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Lena_Horne
04-19-2006, 09:04 PM
Well this evening on Colbert Report they had a very interesting guest on, Caitlin Flanagan, who supports a return to a time when men and women's roles were well-defined. The man was the bread-winner and the woman was the homemaker. I agreed with ninety-five percent of what she said (the part about being so dependent upon your husband that you stuck out a terribly corrupt marriage kind of rubbed me the wrong way but at the same time I couldn't reconcile it with my usual ideal and come up with an answer.) So I searched her out on the internet, found this article from The Atlantic Monthly and thought to myself, what a wonderful topic for discussion on Fedora Lounge.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200301/flanagan

L_H

Marc Chevalier
04-19-2006, 09:06 PM
From that article:

"Have you ever noticed that although you might not have been thinking sexual thoughts or feeling particularly sexy, if you push yourself to 'get started' when your spouse approaches you, it feels good, and you find yourself getting into it?"

Absolutely, positively true.


.

Lena_Horne
04-19-2006, 09:18 PM
Darn it. I realized my article (after a certain point) is only available to subscribers, which I refuse to be. So I found another one:

http://www.elle.com/article.asp?section_id=37&article_id=8556&page_number=1

WHO'S THE FAIREST WIFE OF ALL?

CAITLIN FLANAGAN IS A THOROUGHLY MODERN WOMAN WHOwhat have we here?SEEMS TO THINK THAT A MOTHER'S PLACE, AT LEAST, IS IN THE HOME. BY LAURIE ABRAHAM

---

L_H

Nick Charles
04-19-2006, 09:32 PM
I'd be all for it, but who can actually have a house, 2 cars, kids and only one income???? Heck I stay home and let my wife win the money.:eusa_clap :D

AtomicBlonde
04-19-2006, 09:40 PM
As a rather staunch conservative.... especially when it comes to families and traditional gender roles, I thought that article was an interesting read. I have a few books that I would suggest reading if you're interested in such things:
"There's no place like work: how business, government, and our obsession with work have driven parents from home." By Brian C. Robertson and "Daycare Deception: what the childcare establishment isnt telling us" also by Brian C. Robertson. Then also, "Women Who Make the World Worse: and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports" by Kate O'Beirne, who is a really great conservative writer. O'Beirne uses The Daycare Deception book as a resource in a couple chapters, and I think that one is certainly well worth reading.
If I had any doubts about staying home with my children before I read that book, they're gone now.
If you get a chance to pick one or more of those up from your library, I would. Or, you could be a complete looser like me and join the conservative book club. :eusa_doh:
-Jess

Feraud
04-20-2006, 09:48 AM
If a married couple could afford to keep the wife at home would she be "Lucy Riccardo" or a "real housewife" (http://abc.go.com/primetime/desperate/
)?
lol
Do the ladies want to be home all day darning socks and preparing supper for the husband? Or, in a more realisitic sense, are today's homemakers busy with their own interests?

mysterygal
04-20-2006, 10:06 AM
being a housewife myself, I love my life. I get to be fully involved with my children and yes, when the mister comes home, there is a fully cooked meal set out on the table and the house and kids are clean. It is a shame that there is such negativity on being a stay at home mom. For me, I am way more than just a mother of three, or someone who takes care of a house. I have my own interests and hobbies which I pursue and find time to do what I absolutely love and that's counseling.

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 10:15 AM
Any housewife will tell you that it's hard work. That doesn't mean that it isn't boring at times, or that all women are cut out for it. It just means that tending a home and family requires you to plan, adapt, execute, repair, cancel and/or repeat a multitude of tasks in and out of the home.

We should live in a world where those who want to be homemakers can be so ... and those who prefer another path can be free to take it.

Feraud
04-20-2006, 10:22 AM
We should live in a world where those who want to be homemakers can be so ... and those who prefer another path can be free to take it. I totally agree! I do not think being a housewife is awful at all. I think they get bad press. :)

VintageJess
04-20-2006, 10:30 AM
First of all, let me just start off by saying that it is possible to have a nice house, two cars, and living pretty comfortably on one salary. My husband and I do it, and on a military (officer) salary and living in expensive Northern Virginia to boot!

Our cars are used--but they are safe and attractive. Our home is very nice and comfortable with a huge backyard for our son to play in. We don't live extravagantly, but we still have enough to enjoy our hobbies and extras like vacations. We budget and spend our money wisely. We found it was pretty easy to adjust to one income, simply because we seem to save a lot by me being home--more time to shop and find bargains, I cook more and we eat out less, less money going to my work clothes and gas, etc.

As for being a stay at home housewife and mom--I love every minute of it. I was a highly educated, big time career gal before I got married and had my son. (I got pregnant on my honeymoon and quit work shortly thereafter.) I don't think I could EVER imagine leaving my son with someone else. I am selfish--I wanted to be the one to hear his first word, see his first step and first smile. The two of us have an amazing bond and it is worth all the money in the world. I know that everyday I am doing exactly what I am supposed to be doing. I couldn't be mroe fulfilled. I firmly believe that young children need their mothers and I am there for my son, everyday, in every way. And my husband comes home to a hot cooked meal and a clean and organized house. It's just what works for us.

As a side note--I'm not sure if anyone else has observed this, but I've noticed that there tends to be a lot of stay at home wives and mothers in military life. I'm sure a lot of it is simply out of necessity--frequent moves, long deployments, schools, make it hard to the spouse to build a career. But I'm also wondering if it could be because military families tend to be more conservative leaning politically and socially. (At least that is my experience and observation as a Marine Corps spouse.) I used to say that living at Camp Lejeune, NC in company grade officer housing was like a time warp back to the fifties. All the kids played outside in the alleys together. Most of the moms were home during the day, and you knew everyone was looking out for everyone else's kids. You felt safe letting them run around outside.

Jessica

BettyValentine
04-20-2006, 10:32 AM
The Fedora Lounge is awesome because I get wonderful exposure to viewpoints that I almost never see or hear about in my normal haunts (online or RL). For example, before today I had never, ever, ever met anyone who did not hate Caitlin Flanagan with the burning fury of a thousand suns.

I like to think that I am more poised than my friend who literally spat on the ground like my Italian grandmother whenever she said Ms. Flanagan's name, but my loathing of that woman's writing is no less than hers. I just don't approve of spitting in public.

I have great respect for housewives who want to be housewives. I have no respect at all for women of any stripe who want to force everyone in the world into whichever mold they happen to prefer. As for Ms. Flanagan... well, it is natural to feel that one's own choices are the superior choices, but such superiority complexes are unseemly and should be kept to the privacy of one's diary. Soapboxes are undignified, especially soapboxes that disparage other people and their chosen lifestyles.

BV

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 10:35 AM
Here's a question, VintageJess: Do you think you'll be a stay-at-home mom until your child is grown-up and leaves the home?

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 10:39 AM
I have great respect for housewives who want to be housewives. I have no respect at all for women of any stripe who want to force everyone in the world into whichever mold they happen to prefer.
Agreed. I don't think that no women should be homemakers/mothers, as long as there are women who want to be. I also don't think that no women should stay in their careers, as long as there are women who want to stay.

Andykev
04-20-2006, 10:41 AM
I think the "stay at home" mom is vital...when there are children in the house. Aren't they our best investment..in the future, and your happiness? I have seen FAR too many homes, broken homes, where the parents are more into their things ..than the kids.

Your value is not in how big a house or fancy a car you drive, it's in your FAMILY. Home-Church-School-Work....in that order! That is what is lacking today...too materalistic. I live within my means, and my wife hasn't worked in the past 10 years...and our boy is now 14. THAT is a full time job, don't you doubt it!!!

Once a husband complained that his stay at home wife didn't "do anything" and he was tired of always going to work, weekend chores..blah blah blah.

He comes home from work one day, and the house is a wreck! Beds unmaid, no dinner, laundry piled up, toys all over the floor, the sink full of dishes...

Husband yells "WHAT HAPPENED"?

She says "Honey, all the things you say I never do, well today I didn't do them":eusa_clap

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 10:45 AM
Andykev, I'll ask you the same question I asked VintageJess:

Does your wife intend to be a stay-at-home mom until your child is grown-up and leaves the home?

Feraud
04-20-2006, 10:50 AM
I think the biggest problem for women is the choice to raise children and work full or part time!
A few months ago I read a very good article that described the obstacles women go through when they choose to work and raise a family. The article described the lack of enthusiasm on behalf of corporations toward their female employees. Corporations appear to not consider a family woman as "dedicated" as their male employees.

The women described the obstacles they encountered when returning to prior positions of responsibility and salary. They described feeling "lost" and "out of the loop" when returning to a company after a period of time spent raising children. It was a very interesting article.

I have an immense amount of respect for the working woman who has a family. They do at least double the work of a guy working 9 to 5 who comes home to find supper, clean laundry, and a good children!

Andykev
04-20-2006, 10:50 AM
"Andykev, I'll ask you the same question I asked VintageJess:

Does your wife intend to be a stay-at-home mom until your child is grown-up and leaves the home?"


Well, to be blunt. yes. We don't need the money. Why else would my wife go back to work? She goes to the club every day, runs, and enjoys our dogs. We are almost retired, I will in two years. So ask someone else that question..we are set for life, not, no way, rich. I have been very careful, and smart. We are comfortable, and we really enjoy the simple life. And I still own my airplane. But the answer is NO.

scotrace
04-20-2006, 10:53 AM
Why is that such a key question, Marc?

Mine stopped working at the discovery of pregnancy. She did no work outside home until both were well and fully in school all day, and now has her own successful home-based business.

And yes, this arrangement will probably continue until the children are in college.

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 10:54 AM
Well, to be blunt. yes. ... But the answer is NO.
Yikes -- this confused me. Is the answer "yes" or is it "no"?

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 10:56 AM
Why is that such a key question, Marc?
Not really a key question, just something I'm curious about. When women say that they're "stay-at-home moms" to younger children, do they intend to continue being stay-at-home moms or not? I don't often hear this question posed or answered.

BettyValentine
04-20-2006, 10:59 AM
I also am curious about what the stay-at-home wives plan to do when their children are grown. Do you plan to work or continue to stay home? Or maybe do volunteer or charity work? Do any of you run businesses or do part-time work from the home?

I'm just curious because I know few people who do that. Then again, I'm 25 and living in Manhattan and all the friends I hang out with or associate with on a regular basis are men, so I don't really know how the other half lives.

BV

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 11:01 AM
I guess this begs another question. In your opinion, are kids and families better off with stay-at-home moms who continue until their kids leave the nest? Is this preferable to being a stay-at-home mom for, say, only the first 4 or 5 years of the kid's life?

VintageJess
04-20-2006, 11:07 AM
Here's a question, VintageJess: Do you think you'll be a stay-at-home mom until your child is grown-up and leaves the home?

Marc,

Thanks for the question. I can't say that I've completely thought out the next twenty years, but both my husband and I have talked a lot about it So for right now our answer is yes, I will stay home until the kids are all grown and here is why...

We hope to be blessed with more children, so of course that will mean more time at home with young children. At this point, we are also considering homeschooling our children once it is time for school. A lot of that will depend on the where we are stationed at the time. If we don't decide to homeschool, I would still like somehow to be involved with the children's school, whether that means volunteering a couple of days a week, or being active with the PTA or something like that.

I also feel that kids need you around more when they are in school than a lot of parents realize. I don't want my kids to come home to an empty house where they can get in trouble. I want them to have someone to talk to and share their day with. A safe place for them and their friends to play. Plus, I know of several friends with school aged kids that find it difficult to work because of shuttling the kids to after school activities like Boy Scouts, Little League, plus orthodontist appointments, the dentist, church stuff, etc. There seems to be plenty to keep you busy.

The other thing that has to be considered is that my husband plans to serve a full military career (at least twenty years.) That means he has at least twelve more to go. There are lots of social obligations that military officer spouses have, and they tend to increase with rank. Many wives find volunteer organizations to assist with---things like Navy Marine Corps Relief Society (which I volunteer with), the USO, Semper Fi Injured Marine Fund, Toys for Tots,etc. Many of us also volunteer with the Key Volunteers which is a networking support system which is active during the deployments. Of course, the other factor of military life is the frequent moves and deployments that make it hard for a spouse to build a career. There are some employers that don't even want to touch military spouses because they know you will move on.

Right now, I stay sane by indulging in my hobbies, doing volunteer work, making a little extra money on ebay, and doing some coursework online. It is very easy to get burned out or feel isolated at home. Its important to get involved in a playgroup or some kind of social network, even something online like we have here!! (So, thank you all for giving me some adult conversation!)

So, that is the plan...although we all know God laughs at plans right? To be honest Marc, I try to just enjoy each day as it comes. I think I am so blessed to get to stay at home and play with my son. Today, we've been in the sandbox, to the park, had ice cream, watched cartoons...what a life, huh? But I can honestly say that it is the hardest job I've ever done. Being a mom and a homemaker is a 24/7 gig. And I just love my husband that much more for working so hard so that I can be here and raise our son. And I know that he appreciates me and all that I do here so that he can concentrate on work and know that our son is safe and well cared for.

Thanks for asking,
Jessica

Nathan Flowers
04-20-2006, 11:16 AM
My wife stays at home with our little girl that is about to turn 2 in May. She is a gourmet chef, a banker, seamstress, counselor, master gardener, strategic planner, master organizer, in addition to being the mother of our child. Stay at home moms are the hardest working unpaid people around, and they have my utmost respect.

My wife works harder in one day than I do all week. I just happen to get paid for what I do, while her rewards are less tangible, yet far more precious.

As for Mark's question regarding whether she'll stay at home until the children are grown up, we haven't really talked about it, and that's a long time from now. If she decides to do something else outside the home at some point in time, she has the right to do so.

AtomicBlonde
04-20-2006, 11:20 AM
Personally, I dont think it is possible to balance a career and raise children. It isnt emotionally or developmentally healthy for children to be thrown in daycare from infancy until age 5 because mom is unwilling to give up her career. The spread of liberalism has made women feel like they can have their children and their careers too by making it perfectly acceptable to dump kids in daycare for 8 hours a day.
I worked in two seperate high-end daycare centers for 2 years. I don't care what anyone says, no matter how expensive or nice your daycare center is, or how great the amount of care and attention your children *supposedly* get there... it is not equal to the care of a mother. Things happen in daycare centers that would blow your mind.

I think this fast paced materialistic society we live in has moved us away from the home and family, and placed more emphasis on work... gotta make the money to have the big cookie cutter McMansion, to drive the really expensive cars and have the fancy gadgets in the house... this all comes at the expense of our childrens well being.

I've had some people think I was insane for wanting to stay home and care for my children when I have them... but what they loose sight of... is that being a mother is THE MOST important job I will ever have. It wouldnt matter if I was a movie star or the queen of sheba... everything pales in comparison to being a parent. Family is everything... without it there is nothing.

-Jess

P.S. This is purely my opinion. I'm not trying to poke at anyone or intentionally anger anyone who feels differently than I... just stating what I think. :)

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 11:20 AM
VintageJess and Zohar, thank you for such thoughtful answers. My own mom was a stay-at-home mom in Los Angeles in the '70s. I am still angered by the amount of flak she got for it -- from other women. Kudos to you for taking the path that seems best to you.

VintageJess
04-20-2006, 11:21 AM
I also am curious about what the stay-at-home wives plan to do when their children are grown. Do you plan to work or continue to stay home? Or maybe do volunteer or charity work? Do any of you run businesses or do part-time work from the home?

I'm just curious because I know few people who do that. Then again, I'm 25 and living in Manhattan and all the friends I hang out with or associate with on a regular basis are men, so I don't really know how the other half lives.

BV

Betty,

I will say that I realized for me that there would be no "going back", at least to where I was before--in a management position, working 16 hour days. I know I just won't ever do that again, because my children will always come first. It wouldn't be fair for my family or for an employer for me to attempt to pick up where I was.

If I ever do go back to the workforce, it will probably be in something part time, or less pressure, once more kids are grown. Maybe even to the academic world or something.

I do know that a lot of ladies use the time at home to get a second degree, or work on a Masters, or maybe make a career change. Often you here of women going back to the workforce and doing something entirely different than what they did before. The little online businesses are becoming very popular. A lot of women have other little side businesses--things like Mary Kay, or Pampered Chef. I think that is usually more for the social side of things as opposed to truly being an "extra income" but I don't know for sure.

Jessica

Andykev
04-20-2006, 11:25 AM
Yikes -- this confused me. Is the answer "yes" or is it "no"?

Oh I am so sorry. YES she intends to remain a stay at home mom, and NO she isn't going to work.

And I also ask, why is this such a compelling question for you? Were you a latch key kid? You going thru the same dilemma? Your married? have a wife with kids?

Andykev
04-20-2006, 11:30 AM
I guess this begs another question. In your opinion, are kids and families better off with stay-at-home moms who continue until their kids leave the nest? Is this preferable to being a stay-at-home mom for, say, only the first 4 or 5 years of the kid's life?

Well maybe someone will pull up some study to prove otherwise, but I strongly believe that a stay at home mom throughout the childs years, until end of high school, produce better kids.

Geez, this is a hot topic. I think I'm in the same camp as Dr. Laura Schlessinger from our KSFO radio progroam, the woman who wrote the book on "The Proper Care And Feeding Of Husbands".

She advocates women who act the role of a woman, and raise their kids properly. Frumpy houswifes are out with her.

http://www.drlaura.com/main/

Marc Chevalier
04-20-2006, 11:31 AM
... why is this such a compelling question for you? Were you a latch key kid? You going thru the same dilemma? Your married? have a wife with kids?
Good questions. I was raised by a stay-at-home mom until I left home at 18 for college.

I am newly married and we would like to have a child within the next 4 years. My wife was also raised by a stay-at-home mom and we're trying to decide which route to follow.


.

Andykev
04-20-2006, 11:38 AM
The Balanced Mom - Fact or Fiction?
by Lesley Spencer, MSc. - Founder & President
HomeBasedWorkingMoms.com


It's a pretty well known fact: Moms are pulled in many directions and their to-do list almost never gets completely crossed off. There's the kids, the husband, the house, the chores, the errands, the laundry, the meals, the appointments, the kid's activities, the birthday parties and on and on. It's an intensive job that requires some great time management and organization to ensure that everything gets done (or almost everything), and there's still enough time to spend relaxing and enjoying your family.

Here are some tips to you find some balance:

* Use a calendar to stay organized. Keep track of home, school and work activities and appointments on your calendar. It may work best to use a desk calendar that you can take with you as well as set calendar reminders in a program such as Outlook to remind you of certain repeating activities, practices, birthdays, bills to pay, etc.

* Be a team. Ask for help when needed and offer help where needed. Perhaps one week you can be in charge of homework or baths and the next week your spouse can. Come up with mutually beneficial plans to help your family function and have lots of time for family fun!

* Let go of guilt and know that you cannot possibly do everything. Whether you need to hire a housekeeper, order take out or say no to a volunteer request, know that you are doing what's best for you and your family but not overextending yourself and putting unnecessary burdens and expectations on yourself.

* Schedule a weekly date with your spouse as well as individual time with your kids. Also make time for yourself. Do not let one area of your life dominate the rest.

* Use your evening time wisely. Instead of plopping down in front of the TV, go on a long walk with your spouse and/or your kids. Have a picnic dinner in the backyard. Play a game or do something that enables you to really connect with your family.

* Be a smart shopper and meal planner. Buy cookbooks with quick, healthy meals or meals that you can double and freeze for another night. No need to do it all every night.

* Know that you can always adjust and change your options. If the choices that were right for you last year are not as good this year, reconsider and re-evaluate all of your options. Talk it over with your spouse and close friends. Then decide what is best for you and your family today. Take life by the horns!

* Stay flexible. Just as your children grow and your marriage matures, your individual, career, family and marriage needs will also grow, change and develop. Stay open to changes and realize that growing with each of these areas will be fresh, exciting, challenging and probably at times, frustrating and tiring.

* If you work, remember in the end it is not going to matter how much you dazzled your clients or employer with long hours if you miss out on treasured moments with your children and your spouse. Remind yourself to check in occasionally on where you are spending your time.... and where you are not.

* Do what's best for you and your family. Don't allow others to dictate what the best option is for you and your family.

With these tips and your own tried-and-true ones, you will find that being a balanced mom is not fiction. It truly can be fact. It just takes planning, delegating, flexibility, a positive attitude and some great organization. As a mom, I can proudly say and I'm sure you would agree: There's no better or more rewarding job in the world!

Copyright HBWM.com, Inc. 2006

Lesley Spencer is the founder and president of the national association of Home-Based Working Moms (www.HBWM.com), the HBWM.com, Inc. Network of Websites and author of the Work-at-Home Workbook. She has a Master's Degree in Public Relations and has been featured in numerous media outlets including CBS News, Forbes, Business Week, Parents, Wall Street Journal and USA Today. She has been working from home for over 11 years and has two children whom she absolutely adores! Permission granted for use on DrLaura.com

Viola
04-20-2006, 02:01 PM
What is the advantage of staying home after the kids are in school? What about working from home, so that the kids don't come home to an empty house but the family has the benefit of two incomes?

My mom stayed home until I was 12, my youngest sibling was 8. I respect the choices she and my dad made, but I think, honestly, that her staying home was a less than ideal economic choice for a working class family.

Sincerely,
Viola

BettyValentine
04-20-2006, 02:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason that it would be better to have a stay -at-home mom instead of a stay-at-home dad? If we take it as a given that children are better off with one parent at home, is it necessarily the woman's role to be that parent?



BV - again, not snarking. Just genuinely asking because I don't spend a lot of time with people who have different opinions/experiences than I.

Baron Kurtz
04-20-2006, 03:35 PM
This is interesting ... None of my friends had stay at home mothers. And neither did i. In Thatcher's Britain, stay at home mother really wasn't an option (other than those who had husbands earning the big bucks - bux?). I remember my parents counting their change at the end of the week to see how much food they could buy (and that's with both parents working full time).

My brother now has two children. With all the government handouts he gets, along with tax rebates and such, his girlfriend can stay at 'ome wif da kids. They only need one parent to work in order to get along okay. That's right ... pseudo-socialism is helping people achieve what is being put forth as the more desireable way to bring up children ... Or just helping lazy freeloaders get what they can out of the system, depending on your point of view.

bk

jamespowers
04-20-2006, 04:10 PM
My wife does not work either and we don't have any children yet so by all accounts she should be working? I don't think so.
There is still plenty to do even without children around the house. The house doesn't clean itself. The yard doesn't water itself and the bills don't pay themselves. With the cost of child warehousing, a gardener, accountant, housekeeper, butler, laundress and a host of other jobs to be filled around the house, I just couldn't afford for her to work. That's the long and short of it. [huh] Someone staying home saves money no matter how you look at it.
I don't have the huge TV. I sort of shun most technology anyway and the cars are all over 30 years old.
I had to write this because my wife just called me here at work to see what was going on. Not much here other than entering data that is making me cross eyed. Thank God I don't have to do this everyday. Anyway I asked here what was going on there. She said nothing. I couldn't believe that so I delved a little further. Well, nothing turned out to mean doing laundry and a host of other things---dinner being one of them as well. lol She really is working harder than I am right now. :D :eek:

Regards,

J

Salv
04-20-2006, 04:26 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason that it would be better to have a stay -at-home mom instead of a stay-at-home dad? If we take it as a given that children are better off with one parent at home, is it necessarily the woman's role to be that parent?



BV - again, not snarking. Just genuinely asking because I don't spend a lot of time with people who have different opinions/experiences than I.

Excellent point Betty! My wife and I have nearly always managed to share the stay-at-home part due to me working shifts and my wife being a freelance hairdresser who can plan her work around my shift pattern. I spend as much time 'at home' as my wife and so share all the household chores: the cooking, cleaning, ironing, food shopping and, most importantly, the raising of our - now 13 year old - daughter. As a result my daughter and I seem to be much closer than her friends are with their fathers, and the whole concept of "wifely" duties strikes us as bizarre. They're just duties, which traditionally have been carried out by women. There is no reason at all why men shouldn't be the main carer and housekeeper - we just have to shake off outdated traditional gender roles and realise that women who want careers are not evil, and that men are actually capable of raising children and maintaining a home.

Nora Charles
04-20-2006, 07:10 PM
My husband and I also share the stay-at-home part. He spends most of the day with our daughter and I the evenings. But we both have weekends off so we are together. I really like sharing this with him because I feel that he has such a special relationship with her that he probably would not have developed if he was working all the time. Plus we equally share the household duties. It feels more like a partnership. I have friends who do not work and feel very unappreciated. I think you just have to find what works for you!

Lincsong
04-20-2006, 07:16 PM
I've always believed that it is up to each couple to decide their comfort level.

What's really important is that the wife is able to continue if tragedy should strike and the husband dies young. That is the real sticker. Yes, there should be mourning, but life continues.

I've known many "golden agers" who were absolutely lost when the husband died. Where is the money? What bank has the checking account? Is it the same as the savings account? What about the stock brokerage? Or Life Insurance? I've known "golden agers" who refused to put their wives names on the mortgage. Their excuse? "Well, California is a community property state, she'll get everything when I die". Yeah, he dies and the wife spends $5,000 on a lawyer to get everything put into her name. Or he thinks he'll outlive her so he doesn't take survivors benefits, drops dead 5 months after retiring at age 55 and the wife has no income, no life insurance and doesn't know where the savings are located.:eek: Another common thought process I've encountered with "golden agers" is; "why buy life insurance? If I die she'll remarry and the other guy will enjoy the money?" This isn't made up, these are actual comments I've encountered.

With housewives; the most important part is not the housework, but the preparation for the worse.:)

John in Covina
04-20-2006, 11:03 PM
I'd be all for it, but who can actually have a house, 2 cars, kids and only one income???? Heck I stay home and let my wife win the money.:eusa_clap :D
*************
Not to point at you Nick, BUT Perhaps this type of question illuminates a view point of the modern age in which there seems to be also several generations that simply cannot do without every possible convienience. In comparison my parents generations did with out a lot to make sure the kids were clothed, fed, had a roof over our heads, brought up correctly and schooled well.

Nowadays, couples will put off having children so they can have the cool house, the big screen tv / entertainment center and the 2 new BMW's. They prefer the party sceen to resposibility of raising children. What about the sserious keeping up with the Joneses type needs. Fastest laptop, newest cell phones, Iposds, Computers, music, trips to Cabo and Vale? This is serious cash.

Perhaps taxes are too high to allow a one income home, but I think it is also based on the expectations of lifestyle.

JustJen
04-20-2006, 11:48 PM
originally posted by Atomic Blonde
Personally, I dont think it is possible to balance a career and raise children. It isnt emotionally or developmentally healthy for children to be thrown in daycare from infancy until age 5 because mom is unwilling to give up her career. The spread of liberalism has made women feel like they can have their children and their careers too by making it perfectly acceptable to dump kids in daycare for 8 hours a day.

I realize this is just your opinion but there are some kids who develop just fine while attending daycare. I have two of them. There's plenty of stay at home moms who don't share your thoughts about the importance of family. And there's plenty of working moms who do.

Is the optimal situation to have a stay home mother? In some situations, yes. Some kids need that. Believe it or not, other kids don't. Some are just very independent. I actually spend more quality time with my kids because I know I don't have all day with them. I am all theirs when I pick them up. It makes our bond quite special.

I don't work because I'm not willing to give up my job. I work so that we can have affordable health care and the boys will have paid college tuition when the time comes. As an added bonus, I actually like my job. Our situation works for our family.

Opinion or not, your blanket statements and the language you're using imply that my kids are going to somehow grow up to become inadequate adults. I can tell you simply that one size does not fit all.

JustJen
04-21-2006, 12:04 AM
Atomic Blonde~ just re-read my posting and I promise I wasn't taking offense to your prior post so please don't take offense to mine. Just wanted to get a different (and quite apparently in the minority) viewpoint out there.

The Wolf
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
Early on with our children my wife stayed home and I went to work. My wife recently graduated from Nursing School and got a job at a hospital. One of us has always been home with our sons. My wife works full-time and I've adjusted my schedule to work around hers.
I might quit and become a househusband. I could still play cards with the boys and I'm sure my wife would give me enough money for nice suits and hats.

The Wolf

scotrace
04-21-2006, 04:22 AM
A very good friend of mine had a fine career based on a good degree. He had a huge future ahead. But when his wife accepted a job in another city that was VERY fast-track with a major bank, they moved and he became a stay at home dad. His own father was unglued by it (WW2 vet). But it has worked well for him and their two daughters for ten years now. He resented the arrangment only when the girls began having monthly cycles and wanted to choose makeup. He was rather clueless.
It has worked well for their family. I'd have no problem doing that.

My parents both worked and I was a latch-key as long as I remember.

AtomicBlonde
04-21-2006, 06:08 AM
Atomic Blonde~ just re-read my posting and I promise I wasn't taking offense to your prior post so please don't take offense to mine. Just wanted to get a different (and quite apparently in the minority) viewpoint out there.

:) Its ok, and I understand. I'm not trying to start an argument or tick anyone off. This is just a subject I feel very strongly about, and I understand that others might feel differently. Differences in opinions are quite alright.

I understand that some women simply CANT stay home. However, studies have shown that children who were placed in daycare since infancy learn to talk and walk at a slower rate, and have a higher likelihood of childhood depression and behavioral probelms. Even the best daycare centers are below what they *should* be for childcare. Parents may think that your children are getting great one on one attention in daycare centers, and even if you get to sit in on a day... nine times out of ten, the center is putting its best face forward until you're gone. Like I said before, I worked at 2 high end daycare centers where when moms and dads were present, everything looked pristine and great.... once they were gone everything was different. Children werent supervised as well as they should be, daycare workers yelled at the children, I even knew a couple teachers who would spank the kids if they were bad... and I saw one drag a crying child down the hall by one arm. I had to quit. There is just no way that with a teacher child ratio of 1:5 (or more, depending on the age of the children) that each child can get indivual attention and have his or her developmental needs met. I really suggest anyone who puts their children in daycare or is considering it to read "Daycare Deception: what the childcare establishment isnt telling us."

I just think its wrong to put your kids into childcare if you dont have to. I understand that others might not feel the same way as I do, and thats fine. I guess this is just a subject that I have some really strong convictions about so thats why I said something.

-Jess

Salv
04-21-2006, 06:16 AM
Children werent supervised as well as they should be, daycare workers yelled at the children, I even knew a couple teachers who would spank the kids if they were bad... and I saw one drag a crying child down the hall by one arm.
...
-Jess

That kind of treatment isn't exclusive to day care centres. I've seen plenty of parents - both here in the UK and in the US - doing exactly what you have described to their children. Are there any studies into the effects of such behaviour on those children?

ProperRogue
04-21-2006, 06:46 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason that it would be better to have a stay -at-home mom instead of a stay-at-home dad? If we take it as a given that children are better off with one parent at home, is it necessarily the woman's role to be that parent?



BV - again, not snarking. Just genuinely asking because I don't spend a lot of time with people who have different opinions/experiences than I.

Stay at home dad? I would love to spend the day at home playing with my two kids...I just wouldn't want to do all of the other work my stay-at-home wife does. That is more work then I am willing to do! ;)

ProperRogue
04-21-2006, 06:53 AM
*************
Not to point at you Nick, BUT Perhaps this type of question illuminates a view point of the modern age in which there seems to be also several generations that simply cannot do without every possible convienience. In comparison my parents generations did with out a lot to make sure the kids were clothed, fed, had a roof over our heads, brought up correctly and schooled well.

Nowadays, couples will put off having children so they can have the cool house, the big screen tv / entertainment center and the 2 new BMW's. They prefer the party sceen to resposibility of raising children. What about the sserious keeping up with the Joneses type needs. Fastest laptop, newest cell phones, Iposds, Computers, music, trips to Cabo and Vale? This is serious cash.

Perhaps taxes are too high to allow a one income home, but I think it is also based on the expectations of lifestyle.

I agree...Not to long ago, after being married 12 years with no kids, I was ready to purchase my wife her dream car - a Porsche 911 - and she became pregnant. (Notice I didn't say we got pregnant - I realize who is doing all of the really hard work here! :D ) Anyways, we now have two wonderful children. Every once and a while I will catch my wife looking longingly at another 911. When I ask her about it, she always replies maybe someday, but that she is more satisfied and happy with our two little holigans then she ever would have been with a car.

PR

mysterygal
04-21-2006, 08:02 AM
I agree, the material things pale in comparison to imparting valuable morals and time into your children. As far as Marcs question about working after kids are grown up...I have already planned to work part time while the kids are all in school to help out with school....private school is NOT cheap! But it is something we feel is important for them. I love having a job, making my own money, there's a satisfaction in it and even though I know I am doing my job at home, it makes me feel good being able to help my husband out with some of the expenses.

Baron Kurtz
04-21-2006, 08:54 AM
That's an interesting point. How do the stay at home mothers feel about being beholden to the man for EVERYthing that costs money? (personally i would hate to rely on someone else for all my material needs.) And does it cause friction when she wishes to treat herself with HIS hard earned money? I imagine it could with a more money-obsessed man ...

just wondrin'

bk

JustJen
04-21-2006, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Atomic Blonde

I understand that some women simply CANT stay home. However, studies have shown that children who were placed in daycare since infancy learn to talk and walk at a slower rate, and have a higher likelihood of childhood depression and behavioral probelms. Even the best daycare centers are below what they *should* be for childcare. Parents may think that your children are getting great one on one attention in daycare centers, and even if you get to sit in on a day... nine times out of ten, the center is putting its best face forward until you're gone. Like I said before, I worked at 2 high end daycare centers where when moms and dads were present, everything looked pristine and great.... once they were gone everything was different. Children werent supervised as well as they should be, daycare workers yelled at the children, I even knew a couple teachers who would spank the kids if they were bad... and I saw one drag a crying child down the hall by one arm. I had to quit. There is just no way that with a teacher child ratio of 1:5 (or more, depending on the age of the children) that each child can get indivual attention and have his or her developmental needs met. I really suggest anyone who puts their children in daycare or is considering it to read "Daycare Deception: what the childcare establishment isnt telling us." .

I will look for the book and I think it will make for an interesting read. I too worked at daycares while in college. I've seen some of the behavior you mention, with the exception of spanking- I've never seen that. I'd end up going to jail if I did (we spank in our home as a last resort but no one, not even my mother spanks our kids. We find other disciplinary actions have much better effect).

In our neighborhood, stay at home moms are the norm. And I think they have the hardest job in the world. Being with your own children 24 x 7 really is so tough. It takes a lot of discipline and scheduling to keep your own kids and interact with them while you're trying to maintain a household. Around here, it's a privilege to get to stay home, not a scarlet letter.

Our house backs up to a Children's Courtyard daycare although this isn't where my kids go (my oldest did at one point but we took him out when his teacher decided to quit. She ended up keeping him for 2 years). I can hear the younger kids outside with their teachers when I go outside to smoke. They don't know I'm there and I always listen to their interactions. Frankly, they're very tender with those kids. I'm impressed with how they treat them. I don't get to see how they are indoors but if it's at all like it is outside, those kids are really well cared for. But you're right in that it in no way replaces a mother. I don't view daycare as a replacement for me or my husband. I look at it as a time for my kids to interact with other peers and learn to respect and deal with adults other than myself or my husband.

And rarely, you get hold of a daycare that has little to no turnover and they end up becoming extended family. All of the women who work at our daycare with children have them there. They're certainly not there to make money. I firmly believe these women have a special calling. We are very lucky to have found them. This daycare isn't high end, they don't have brand new equipment or fancy digs. We are very lucky to have found them.

I am the product of divorced parents, a working mom, and was a latch key kid. I've been married longer than my parents and I know what bad and good daycare looks and feels like from the viewpoint of a child. But I've turned out quite good I think. Perhaps reading the book you mention will give me new insight.

I am curious about your thoughts on public/private schooling. Our kids are there for 8 hours a day, in the hands of another individual. Do you have the same concerns? I know numerous teaching professionals in both public and private schools (and I'm certainly not insinuating that it's the norm. The majority of the teachers I know are fine role models). If people knew how racist some of them are or some of the things they do in their private time, they would flip their lid.

I think it's fabulous that you've already made your decision at such a young age. Stick to your guns and make it happen.

Jen

AtomicBlonde
04-21-2006, 09:51 AM
I am curious about your thoughts on public/private schooling. Our kids are there for 8 hours a day, in the hands of another individual. Do you have the same concerns?
Jen

No, I dont have the same concerns regarding public/private schools. What I'm talking about is early childhood. I'm talking about the kids who are put in daycare starting at 6 weeks. Those first few years are very important to a childs development... I wouldnt want someone else taking care of my kids in those first few critical years.
I was homeschooled the last half of my education, and I think I'm better for it. My sister went to private school. (she wasnt very good at being a self learner, and she was also a social butterfly... it was really important for her to have lots of social interaction, whereas I was content doing stuff on my own... so my parents just adjusted to our needs.)
I have no faith in the current state of the American public education system, and wouldnt put my kids through that. My kids will go to a private school, or if a suitable one isnt found in my area, they'll be homeschooled. My time spent in public school was a miserable experience. Disrespectful students, drugs, fighting. And this was in a small town highschool. Sorry, that was really :offtopic:

-Jess

Irena
04-21-2006, 10:00 AM
I'd be all for it, but who can actually have a house, 2 cars, kids and only one income???? Heck I stay home and let my wife win the money.:eusa_clap :D

My mother is a stay-at-home mom for my brother and me, my father doesn't make much money, we own a farm (though we don't live there, we rent neareer his job), we have three cars with insurance (six if you count the utility and project cars without insurance),we've always had an RV (not too small, either), and we eat better than most people with much more money than us.

You don't need much money to live well. We've never had a television, but we have never missed it. We have home-cooked, sit-down meals all the time, and we cut our own firewood for heat.

By the way, I'm now 18 and my brother is 15.

Irena.

p.s. Mom plans to work after both of us graduate from high-school.

mysterygal
04-21-2006, 10:03 AM
public school have gone downhill moral wise and educationally speaking. Home schooling just isn't for me...I'm way too busy with my other two girls to give my oldest my total undivided attention at this point. The private school my daughter goes to instills good Christian values and on the scale nation wise, probably due to the smaller classes, the kids score higher than public school academically.
To what the Baron asked about money...yes it does cause some friction, that's why I like having my side jobs.

jamespowers
04-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Oh geez, public schools what a mess. Smaller class sizes do not make a difference, brand new facilities do not make a difference and money put into it by the ton doesn't make a difference. Why? Because they have severe structural problems that they are not willing to deal with such as a poor cirriculum, no cost accountability, no performance based accountability showing up in salary and likely a school board that is unresponsive.
If you think this is a fantasy, then check out the Sausalito School District in California. They spend over $24,000 per student, classes are small, all teachers are credentialed, the average teacher salary is $70,000 per year and are they producing geniuses? NO! Their test scores are horrible and the children have huge behavior problems.
Until public schools are willing to concentrate on the necessary subjects, discipline and cost accountability, all they are good for is creating jobs for teachers. At least that is the way it is here. It may be different in other areas of the country but the Kansas City School District is another shining example of a mess created with the thought that money equals knowledge and better schools. I can elaborate on that case if necessary but this is getting a little far off topic as it is.
Put me in the Private School Only category for my area of the country. This is coming from a public school graduate when it was on its way down.

Regards,

J

JustJen
04-21-2006, 10:31 AM
originally posted by Atomic Blonde
I have no faith in the current state of the American public education system, and wouldnt put my kids through that.

:offtopic: I agree with you on this one. In Texas, we have the worst public school system-we can't even figure out how to pay for it. While I don't have the skillset to home school my kids, we haven't decided whether to send our kids to private schools once they reach 6th grade. Our school district is very rich and the elementary school my son attends is exceptional. Especially since it has the most economically diverse student body in the school district and produces test results on par with private schools.

I am quite firm in my belief that my kids will go to a private school. My husband, who works for a local school district, is not so convinced. He still has faith that there's redeeming qualities in public education.

VintageJess
04-21-2006, 10:34 AM
That's an interesting point. How do the stay at home mothers feel about being beholden to the man for EVERYthing that costs money? (personally i would hate to rely on someone else for all my material needs.) And does it cause friction when she wishes to treat herself with HIS hard earned money? I imagine it could with a more money-obsessed man ...

just wondrin'

bk

Baron,

I guess it's all in how you look at it and what kind of marital relationship that you have. I am very fortunate in that my husband never, ever points out that it is HIS money. We view this as a team effort--trying to raise our family and be good citizens. His part just happens to be away from the home and he is paid for it. Whereas, I provide other services to our family (with childcare, cooking, cleaning, etc.) that save us money on having to pay someone else to do it.

In fact, I do the budgeting, bill paying, and pretty much everything else financial in our house. For one, I have always been good with money and budgeting and my husband hates it, so that works for us. Also, we've always feel that is a better situation considering my husband's line of work . That way, if he is out in the field or deployed, we never have to worry about a bill being late or things like that.

But we really view it as OUR money. I guess a lot of that may go back to the fact that we are a military family and we strongly believe that even though he is the actual U.S. Marine, our whole family serves. I think any military member will tell you that they couldn't do what they do without their family support. So I guess we just see it as this is OUR job.

And my husband really respects the work that I do here at home. I have to say that I've worked very hard to make our home and family run in an efficient manner. I have daily, weekly and monthly schedules and I stick to them pretty well. I like things to be organized and non-hectic. Dinner is ready each night and I try to have at least one homemade treat (cake, cookies, etc.) to snack on during the week. Most housework and chores are done during the day and week so that we have our nights and weekends to spend time as a family. I also plan learning activities and physical activities for our son. I work just as hard at this as I have at any job, because I really do see it as a my "job" or calling right now. I enjoy making our home a safe, peaceful haven for my family.

Jessica

Lena_Horne
04-21-2006, 11:53 AM
:offtopic: I agree with you on this one. In Texas, we have the worst public school system-we can't even figure out how to pay for it. While I don't have the skillset to home school my kids, we haven't decided whether to send our kids to private schools once they reach 6th grade. Our school district is very rich and the elementary school my son attends is exceptional. Especially since it has the most economically diverse student body in the school district and produces test results on par with private schools.

I am quite firm in my belief that my kids will go to a private school. My husband, who works for a local school district, is not so convinced. He still has faith that there's redeeming qualities in public education.

Hm. We've had different experiences. I attended the ALIEF district schools in Texas during the early to late nineties and received some of the best education of my life outside of the exclusive and private sectors. I went to Michael Kennedy elementary (where I had problems in math due to my old school's focus on foreign languages [this was in Detroit though]) but by the time I got to Klentzman Intermediate School I was in the accelerated courses and taking wonderful classes in Eco-Science and Art. Then my family moved back to Michigan and I was placed in a public school that had great teachers but terrible students. The move was somewhat dramatic for me and my grades didn't improve again until I got to the eighth grade. Then I entered High School and it was hit or miss. One year I'm on the honor roll, the next I'm failing. Back and forth. By the time I started attending CASA (center for the advanced studies and the arts) I was only performing in certain classes and bored out of my mind in others. I did well at CASA which offered afternoon courses and I was able to take AP which was no longer offered at my "home" school. My AP English teacher identified one of my problems: that I wasn't used to working hard and slowly I pulled my grade up from "abysmal" to an A minus by February. I couldn't have been more proud.

So I guess it depends on the atmosphere as well as a wealth of other factors. Something many public schools no longer require is accountability and or performance standards. CASA was a priviledge and I had to earn my right to go there even though it was a public school albeit a much smaller one. All in all though I rank it with Klentzman as a wonderful school and I'm glad I was fortunate enough to attend, I know there are millions of students that don't have the same opportunity.

Sorry for riding the off-topic train,

L_H

The Wolf
04-21-2006, 04:00 PM
My kids go to a public school because these are the same people and problems they'll face outside of school. However my wife and I have both volunteered in the classes, we talk to the teachers and principal regularly so they know we are involved and interested in our childrens academics. That actually seems different than a lot of the parents.
We pick up the kids at class so the students know us. My wife and I help teach in the home also so they had a head start for school and their grades have been very good. We started with the McGuffey's Readers.
Involvement with ones children is the key to all of this.
My wife or I have always been at home as the kids grow so we get to see their firsts (first steps, first words, first catch, etc.) and we don't rely on the school system or worse the television to raise our children. We brought them into the world they are now our responsibilty to raise and form.

Sincerely,
The Wolf

Nora Charles
04-21-2006, 07:55 PM
Oh geez, public schools what a mess. Smaller class sizes do not make a difference, brand new facilities do not make a difference and money put into it by the ton doesn't make a difference. Why? Because they have severe structural problems that they are not willing to deal with such as a poor cirriculum, no cost accountability, no performance based accountability showing up in salary and likely a school board that is unresponsive.
If you think this is a fantasy, then check out the Sausalito School District in California. They spend over $24,000 per student, classes are small, all teachers are credentialed, the average teacher salary is $70,000 per year and are they producing geniuses? NO! Their test scores are horrible and the children have huge behavior problems.
Until public schools are willing to concentrate on the necessary subjects, discipline and cost accountability, all they are good for is creating jobs for teachers. At least that is the way it is here. It may be different in other areas of the country but the Kansas City School District is another shining example of a mess created with the thought that money equals knowledge and better schools. I can elaborate on that case if necessary but this is getting a little far off topic as it is.
Put me in the Private School Only category for my area of the country. This is coming from a public school graduate when it was on its way down.

Regards,

J


I am a public school teacher. I don't agree that smaller class sizes would not make a difference. I am responsible for over 30 students. That means teaching them the essential skills that they need to know to be productive members of society. I have almost NO parental support (Thank you Wolf, I wish all parents were like you!) and yet am held ENTIRELY accountable for their successes. My salary IS based on their performance and so is my contract. But due to the lack of parenting I experience, I am not only a student's teacher of academics, but of morality, manners, etc...times 30. Therefore, smaller classes, and more money WOULD allow me to get close to producing those "geniuses" you are looking for. I work really hard each year to give students every opportunity they deserve. I think teachers have been given a bad reputation by people who think it is so easy to teach. Every successful business person I have had in my class says they wouldn't trade places with me for anything. It makes my job even harder (and breaks my spirit) to have to defend my profession, but I will with every student that I see learn and succeed. We're not all bad...

John in Covina
04-21-2006, 09:32 PM
Parents who don't prepare their children for school, for being polite and social, for life, don't do anyone any favors, not ever their children, not even themselves.

Nick Charles
04-21-2006, 09:50 PM
I usually don't get involved with ed issues that for the misses, but working at the same school I can attest for the lack of parent involvement. Just Wednesday there was a parent/voulunteer meeting and only 6 people showed up. For over 700 kids---you do the math. Love ya honey....

jamespowers
04-21-2006, 10:32 PM
I am a public school teacher. I don't agree that smaller class sizes would not make a difference. I am responsible for over 30 students. That means teaching them the essential skills that they need to know to be productive members of society. I have almost NO parental support (Thank you Wolf, I wish all parents were like you!) and yet am held ENTIRELY accountable for their successes. My salary IS based on their performance and so is my contract. But due to the lack of parenting I experience, I am not only a student's teacher of academics, but of morality, manners, etc...times 30. Therefore, smaller classes, and more money WOULD allow me to get close to producing those "geniuses" you are looking for. I work really hard each year to give students every opportunity they deserve. I think teachers have been given a bad reputation by people who think it is so easy to teach. Every successful business person I have had in my class says they wouldn't trade places with me for anything. It makes my job even harder (and breaks my spirit) to have to defend my profession, but I will with every student that I see learn and succeed. We're not all bad...

So all academic problems are the parent's fault? :eek: I don't know about your state but in mine there are several things that are not the same by your account. More than 30 people in the classroom populated every class I had from kindergarten to 12th grade. The rooms were jam-packed. The same was true when my mother went to the same public schools 30 years before me. We both learned. Further, college classes were at least 40 people per room and up to 200. We learned there too.
Possibly your structural model in your area is better than what we have to deal with here. I did say "at least that is the way it is here." Whatever the case, the teachers here have absolutely no accountability. They get a salary based on the number of years they are employed here (seniority) and maybe prior experience. I have dealt with the problems here for over 15 years now and no matter what is done other than addressing the structural problems, nothing makes a difference. Like I mentioned previously, none of the ancillary stuff made a difference from money to smaller class size.
Teaching morals and such is not the responsibility of the school and it should not be forced upon you. If they can't sit still or pay attention then they need to be removed from those that can and want to learn.
I guess I am going to have to roll out the "Money And School Performance:
Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment" by Paul Ciotti. Money and small class size DOES NOT solve educational problems. It has been proved time and again. First in the Kansas City School District in a cost is no object case. So class size and money would make a difference? The how about "higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal and the student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country?" Think that would make a difference? WRONG? It didn't. "The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration."
See it for yourself at either:http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html
or http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=Kansas+City+School+Dis trict&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=kw&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&objectId=0900000b80137a67&accno=ED418160
I have studied this subject for over a decade. This is not the only case. Money does not solve all academic problems or even some and I do not lay the blame solely at the teacher's feet. Low academic achievement is usually met with the we need more money from the district itself and not the teachers. They never focus inward and ask what they could be doing better as a district to serve the students here. The teachers are used as pawns in this game. They hamstring the teacher into believing that only money could solve their problems when the district could help the teachers by getting out of their way and letting them teach without forcing them to place things in the curriculum that need not be there. I have seen politics being brought into geology classes and math classes. There was just no reason for it. Restrict the discussion to the subject at hand. I could go on for pages. I just might have a book in all the information I have accumulated but that is for another day. :D
I never said teachers are all bad. I didn't even say one teacher is bad. ;)

Regards to all,

J

Nora Charles
04-22-2006, 02:17 PM
You're right we each have our own experiences and we are off topic.

Peace

scotrace
04-22-2006, 04:16 PM
This is way off the original poster's topic of lost intimacy in modern marriages and how that relates to the same situation in the Golden era. Since we've essentially duplicated the "Work and a Family" thread, and this one has become a bit of a deceased equine, please get in closing arguments...

Lincsong
04-22-2006, 08:45 PM
This is way off the original poster's topic of lost intimacy in modern marriages and how that relates to the same situation in the Golden era. Since we've essentially duplicated the "Work and a Family" thread, and this one has become a bit of a deceased equine, please get in closing arguments...

Wow? Lost intimacy? Talk about getting off topic.:eek:

I'm glad that many couples are keeping each other informed about the house finances. I still can't get over the number of "golden agers" in my parents neighborhood who when one spouse died, the surviving spouse was absolutely lost; "where's the money? my names not on the house? etc." In California and other community property states it's not as bad to do something that foolish, but in the other states where things are separate, I could see some real problems.

Mrs. MK
04-22-2006, 10:59 PM
I think the "stay at home" mom is vital...when there are children in the house. Aren't they our best investment..in the future, and your happiness? I have seen FAR too many homes, broken homes, where the parents are more into their things ..than the kids.

Once a husband complained that his stay at home wife didn't "do anything" and he was tired of always going to work, weekend chores..blah blah blah.

He comes home from work one day, and the house is a wreck! Beds unmaid, no dinner, laundry piled up, toys all over the floor, the sink full of dishes...

Husband yells "WHAT HAPPENED"?

She says "Honey, all the things you say I never do, well today I didn't do them":eusa_clap

This joke is my favorite of all time. I too am a stay-at-home mom. I spent 14 years in the work force, starting out as a secretary/typist and ending as the associate editor of a wonderful magazine. I stopped working when we had our daughter. At first it was easy because she took so many naps. But as she became more mobile, it became harder. It was much harder than any job I had imagined. I began to feel as though I had lost who I was and wished for just a little time to myself. This continued until our son was born and then got worse! My point is this - it takes a lot more personal sacrifice, strength and determination to try to be a good mom and stay home with the kids than it does to go to a job. On the other hand, I can't imagine how difficult it must be for women who must work and then are expected to do all the "mom" things when they come home. One good thing about the break in my career is that I have a chance to start over. I can follow my passion with more schooling and a different path once the kids are in school.

Sachet
04-23-2006, 11:10 AM
When I was twenty I worked as a nanny for an affluent family in the suburbs of Chicago. He was in finance and she was an ER physician. While they were at work I ran their household and raised their adorable son from the time he was 4 months old until he turned 18 months. I was there for all the milestones that are so precious and irreplaceable at the instant they occur....the wonder of his first step, being called "Mama" (and having to teach him otherwise), etc. I was in heaven and loved every moment of a job that certainly didn't feel like one. His parents adored him and ensured that he was raised with love and attention in his own home. Knowing how his mother felt compelled to make a difference in the world by being a doctor, and the reality being that she did indeed save lives on a daily basis, I completely understood their choice to have a private nanny as their compromise.

Flash forward six years when I am working full-time in the medical field, while attending college at night. When I became pregnant (after years of trying and thinking it wasn't going to happen) I worked until the day I gave birth to our precious daughter. Even though I didn't want to, I *thought* that I had no choice, but to go back to work. And I did. I also cried the entire way to work from the daycare center and decided that I didn't care what sacrifices had to be made, there was no way I was going to continue leaving her in the hands of someone else everyday. Numerous sacrifices were made that many other family members (with two working couples who had two cars, bigger homes and vacations to Hawaii, etc.) did not understand. My husband was wonderfully supportive and we made it work. Our son was born three years later. Not once have I ever felt "beholden" to my husband. It never even occurred to me. The few times that I was sick or out of town and he was left in charge of running the household and caring for our two children, he was frazzled (to say the least :p ) by the time I was able to return to my various roles that jamespowers pointed out with such sensitivity and understanding.

I've homeschooled both children and my daughter is finishing up her Freshman year at college this year. My 16 year son will be attending a local college next year to participate in the Dual Enrollment program that many states offer to all public, private and homeschooled students. He'll receive three college credits per one high school credit and be able to transfer the college credits. It's a great way for kids to become acclimated to the college atmosphere while still at home with parental support and encouragement.

As a result of my son's emerging independence now I find that I feel the desire to return to the workforce. I interviewed this week for a position as a tutor for children with autism. It was extremely disconcerting to try and convey, in a professional and comprehensive manner, all of the skills and abilities that I have utilized in caring for my family over the years. The gap in my resume is not viewed in a positive light in the professional world. Fortunately, for this position, my homeschooling experience is seen as a bonus. Otherwise, it would be very challenging and that is frustrating. My family knows and respects what I have accomplished throughout the years in devoting my time to them, but the outside world often times diminishes the endeavors that many find to be worthwhile and admirable.

I have close friends who made entirely different choices and they made it work for their families, too. As Lincsong said "I've always believed that it is up to each couple to decide their comfort level." Naturally, that's going to differ from family to family based on so many things: childhood memories of growing up a certain way (be they positive or negative), career goals, educational preferences, budgetary constraints or freedoms....the list is endless.

JustJen said that "it's a privilege to be a stay-at-home mom", and I agree whole heartedly. It's one that I have never taken for granted. I also don't judge my friends who work outside the home, because I trust in their judgment for doing what they think is best for their family.

scotrace
04-23-2006, 11:22 AM
Excellent points Sachet, thanks.

One can spend years doing meaningful, hard work, proving an excellent work ethic, only to find that translating those skills and ethics into the sometimes goofy language of the job interview is a challange.

Pilgrim
04-24-2006, 02:13 PM
{A-hem...stepping up on soapbox....}

I don't assign any negative qualities to either women or men who stay home and support the family. It's their call, their choice, and I wish them the best.

My wife has a Master's degree, is at least as capable (if not more so) than I am, and she has no desire to stay at home. I don't either. Together (her Master's and my Ph.D.) we have about 24 years of our lives invested in college degrees, and we're both using those degrees to advantage in our work.

My wife's talents as an administrator earn us more then $70K a year, which makes a huge difference to our home setting, options and lifestyle. Neither she nor I have any interest in giving up that income. We have two great daughters who are just finishing high school, and there is no evidence thay have suffered by having two working parents. They're great, well-adjusted kids. We also have no nanny, just busy lives.

My kids have been in public schools all their lives, and they've done well, learned lots, have no problems, and are top academic performers. I'm FAR from convinced there is anything substantial wrong with public schools. I think public schools are a success in most areas and are the real strength of America, and I wish that conservatives and liberals both would get off their backs and stop imposing agendas (and standardized testing, which I think is 90% meaningless) on the schools. My suspicion is that most home schooling is done for political or religious reasons, both of which are none of my business...so I do my best not to worry about it. (This is NOT intended as a critical comment, just an opinion, and I've been both right and wrong before.)

Based partly on the above, I won't critize anyone for staying home and/or home schooling their kids, but neither am I receptive to comments from others about the shortcomings they perceive in the path my wife and I have chosen. Further, I have no interst in - or patience with - being proselytized by those who think their path is The Right And Only One.

I appreciate the respectful and thoughtful tone on this forum, and the recognition that people have different beliefs and approaches to life. This is just a capsule view of my family's take on it.

Whew....

Deponent yieldeth soapbox at this time.;)

jamespowers
04-24-2006, 04:10 PM
My kids have been in public schools all their lives, and they've done well, learned lots, have no problems, and are top academic performers. I'm FAR from convinced there is anything substantial wrong with public schools. I think public schools are a success in most areas and are the real strength of America, and I wish that conservatives and liberals both would get off their backs and stop imposing agendas (and standardized testing, which I think is 90% meaningless) on the schools. My suspicion is that most home schooling is done for political or religious reasons, both of which are none of my business...so I do my best not to worry about it. (This is NOT intended as a critical comment, just an opinion, and I've been both right and wrong before.)

Come out here man. I'll take you on the Tour of Academic Shame.
Thank God you have a decent school system where you are. That isn't the case everywhere. :cheers1:

Regards to all,

J

John in Covina
04-24-2006, 04:46 PM
{My wife has a Master's degree, is at least as capable (if not more so) than I am, and she has no desire to stay at home. I don't either. Together (her Master's and my Ph.D.) we have about 24 years of our lives invested in college degrees, and we're both using those degrees to advantage in our work.

Standardized testing, which I think is 90% meaningless

Quick question: did either your wife or you use / take the SAT's or the other College tests to get into college to get the degrees? I was just wondering if those are meaningless, too. Is any testing necesary? How do you track improvement or competence. Does this apply to Surgeons?

Sometimes I think most college degrees are meaningless, since I have seen more well run companies get totally screwed up by people that have degrees as opposed to life experience.

I know more people that are working in areas that are COMPLETELY unrelated to what they majored in, in college

ArrowCollarMan
04-24-2006, 05:28 PM
Oh my god I hate the stadardized testing! Most of you seem to be old enough to never have been through it. Its not really hard...its just pointless and annoying. They make it harder and harder to get along in life it seems. In order to get any decent job one must go through college and even then it seems if you get married and support a family both husband and wife must work. It seems like you can't own a home and work in a place like a factory anymore. Arrg, what happened?

Pilgrim
04-24-2006, 07:20 PM
Quick question: did either your wife or you use / take the SAT's or the other College tests to get into college to get the degrees? I was just wondering if those are meaningless, too. Is any testing necesary? How do you track improvement or competence. Does this apply to Surgeons?

Sometimes I think most college degrees are meaningless, since I have seen more well run companies get totally screwed up by people that have degrees as opposed to life experience.

I know more people that are working in areas that are COMPLETELY unrelated to what they majored in, in college

John asks good questions! Bear with me and I'll note this is: :offtopic:

There are tests for graduate admissions - SAT is relevant to undergrad admissions. In 1987 (14 years after I coompleted my B.A.) I just walked in and took the GRE - Graduate Record Exam. Didn't study for it, just took it - passed with flying colors. It's not that tough.

However, do I think that standardized exams are relevant for GRADUATE admissions? Partly, but not as an exclusive measure of potential. Maybe if the student is shiny new from his/her undergrad degree they make sense. But if the student has been out in the world for 10+ years, their life and job experience is more relevant than standardized testing, and a better predictor of success in a graduate program. I've seen lots of motivated adults with marginal GRE scores sail through graduate degrees...because they're goal-driven and know how to work at their studies.

My beef with standardized testing is that in many cases, we don't know what the tests measure. Just because we test doesn't mean we're testing for anything meaningful. The ACT and SAT exams actually are among the best.

It's the standardized tests in various states that I think are worthless. Do you know who creates them? I don't. That automatically makes them suspect to me. Their effect is more political than functional, serving that political boondoggle called No Child Left Behind...or before NCLB, the agendas of the legislatures in states which had their own testing. The test effect is to penalize school districts with weak test results; rather than providing more resources and better teachers to low-achieving schools, those schools are penalized, lose resources, and predictably continue to go downhill. (I can also tell you a bit about the training NCLB requires teachers to have in order to be "highly qualified" - 24 credits per specialty, which is almost enough for a master's degree. Graduate study probably costs them $300-$400 per credit. What genius on Bush's staff decided that you need 24 graduate credits of study to be "highly quqalified" in teaching History?...and 24 more to teach Science....and 24 more to teach Math? How many K-12 teachers can afford to meet those arbitrary standards to become "highly qualified" at $7,000 to $10,000 per specialization?)

You know the saying "figures don't lie, but liars figure"? The same can be said for tests - except tests themselves lie, if they don't actually measure the things they claim to measure.

Most people now change careers at least five times, so degrees seldom connect directly to their career late in life. But they show you can learn, and they give you a starting point and show that you're trained to think a bit. So there is virtu e to them.

Medical stuff like surgery falls into more than one domain of learning, so it's more complex, but no, I don't want my surgeon to have a Ph.D. in fine art. I agree with your implicit assumption that he/she needs hands-on training. But do you want to trust a standardized test to show sugrical competency? I don't.

And JP - I know there are public school districts that are unsuccessful. I'm just not convinced that most of the school districts in the US fit that category. There are plenty of places where public schools are doing a good job.

ArrowCollarMan, I think the answer is that the US is exporting manufacturing jobs (something many see as a danger sign) and retaining knowledge and service-based jobs. Of the two, the knowledge-based jobs pay better, but they also require more education. It's no lie that a college education (no matter what age you are) is the best investment you can make in your earning power.

I hope that's reasonably responsive...dinner's ready, gotta go.

Lena_Horne
04-24-2006, 08:41 PM
I guess something that I'm wondering, as someone who plans to become a housewife is, does the back and forth of a two-career household affect your personal life at all? As the article stated there seems to be a great deal of marriages that aren't satisfied and/or are too tired to have relations even if they wanted to because they are stretched so thin. Is this some kind of bogus myth or is there some mettle behind the rantings?

L_H

Pilgrim
04-24-2006, 08:47 PM
I think that talking with each other and being very honest about your personal goals and desires is important.

Some marriages would be stressed by the wife staying at home - others would be stressed by the wife working. It depends on the goals and wishes of the people involved. When a husband and wife both mave invested years of time in pursuing education or job skills, it's less likely that one or the other parent will want tos tay home. That's not to say impossible, just much less likely. Other factors are income and lifestyle goals; some of them require two incomes, others do not.

Does it affect your personal life at all? Sure it does, and any decision you make - work outside the home or not - will have a major impact on your personal life. My wife and I have a solid personal relationship partly because we both work. I respect the work she does, and she respects mine. We use each other as sounding boards. Frankly, I think this works better than if she were a full-time homemaker and I was working - she wouldn't relate as well to what I do, and I would probably not understand her situation as well as I do. I think we have a better personal life because we're colleagues at the university and have both personal and professional lives to manage. But that's the kind of people we are. If what she wanted to do was stay home, I'd support that - but that has never been her interest, and I knew it when I married her.

If both partners are career-oriented, then today's world allows you to pursue that, have a family and succeed at both. Yes, you have to work at it, and there will be nights when you just turn over and go to sleep - but that's not all nights. You can still make time for each other.

My answer is that the best answer depends on the people involved. They should talk about their career and family goals - and if those change, don't hide it, get them out in the open and work it out.

Mrs. MK
04-24-2006, 10:29 PM
My wife stays at home with our little girl that is about to turn 2 in May. She is a gourmet chef, a banker, seamstress, counselor, master gardener, strategic planner, master organizer, in addition to being the mother of our child. Stay at home moms are the hardest working unpaid people around, and they have my utmost respect.

My wife works harder in one day than I do all week.

Not only do we multi-specialists have to do all these things, but we do them while being a full-time care-giver for people who do unreasonable and unexpected things - like run out in the front yard with no clothing, or scream at the top of their lungs in the store when they can't have the toy of their choice, etc. I have read some things about full-time caregivers for adults, about how they burn out. But do people acknowledge moms who are burned out, and is that even allowed? The cooking, cleaning, transportation, purchasing, doctoring, etc. is all the easy stuff! Reasoning with a three-year-old...that's another story.
Sincerely,
Mrs. MK

mysterygal
04-24-2006, 10:33 PM
There is no reasoning with a three year old! :D there is a lot you find out after the baby comes and you wonder, this wasn't in the pamplet! I believe the work is more mentaly exhausting than physically ...nap times are good for both kid and mom :)

mysterygal
04-24-2006, 10:34 PM
burned out? I thought what we did all day was sit on the couch watching soap operas and eating bon bons :rolleyes:

Mrs. MK
04-24-2006, 10:35 PM
How do the stay at home mothers feel about being beholden to the man for EVERYthing that costs money? (personally i would hate to rely on someone else for all my material needs.) And does it cause friction when she wishes to treat herself with HIS hard earned money? I imagine it could with a more money-obsessed man ...just wondrin' - bk

Dear BK,

I don't at all feel bad because my husband and I are a team. We each have a role, neither one is more or less important. I may depend on him for everything that costs money, but we don't have the attitude that everything is his. He is also dependent on me - caring for our children, maintaining our home, keeping track of OUR bills and finances, making sure he has clean clothes to wear to work. Some couples split the duties differently, but that is just how it works for us. An attitude of teamwork is the key, in my opinion.

Sincerely, Mrs. MK

John in Covina
04-24-2006, 10:50 PM
I just envision a device for mothers where it is a mix of a taser stun gun and one of the anti bark electronic collars but like a parachute harness and mom has the remote set on stun.

Parents time to get your hellion a Small Child Electronic Compliance Harness with eight great settings! Set on stun for most indoor times. Instant nap time, and I give you something to cry about are 3 of the favorite settings.

mysterygal
04-24-2006, 11:27 PM
I feel almost bad that I laughed at that post! that's one thing I love about Spring...the sun is out and the kids can run all they want all day..fresh air is the best way to get those little tikes tired...I remember seeing mom's walking around with thier kids on a leash and thinking what an awful thing to do to a kid, now, after having a couple of my own. lo and behold I got myself one too :)

scotrace
04-25-2006, 05:14 AM
Somehow I don't think that young couples who want children ever fantasize about projectile bowel movements, stepping on Barbie high heels at 3AM, being thrown up on (or at, or over), short people who rudely turn down steak and go get a bowl of Cocoa-Puffs, nose picking, skid marks, plastic toys the size of your first car all over the yard, Sharpy marker on your best dress, or rooms that are like traversing an impromptu Civil War hospital.

Ah... but those little oatmeal kisses. In a blink, they're gone.

Nathan Flowers
04-25-2006, 05:54 AM
Not only do we multi-specialists have to do all these things, but we do them while being a full-time care-giver for people who do unreasonable and unexpected things - like run out in the front yard with no clothing, or scream at the top of their lungs in the store when they can't have the toy of their choice, etc. I have read some things about full-time caregivers for adults, about how they burn out. But do people acknowledge moms who are burned out, and is that even allowed? The cooking, cleaning, transportation, purchasing, doctoring, etc. is all the easy stuff! Reasoning with a three-year-old...that's another story.
Sincerely,
Mrs. MK

That is very very true. I have never thought about comparing it to a caretaker for an adult, but that is a fantastic comparison. We're seeing the completely irrational behavior in our 23 month old right now. Stuff like trying to stand on top of her rocking chair, trying to pull the cats' tails off, and throwing herself down on the floor crying because she can only have a small piece of cheese and not the whole block... these are just a small sample of what Mrs. Zohar has to deal with all day long.

mysterygal
04-25-2006, 10:30 AM
Somehow I don't think that young couples who want children ever fantasize about projectile bowel movements, stepping on Barbie high heels at 3AM, being thrown up on (or at, or over), short people who rudely turn down steak and go get a bowl of Cocoa-Puffs, nose picking, skid marks, plastic toys the size of your first car all over the yard, Sharpy marker on your best dress, or rooms that are like traversing an impromptu Civil War hospital.

Ah... but those little oatmeal kisses. In a blink, they're gone.
that's why I think babysitting when your younger is a good idea. I was totally ignorant of what was involved with babies....my picture was a cute cuddly thing that slept all night and smiles and looked cute....my girl was cute and cuddly but also had colic for her first year and had a horrible time teething...bad wake up call!

John in Covina
04-25-2006, 10:51 AM
A friend of mine said her son cried, all the time. She took him to the doctor and they said physically he's fine. So they said he's just very sensative emotionally and needed a lot of hands on, and holding to feel safe and secure.

She describe the tearful times as 3 states of Tony:
Crying!
Just finished crying!
Getting ready to cry!

In between crying, he ate and slept.

When he just about hit 3 he stopped crying and moved on to more playing and learning and having fun.

mysterygal
04-25-2006, 11:20 AM
lol that sounds exactly how my first child was! Three has seemed to be the magical number when you finally get your little angel back..I feel sooo sorry for any parent that has to go through that!

jamespowers
04-25-2006, 12:44 PM
Not only do we multi-specialists have to do all these things, but we do them while being a full-time care-giver for people who do unreasonable and unexpected things - like run out in the front yard with no clothing, or scream at the top of their lungs in the store when they can't have the toy of their choice, etc. I have read some things about full-time caregivers for adults, about how they burn out. But do people acknowledge moms who are burned out, and is that even allowed? The cooking, cleaning, transportation, purchasing, doctoring, etc. is all the easy stuff! Reasoning with a three-year-old...that's another story.
Sincerely,
Mrs. MK

That is probably the best way to describe what a stay at home mother really has to put up with. The physical is easy next to the mental anguish it can sometimes cause. ;) At least when you work with adults there is some semblance of logic to their actions.

Regards,

J

jamespowers
04-25-2006, 12:50 PM
lol that sounds exactly how my first child was! Three has seemed to be the magical number when you finally get your little angel back..I feel sooo sorry for any parent that has to go through that!

Then ten years later they revert back to the same thing. :p ;)

Regards,

J

mysterygal
04-25-2006, 05:10 PM
lol that's what I'm kind of afraid of...especially since I've got three girls to raise....the pms years are going to be scary :eek: Even though it is a hard job, I am so thankful for this opportunity, there's nothing better than spending time with your kids, watching them have a great time, being there when they catch that first ball, you never get another chance for that moment. Being a parent is a huge responsibility, just not for the mother, the father plays a vital role in the family dynamic, if he's the one who works he teaches the kids good work ethics, and their role model for what a man should be.

ArrowCollarMan
04-25-2006, 06:11 PM
Yup. Proper human devlopment require a mother and father figure. They always say a boys first love is his mother (also, a girls frist love is her father). Just by a paretns actions a child learns how to deal with people once they get into the real world. I find it strange that a parent unwittingly passes things onto their children.

Nora Charles
04-25-2006, 06:39 PM
Somehow I don't think that young couples who want children ever fantasize about projectile bowel movements, stepping on Barbie high heels at 3AM, being thrown up on (or at, or over), short people who rudely turn down steak and go get a bowl of Cocoa-Puffs, nose picking, skid marks, plastic toys the size of your first car all over the yard, Sharpy marker on your best dress, or rooms that are like traversing an impromptu Civil War hospital.



Ah..yes, but it all seems worth it when they hug and kiss you and tell you they love you...

jamespowers
04-25-2006, 09:41 PM
lol that's what I'm kind of afraid of...especially since I've got three girls to raise....the pms years are going to be scary :eek: Even though it is a hard job, I am so thankful for this opportunity, there's nothing better than spending time with your kids, watching them have a great time, being there when they catch that first ball, you never get another chance for that moment. Being a parent is a huge responsibility, just not for the mother, the father plays a vital role in the family dynamic, if he's the one who works he teaches the kids good work ethics, and their role model for what a man should be.

My mother used to say the same things you did about being there for the milestones in their lives. I would elaborate but some are embarassing. I mean me pilfering a flower from a garden for her on the way home from grade school was a big thing to her.
The father's role sure cannot be downplayed. His interactions with the mother set an example that stays with the child for a lifetime---especially the boys. I find myself using some of his lines to my mother on my wife. :p The father can set an example for the boys and how to treat the fair sex and the converse is also true.

Regards,

J

Lincsong
04-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I'm so glad that so many couples are viewing the marriage as a "team" and "partnership". I've see so many golden agers where one so dominated the other that I just scratch my head and think; "if they're happy then so be it". :rolleyes: I mean dominate as in the husband giving the wife the check and wife giving him an allowance of say $20 a week for spending money, not allowing the husband to purchase anything (food included) unless she was present. Or the husbands in my earlier post who refused to put the wife's name on the house or let her know where the bank account was located. (Although, I've met some husbands who also had no clue as to the size of the bank account.) I'm glad that when my grandfather died my grandmother continued on for 23 years and didn't need any help from anyone. And I mean ANYONE: Government, kids, grandkids or siblings.:eusa_clap She was quite the pistol.

Angelicious
04-27-2006, 03:02 AM
Ha, this at-home-mum thing is funny, like an anthropology lecture on a culture I've never encountered before... :p

In my world, "stay-at-home mum" is something that, like domestic home help, happens to Women Who Marry Well. It can also happen to Women Who Budget Well And Don't Demand Much From Life, but those are a rare & admirable species...

Anyway:


However, studies have shown that children who were placed in daycare since infancy learn to talk and walk at a slower rate,
Funnily enough, that also happens to children who have a lot of older siblings (or even just one very assertive older sibling).

Just a thought...

mysterygal
04-27-2006, 08:02 AM
lol pilfering flowers, that brings back memories...I did that a lot as a kid, my mom would always get that scolding look, knowing it was someone else's flowers, which later I learned just to say they were from some field I happened to walk by...but she's always put them in a vase and admire them until they wilted.
I can't imagine going into parenting without it being a partnership. There's a support there that's invaluable. There is so much that either parent can instill into a child..and seeing mom and dad happy shows what a marriage should look like.
My husband is definetely not rich, makes decent money, but me staying at home was something we decided on early on in marriage...both of us had stay at home mom's and felt we wanted the same for our children.

jamespowers
04-27-2006, 09:30 AM
she'd always put them in a vase and admire them until they wilted.
I can't imagine going into parenting without it being a partnership. There's a support there that's invaluable. There is so much that either parent can instill into a child..and seeing mom and dad happy shows what a marriage should look like.
My husband is definitely not rich, makes decent money, but me staying at home was something we decided on early on in marriage...both of us had stay at home mom's and felt we wanted the same for our children.

Ditto to that. Makes sense to me. ;)

Regards,

J

Roger
04-27-2006, 10:08 AM
But what constitutes "happiness"?

RedPop4
04-27-2006, 10:09 AM
Nora Charles.....VERY well said and quoted.

mysterygal
04-27-2006, 10:16 AM
happiness, to me, is having peace and joy no matter what's going on

jamespowers
04-27-2006, 10:27 AM
From Wikipedia:

"Happiness is a prolonged or lasting emotional or affective state that feels good or pleasing. Overlapping states or experiences associated with happiness include wellbeing, joy, sexual pleasure, delight, health, safety and love, while contrasting ones include suffering, sadness, grief, and pain.

Western Society
In western society, especially in North America, happiness is defined through the achievement of several ideals. These ideals can include a successful, healthy, beautiful family; creating great monetary wealth for oneself; being physically beautiful even through old age; and maintaining one's intelligence and wit. As well, happiness is sometimes defined as always being current according to the latest cultural fads. People who are not updated are seen as unhappy because they are old or out of date, or because they do not have benefit of the fad. Cultural fads can include keeping one's clothes in fashion, going to the latest clubs, restaurants or bars, buying consumer products seen as trendy or cool, or changing a hair style so that it is current. However, some people disagree with these preceding ideals because they consider them too superficial, consumerist and unsatisfying. Such people prefer a life that is personally defined, fulfilled, natural, peaceful, or that detracts in some way from these societal norms. For Americans living in the United States, the happy or ideal life is sometimes referred to as the American dream, which states that through hard work, dedication, and sacrifice, anyone can go from rags to riches. Writers such as Horatio Alger promoted this idea."

Sort of hits it on the head for me. :cheers1:

Regards,

J

Paisley
04-27-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm so glad that so many couples are viewing the marriage as a "team" and "partnership". I've see so many golden agers were one so dominated the other that I just scratch my head and think; "if they're happy then so be it". :rolleyes:

Lincsong, you might be interested to read the book Millionaire Women Next Door. The author mentions that widows whose husbands were in charge of all financial matters were frightened when their husbands died, and these widows actually died sooner than widows who had some control and knowledge of their finances. Not that he advises women against being housewives--just that they need to know not only how to pay the bills and balance a checkbook, but how to invest, how to find a good advisor, etc.

Awhile back, an acquaintance bought something from me for a few dollars, and had to go to her boyfriend for the money! He gave it readily, and he seems like a nice guy, but I couldn't live like that.

My brother and his wife have a good system: separate checking accounts.

BTW, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal a few days ago about Caitlin Flanagan's new book, To Hell with All That. I was surprised to learn that Flanagan has a nanny whom she summons to clean up the kids' sickness while Flanagan supervises.

Marc Chevalier
04-27-2006, 11:22 AM
I was surprised to learn that Flanagan has a nanny whom she summons to clean up the kids' sickness while Flanagan supervises.

One of those jobs that affluent Americans (or rather, the Caitlin Flanagans of this world) won't do. Not even when the child is their own.


.

mysterygal
04-27-2006, 11:26 AM
I can't think of a single person who wants to do that...it's more of a matter of you just got to..come on, some of the things that come out of a kid is just plain gross

Marc Chevalier
04-27-2006, 11:30 AM
Well, maybe some would want to ... but I don't want to know them.

Paisley
04-27-2006, 11:30 AM
If you think picking other people's flowers is OK, YOU pay $5, $10, or $30 for a plant, plant it, water it, mulch it, fertilize it, nurture it, and see if you don't mind when somebody picks it. You want flowers, right now, without the work? Go to the florist and pay for them.

scotrace
04-27-2006, 11:55 AM
If you think picking other people's flowers is OK, YOU pay $5, $10, or $30 for a plant, plant it, water it, mulch it, fertilize it, nurture it, and see if you don't mind when somebody picks it. You want flowers, right now, without the work? Go to the florist and pay for them.

Easy there... not a big deal and way off topic.

scotrace
04-27-2006, 11:56 AM
..come on, some of the things that come out of a kid is just plain gross

And carpet staining.


Forever.

jamespowers
04-27-2006, 12:02 PM
If you think picking other people's flowers is OK, YOU pay $5, $10, or $30 for a plant, plant it, water it, mulch it, fertilize it, nurture it, and see if you don't mind when somebody picks it. You want flowers, right now, without the work? Go to the florist and pay for them.

Happens to me all the time with the plants I pay way more than $30 for. I am happy to share them. They are only going to fade and die anyway. Why not let a child have something to give his mother? My neighbors did the same for me when I was a child. I am only happy to return the favor. Let me guess---You are going to hold up a 6 year old for $3. :rolleyes: :offtopic:

Regards,

J

Marc Chevalier
04-27-2006, 12:05 PM
Um, I think that Paisley was making an analogy between flower-growing and child-rearing, though I didn't get the full gist of her point.

Roger
04-27-2006, 01:35 PM
happiness, to me, is having peace and joy no matter what's going on
Exactly. Are you related to my wife?;)

Paisley
04-27-2006, 02:28 PM
Happens to me all the time with the plants I pay way more than $30 for. I am happy to share them. They are only going to fade and die anyway. Why not let a child have something to give his mother? My neighbors did the same for me when I was a child. I am only happy to return the favor. Let me guess---You are going to hold up a 6 year old for $3. :rolleyes: :offtopic:

Regards,

J

When the flowers are left unpicked, everybody can enjoy them. I was taught to ask before taking, I give flowers to people I know, and the pickers I'm thinking of are way over 6 years old. Sorry for wandering off topic, though.

Lincsong
04-27-2006, 07:03 PM
A while back, an acquaintance bought something from me for a few dollars, and had to go to her boyfriend for the money! He gave it readily, and he seems like a nice guy, but I couldn't live like that.

My brother and his wife have a good system: separate checking accounts.

In a Community Property State like California, separate checking accounts aren't really separate. But I get your idea.

Down the street from my parents, about oh 15 years ago, one of the neighbors retired. He was a truck driver and was able to retire at age 56. His wife was a stay at home wife and they had one grown daughter. Their $12,000 house was paid for and so was the cabin in the Sierra Nevada. He didn't take survivors benefits and had no life insurance. He dropped dead of a heart attack SIX months after retiring. :eek: The wife had no income coming into the house. Until she sold that cabin which took about eight months, she was really struggling because she didn't have a clue as what to do. :( That's why it is so important that a marriage is treated like a partnership where both spouses know exactly what is going on.:)

Pilgrim
04-28-2006, 08:01 AM
That's why it is so important that a marriage is treated like a partnership where both spouses know exactly what is going on.

I agree, and the real key here is that the two people involved MUST treat the relationship this way. However, there are husbands who insist on dominating these aspects of the relationship,and wives who are willing to take a back seat. Your story is a great example of why this is a bad decision on both parts.

To quote the thread title, part of the Wifely Duties is to be a full partner in the relationship, not a subservient junior partner. Part of the Husbandly Duties is to help and build that kind of relationship.

Pilgrim
04-28-2006, 08:02 AM
(Duplicate removed)

mysterygal
04-28-2006, 09:15 AM
When the flowers are left unpicked, everybody can enjoy them. I was taught to ask before taking, I give flowers to people I know, and the pickers I'm thinking of are way over 6 years old. Sorry for wandering off topic, though.
looks like there needs to be some clarification here....I was not condoning picking other people's flowers, just remembering a time as a kid when I did that. If my kids were to do that they would most certainly get in trouble.

Baron Kurtz
04-28-2006, 09:40 AM
This is why i stick to wildflowers ...

bk

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 10:23 AM
This is why i stick to wildflowers ...

At your age? Tightwad. :p Does the missus approve of this? :D ;)

Regards,

J

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 10:30 AM
I agree, and the real key here is that the two people involved MUST treat the relationship this way. However, there are husbands who insist on dominating these aspects of the relationship,and wives who are willing to take a back seat. Your story is a great example of why this is a bad decision on both parts.

To quote the thread title, part of the Wifely Duties is to be a full partner in the relationship, not a subservient junior partner. Part of the Husbandly Duties is to help and build that kind of relationship.

You also have to remember that in a relationship as in business, you have to play to each of your strengths. While my wife knows what we have and where, she could care less about my investment strategy and the like. Of course I have a degree in Finance and she has a degree in Psychology so we tend to play to our strengths. ;) Her interactions with people and judgement of character is likely going to be far better than mine.
A relationship is never 50/50 all the time. It changes with the situation. I am not likely to ask my wife to go out and break up cement in the backyard so that is 100% mine---as an example. :p Flexibility in a relationship is the key in most situations.

Regards,

J

Baron Kurtz
04-28-2006, 12:20 PM
At your age? Tightwad. :p Does the missus approve of this? :D ;)

Regards,

J

Who says the flowers are for the trouble 'n strife? I pick 'em for me.

She's learned to give up on romanticism ... It's just not me.

bk

mysterygal
04-28-2006, 01:31 PM
I don't believe in the 50/50 relationship at all. It's 100% on both parts...otherwise you can easily slip into a mentality of only doing so much and waiting until your spouse catches up to what you deam as fair

mysterygal
04-28-2006, 01:33 PM
Who says the flowers are for the trouble 'n strife? I pick 'em for me.

She's learned to give up on romanticism ... It's just not me.

bk
even the 'little stuff' can be romantic

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 01:58 PM
I don't believe in the 50/50 relationship at all. It's 100% on both parts...otherwise you can easily slip into a mentality of only doing so much and waiting until your spouse catches up to what you deam as fair

Hahahha! That is sort of what I meant. Sometimes one does more than the other and sometimes one does less. If your spouse needs help catching up then you end up doing more to help. If I help does that mean I am doing 110%? :p That is why I used the unequal numbers instead of 100% each. ;)

Regards,

J

mysterygal
04-28-2006, 02:03 PM
I always try to keep in mind to do my best for the relationship, and not worry too much about what the other person is or isn't doing...although, there are some pretty sneaky tricks that get your guy jumping through hoops to please you though ;)

Marc Chevalier
04-28-2006, 02:19 PM
:eek: :mad: :rage:

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 02:29 PM
there are some pretty sneaky tricks that get your guy jumping through hoops to please you though ;)

And vice versa. :p :D

Regards,

J

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 04:06 PM
She's learned to give up on romanticism ... It's just not me.

bk

You can always learn. It makes things around the house much easier. ;)
Trouble n' strife? You sound like an Andy Capp cartoon. :p

Regards,

J

Marc Chevalier
04-28-2006, 04:09 PM
Trouble n' strife? You sound like an Andy Capp cartoon.

Gotta love that rhyming Cockney slang! http://www.phespirit.info/cockney/english_to_slang.htm


.

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 04:28 PM
Gotta love that rhyming Cockney slang! http://www.phespirit.info/cockney/english_to_slang.htm


.

Looks like old Doug McClure is going to be pretty mad when he sees his name there. :p :eek:

Regards,

J

Marc Chevalier
04-28-2006, 04:31 PM
He'll probably feel like Brad Pitt - Eartha Kitt - Tom Tit.

jamespowers
04-28-2006, 04:42 PM
He'll probably feel like Brad Pitt - Eartha Kitt - Tom Tit.

Brad Pitt deserves it but the other two don't. :p ;)

Regards,

J

Marc Chevalier
04-28-2006, 06:43 PM
Very true.

Lincsong
10-22-2006, 09:32 AM
:eusa_doh:

Lady Day
10-22-2006, 02:02 PM
Personally, I dont think it is possible to balance a career and raise children.


As a liberal thinker, I completely agree with this statement. :) But I also have to add some things.

I think that if you choose a family, then they take prority. Yet some women are unable to work their careers, and have to settle for jobs to support their children. There is a BIG difference.

For me, I want a career more than a family right now. I dont think its being selfish, or unreasonable, but honest. If I choose to have children (I think Id prefer adoption), then my life would be for them. Id hate it (not the children, but the fact that is the real choice that has to be made) but so be it.

Im also the type of person who does not think children are the only source of the future. If we want a good future we have to teach the people who are already here so they can give that knowledge to the children who are to come. Im a huge advocate on adult education.

LD

Section10
10-23-2006, 06:46 AM
Working mothers are a sad fact of the way we live in this society. My wife has been a day care worker for several years. She is a 'teacher' for kids 2 1/2 to 5 years. She has around 10 'students' and is supposed to teach them some kind of 'lesson or activity' every day. She is a glorified baby sitter. When kids act up all she can do is a 'time out' (whatever that is). The kids who misbehave get all the attention and the pleasant kids get ignored because they are well behaved and do not require the attention that the rowdy kids demand. Social interaction usually means the bigger kids pick on the smaller ones. She works very hard at home preparing lessons and activities plus she has to do all the paperwork, reports, letters and announcements to parents, etc. Usually at least 3 hours every evening including weekends for no pay. At work she gets $7.50/hour. She starts work at 6:AM and is done by noon. Some kids are in the day care for 11 hours or more. They come still asleep in their pajamas and she has to wake them up, dress them and give them breakfast. It's a challenge. Helluv a way to raise kids if you ask me.

RetroModelSari
10-23-2006, 06:49 AM
Well for my part: Id love to be a stay-home Mom.

When I was a child my mother had to go to work instead of staying home with me to make a living for her and me and I sort of felt lonely at times.

So if possible Id love to stay home - at least for the first years of my child and than start a half-time job or a home-business when my child is in school. I want to go and spend nice days with my children like going to the zoo and the park to play and helping them with the homework as my mother rarely had the time to do. I want to see them growing up and protect them from harm and teach them the important things in life as long as possible.

Roger
10-23-2006, 08:47 AM
Correct ladies, all too often the wife has to work. Unless the husband is making $100,000 plus a year by himself or one spouse has a parent bankrolling their mortgage few couples can afford to have the wife stay home.

Honey Doll
10-25-2006, 05:49 PM
The Fedora Lounge is awesome because I get wonderful exposure to viewpoints that I almost never see or hear about in my normal haunts (online or RL). For example, before today I had never, ever, ever met anyone who did not hate Caitlin Flanagan with the burning fury of a thousand suns.

I like to think that I am more poised than my friend who literally spat on the ground like my Italian grandmother whenever she said Ms. Flanagan's name, but my loathing of that woman's writing is no less than hers. I just don't approve of spitting in public.

I have great respect for housewives who want to be housewives. I have no respect at all for women of any stripe who want to force everyone in the world into whichever mold they happen to prefer. As for Ms. Flanagan... well, it is natural to feel that one's own choices are the superior choices, but such superiority complexes are unseemly and should be kept to the privacy of one's diary. Soapboxes are undignified, especially soapboxes that disparage other people and their chosen lifestyles.

BV

Amen sister!

Honey Doll

LizzieMaine
10-25-2006, 06:52 PM
I've read quite a bit of Caitlin Flanagan -- she's a regular contributor to the Atlantic Monthly, to which I'm a subscriber, and what bugs me about her isn't so much the views she expresses -- some of which I even agree with -- as it is the position of privilege from which she expresses them. An upper-class woman earning six figures annually from books and articles should perhaps be a bit more restrained in offering advice to families who are struggling to pay their rent and keep their kids in food and clothes.

Lena_Horne
10-25-2006, 08:26 PM
I've read quite a bit of Caitlin Flanagan -- she's a regular contributor to the Atlantic Monthly, to which I'm a subscriber, and what bugs me about her isn't so much the views she expresses -- some of which I even agree with -- as it is the position of privilege from which she expresses them. An upper-class woman earning six figures annually from books and articles should perhaps be a bit more restrained in offering advice to families who are struggling to pay their rent and keep their kids in food and clothes.

I wholly agree with you.:eusa_clap

L_H

humblestumble
10-26-2006, 01:07 AM
I saw that show! And I liked what the woman had to say as well. I actually like the thought of being a housewife to have dinner ready and the house clean, though I would HAVE To join a club or something to have a social life. It doesn't feel demeaning to me to do such a thing, but I do agree...it's hard in this day and age to have just one parent or spouse working to make ends meet.

Honey Doll
10-26-2006, 04:10 AM
Reading some of the posts here there seems to be a current of belief that being a working mother necessarily means that you are cutting your kids short and that the choice you have made to work is incorrect/bad/immoral-- or that if you didn't have to work, you just shouldn't.

My comments come from my own personal experience as I am both a working professional career gal and a mother of two preschoolers (daughter age 4 and son age 2). I can honestly say that I am a better mother and my children are happier, more content because I am a working mother. My children are incredibly intelligent, social, charismatic little people. I could not possibly on my own sitting at home provide for them the stimulation that they receive through the high quality daycare center they are enrolled in. They are personable, well socialized, good mannered. My daughter is learning Spanish, German and Sign language. She receives instruction in ballet, gymnastics and goes to the library and other weekly field trips. She gets to play with her friends and receive a pre-k education. She has from an early age interacted and come to love adults and children of many backgrounds, races and beliefs.

My children have cousins who have been strictly in a stay at home setting who are very sweet and good natured, but shy and socially withdrawing by comparision.

I do not pull my kids out of bed at the crack of dawn and ship them off in their pjs. I do not leave them lingering at daycare long into the night. My daycare is a block from my office. When they were infants, I came over twice a day to nurse them and stayed home with them one day a week for the first year. When they have bad days-- I am called and am there within minutes. When the kids just need a bit more of me-- we take days off together. I was not given flexibility by my work-- I demanded it and got it. It cost me a one year delay in partnership, but I am there now. I got a remote computer connection from home on my laptop and surprisingly, most of my partners followed suit and hooked up from home to so that they could spent more time with their families. If my hours are lackluster, I can pick up a project from home here and there, or work during naps on days the kids are home sick or otherwise. I was a mold breaker and have proven to my colleages that being a mom does not mean you are half in the door, half out and that working from home or flexible hours is a legitimate alternative.

If I stayed at home, I would be an unfulfilled woman and would not have the same emotional resources to devote to my children that I do now. Frankly, I'm better at my job because I am a mom. It has helped me establish a firm sense of priority and organization. You simply have to be organized to do it all.

And yes, I have a home cooked meal on the table every night at 6 pm sharp, so don't be late for dinner.

Honey Doll

Section10
10-26-2006, 06:23 AM
It is hard to catagorize and everyone has valid examples which will prove their point. I have an 11 year old granddaughter who has never been to public school and she is absolutely fearless. Her parents are very socially active people and she is just as involved as they are. She is almost too brave. A couple weeks ago she and her father and I took a drive out to a railroad trestle that he wanted to photograph which was about a mile walk down the tracks. It is several hundred feet long and 80-90 feet high over a river. It is a deck plate girder style which means there is just a bare track with no sides at all. She unhesitatingly led us right out onto it and I had to tell her to stay in the middle because she wanted to balance on top of a rail as she walked.
So I guess everyone is different and all you can do is the best you can and hope for the best. Just be sure you are indeed doing the best you can.

LaMedicine
10-26-2006, 10:11 AM
Reading some of the posts here there seems to be a current of belief that being a working mother necessarily means that you are cutting your kids short and that the choice you have made to work is incorrect/bad/immoral-- or that if you didn't have to work, you just shouldn't.
.........If I stayed at home, I would be an unfulfilled woman and would not have the same emotional resources to devote to my children that I do now. Frankly, I'm better at my job because I am a mom. It has helped me establish a firm sense of priority and organization. You simply have to be organized to do it all.

And yes, I have a home cooked meal on the table every night at 6 pm sharp, so don't be late for dinner.

Honey Doll
:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
Honey Doll, you are a wonderful mother all around.
I too have kept a career (for over 30 years) and raised kids as well. I know I am a better doctor for it, and I know I am a better mother for it as well. The firm sense of priority and organization is what makes it all work. While my male colleagues were barreling down their way towards PhD to add to their list, I took that route slowly, because I took the time I needed for my children. I eventually did get my PhD, but 10 years later than my male counterparts. I didn't mind.

I respect those who choose to stay at home, too. Organizing a home is not an easy task. Still, there are women who do better with something outside, while others do better inside. It's a matter of choice, and also a matter of doing your best whatsoever you do. Whatever choice others make for themselve, I respect them. However I will suffer no fools who dare try to tell me that I'm wronging my children, because I know my husband and I are doing (did, since they are full fledged adults now) our best for them as parents, and the children's needs came first whatever there was.

Lena_Horne
10-26-2006, 12:30 PM
I apologize if anyone felt alienated in this thread, that wasn't my intention at all. Strangely enough, it is women such as I, who feel that their "place," so to speak, is in the home that often feel as though a lot of society is frowning upon them. I have much more interest in putting a home together one day and raising children than I do in maintaining a life-long career. I do work now because I am only twenty and won't be getting married yet, but I would certainly want to leave work when I have children. I am at a wonderful company (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) that I know would be accomodating of my needs once I do have children, but I also know that deep down I want that other "taboo" experience. One of the more annoying residual-outcomes related to the feminist movement is that women of my ilk are seen in such a disdainful, ridiculous light. It is terrifically unfortunate.

L_H

Roger
10-26-2006, 01:32 PM
No one should feel alienated at all. I think a prior posts said that it should be up to each couple to determine their acceptable comfort level. If someone is comfortable at home; great! Likewise if someone is comfortable at work; also great! But, neither side should downplay the other.:)

nostalgic
09-26-2011, 05:13 PM
I will start by saying that I haven't read through 2/3rds of this thread but had to add my two cents :D
My husband and I have been married for almost a year (Halloween!) and have decided we don't want to wait much longer to start a family. We have bought a house which is saving us money every month, have used cars, budget, etc. However, there is absolutely no way that we could scrape by on one salary. It's not even an option to pinch here or there, it just can't be done as things stand. I always wanted to be a stay at home mom and love my days off when I can focus on the home. However, we don't see our situation changing in the near future and don't want to be much older before we have kids. We both have very supportive families so ideally we would be able to have baby stay with grandma etc. My husband also works on commission (opportunity to save!) and regularly applies to jobs that would allow him to earn enough for me to stay home. With the economy the way it is though, there are no guarantees.
All of this is basically to point out that I'm not one of the selfish women who want a career, kids, and to have it all, but that I would have to work to feed my family. Given the choice, I wouldn't work outside the home until my kids were in school, and even then I'd want something very uninvolved and part time. On the other hand, I have quite a few friends who are big into women's rights, career, etc and while I think that they should have the right to do whatever they choose, I don't know how beneficial it will be to their kids. We agree to disagree hahahaha. Overall I agree with the theme that women should have the right to do whatever they choose but maybe feminism has gone too far and should not criticize those who wish to do something "different." I think that made sense ;)

LoveMyHats2
09-26-2011, 07:01 PM
Just a fast thought, as it does happen in many families and it is not always a good thing. Some couples live their whole life just for their children. They allow their children to really run what they do in the household. If things get bad, they split up and have fronted the children with no example of real love and care between themselves as a couple. At times this may be due to some financial issues but all in all, myself, I think if a couple shows each other love and respect and each parent just does what they should do, it helps give a child a better role model then to always just put a child first.

C-dot
09-26-2011, 07:14 PM
Given the choice, I wouldn't work outside the home until my kids were in school, and even then I'd want something very uninvolved and part time. On the other hand, I have quite a few friends who are big into women's rights, career, etc and while I think that they should have the right to do whatever they choose, I don't know how beneficial it will be to their kids.

I agree with you, but just because a mother has a full-time career doesn't necessarily mean her children will suffer. I had a friend when I was about 13 who had four siblings aged 9-17, and their mother was single with a very busy job as an insurance claims adjuster. She ran a tidier and more organized home than many full time homemakers with less children, and all those five kids were strictly in line. They did well in school, knew their manners, and respected their mother. She always made time for them after hours, and even bought them a few luxuries. She was a hell of a mother!

Marzena
09-29-2011, 07:04 AM
I wonder why this subject is so contentious ? Nobody would argue very hard that "all women" should be, say athletes, or dancers, but when it comes to being a career woman or a full time homemaker , it seems that there should be only one option and one size must fit all.
I suspect that maybe this particular issue reflects a lot of our own hidden insecurities, fears, uncertainties, and it would feel safer to see our own choice publicly vindicated.

Iin fact so much depends on factors largely beyond one's control: the overall financial situation, the children's health and tolerance for parental absence, the ability to mobilise help within the family or outside, the other spouse's work load, availability of suitable childcare. I just do not see how all this variety could then be accomodated by just one recommendation: stay at home! or, go out, have a career.

Having said that, I do feel that at present the two options are not viewed with equal respect. The working mother definitely is the heroine of our times, while the full time Mommy is the lazy one without drive, talent, and ambition. But then one might remember how for ages the working mothers would be villified as heartless and unfeminine.

sheeplady
09-29-2011, 07:54 AM
Having said that, I do feel that at present the two options are not viewed with equal respect. The working mother definitely is the heroine of our times, while the full time Mommy is the lazy one without drive, talent, and ambition. But then one might remember how for ages the working mothers would be villified as heartless and unfeminine.

I always have a problem with this type of discussion because it seems to leave the fathers out. If you're in a heterosexual relationship and having babies, why is it always the woman who has her choices questioned? Why aren't more fathers socially "allowed" to be involved in this decision, or be questioned about their family choices?

If a woman wishes to stay at home, but cannot due to the financial situation of her family, why is she villified for leaving her children, and the man seemingly gets a pass by not even being mentioned? And vice versa- if a woman stays at home with her children, why is villified as being lazy, and the man seemingly gets a pass by not even being mentioned?

Last time I checked, most of these are decisions made by couples, not just the mother per say. (There are some exceptions, such as single mothers, but overall, these are couple decisions.)

C-dot
09-29-2011, 08:11 AM
If a woman wishes to stay at home, but cannot due to the financial situation of her family, why is she villified for leaving her children, and the man seemingly gets a pass by not even being mentioned? And vice versa- if a woman stays at home with her children, why is villified as being lazy, and the man seemingly gets a pass by not even being mentioned?

I believe it's because we're still viewing men and women in the traditional "a man is a breadwinner" and "a woman's place is in the home" ways. The only difference is, the woman's image is being fought tooth and nail.

It's interesting to note that stay at home fathers, and fathers who take parental leave from work, are snickered at by other men.

Marzena
09-29-2011, 08:13 AM
I agree - nowadays the woman's choice will be "wrong" whatever she decides to do.

C-dot
09-29-2011, 08:20 AM
I agree - nowadays the woman's choice will be "wrong" whatever she decides to do.

Yes - If you work, you're neglecting your children. If you stay at home, you're a burden on society. And ironically enough, the people who decide if your choice is wrong are other women. Like any decision you make in life, someone will always be upset. Social issues like this become contentious because other people, who have no business telling you what to do with your life, try to do just that. If more women kept their opinions to themselves about what other women do, perhaps we'd all be more comfortable with our decisions.

sheeplady
09-29-2011, 08:29 AM
I believe it's because we're still viewing men and women in the traditional "a man is a breadwinner" and "a woman's place is in the home" ways. The only difference is, the woman's image is being fought tooth and nail.

It's interesting to note that stay at home fathers, and fathers who take parental leave from work, are snickered at by other men.

I'm not saying that there aren't issues that men that choose to stay at home or have "non-traditional" roles face.

However, I find it interesting when discussing women and childcare that the decision to stay home or not is seen as being entirely made by the woman (and therefore she gets all the "blame" or all the "kudos"- typically all the blame). Obviously the decision is not always made by the woman alone in a vaccuum. We'd all probably think that someone who didn't consult his/her partner in making his/her decision about working or staying home is probably a bad partner.

Why is it always the woman who is characterized as such as such, and not the parents as a unit?

C-dot
09-29-2011, 08:36 AM
I'm not saying that there aren't issues that men that choose to stay at home or have "non-traditional" roles face.

Why is it always the woman who is characterized as such as such, and not the parents as a unit?

That was a new thought entirely, nothing to do with your post.

And like I say, because men have never fought in such numbers against their roles in a marriage, they aren't so much in debate. Also, like was discussed in another thread, women today are told to be independent, make their own decisions, and let no man influence that. Its no wonder that the assumption exists that its always up to the woman.

sheeplady
09-29-2011, 09:38 AM
That was a new thought entirely, nothing to do with your post.

And like I say, because men have never fought in such numbers against their roles in a marriage, they aren't so much in debate. Also, like was discussed in another thread, women today are told to be independent, make their own decisions, and let no man influence that. Its no wonder that the assumption exists that its always up to the woman.

Oh, sorry, C-Dot. I understood that was a new thought by you, and I wanted to let you know that I agreed, but clarify that I was talking about women in my post. I wasn't offended or anything like that and I didn't mean to offend you. I really do think that men who take on child caring roles often get the very short end of the stick. If us women think it is bad, I'd reccommend that we walk a mile in a primary father caretaker's shoes.

I find the whole thing rather frustrating. I consider myself a feminist. That means I believe that we should respect those choices that people make in things like childcare and that both sexes have the ability to make decisions that are intelligent. And if you read anybody's decisions on here- people who have made the choice to stay at home or work, you'll see that they often mention that perhaps they or their partner felt one way or the other, but ultimately "they" decided- even if it is something they decided before they ever had children or married or whatever. Nobody has come on here and said "I decided to stay at home/ work and told my partner to shove it."

I find the attitude that women are more valuable than men (and therefore they get to make this decision alone) to be deplorable. (Although some feminists feel that way, not everyone who identifies as a feminist does.) Both because that goes against my personal beliefs that people are of equal value, but also because that is not how it works in the real world. I think that, in some ways, the people who use the attitude that women get to make this decision alone, just want to be able blame other women for whatever decision is made. It's just hating on women in another form, with a nice window dressing of "female empowerment."

I agree with you, it is mainly other women who are downgrading, demonizing, and harassing other women about their family's choices.

C-dot
09-29-2011, 11:43 AM
Well written, and no offense taken whatsoever :)

Marriage really isn't seen as a partnership anymore, especially by men. The old "ball and chain" joke has become somewhat of a reality in their eyes. I'm not surprised at the high rate of divorce today, what with the whole female empowerment idea: Empowerment does not equal superiority. Women didn't want to be subservient to men, so why is society telling us it needs to be the other way around? How can you have a partnership that way?

The real ideas behind feminism has been butchered with time - Equality doesn't enter into it anymore, and look what it does to relationships. I think that's sad.

Gregg Axley
09-29-2011, 06:46 PM
We try to do things equally at home.
Oh sure I seem to be the one mowing the grass all the time, funny how that works out.
My wife actually makes more than I do.
Am I mad? No, I'm happy because it gives us a chance to save money and buy things if we want them, while giving to others that need them.
Sometimes duties at home don't work out evenly, but so what?
I'm thankful to have help doing things around here, it could be worse, I could be the ONLY one doing them. I work with a few guys that do this, and they ARE married. :eeek:

scottyrocks
09-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I have very mixed feelings about this topic, especially when it comes to children.

My daughter never went through separation anxiety because she was handed off to day care at 3 1/2 months old. I was quite torn about it at the time, giving my almost newborn to practical strangers, but my (ex-) wife had no qualms about going back to work, and there was no way she was going to be a stay at home mom.

As we moved from place to place, my daughter adapted perfectly to each new day care, with the exception of one, and it turned out that place wasn't right for her, as her entire personality changed shortly after she started attending there. We pulled her out and found a new place and her usual cheery bubbliness returned immediately.

My daughter turned out a very happy and independent sort. I'm not going to second guess what she'd be like if her mother was a stay-at-home-full-time.

shazzabanazza
09-30-2011, 03:34 PM
I personally think now days with the economic situation being what it is, its very difficult to have the opportunity to be a "stay at home mum". Im all for stay at home mothers, I think its great to be there in those vital years of the childs life. I was a stay at home mum for the first 2 years of both my childrens lives, then they started at preschool. Im now studying so they both go to preschool together and they are thriving. I do miss those days being at home with them though. Also I think that the modern generation has lost the skill of econimising, making the most of what they have and can afford on their budget...

jamespowers
09-30-2011, 03:46 PM
Gee, I kind of long for the days when familes lived close to each other. My grandmother worked as did my grandfather. My father stayed with my great-grandmother as she lived directly across the street. It was seamless everyday. Even the dog went with him. :D His uncles lived nearby as well not to mention his great-grandparents.

LoveMyHats2
09-30-2011, 04:39 PM
Well written, and no offense taken whatsoever :)

Marriage really isn't seen as a partnership anymore, especially by men. The old "ball and chain" joke has become somewhat of a reality in their eyes. I'm not surprised at the high rate of divorce today, what with the whole female empowerment idea: Empowerment does not equal superiority. Women didn't want to be subservient to men, so why is society telling us it needs to be the other way around? How can you have a partnership that way?

The real ideas behind feminism has been butchered with time - Equality doesn't enter into it anymore, and look what it does to relationships. I think that's sad.


I know you and many other gals may see that in most relationships, but I may have to ask for a pass on that considering my marriage. You see I know I am far blessed with one of the most wonderful ladies on this earth. I seem to find a way every day to cherish her, and would feel badly if even one day goes that I am not giving her something special (even if it is to do the damned dishes), or a diamond necklace, ring, new purse stuffed with "I love you" notes in it.

Then there is the political side of our relationship. We have none. No politics, We are a team, and I actually and sincerely can tell you I value everything she thinks, says, desires and decides. We discuss things to know what each other thinks, we have no issues about really "knowing" what we feel. We enjoy doing what we do and how we do things. She is half my soul and a majority of my life. I do not recall even one single time that anyone would say I do not allow her to have the final say so, as it is about the same choice I would have made if role reversed. In making the choice to marry my wife, I knew I had one very lovely, sensual, smart, happy, educated woman to share my last drop of life with, and I know if you asked her what she thinks about our relationship she would mimic my very words. Not everyone has a canyon between them in a relationship. What and how we live daily is a reflection on the both of us, and we are as successful in this as we are in every other aspect of life, including business and outside interest.

I could hand my Wife a $50,000.00 check and tell her to hit it, take a vacation on her own...and she would not want to go. Not that I would want her to do so either, my point we enjoy and work well in all ways. She is not my slave, nor am I hers. But our hearts and life are working well as one. There is no "I" or me me me,. in things, but an "Us"!

scottyrocks
09-30-2011, 05:33 PM
My marriage is a partnership, as well, for all the reasons you stated, LMH2. My wife and I are completely connected. We talk about everything and make sure that everyone is satisfied by the end of a conversation, otherwise we are not done. We worship each other and wouldn't have it any other way.

C-dot
09-30-2011, 05:36 PM
It's lovely to know there are men out there like you two. I like to think I have the same sort of relationship with my boyfriend, but I know if I mention marriage he'll hit the road. Every single guy I know has that fear of marriage - To quote one of these guys, "the end of life as we know it."

LoveMyHats2
09-30-2011, 05:53 PM
It's lovely to know there are men out there like you two. I like to think I have the same sort of relationship with my boyfriend, but I know if I mention marriage he'll hit the road. Every single guy I know has that fear of marriage - To quote one of these guys, "the end of life as we know it."

There will be one fellow along the course of your life, you may already know him, maybe not. Yet this is what he will have in his mind and heart about you.

I would walk from one end of this Country to the other for her, will she notice my effort to say I love and want you above all life itself?

He will think of you beyond what you look like now, and know the inner part of you is as beautiful to him as the outer. His life will be low and meaningless without being in your immediate presence, and he will not smother you but will build you up within a smile and warmth like you have never known.

When you see that man, C-Dot, you will know it. As he will know it about you. It is a mystery, but it happens and that is when you can have the very most awesome joy and love in a relationship, the kind that you may dream for today.

Never allow something less then this become so rooted that you are involved to such a level with a relationship that would shield the right one from happening.

Until you do find that one special guy for you or allow him to find you, just enjoy as much as you can and do not allow yourself to get abused, used or hurt!

LoveMyHats2
09-30-2011, 05:56 PM
My marriage is a partnership, as well, for all the reasons you stated, LMH2. My wife and I are completely connected. We talk about everything and make sure that everyone is satisfied by the end of a conversation, otherwise we are not done. We worship each other and wouldn't have it any other way.One of the most special words said, "we"...it is the "we", the "us" that is really going to make a difference.

One other thing that is very deep in my relationship, "we" have some faith in the Lord.

AtomicEraTom
09-30-2011, 08:40 PM
See, this baffles me. Guess it's because I'm from the old-school. I, for one, cannot wait to settle down, buy a house, have a family and live that 'American Dream' lifestyle, so to speak.


Every single guy I know has that fear of marriage - To quote one of these guys, "the end of life as we know it."

LoveMyHats2
09-30-2011, 09:11 PM
See, this baffles me. Guess it's because I'm from the old-school. I, for one, cannot wait to settle down, buy a house, have a family and live that 'American Dream' lifestyle, so to speak.It will happen. I think some of us may look for it too hard, but you know, when it is the right time and right person, it all falls into place.

shazzabanazza
09-30-2011, 11:06 PM
See, this baffles me. Guess it's because I'm from the old-school. I, for one, cannot wait to settle down, buy a house, have a family and live that 'American Dream' lifestyle, so to speak.

Your day will come Tom :) all good things come to those who wait :D

LoveMyHats2
10-01-2011, 05:35 AM
I think Tom will be fine...as long as he does not allow "Rosezilla" to get into his life and shred him in half!

scottyrocks
10-01-2011, 06:40 AM
Your day will come Tom :) all good things come to those who wait :D

A little 'go out and get it' never hurt either.:)

kamikat
10-01-2011, 06:58 AM
It's lovely to know there are men out there like you two. I like to think I have the same sort of relationship with my boyfriend, but I know if I mention marriage he'll hit the road. Every single guy I know has that fear of marriage - To quote one of these guys, "the end of life as we know it."
It could just be the age of your social circle. When I was 25, we were the only married couple in our social circle. I thought none of the guys I knew would ever get married. By 35, all of them were married. I think the average age for getting married is getting older. Just hang on!

sheeplady
10-01-2011, 07:42 AM
It could just be the age of your social circle. When I was 25, we were the only married couple in our social circle. I thought none of the guys I knew would ever get married. By 35, all of them were married. I think the average age for getting married is getting older. Just hang on!

This is quite true. When I got married there were very few people I knew who were married. About half the people I hung out with at age 25 are now married, and (most) of the rest I think are going to get married in the next couple years. (In fact, some of them have told me that they feel like there is increased social pressure on them to get married in the next couple years before they hit their mid or late 30s.)

I think a lot of people need to play around with and think over the idea of marriage first before they go ahead and "tie the knot." And if they see all of their friends getting married, eventually it seems like a good and logical thing that they get married too. I think it also helps for people to see that others in their 20s and 30s can pull off a good marriage through the examples of their friends. Some people need to see some examples before they make up their minds.

C-dot
10-01-2011, 08:34 AM
When you see that man, C-Dot, you will know it. As he will know it about you. It is a mystery, but it happens and that is when you can have the very most awesome joy and love in a relationship, the kind that you may dream for today.

How touching :) Thank-you very much for that, it helps renew my ever fading optimism.


It could just be the age of your social circle. When I was 25, we were the only married couple in our social circle. I thought none of the guys I knew would ever get married. By 35, all of them were married. I think the average age for getting married is getting older. Just hang on!

I think you're right - and thank-you. It frustrates me sometimes, because I really don't want to wait until I'm in my late thirties to find the right person and get married. But it seems my only choice, short of dating a man 15 years older than me :rolleyes:

If/when it does happen, my wifely duties will be to foster that same loving alliance that's been mentioned here!

AtomicEraTom
10-01-2011, 10:01 AM
Thanks everyone.

Ha! I can tell you stories about some women I've been dumb enough to get myself involved with that would curl your hair! They're the reason that sometimes as I'm sitting all alone in this empty house, I go. "Could be worse, she could be here nagging at me right now."

I know the right one will come along, eventually. Just playing the waiting game in the mean time.


I think Tom will be fine...as long as he does not allow "Rosezilla" to get into his life and shred him in half!

HoosierDaddy
10-01-2011, 10:29 AM
I suppose there are those of us that have a different concept of 'love'...or the mystical...mystery of finding the right one...and then knowing that "THAT' is the one. I tend to look at 'love'...as perhaps a little more involved. I remember meeting and dating my wife with infactuation. Similar interests..but yet so different in other ways. Sometimes opposites do attract? Enjoying each other....wanting to be with each other...sharing life(everything we did/do with one another)...rather than with anyone else. If she wasn't there to participate...there was great loss within most any new experience. However...life does get down to the basics...labor..struggles...irritations...the nitty gritty. Beyond infactuation...over these years..I 'learned' to truely love my wife...my partner. We had our children,together..shared the ups and downs...and did it our way..often reguardless of the world around us. When I look at her...I find deep appreciate and caring in my heart for who she was/is..and,probably most importantly,who she has become. For me this IS love. Also she has been willing to put up with me for 33 yrs. She is not a quitter..niether am I. The dedication was real and seemed to blossom throughout the years. Did I know for sure..right from the start..that she was absolutely the 'right one'? Well..I've seen many find a 'right one'..until the 'right one' did finally come along...uncluding me. I suppose 'love' can be different for each of us...and the 'you'll know the right one' idea as well. I think it is important to know especially two things...nothing is always a bed of roses....but then there is nothing that needs announce the end of the world either. I think that initual 'love'...liking similar things..dreams of a love...can turn into a more realistic carring and importance deep in the heart past starry eyed attraction. It's all in which holds the most importance. I like both...but if I had to chose just one..there is no contest.

LoveMyHats2
10-01-2011, 11:35 AM
I suppose there are those of us that have a different concept of 'love'...or the mystical...mystery of finding the right one...and then knowing that "THAT' is the one. I tend to look at 'love'...as perhaps a little more involved. I remember meeting and dating my wife with infactuation. Similar interests..but yet so different in other ways. Sometimes opposites do attract? Enjoying each other....wanting to be with each other...sharing life(everything we did/do with one another)...rather than with anyone else. If she wasn't there to participate...there was great loss within most any new experience. However...life does get down to the basics...labor..struggles...irritations...the nitty gritty. Beyond infactuation...over these years..I 'learned' to truely love my wife...my partner. We had our children,together..shared the ups and downs...and did it our way..often reguardless of the world around us. When I look at her...I find deep appreciate and caring in my heart for who she was/is..and,probably most importantly,who she has become. For me this IS love. Also she has been willing to put up with me for 33 yrs. She is not a quitter..niether am I. The dedication was real and seemed to blossom throughout the years. Did I know for sure..right from the start..that she was absolutely the 'right one'? Well..I've seen many find a 'right one'..until the 'right one' did finally come along...uncluding me. I suppose 'love' can be different for each of us...and the 'you'll know the right one' idea as well. I think it is important to know especially two things...nothing is always a bed of roses....but then there is nothing that needs announce the end of the world either. I think that initual 'love'...liking similar things..dreams of a love...can turn into a more realistic carring and importance deep in the heart past starry eyed attraction. It's all in which holds the most importance. I like both...but if I had to chose just one..there is no contest. Well stated, and for me, to place into words, if possible, everything that comes to mind about it, well, it would take more than a book to do so.

LoveMyHats2
10-01-2011, 11:37 AM
A little 'go out and get it' never hurt either.:)But that is where you always remember to wear your seat belt, be sure you have on clean underwear in case of emergency, and let family know where you are at and when you are heading home!

shazzabanazza
10-01-2011, 12:05 PM
A little 'go out and get it' never hurt either.:)

:lol: very true indeed..

scottyrocks
10-01-2011, 12:47 PM
But that is where you always remember to wear your seat belt, be sure you have on clean underwear in case of emergency, and let family know where you are at and when you are heading home!

And take your cell phone. This is 2011, ya know. ;)

LoveMyHats2
10-01-2011, 01:32 PM
And take your cell phone. This is 2011, ya know. ;) Early American Indians, used smoke signals, so yeah the cell phone is good!

Black Dahlia
10-02-2011, 12:40 AM
Hmmm, a bit confused in this thread...it's about wifely duties or about finding a wife? ha ha

X
BD

LoveMyHats2
10-02-2011, 06:53 AM
Hmmm, a bit confused in this thread...it's about wifely duties or about finding a wife? ha ha

X
BDI think perhaps, someone wanted to express the need for a wife, so she could have some wifely duties!

C-dot
10-02-2011, 07:35 AM
Hmmm, a bit confused in this thread...it's about wifely duties or about finding a wife? ha ha

X
BD

As usual, things have gotten slightly askew lol

LoveMyHats2
10-02-2011, 08:13 AM
As usual, things have gotten slightly askew lolWell in some ways, Wifely Duties can include helping un-askew certain things around the home or in life.

One example may be, like: "My Husband needed me to get his neck tie straight, as the way he tied it, it looked rather askewed"!

Another example, looking at things stored in the closet: "Drats, things have just been tossed all over in that closet and so much an askewed mess, that I will have to make sure that it gets organized better".

Not that these examples should be made the "Wifes" problems to fix.

"Oh Herman, is that your mess, you left everything so askewed, and if you do not straighten it out, there will be hell to pay" (This example probably is the more popular and true one I can think of). We all know a "Herman" or two....

jamespowers
10-02-2011, 01:51 PM
They're the reason that sometimes as I'm sitting all alone in this empty house, I go. "Could be worse, she could be here nagging at me right now."

Oh yeah. That would be bad.:eeek::eusa_doh:

Black Dahlia
10-02-2011, 02:37 PM
*lol* Askew and akimbo...always on FL. :) :) :)
X
BD

HoosierDaddy
10-02-2011, 02:45 PM
Askew...!!
'God Bless You'..! :D

V.C. Brunswick
10-02-2011, 02:51 PM
I'm sitting all alone in this empty house, I go. "Could be worse, she could be here nagging at me right now."

You and me both! lol Though I'm not quite sure if marriage is in the cards for me because I think I'm too set in my ways.

Black Dahlia
10-02-2011, 02:51 PM
As I shared in another thread...wifely duties indeed!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JZ4_7f7GLoc/TSXYehaw9PI/AAAAAAAACKE/BzUIMj9-4UU/s1600/2801.jpg

Ha ha!
X
BD

V.C. Brunswick
10-02-2011, 02:54 PM
^
:rofl:

"She may be a slob but she's a hygienic slob!"

Black Dahlia
10-02-2011, 02:55 PM
*lol* I had no clue Lysol had so many purposes....guess you learn something new every day! ha ha
X
BD

AtomicEraTom
10-02-2011, 03:41 PM
Just need an understanding woman. There's some out there, it's just a heck of a hunt.


You and me both! lol Though I'm not quite sure if marriage is in the cards for me because I think I'm too set in my ways.

LoveMyHats2
10-02-2011, 03:49 PM
As I shared in another thread...wifely duties indeed!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JZ4_7f7GLoc/TSXYehaw9PI/AAAAAAAACKE/BzUIMj9-4UU/s1600/2801.jpg

Ha ha!
X
BDShe was such a "sassy" lass, who just needed some lysol to scrub that ...erm....well....hahahaah

HoosierDaddy
10-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Just need an understanding woman. There's some out there, it's just a heck of a hunt.

Well..first off..get across just exactly what you want her to understand. Second...you might then want to put all of it in writing...get her signature...and noterized. Then have copies made..and one framed to hang on the wall. THEN...let me know how that works out for ya..!:Dlol

LoveMyHats2
10-02-2011, 03:51 PM
Just need an understanding woman. There's some out there, it's just a heck of a hunt. 1) Tracking dog 2) Large net 3) Fast talking preacher, short ceremony, 4) Honeymoon....

Gregg Axley
10-02-2011, 06:11 PM
Well I checked this out and I'll be darn, Lysol was used for hygene.
Until a real Doctor determined this wasn't a good idea.
Took several decades though, from what I read.
Weird....

Travis Lee Johnston
10-02-2011, 06:17 PM
In the first season of Boardwalk Empire they show Lysol being used for those purposes.

LoveMyHats2
10-02-2011, 07:05 PM
In the first season of Boardwalk Empire they show Lysol being used for those purposes.I just cannot say what I want...they'd hang me!

Travis Lee Johnston
10-02-2011, 07:30 PM
Right there with you, I'm a potty mouth and mind:eusa_doh:

Black Dahlia
10-02-2011, 07:30 PM
I just cannot say what I want...they'd hang me!

Oh...c'mon...you know you want to!

Ha ha



Just need an understanding woman. There's some out there, it's just a heck of a hunt.

Even if they are understanding...well it's not everything. You're a youngin' Tom! Loads of time and all that.

X
BD

LoveMyHats2
10-02-2011, 07:50 PM
Oh...c'mon...you know you want to!

Ha ha




Even if they are understanding...well it's not everything. You're a youngin' Tom! Loads of time and all that.

X
BD

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/LoveMyHats2/HPIM0629.jpg Yes young opens all the doors....

Edward
10-03-2011, 06:06 AM
Even if they are understanding...well it's not everything. You're a youngin' Tom! Loads of time and all that.


Absolutely. My maternal grandmother got married at eighteen.... but then she'd left school at fourteen. It's a different world now, where we all have far greater educational opportunities than the average person back in the day, so inevitably we leave education later, many of us, and things like "settling down" happen later on. It's just the way of things. Also, our average life expectancy is... what, maybe twenty years longer than was the case in the Thirties? So there's an element of relativity there too. 31 is a lot more like 21 would have been back in the day. In any case, though, these things are - and should be - different for everyone. Those who marry because they have reached "marrying age" are the ones that set up trouble for themselves, likely as not. I've seen one too many people jump into a very ill advised union because they've hit Twenty-five, they're "marrying age", so they marry who they are with. It being the right time for an individual to take these big steps in life is not remotely the same thing as the right age.

As to the concept of a stay-at-home wife.... Well, in the event that I got married (which may or may not happen: I've not ruled it out, but in my late Thirties I certainly don't feel incomplete as a person in the absence of such a status. If and when the right relationship in which to take that step comes along, grand.... it's just not something to which I have ever aspired for the sake of social conformity or whatever), that would strike me as rather a ridiculous notion for myself. I have never wanted children, nor would I be prepared to enter into a relationship with someone who did. Nothing against those who wish to parent at all: simply my personal choice. I don't dislike kids in general (individual kids, now....), I just prefer cats myself. In that context, I see no point whatever in either partner staying at home all day. In terms of my own experience growing up, my mother left work several months before I was born, and didn't return until after my brother and I were both in school. We were never latch key kids (my folks would have been horrified by the notion) - my grandmother picked us up from school every day. My parents had other friends who went back to work as soon as possible, which worked out just fine for them. I wasn't aware at the time (but am very much so now) just how much my folks sacrificed financially for us. That's the choice they made, though, that until we were in school they'd rather one of them - in this case, it so happened it was my mother; had she been earning significantly more than my dad they may have made a different, equally logical decision, as I don't believe they are wedded to rigidly defined, arbitrary gender role stereotypes. We certainly did well. I also believe (and the research I read on this back when I studied psychology certainly back this up) that we also benefited tremendously from our mother working as we got older, giving us a much more rounded view of female gender roles and the workplace.

All said and done, the lady author mentioned at the top of this thread sounds like a nasty piece of work who considers her views automatically superior to those of anyone else, whatever their circumstances. The real achievement of the feminist movement has been that women (or, indeed, men) should now have the choice of whether to stay home with the kids or to go out to work, and noone else has the right to tell them they are "wrong" over a mere difference of opinion. I'm sure there are some stay-at-home parents who have, unfortunately, been looked down on by others, though there seem to me to be equally as many obnoxious folks in that camp all too ready to look down on those who work. I lean to the view that anyone who is fortunate enough to be able to make the choice, whichever way they go with it, should reflect on how lucky they are before condemning others whose hands are forced by circumstance. I'm pretty certain that back in the day many, many folks simply had no choice at all. Seems to me this debate is all too often influenced by stereotypes of an era that never really existed. [huh]

C-dot
10-03-2011, 07:20 AM
All said and done, the lady author mentioned at the top of this thread sounds like a nasty piece of work who considers her views automatically superior to those of anyone else, whatever their circumstances. The real achievement of the feminist movement has been that women (or, indeed, men) should now have the choice of whether to stay home with the kids or to go out to work, and noone else has the right to tell them they are "wrong" over a mere difference of opinion. I'm sure there are some stay-at-home parents who have, unfortunately, been looked down on by others, though there seem to me to be equally as many obnoxious folks in that camp all too ready to look down on those who work. I lean to the view that anyone who is fortunate enough to be able to make the choice, whichever way they go with it, should reflect on how lucky they are before condemning others whose hands are forced by circumstance. I'm pretty certain that back in the day many, many folks simply had no choice at all. Seems to me this debate is all too often influenced by stereotypes of an era that never really existed. [huh]

I agree with you about the point being to make the choice, circumstances allowing. I believe the mindset that a woman must be a working woman or a "supermum," otherwise she's backward, is because back in the era (or today's version of it), women were forced into that role, so anyone who chooses it freely is hurting the "cause." Why do these sanctimonious working women have the right to point fingers? Why should anybody in this world be chastised for taking pride in something they choose to do?

Edward
10-03-2011, 07:43 AM
I agree with you about the point being to make the choice, circumstances allowing. I believe the mindset that a woman must be a working woman or a "supermum," otherwise she's backward, is because back in the era (or today's version of it), women were forced into that role, so anyone who chooses it freely is hurting the "cause." Why do these sanctimonious working women have the right to point fingers? Why should anybody in this world be chastised for taking pride in something they choose to do?

Absolutely - and the opposite choice should be equally respected.

sheeplady
10-03-2011, 09:20 AM
The idea of women having to balance family and a job isn't a new problem. Perhaps it is a relatively new thing for middle class women, but traditionally working class and poor women have had to work while raising their families for a very long time.

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 09:58 AM
The idea of women having to balance family and a job isn't a new problem. Perhaps it is a relatively new thing for middle class women, but traditionally working class and poor women have had to work while raising their families for a very long time. So true. I have no idea why, but when I think of all that it always makes me think about Cinderella!

Edward
10-03-2011, 10:34 AM
The idea of women having to balance family and a job isn't a new problem. Perhaps it is a relatively new thing for middle class women, but traditionally working class and poor women have had to work while raising their families for a very long time.

Exactly. Far too many people who idealise the past to damn the present have no idea what it was really like.

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Exactly. Far too many people who idealise the past to damn the present have no idea what it was really like.To some degree this is so very true.

In things today that do take place, we are not the same as we had been even a time span of fifty years. Our problems have grown with time and modern advancements that are certainly a part of the equation of life today, versus life back then.

My own take on things regarding the role of a Wife, in my home is that she is the queen, and I will stand by her no matter what. That is my final answer!

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Exactly. Far too many people who idealise the past to damn the present have no idea what it was really like.

It was tough for my grandmother I can tell you that. Back in the 30s, she worked, did all the houskeeping and did all the cooking. On the weekends, she also had the whole family over for dinner---usually on Saturday.
Even her contemporaries thought she was doing far too much. She never thought of it as anything but what she had to do. You don't even want to hear what she thought of today's woman who did far less and still complained. :p

rue
10-03-2011, 01:49 PM
It was tough for my grandmother I can tell you that. Back in the 30s, she worked, did all the houskeeping and did all the cooking. On the weekends, she also had the whole family over for dinner---usually on Saturday.
Even her contemporaries thought she was doing far too much. She never thought of it as anything but what she had to do. You don't even want to hear what she thought of today's woman who did far less and still complained. :p

I'll bet I can guess and would agree.

Black Dahlia
10-03-2011, 02:28 PM
To each their own as they say!

I'd be more than happy to be a stay at home wife and mom to look after my family and household.

However, I went the career route. And after two university degrees and a diploma...well, I just have to work! Ha ha!

X
BD

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 02:47 PM
I'll bet I can guess and would agree.

:rofl:

Edward
10-03-2011, 02:55 PM
It was tough for my grandmother I can tell you that. Back in the 30s, she worked, did all the houskeeping and did all the cooking. On the weekends, she also had the whole family over for dinner---usually on Saturday.
Even her contemporaries thought she was doing far too much. She never thought of it as anything but what she had to do. You don't even want to hear what she thought of today's woman who did far less and still complained. :p

Absolutely, I think we all forget (whether we bemoan our ot now, or wish we lived back then) just how many conveniences we take for granted nowadays! Inside flush toilet, running hot water, washing machine, fridge..... wouldn't catch me wanting to live without those!

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 02:57 PM
Absolutely, I think we all forget (whether we bemoan our ot now, or wish we lived back then) just how many conveniences we take for granted nowadays! Inside flush toilet, running hot water, washing machine, fridge..... wouldn't catch me wanting to live without those!

I think she went a little overboard though. The wife never waxes the door mouldings. :p

C-dot
10-03-2011, 03:29 PM
However, I went the career route. And after two university degrees and a diploma...well, I just have to work! Ha ha!

Absolutely! I can't imagine not using my diploma and license - I would feel as though I'd done it for nothing.

Here's an interesting related thought: I've heard and read it referred to a few times that many women in "the day" went to college to find husbands. In a fascinating book I read about secretaries (http://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Steno-Pool-Making-Office/dp/0393338541), I learned that women went in droves to business schools to become great stenographers, typists, etc. but the ever useful "guides" for these careers pushed marriage as the ultimate "career goal." An article in a 1953 issue of Woman's Day magazine examined this issue in depth - The title was "Do Career Girls Make Better Wives?" (The verdict was yes, so your husband wouldn't have to waste his time teaching you to do math, and you would understand him better when he told you about his day at the office.)

Imagine living with that kind of pressure? As anyone who has seen The Best of Everything (1959) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052619/) can deduce, the idea must have been that a woman was not complete until she married and had a man to look after.

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 03:33 PM
An article in a 1953 issue of Woman's Day magazine examined this issue in depth - The title was "Do Career Girls Make Better Wives?" (The verdict was yes, so your husband wouldn't have to waste his time teaching you to do math, and you would understand him better when he told you about his day at the office.)

Hmmmm.....now I know why I had my wife got her BS in psychology. :p

Gregg Axley
10-03-2011, 04:58 PM
Mine has a HS degree, but she's very well read and makes up for lack of college by studying a lot of issues we face today. Do I feel we are unequal because I have a degree and she doesn't? No. She's smarter in some things than I am, and vice versa. It balances out.
Especially since she has the patience and I don't.
BTW she doesn't wax door frames either, but she does dust her DVD collection. :eeek:

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 05:01 PM
Mine has a HS degree, but she's very well read and makes up for lack of college by studying a lot of issues we face today. Do I feel we are unequal because I have a degree and she doesn't? No. She's smarter in some things than I am, and vice versa. It balances out.
Especially since she has the patience and I don't.
BTW she doesn't wax door frames either, but she does dust her DVD collection. :eeek:

Suuuurrreee. We know you want to keep her in the kitchen and barefoot. :p;)

LizzieMaine
10-03-2011, 05:06 PM
Absolutely, I think we all forget (whether we bemoan our ot now, or wish we lived back then) just how many conveniences we take for granted nowadays! Inside flush toilet, running hot water, washing machine, fridge..... wouldn't catch me wanting to live without those!

I have friends who spent the first year of their marriage living in the woods in a teepee. That's too atavistic even for me.

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 05:13 PM
I have friends who spent the first year of their marriage living in the woods in a teepee. That's too atavistic even for me.

:eeek: Sounds like: :hippie: lol lol

V.C. Brunswick
10-03-2011, 05:17 PM
A teepee works for me!

http://kendalnite.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/wigwam-arizona.jpg

jamespowers
10-03-2011, 05:18 PM
A teepee works for me!

http://kendalnite.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/wigwam-arizona.jpg

Man, you better paint that black car before it rusts away. :p

sheeplady
10-03-2011, 05:29 PM
I think she went a little overboard though. The wife never waxes the door mouldings. :p

My grandmother cleaned her closets every week. Took everything out, scrubbed them down, and repacked them. Every single closet. She also cleaned the entire basement, including moving the washer to wash underneath it, once a week.


the idea must have been that a woman was not complete until she married and had a man to look after.

Sadly, I know people who still believe this- to the point that ANY marriage is better than being single.

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 05:32 PM
A teepee works for me!

http://kendalnite.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/wigwam-arizona.jpgHey what in the world?? That is my blue chevy parked there, who took this picture? Geez, peeping toms everywhere..(sigh).....

Black Dahlia
10-03-2011, 05:36 PM
:eeek: Sounds like: :hippie: lol lol

Please...don't bring the hippies into it! Noooooo
X
BD

PoohBang
10-03-2011, 05:40 PM
who's trolling now...?

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 05:45 PM
My grandmother cleaned her closets every week. Took everything out, scrubbed them down, and repacked them. Every single closet. She also cleaned the entire basement, including moving the washer to wash underneath it, once a week.



Sadly, I know people who still believe this- to the point that ANY marriage is better than being single.

I have to say this, with some note of being serious and no humor.

My Wife is such a blessing to me. In our Marriage I have had medical issues from having MS that most would have run from, not her. I have had some really bad issues with my heart and perhaps hold a record for having serious heart attacks, she is still hanging in there and dealt with anything tossed at me, or at us as a couple.

I would not allow her to ever feel as if she must clean anything in our homes, or to be left to do something I am not willing to do myself. If anything, I welcome the one to do things that are needed to be cleaned, or anything in home cleaning. In fact, we both desire many things to be hand washed, I do that. I do all the ironing, I am actually better than most gals at it, so why not?

I clean the floors as I am fast and good at it, why not? I do the dishes, the same reason. She can do them, but why should I place her into a "conformed" role in our household? She does so much each day as it is, for the "us" that takes place within the home and relationship.

I think each person just needs to find the reason they are together, and cherish it. When I see someone "keeping score" about who does what, in a relationship, something is already very wrong, (in my opinion) and what ever it is needs to be fixed.


If I was keeping score in my relationship with my Wife, I would gladly say, Wife 1000, me ZERO. What else could I do, but to give her that, as I am already sure, role reversed, with a warm smile, she would do the same in return.

C-dot
10-03-2011, 06:24 PM
Sadly, I know people who still believe this- to the point that ANY marriage is better than being single.

Which I think is terrible. Marriage is not the answer to your problems, it requires constant work from both people, much more than a person with self esteem that low can handle. On TV, Rhoda Morgenstern (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071040/) was a great example. I'm not surprised her marriage crumbled, what with her constant needling and "relationship talks" and bouts of insecurity.

LizzieMaine
10-03-2011, 06:33 PM
It isn't just marriage, either. I know gals -- young women mostly, but some my age or older -- who can't function if they aren't "in a relationship." They get hooked up with some no-account bum just for the sake of having a "guy" and end up frustrated and upset and hurt when things blow up, and then they just go right on ahead and do it again, grabbing the first apple out of the barrel without bothering to check if it's rotten.

I thought "modern women" were beyond this sort of thinking. Seems not.

Pompidou
10-03-2011, 06:36 PM
It isn't just marriage, either. I know gals -- young women mostly, but some my age or older -- who can't function if they aren't "in a relationship." They get hooked up with some no-account bum just for the sake of having a "guy" and end up frustrated and upset and hurt when things blow up, and then they just go right on ahead and do it again, grabbing the first apple out of the barrel without bothering to check if it's rotten.

I thought "modern women" were beyond this sort of thinking. Seems not.

Some guys are the same way - for what it's worth. I guess there's some kind of self validation and increased status from being in a relationship, and some people crave the proof in their arms at all times. Maybe the presumption is that if you aren't taken, it's because you can't be (through some deficiency of your own).

LizzieMaine
10-03-2011, 06:40 PM
My recently-deceased aunt had the right idea. Her husband died in 1972 and she never felt the need of another one. "I need to do that again," she said, "like Custer needed the Sioux."

C-dot
10-03-2011, 06:40 PM
It isn't just marriage, either. I know gals -- young women mostly, but some my age or older -- who can't function if they aren't "in a relationship." They get hooked up with some no-account bum just for the sake of having a "guy" and end up frustrated and upset and hurt when things blow up, and then they just go right on ahead and do it again, grabbing the first apple out of the barrel without bothering to check if it's rotten.

I thought "modern women" were beyond this sort of thinking. Seems not.

You just described very accurately many females I've met, and one in particular that I was good friends with. We became friendly because we had things in common, but I grew tired of every conversation being about the next guy, and of the hysterical late night phone calls when her new romance went dramatically sour. Barely a week would pass between boyfriends sometimes, and each time, she was convinced that he was "the one." While she dated him, she wouldn't give me much bother, but when he dumped her, I'd have to pick her up again. That's too much for anyone to handle, and one reason why I am choosy of female friends.

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 08:08 PM
You just described very accurately many females I've met, and one in particular that I was good friends with. We became friendly because we had things in common, but I grew tired of every conversation being about the next guy, and of the hysterical late night phone calls when her new romance went dramatically sour. Barely a week would pass between boyfriends sometimes, and each time, she was convinced that he was "the one." While she dated him, she wouldn't give me much bother, but when he dumped her, I'd have to pick her up again. That's too much for anyone to handle, and one reason why I am choosy of female friends.If this may be taken well as a compliment and only in a very positive intention, many people (me included) are really not mentally and emotionally mature enough, to have any business being in a involved relationship or marriage until the age of about 30 to 35 hits. Now I am NOT picking on anyone younger than that, and if someone is married and having it good is younger than that, so be it, happy for ya. I just think it is not life or death to beat yourself up into having a relationship at such a young age. Good things come to one with experience and maturity. So...my care expressed to anyone on the topic, give life a chance to happen...and it will. Let nature takes it course....no relationship is way, way better than a rotten one.

AtomicEraTom
10-03-2011, 09:01 PM
I know a lot of guys and gals like this. There's nothing wrong with being on the hunt, but there's also nothing wrong with being comfortable with being on your own. I've been single since December and while I'm on the lookout for someone new, it's not gonna make or break me. Eventually it'd be nice, but it's not something to define yourself by. I see many friends of mine with a new S-O on a regular basis. That's just too much gosh-darn work.

There's folks on the other end of the spectrum, though. My best friend hasn't had a girlfriend in a couple years now. He just goes around finding women to 'have a good time with' no strings attached. I don't think too highly of that, either. It just seems disrespectful. He spends a lot of time in bars and strip clubs and people ask how the heck two people who are so different can be best friends, but I digress.

I personally like the idea of a stay at home wife. My mom stayed home until my dad got hurt and she was forced to go back to work. In the world today, it's not feasible, at least I think, unless you're very wealthy. I'm not a rich man, so if I ever have a Mrs, she'll be working, unfortunately.


It isn't just marriage, either. I know gals -- young women mostly, but some my age or older -- who can't function if they aren't "in a relationship." They get hooked up with some no-account bum just for the sake of having a "guy" and end up frustrated and upset and hurt when things blow up, and then they just go right on ahead and do it again, grabbing the first apple out of the barrel without bothering to check if it's rotten.

I thought "modern women" were beyond this sort of thinking. Seems not.

Pompidou
10-03-2011, 09:06 PM
I know a lot of guys and gals like this. There's nothing wrong with being on the hunt, but there's also nothing wrong with being comfortable with being on your own. I've been single since December and while I'm on the lookout for someone new, it's not gonna make or break me. Eventually it'd be nice, but it's not something to define yourself by. I see many friends of mine with a new S-O on a regular basis. That's just too much gosh-darn work.

There's folks on the other end of the spectrum, though. My best friend hasn't had a girlfriend in a couple years now. He just goes around finding women to 'have a good time with' no strings attached. I don't think too highly of that, either. It just seems disrespectful. He spends a lot of time in bars and strip clubs and people ask how the heck two people who are so different can be best friends, but I digress.

I personally like the idea of a stay at home wife. My mom stayed home until my dad got hurt and she was forced to go back to work. In the world today, it's not feasible, at least I think, unless you're very wealthy. I'm not a rich man, so if I ever have a Mrs, she'll be working, unfortunately.

I've heard more than once that the secret to a successful marriage is having as much away time as you possibly can - and a two income household certainly facilitates that.

PoohBang
10-03-2011, 09:36 PM
I've heard more than once that the secret to a successful marriage is having as much away time as you possibly can - and a two income household certainly facilitates that.

I think the secret to a successful marriage is finding the right partner. Every single person I know wishes they had somebody. Even a guy I know who's been a bachelor for 60+ years has finally found the right girl, and is getting married and couldn't be happier.

AtomicEraTom
10-03-2011, 09:37 PM
I would imagine a lot of it comes down to the couple. My parents, even before my mom worked, were ALWAYS together whenever they could be. I think a relationship like that could be nice, but not necessary. Space works for me, too.


I've heard more than once that the secret to a successful marriage is having as much away time as you possibly can - and a two income household certainly facilitates that.

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 09:46 PM
I think the secret to a successful marriage is finding the right partner. Every single person I know wishes they had somebody. Even a guy I know who's been a bachelor for 60+ years has finally found the right girl, and is getting married and couldn't be happier.

True. I do agree with what you state, and yes, finding the right person is very much a part of it.

I think, (my opinion based only by my own history) it is not easy to be single if you want to be married. Now the problem you face, is, who is that right person for me, and how do I find her? (well if you are a Gal, find him)???

It may be more natural for anyone in general, to desire to have someone in their life, to be in love with and perhaps marry. I know I wanted that in my own life and was willing to undergo the normal "make a mistake" ordeal a few times, but eventually I got it right, and WOW it was so very worth it all. I also do find it is hard but better to not be in any relationship then to be in a rotten one.

PoohBang
10-03-2011, 09:58 PM
True. I do agree with what you state, and yes, finding the right person is very much a part of it.

I think, (my opinion based only by my own history) it is not easy to be single if you want to be married. Now the problem you face, is, who is that right person for me, and how do I find her? (well if you are a Gal, find him)???

It may be more natural for anyone in general, to desire to have someone in their life, to be in love with and perhaps marry. I know I wanted that in my own life and was willing to undergo the normal "make a mistake" ordeal a few times, but eventually I got it right, and WOW it was so very worth it all. I also do find it is hard but better to not be in any relationship then to be in a rotten one.

totally agree... Being in a rotten one is just a festering thing that will someday explode. If you find the right person, and I really don't think it's that tough.

I think people are made to fall in love pretty easy, and if you fall in love with someone with similar views and ideas as you do, it would take a lot to break that up. The biggest problem most single people have (of the ones I know) is having this "Ideal" vision of what the person that's right for them is, all the while missing out on when the right one comes along.

LoveMyHats2
10-03-2011, 10:34 PM
totally agree... Being in a rotten one is just a festering thing that will someday explode. If you find the right person, and I really don't think it's that tough.

I think people are made to fall in love pretty easy, and if you fall in love with someone with similar views and ideas as you do, it would take a lot to break that up. The biggest problem most single people have (of the ones I know) is having this "Ideal" vision of what the person that's right for them is, all the while missing out on when the right one comes along.Bingo! Now I find (my opinion again) that most of the hardship and anger, frustration, negative actions that you see reflected from both people when the issue of their relationship goes south is, they feel so hurt because their "dream world" did not work, and they lack the wisdom of just understanding that and get all huffed up about it. They make a war of it, rather than to just get things over and move on.

kamikat
10-04-2011, 04:46 AM
I personally like the idea of a stay at home wife. My mom stayed home until my dad got hurt and she was forced to go back to work. In the world today, it's not feasible, at least I think, unless you're very wealthy. I'm not a rich man, so if I ever have a Mrs, she'll be working, unfortunately.

That's not true at all. I've been a stay-at-home mom for 12 years. The key,at least for us, was to have kids early enough to not get used to having that second income. I worked full time while my husband (then boyfriend) finished up college, then we both worked while paying off school loans, then had our first baby within 3 years of first meeting. Our whole adult life has been with one income. We managed car payments, house payments, saving for the kids' college all on one income. My husband works for a not-for-profit foundation making about half of what he could make in a for-profit company doing the same thing. The couples that I know that both work usually have waited until after 35 to have their first baby. By that time, they are so used to 2 incomes that their lifestyles demand 2 incomes. They have 2 car payments, a large mortgage, lots of credit cards. We've never had more than 1 car payment at a time. We bought a cheap house. We paid off our credit cards before buying the house and never got new ones. But on the other hand, we don't eat out, I cook every night. We go to the movies about 4 times each year. My kids don't do all the expensive afterschool activies. My sister thinks I've depriving my kids of soccer, piano lessons, scouting. I think she's depriving her kids of her presence while her nanny drives her kids to all those activities. It's all about priorities.

Edward
10-04-2011, 05:33 AM
I have friends who spent the first year of their marriage living in the woods in a teepee. That's too atavistic even for me.

Yeah.... I'd love that for a few days, but much after that it'd be "fit a flush toilet and then we'll talk..."


It isn't just marriage, either. I know gals -- young women mostly, but some my age or older -- who can't function if they aren't "in a relationship." They get hooked up with some no-account bum just for the sake of having a "guy" and end up frustrated and upset and hurt when things blow up, and then they just go right on ahead and do it again, grabbing the first apple out of the barrel without bothering to check if it's rotten.

I thought "modern women" were beyond this sort of thinking. Seems not.

Alas, no.... and "modern men" aren't much better, in the main. I'm eternally grateful that I was never taught by my folks to find any form of self-validation through relationships. I've had considerably fewer relationships in my life than would probably be considered normal, and went around six years without one (in that time I did turn down a few). Really, the relationships i have had have been just a blip in terms of duration of my life, and I've never felt incomplete as a person without one. I'm very grateful for this in comparison to friends and others I've known who have no sense of self worth whatever without being with someone. I've even known someone to overlap relationships so as never to be single for a decade or more. I suppose it's harder for people who really want to have kids, though; I never have (wouldn't even consider getting involved with someone who did, it's a dealbreaker), so I have the luxury of not having any lifegoals that are dependent upon having a partner.

LoveMyHats2
10-04-2011, 06:55 AM
That's not true at all. I've been a stay-at-home mom for 12 years. The key,at least for us, was to have kids early enough to not get used to having that second income. I worked full time while my husband (then boyfriend) finished up college, then we both worked while paying off school loans, then had our first baby within 3 years of first meeting. Our whole adult life has been with one income. We managed car payments, house payments, saving for the kids' college all on one income. My husband works for a not-for-profit foundation making about half of what he could make in a for-profit company doing the same thing. The couples that I know that both work usually have waited until after 35 to have their first baby. By that time, they are so used to 2 incomes that their lifestyles demand 2 incomes. They have 2 car payments, a large mortgage, lots of credit cards. We've never had more than 1 car payment at a time. We bought a cheap house. We paid off our credit cards before buying the house and never got new ones. But on the other hand, we don't eat out, I cook every night. We go to the movies about 4 times each year. My kids don't do all the expensive afterschool activies. My sister thinks I've depriving my kids of soccer, piano lessons, scouting. I think she's depriving her kids of her presence while her nanny drives her kids to all those activities. It's all about priorities.

I do find the priorities part of the how and why you are doing what you do, perhaps the most important aspect of all. I do know, for myself, my entire relationship and for my Wife's part in it, and my own, is for each other. Being of the age we are, children are all grown and not a part of our household, I am sure that in itself makes a very big difference. But you are right, a person has to define the priorities and go from there on things.

AtomicEraTom
10-04-2011, 10:31 AM
You're truly an inspiration. Thanks for giving me hope, once again. I always thought my parents could only do it because with my dad being Foreman on the job-sites, he was making good money, and we didn't have things like internet, dish, etc.


That's not true at all. I've been a stay-at-home mom for 12 years. The key,at least for us, was to have kids early enough to not get used to having that second income. I worked full time while my husband (then boyfriend) finished up college, then we both worked while paying off school loans, then had our first baby within 3 years of first meeting. Our whole adult life has been with one income. We managed car payments, house payments, saving for the kids' college all on one income. My husband works for a not-for-profit foundation making about half of what he could make in a for-profit company doing the same thing. The couples that I know that both work usually have waited until after 35 to have their first baby. By that time, they are so used to 2 incomes that their lifestyles demand 2 incomes. They have 2 car payments, a large mortgage, lots of credit cards. We've never had more than 1 car payment at a time. We bought a cheap house. We paid off our credit cards before buying the house and never got new ones. But on the other hand, we don't eat out, I cook every night. We go to the movies about 4 times each year. My kids don't do all the expensive afterschool activies. My sister thinks I've depriving my kids of soccer, piano lessons, scouting. I think she's depriving her kids of her presence while her nanny drives her kids to all those activities. It's all about priorities.

Marzena
10-04-2011, 11:27 AM
That's not true at all. I've been a stay-at-home mom for 12 years. The key,at least for us, was to have kids early enough to not get used to having that second income. I worked full time while my husband (then boyfriend) finished up college, then we both worked while paying off school loans, then had our first baby within 3 years of first meeting. Our whole adult life has been with one income. We managed car payments, house payments, saving for the kids' college all on one income. My husband works for a not-for-profit foundation making about half of what he could make in a for-profit company doing the same thing. The couples that I know that both work usually have waited until after 35 to have their first baby. By that time, they are so used to 2 incomes that their lifestyles demand 2 incomes. They have 2 car payments, a large mortgage, lots of credit cards. We've never had more than 1 car payment at a time. We bought a cheap house. We paid off our credit cards before buying the house and never got new ones. But on the other hand, we don't eat out, I cook every night. We go to the movies about 4 times each year. My kids don't do all the expensive afterschool activies. My sister thinks I've depriving my kids of soccer, piano lessons, scouting. I think she's depriving her kids of her presence while her nanny drives her kids to all those activities. It's all about priorities.

I have recently talked to a lady, one of the symbols of "having it all" in my country.She very candidly told me the key to successful combining of career and family was actually a very HIGH income. Then, she said, it is possible to create a family environment not much affected by demands of your career, b/c there is so much help and support available whenever needed.
I thought it quite refreshing. I have always heard that you needed a large income to afford being a full time homemaker and suddenly this wonder woman tells me how she could only afford being a career mother because her income was large enough!

Miss sofia
10-04-2011, 03:05 PM
Hey there can i just agree with Tom and say you are an inspiration Kamikat.

I was a single, stay-at-home mom for five years, in that time, i had no family near me as they moved abroad. I did have a small part time job a few mornings a week while my son was at playschool. I made a concious decision to quit a well-paid job when i split up with my son's father in order to be there for my son and spend all the quality time with him i could. I have to say i was lucky as i had some savings and my ex-partner contributed to paying some of my bills, but really we lived on fresh air for those five years. But, i think those years were the happiest of my life and i can't say we both went without at all. As Kamikat said it's about being used to living on one income initially.

It's also all about effort and budgeting! We were lucky as we lived in a rural area, with a lovely close-knit communtiy who were very helpful. After i paid the household bills there was very little money to spare, but children don't need all the gadgets and gimmicks to be happy. We didn't have the internet, i used the local library as it was free. There are plenty of activities for children like painting, baking, or just mucking about outdoors that don't cost money and which we took full advantage of. I used to pore over the local papers to find days out, museums and art galleries or children's fun days that were free etc. sorry to blather on, but as i said it's all about effort and budgeting. I'm not trying to set myself up as some holier than thou type, god forbid! It's not easy relying on a small income at all, especially when the washing machine blows up or you need a serious amount of cash to hand for something. All i want to say is that it is possible to have a fulfilling family life on one income. One just has to prioritise what is important, a roof over your head, food on the table, lights that go on when you flick the switch, an old banger to get you from A to B, a treat every now and then. The rest, all the material things we think we need, well as my dear old Dad always says, it's just stuff...

LoveMyHats2
10-04-2011, 05:53 PM
Who was it, a famous Actress that said, "it is not the men in my life, but the life in my men"? Yeah you know who I mean...Jean Harlow!

kamikat
10-05-2011, 05:16 AM
Oh, thanks, everyone!

AmateisGal
10-05-2011, 06:59 AM
My kids don't do all the expensive afterschool activies. My sister thinks I've depriving my kids of soccer, piano lessons, scouting. I think she's depriving her kids of her presence while her nanny drives her kids to all those activities. It's all about priorities.

Good for you! I have friends who are endlessly shuffling their kids one place or another and they are always complaining. My daughter has art lessons once every two weeks and that's it, and sometimes I think people look down on me for not having her involved in more. But she doesn't like sports and I'm not going to push her to be in stuff. She's quite content and we love spending time together instead of running ourselves ragged.