
At a Rock n Roll weekender, I once witnessed a guy towing a new bike jacket behind his motorcycle to give it that worn in look, in the end it looked like a jacket that had been towed behind a motorcycle, without the kudos of having come off the bike at 80 and survived. A couple of years later a similar incident involving a brand new Schott Perfecto. The jacket owner had cars run over it to give it a bit of patina. One cheeky fellow in a 1957 Ford Fairlane decided to wheelspin over said jacket. Result? A new looking jacket that looked like it had been run over by a car, complete with one arm three quarters detatched:eusa_clap
So, when you see me in my un broken in horsey Teamster please point and laugh, I probably wont give a sh*t as in a few short weeks I know I will look super cool. Probably so cool I would wish I had the sheerling lining option.
Johnny Tee

Sloan1874
01-08-2013, 03:04 PM
I'm just short of a month into breaking my LHB, and it's coming on a treat all ready. The arms are nice and flexible and have started taking on lovely subtle copper tone under the brown, while the shoulders have nice graded tone. The body is still slightly stiff, but it doesn't worry me, because the jacket looks great any way. Honestly, part of me wanted to stay the same colour and lustre when I put it on, and I will admit that I did quail slightly when I got the first few scratches and bumps, but they soon fade into the overall patina. As far as other people are concerned, my office have all admired the jacket - I caught one of them smelling it today! - and I've never felt as if I looked as if I'm wearing a suitcase or whatever. I'll just keep wearing it, day in, day out, whenever possible, and there's half of winter and the whole of spring to go (and let's not forget a Scottish summer!) so plenty of time to get it looking nice and flexible,

wdw
01-08-2013, 03:18 PM
when you see me in my un broken in horsey Teamster

The Teamster seems to be picking up in popularity, which is good as it's my favourite. Will we be seeing pics? No two seem to look the same on people, strangely.


let's not forget a Scottish summer!

I'm sure you're not knocking our Scottish summers any more. Since I got my first Aero in May, almost literally the only days I've not worn one were during my two week summer hol in the Med (and Christmas Day).

Capesofwrath
01-08-2013, 03:28 PM
:D
Oh dear oh dear! I should have got this along time ago but trying to be a little light hearted about things this serious does not work on the Fedora Lounge.
I bought a brand new FQHH Highwayman years ago, rather than go around walking about with a soggy neck(wetting the collar) I just wore my jacket and not long after I went to work in it and someone said to me "Thats the best looking leather jacket I have ever seen". Same with a black one I bought 6 years back. Nicely worn in now.
As to buying stuff from Aero, well I have been a customer since 1981 and also have a steer Barnstormer which I went to France on a booze cruise and got a very favourable comment in a French gentlemans store, and I had only had it a week.
At a Rock n Roll weekender, I once witnessed a guy towing a new bike jacket behind his motorcycle to give it that worn in look, in the end it looked like a jacket that had been towed behind a motorcycle, without the kudos of having come off the bike at 80 and survived. A couple of years later a similar incident involving a brand new Schott Perfecto. The jacket owner had cars run over it to give it a bit of patina. One cheeky fellow in a 1957 Ford Fairlane decided to wheelspin over said jacket. Result? A new looking jacket that looked like it had been run over by a car, complete with one arm three quarters detatched:eusa_clap
So, when you see me in my un broken in horsey Teamster please point and laugh, I probably wont give a sh*t as in a few short weeks I know I will look super cool. Probably so cool I would wish I had the sheerling lining option.
Johnny Tee

Seem to have touched a nerve there....:D

Sloan1874
01-08-2013, 03:46 PM
sure you're not knocking our Scottish summers any more. Since I got my first Aero in May, almost literally the only days I've not worn one were during my two week summer hol in the Med (and Christmas Day).

After last year, I fear that we no longer have summer, just a longer spring and an early autumn... I'm hoping for maybe a lighter hide Aero just in case we actually get a few days of sun. And of course then there's the Irvin (or perhaps a Thunder Bay) I've penciled in for those really cold days. I have problem. I know. Help.

rocketeer
01-08-2013, 10:22 PM
The Teamster seems to be picking up in popularity, which is good as it's my favourite. Will we be seeing pics? No two seem to look the same on people, strangely.

Yes I'll probably stick a few on here someday, gotta think of a good prop for the pics though.

:D

Seem to have touched a nerve there....:D
Not really, just some people take wearing a leather jacket a bit more seriously than I do.
At the moment I am breaking in my new Suzuki T shirt as I sit here writing before work:cool:


I'm just short of a month into breaking my LHB, and it's coming on a treat all ready. The arms are nice and flexible and have started taking on lovely subtle copper tone under the brown, while the shoulders have nice graded tone. The body is still slightly stiff, but it doesn't worry me, because the jacket looks great any way. Honestly, part of me wanted to stay the same colour and lustre when I put it on, and I will admit that I did quail slightly when I got the first few scratches and bumps, but they soon fade into the overall patina. As far as other people are concerned, my office have all admired the jacket - I caught one of them smelling it today! - and I've never felt as if I looked as if I'm wearing a suitcase or whatever. I'll just keep wearing it, day in, day out, whenever possible, and there's half of winter and the whole of spring to go (and let's not forget a Scottish summer!) so plenty of time to get it looking nice and flexible,
:cool: Super cool:cool:

tommygun
01-11-2013, 01:27 PM
Yes I agree. But they were wearing the jackets as part of their uniform so did wear them all the time. I don't want to wear the same jacket every day like I did when young. Of course people do wear them around the house to break them in, we've all done it; and it isn't exactly comfortable trying to sit on a sofa with a new FQHH Barnstormer on that is still standing up when you're sitting down... Yes we have!!! good point

Sloan1874
01-11-2013, 01:44 PM
I stick my HH jacket on, jump in the car and turn the seat heating up. It helps soften the leather nicely by the time I get out, and it retains the heat too, so it stays toasty!

Baron Kurtz
01-11-2013, 01:47 PM
You do look like a pillock walking around in a brand new stiff HH coat that looks as if it's taking you for a walk though.

Surely the only person who looks a pillock is the person in a badly fitting jacket, whether worn in or brand new. Typically these are too large and/or too long. The phenotype is independent of hide variety and often involves strutting or - more and more frequent these days - limping.

smoz
01-11-2013, 02:48 PM
After last year, I fear that we no longer have summer, just a longer spring and an early autumn... I'm hoping for maybe a lighter hide Aero just in case we actually get a few days of sun. And of course then there's the Irvin (or perhaps a Thunder Bay) I've penciled in for those really cold days. I have problem. I know. Help.

Billy Connolly said that there are two seasons in Scotland: June and winter.

Sloan1874
01-11-2013, 03:06 PM
Sadly, he wan't joking when he said that.

hpalapdog
01-15-2013, 05:13 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if mechanically separated meat slurry from eastern Europe and South America contains horse. This finds it's way into cheap pasties etc. here.

I seem to remember my parents paying the knackers man for removal for my old childhood pony http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/m444uk/cry-anim.gif http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/m444uk/cry-anim.gif http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/m444uk/cry-anim.gif

As I said, cheap products for human consumption can contain unlabelled horse...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9804632/Tesco-beef-burgers-found-to-contain-29-horse-meat.html

Fanch
01-15-2013, 06:48 PM
Here is a bit of interesting information regarding horsehide.
http://www.ehow.com/about_5587595_do-leather-jackets-out-horsehide_.html

Cowhide vs. Horsehide
Horsehide jackets are fairly high-maintenance; they must be oiled or waxed about once a month, which is another reason the majority of leather jackets seen in stores across America are cowhide.

Since it's on the internet, it must be true! ;) :D

Justhandguns
01-16-2013, 02:58 AM
Here is a bit of interesting information regarding horsehide.
http://www.ehow.com/about_5587595_do-leather-jackets-out-horsehide_.html

Cowhide vs. Horsehide
Horsehide jackets are fairly high-maintenance; they must be oiled or waxed about once a month, which is another reason the majority of leather jackets seen in stores across America are cowhide.

Since it's on the internet, it must be true! ;) :D

But it also says :

"Horsehide jackets tend to be more durable than cowhide but are much harder to break in. Through the tanning process, horsehide takes on a greater thickness than cowhide and can take longer to mold to your body. The leather's thickness protects the body better than cowhide does, which is why so many motorcycle riders choose horsehide instead of cowhide leather."

How can it be more durable but high maintenance ? I wonder? And only in America.... :confused:

thor
01-16-2013, 12:29 PM
But it also says :

"Horsehide jackets tend to be more durable than cowhide but are much harder to break in. Through the tanning process, horsehide takes on a greater thickness than cowhide and can take longer to mold to your body. The leather's thickness protects the body better than cowhide does, which is why so many motorcycle riders choose horsehide instead of cowhide leather."

How can it be more durable but high maintenance ? I wonder? And only in America.... :confused:

"More durable but high maintenance"....sounds a lot like marriage! 😃😃😃

rocketeer
01-16-2013, 01:27 PM
But it also says :

"Horsehide jackets tend to be more durable than cowhide but are much harder to break in. Through the tanning process, horsehide takes on a greater thickness than cowhide and can take longer to mold to your body. The leather's thickness protects the body better than cowhide does, which is why so many motorcycle riders choose horsehide instead of cowhide leather."

How can it be more durable but high maintenance ? I wonder? And only in America.... :confused:
As far as abrasion resistance goes I believe(but I may be wrong as I cant recall where I read this), that Goat skin is better than Horse for motorcycle leathers but the best on the abrasion resistance scale is Kangaroo hide. Many of what non motorcyclists like to call 'Power Ranger' type race suits are made from good old Skippy due to the said durability but also lightness. Horse is great for style and wears extremely well but is very heavy. You will never see a TT rider wearing a 1piece FQHorse race suit.
Johnny Tee

strokes1251
02-07-2013, 06:45 PM
I didnt want to start a new thread so I looked up this one and was just wandering is "Poney skin" horsehide? I did not spell it wrong just see the pic. The jacket is not mine but I have a similar one from the same maker and was just curious, hopefully someone can answer this thanks in advance :D The picture was taken off a thread on here but the person hasn't used his profile inf forever. :) http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?39139-The-dirty-rotten-ones-!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/charlie48horlogerie/DSCN7646.jpg

fukigen
02-08-2013, 06:34 AM
Here is a bit of interesting information regarding horsehide.
http://www.ehow.com/about_5587595_do-leather-jackets-out-horsehide_.html


I just read the article... sorry for the off-topic, but is it really illegal to eat horse meat in the US?
didn't know about it. too bad, horse steak is delicious...

Worf
02-08-2013, 10:05 AM
"More durable but high maintenance"....sounds a lot like marriage! ������

That sir is just plain wrong!!!! True but wrong!!! LOL! Good one.

Worf

Worf
02-08-2013, 10:09 AM
I just read the article... sorry for the off-topic, but is it really illegal to eat horse meat in the US?
didn't know about it. too bad, horse steak is delicious...

Yepper... can't get it here, by law. Smeck.. slobber... burp!

Worf

rocketeer
02-08-2013, 10:16 AM
I just read the article... sorry for the off-topic, but is it really illegal to eat horse meat in the US?
didn't know about it. too bad, horse steak is delicious...
Anyone know WHY it is illegal to eat horse meat in the USA? Is there some kind of 'Mad horse disease' like we had with cows?
Or is it just sentimental sh*te?
John

HoosierDaddy
02-08-2013, 10:18 AM
Yepper... can't get it here, by law. Smeck.. slobber... burp!

Worf

My gawd man...quit chewin on your Aero..!!
HD

HoosierDaddy
02-08-2013, 10:22 AM
Anyone know WHY it is illegal to eat horse meat in the USA? Is there some kind of 'Mad horse disease' like we had with cows?
Or is it just sentimental sh*te?
John

I think it might be for the same reason we don't eat cat or dog..
and that is because........................

les_garten
02-08-2013, 10:36 AM
Anyone know WHY it is illegal to eat horse meat in the USA? Is there some kind of 'Mad horse disease' like we had with cows?
Or is it just sentimental sh*te?
John

Dude, you can't eat Flicka or Flipper, everyone knows that!

We make movies, that's why, soon we'll all be Tofu eaters, the land of the Tofu eaters!

We make some Horse Movies(Westerns), no more eatin' Horsies!
Japan eats Dolphin and absolutely hates them as Vermin, we got Flipper!
Go to Africa and see if those folks Love Chimps, Chimps are killers. We got Cheetah and Bonzo!

Dr H
02-08-2013, 11:24 AM
Anyone know WHY it is illegal to eat horse meat in the USA? Is there some kind of 'Mad horse disease' like we had with cows?
Or is it just sentimental sh*te?
John

Not sentimentality. Phenylbutazone (used as an analgesic in horses) is reported to cause aplastic anaemia in humans.

les_garten
02-08-2013, 12:53 PM
Not sentimentality. Phenylbutazone (used as an analgesic in horses) is reported to cause aplastic anaemia in humans.

I think if you are raising horses for food you don't give a Flip about their arthritis.

Capesofwrath
02-08-2013, 02:59 PM
There was a bucher who sold really good horse meat where I lived in the sixties. I bought steaks a few times and they were really good. A bit like a cross between beef and venison.

It's just misplaced sentimentality. I like horses but they are slaughtered for pet food in thousands. There is an oversupply and in hard times they cost a lot to look after properly too. A lot of people who want to move on the kids outgrown pony don't like to enquire too deeply as to what the dealer they sell it to is going to do with it; and if it's cheap and the dealer promises it'll go to a good home it will more than likely end up as pet food.

Dr H
02-08-2013, 03:12 PM
The point is that horses have found their way into the UK food chain recently through unscrupulous suppliers.
There have been several scandals recently where 'processed beef' has contained significant amounts (and most recently 100%) horsemeat.
These horses are not raised for food - their origin (and their medical history) is entirely unknown.
So...if you were unlucky enough to have bought/consumed some of these products you'd better give a flip (or something stronger) about their arthritis...

les_garten
02-08-2013, 03:25 PM
The point is that horses have found their way into the UK food chain recently through unscrupulous suppliers.
There have been several scandals recently where 'processed beef' has contained significant amounts (and most recently 100%) horsemeat.
These horses are not raised for food - their origin (and their medical history) is entirely unknown.
So...if you were unlucky enough to have bought/consumed some of these products you'd better give a flip (or something stronger) about their arthritis...

Clutching at Straws.

It all would come down to prevalence.

And the original question was why Horse Consumption was dropped in the US. It had nothing to do with Horseies hanging out chomping on Advil...

ButteMT61
02-08-2013, 03:35 PM
Clutching at Straws.It all would come down to prevalence.And the original question was why Horse Consumption was dropped in the US. It had nothing to do with Horseies hanging out chomping on Advil... And here I thought it was about why people like horse hide.

Sloan1874
02-08-2013, 03:41 PM
Beyond the health implications, it's turned into a question of trust. If I sold you something, told you it's one thing, and then later on you find out not only was it something else (possibly inferior) but that there were potential health implications in too, I'd be furious - barring the health bit, does this not sound a little familiar?
Of course, there are those who say that if you pay the lowest price possible for a food product, then you shouldn't surprised when something like this turns up. Conversely, trade descriptions legislation would dictate that if I sell you something I describe as beef lasagne, but that up to 100 per cent of the meat contained in it once sported a mane and tail, well, you're going to have a lot of explaining to do, aren't you...

ButteMT61
02-08-2013, 03:53 PM
So, let me get things straight. Aero sold steerhide as horsehide. Now, someone is selling horse meat as steer meat? Man, I going to get some chicken nuggets...

Dr H
02-08-2013, 03:56 PM
What? You're still eating 'chicken' nuggets? After all that hoo ha about hedgehog...? ;-)

ButteMT61
02-08-2013, 03:58 PM
What? You're still eating 'chicken' nuggets? After all that hoo ha about hedgehog...? ;-) Just got chastised by my granddaughter. The chickens apparently "heard me" from out back. :)

Dr H
02-08-2013, 04:02 PM
Are you sure those are chickens you're keeping? They sound mighty bright....or paranoid...

Worf
02-08-2013, 04:22 PM
My gawd man...quit chewin on your Aero..!!
HD

SPEW!!!! Ouch.... that was a good one. Cut from ambush!!!!!! Urrrrrgh! Ye got me......

Worf

rocketeer
02-09-2013, 01:48 AM
In WWII my mother ate (and her father sold) horse meat and whale meat. They were lucky being butchers in those times of rationing.
There were some nice burgers dong the rounds in the 1980s too, think Shergar! Quality meat I reckon;) I did try a horse burger in France some years back, it was a speciality in that area[Alsace]. The burger bar even had a great light up plastic horses head outside.
As for Chimps! An African guy at my works once had a taste for 'Bush meat', he told me it's ok but hard to get over here in the UK. I think he meant illegal haha.
Flipper? Do dolphin steaks fit on the plate like swordfish slices or too big?
When you are hungry you would eat anything I reckon, just ask the Donners and the Reeds back in 1846, Horses, cattle, Indian scouts(the Native Americans, not the motorcycles) and even granny.
JohnnyTeeeee

ButteMT61
02-09-2013, 01:51 AM
Buffalo burgers are my favorite. Surprisingly, Fuddruckers has a good one.

ForestForTheTrees
02-09-2013, 07:21 AM
As to the original, original question:
I'm a bit perplexed that horsehide has developed the mystique that it has around here. I used to think that some folks were drawn to horsehide because of the grain of the product, but the whole Aero situation has shown that the two hide types are practically indistinguishable from one another when the final product is examined. For those that have owned both quality steerhide and horsehide and have developed a preference for horsehide, I'd be interested to know what is it about the horsehide that you prefer? Did you develop this preference over time?

I'm every bit as curious now after receiving and living with my FQHH jacket as I was before when I created this thread. I'll have to go back and re-read through the early part of this thread to find some of the more relevant answers. In the end, it seems our answers are as different from one another as we are as individuals.

Capesofwrath
02-09-2013, 09:24 AM
I got a sample of Aero's Horween 4oz steer the other day and it is a nice looking leather. It would make a really good pair of boots....

rocketeer
02-09-2013, 10:12 AM
As to the original, original question:

I'm every bit as curious now after receiving and living with my FQHH jacket as I was before when I created this thread. I'll have to go back and re-read through the early part of this thread to find some of the more relevant answers. In the end, it seems our answers are as different from one another as we are as individuals.

:cool:

les_garten
02-09-2013, 10:56 AM
As to the original, original question:

I'm every bit as curious now after receiving and living with my FQHH jacket as I was before when I created this thread. I'll have to go back and re-read through the early part of this thread to find some of the more relevant answers. In the end, it seems our answers are as different from one another as we are as individuals.

It's pretty clear really...

We want to wear Horses, don't want to eat them.

Horses helped tame the west, horses were a Cowboys best friend when he was out on the prairie. Horses saved the Cowboys from the Indians. Horses tried to save the Indians from the Cowboys. There is a mystique to the Horse. We talk to our Horses. Horses talk back to us. Horses do tricks, and Horses Love us! Few of us want to talk to our cows. We like to eat them, and wear them, but no Mystique to them. I don't think Cows Loves us, and the only trick I know that they do is that gore the Matador up the keester trick. Which is a pretty Good Trick, but it ain't Love.

We want Horsehide because we want the Jacket that can develop that 1000 yard stare. The Jacket that says Been there, done that, and got the scars to prove it.

If you look at old Langlitz Columbia or Buco Jackets, the ones with the kewl grain are Horse for the "most" part. Horse seems to get the big creases and little creases right.

At least this is the "idea" that sells the Jacket. Horse is relatively rare, rarity is always a desirable trait in just about everything, unless it's a girlfriend with 3 eyes and Lop ears!

There's a certain snob appeal or bragging right that goes with Horsehide. Cowhide is very pedestrian, you can buy it in a Mall after all.

But mainly when you peruse Rin Tanaka's books and see those old Horse Jackets with that "Look", you want some Horsehide on your back, PETA be damned!

Fanch
02-09-2013, 11:21 AM
That was a very interesting post. :thumb:

Fletch
02-09-2013, 11:46 AM
America is mystique backed up with action.

les_garten
02-09-2013, 12:14 PM
America is mystique backed up with action.

And a Fork on occasion!

HoosierDaddy
02-09-2013, 12:24 PM
The only reason I prefer horse in a utility jacket or more specifically Aero/Horween regular FQHH is for the charactor it for sure developes as it ages. Quite unique and excellant for streetwear..for me.
When I ride the Harley I prefer something more relaxed and comfortable for the riding position on long rides which is usually lighter weight steer or HH in a MC jacket.
HD

ForestForTheTrees
02-09-2013, 12:35 PM
The only reason I prefer horse in a utility jacket or more specifically Aero/Horween regular FQHH is for the charactor it for sure developes as it ages. Quite unique and excellant for streetwear..for me.

This train of thought was more in line with my expectations a while back. My two jackets certainly look worlds apart from one another: one horsehide and one steerhide, both Horween CXL. However after the the incident last year where it turned out that many folks couldn't tell the difference between horsehide and steerhide, I began to question this logic or assumption on my part. Aside from the weight of the hide, I'm not really sure what to think any more. Still it fascinates me due to the reputation that horsehide has developed over the years.

HoosierDaddy
02-09-2013, 01:03 PM
This train of thought was more in line with my expectations a while back. My two jackets certainly look worlds apart from one another: one horsehide and one steerhide, both Horween CXL. However after the the incident last year where it turned out that many folks couldn't tell the difference between horsehide and steerhide, I began to question this logic or assumption on my part. Aside from the weight of the hide, I'm not really sure what to think any more. Still it fascinates me due to the reputation that horsehide has developed over the years.

Well my first Aero(2001 Highwayman) is definately Horween's FQHH. My newer Boolegger and Stuart are labeled as such. They are breaking in with the same charactoristics as my Highwayman. The two Aero HBs labeled 'steer' that I also own have quite different graining and appearance. If it would turn out that one of my newer HH Aeros is really steer..so what! If it's breaking in just like my Aero Horween FQHH jackets..then..makes absolutely no difference to me. If somehow the two different hides now more recently resemble each other that much..so be it! That is the look I prefer..whatever the hide.
HD

ForestForTheTrees
02-09-2013, 02:37 PM
If somehow the two different hides now more recently resemble each other that much..so be it! That is the look I prefer..whatever the hide.
HD

Hey HD, now this logic I can totally follow.

HoosierDaddy
02-09-2013, 02:53 PM
FFTT
I should have added that if a new jacket hide labeled HH was breaking in differently than FQHH..I would definately contact Aero with no hesitation.
HD

hpalapdog
02-09-2013, 03:37 PM
It's pretty clear really...

We want to wear Horses, don't want to eat them.



I doubt you have a choice. Them pesky horses get everywhere and are the meat of er...default.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/aforrester/article-2275565-176E089F000005DC-75.jpg

les_garten
02-09-2013, 03:57 PM
I doubt you have a choice. Them pesky horses get everywhere and are the meat of er...default.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/aforrester/article-2275565-176E089F000005DC-75.jpg

You're right, I shouldn't have included you Brits in that statement!

That does look tasty though...

Fletch
02-09-2013, 03:58 PM
I'd eat horse. Why not? I wear horse.

My parents encountered a good bit of steak cheval when doing France on $5 a day in the 60s. They said it was delicious, tho a touch more gamey than beef. More towards venison.

hpalapdog
02-09-2013, 04:09 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if processed meat from Mexico contains default.

BTW. US produced meat is banned in the EU and elsewhere because it contains growth hormones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_hormone_controversy

nick123
08-20-2014, 08:35 PM
This stuff is fascinating. Other than it feeling softer out of the box, I can't quite put my finger on why I prefer the steer, considering how so many prefer horse. Maybe it's the matter finish of the Chromexcel compared to the horse? Really great thread resurrected from the dead.

Edward
08-21-2014, 10:56 AM
As for Chimps! An African guy at my works once had a taste for 'Bush meat', he told me it's ok but hard to get over here in the UK. I think he meant illegal haha.

Yes, Bushmeat is illegal in the UK. There was a spate of prosecutions in London about a decade ago - all involving people round Brixton, as I recall. I think one or two of them were selling it labelled as something more conventional, while others were selling it underground, for what it was. I'm sure sentimentality enters into it, though really I suspect regualtion is more to do with elf and safety considerations. Specifically, because there's no significant market for chimp and such here, there's just not the industry to ensure it's properly reared, slaughtered and transported.


I'd eat horse. Why not? I wear horse.

My parents encountered a good bit of steak cheval when doing France on $5 a day in the 60s. They said it was delicious, tho a touch more gamey than beef. More towards venison.

I haven't consciously eaten horse, but it's highly likely I've had it in Beijing. I've eaten donkey there on a number of occasions - and no, it doesn't taste like ass. Very similar to roast beef, actually, though with a softer, less fibrous texture. for one of the perceived less "noble" beasts, donkey tastes very nice. I'd be open to trying it for a jacket hide...

Harp
08-21-2014, 11:06 AM
I haven't consciously eaten horse, but it's highly likely I've had it in Beijing. I've eaten donkey there on a number of occasions -
and no, it doesn't taste like ass...



Hong Kong vendors offered monkey brain fried like a hamburger; supposedly an aphrodesiac.
...but there's nothing like a good piece of ass. ;)

bn1966
08-21-2014, 01:27 PM
Would appear 'Bush Meat' consumption is closely connected with the Ebola virus infecting humans, as for horse meat!!!...well it looks like many of us Brits have been potentially eating it without realizing.....caused quite a scandal!...Love the horse on my Roughwear A2.

Worf
08-22-2014, 07:19 AM
Having been in this game a bit now, my current fave hide is steer. It's soft right out the box, drapes well and while mid-weight HH is okay... heavy FQHH has kinda lost its appeal to me. Wearing my GoodWear Russet DuBow today and its liveable. I'd like to get a premium Goat in my size but I ain't got one yet.

Worf

morrison2951
08-22-2014, 10:12 AM
I also like my goat Cooper A-2 but there's still nothing that can touch my Cordovan HH Vanson Enfield for looks and comfort.

Unfortunately, they don't make 'em in HH anymore.

tropicalbob
08-22-2014, 01:50 PM
Over the years I've had jackets in cow, steer, goat, and a couple I wasn't sure of, but the Aero brown FQHH is the only one I've laid out on my study table night after night and just marvelled at the tones and textures. And I still do it after 2 1/2 years! Should I be seeking help?

schitzo
08-22-2014, 01:56 PM
Bob you were beyond help a long time ago. Just carry on as you are

Cooperson
08-22-2014, 01:57 PM
Over the years I've had jackets in cow, steer, goat, and a couple I wasn't sure of, but the Aero brown FQHH is the only one I've laid out on my study table night after night and just marvelled at the tones and textures. And I still do it after 2 1/2 years! Should I be seeking help?

I know exactly what you mean, it's just a thing of beauty!

handymike
08-22-2014, 02:07 PM
Maybe it's like kids. The more work you put into it, the more you love it!

Fanch
08-22-2014, 02:22 PM
Over the years I've had jackets in cow, steer, goat, and a couple I wasn't sure of, but the Aero brown FQHH is the only one I've laid out on my study table night after night and just marvelled at the tones and textures. And I still do it after 2 1/2 years! Should I be seeking help?

I think many of us have experienced the same thing with the brown FQHH as you. My brown FQHH Teamster is a work of art. At one time I owned a vintage black FQHH HWM, and that hide was stiff as a horse saddle, but I never tire of my Teamster. It and my Maxwell made from Aero's new goatskin are my two favorites.

Joel Shapiro
08-22-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm in the minority on Horween's FQHH. It's spray-dyed, overly thick and heavy, and it doesn't grain like vintage horsehide. Personally, I hate the stuff and wish Horween would stop wasting horsehides on this overpriced, overhyped garbage. Why not do some nice veg-tanned, aniline-dyed horsehide?

Monitor
08-22-2014, 02:27 PM
Over the years I've had jackets in cow, steer, goat, and a couple I wasn't sure of, but the Aero brown FQHH is the only one I've laid out on my study table night after night and just marvelled at the tones and textures. And I still do it after 2 1/2 years! Should I be seeking help?

Ditto.

My Schott and Aero HH, the only two jackets I cannot walk past without either touching them or at least throwing a quick glance at 'em. :D

pak
08-23-2014, 10:15 AM
I run hot and cold on leather jackets, due mainly to the weight of leather. I've had HH, steer and goat. I do very much appreciate the quality of materials and craftmanship of the quality leather jackets. Some are magnificent to view and hold. The heavier jackets for me to wear are suffocating. My go to leather jacket is a JL in goat without any insulation designed for warm weather. If I rode motorcycles I certainly would have a heavier jacket.

Seb Lucas
08-23-2014, 06:34 PM
I'm in the minority on Horween's FQHH. It's spray-dyed, overly thick and heavy, and it doesn't grain like vintage horsehide. Personally, I hate the stuff and wish Horween would stop wasting horsehides on this overpriced, overhyped garbage. Why not do some nice veg-tanned, aniline-dyed horsehide?

Them's fighting words, J.S. but I know what you are getting at. I do think it looks nice but I dislike it as a jacket material. I think there's a vendor here who describes it as shoe leather.

Cooperson
08-24-2014, 02:17 AM
I'm in the minority on Horween's FQHH. It's spray-dyed, overly thick and heavy, and it doesn't grain like vintage horsehide. Personally, I hate the stuff and wish Horween would stop wasting horsehides on this overpriced, overhyped garbage. Why not do some nice veg-tanned, aniline-dyed horsehide?

'overhyped garbage' Now there's a phrase I would never have associated with this product. Yes it's very heavy stuff and it won't be suitable for many, but the sheer quality of it is light years away from anything else I've seen and handled and I've handled a lot of hides over the years. That being said, I've been impressed with the look of some of the Italian veg tanned stuff currently being shown here but I'd like to see a well worn jacket, to see how it holds up, before I ordered one.

nick123
08-24-2014, 08:24 AM
There are pros and cons to every tanning process. Up to the wearer to make a decision that best fits their preference.

Monitor
08-24-2014, 09:27 AM
It's a leather made with a clear purpose and while one may or may not like it, calling it a garbage is entirely unwarranted.

mendelboaz
08-24-2014, 02:29 PM
There's this funny thing about Horween CXL steerhide when new... It's very stiff, like a bulletproofvest when I hang it on a hanger. But when I put on my HWM, I can move around in it very comfortably. It doesn't feel or look like a cardboard box when worn, the leather is very pliable when you actually start molding it. The leather retains its shape when you mold it, which is another thing. My Vanson Model B and Schott 641HH were almost immobile when I first got them. Increcibly stiff leather that wouldn't mold or give in any way. I could mold it a bit but it would jump right back into its original shape. Now, that, you really had to break in. Stiff as cardboard. My steerhide HWM is superthick and feels like armor, but somehow it has that broken-in feel to it when I put it on. Very strange.

Navin323i
08-25-2014, 11:49 AM
My only experience with horsehide jackets have been the FQHH made by Aero. Believe it or not, it is the stiffness and thickness of the FQHH that attracts me to it. I love the feeling of this hide enveloping my upper torso and molding to it. My NYPD after owning it 4 years definitely feels less stiff than it used to, so having my new Route 66 makes me prefer wanting this stiffer/thicker material to wear. One of the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease, which I was diagnosed with a year ago at the age of 39, is muscle stiffness so that could possibly be why I like the stiff jackets more because it supports my body and muscles better?
The other thing I love about Aero's horsehide is the intoxicating smell of the jacket when you first receive the jacket. Maybe one of you can answer this question but is the smell a result of the actual hide itself (meaning all horsehide that any manufacturer uses has this same scent?), or is the smell a result of the tanning process?
My only experience with steerhide is the one that my vintage Irvin Foster 1950s jacket is made from which I originally posted on here when I first joined this site in 2010 when I was "reunited" with that jacket decades later after selling it to a friend in college. Does the Horween steerhide have a similar scent to the Horween horsehide that Aero uses?

mendelboaz
08-25-2014, 12:14 PM
My Horween Steerhide jacket smells divine, and the Horween FQHH sample I've got doesn't smell any less divine. I'd say they are identical meaning the smell is a result of the tanning process, though I'm not sure.

Navin323i
08-25-2014, 12:21 PM
My Horween Steerhide jacket smells divine, and the Horween FQHH sample I've got doesn't smell any less divine. I'd say they are identical meaning the smell is a result of the tanning process, though I'm not sure.

Thanks for the info! Just to be sure I'm understanding you fully, are you saying the Horween steerhide has an identical smell to the FQHH or are they different smells?