Freedom of Arm Movement

Anva · Oct 25, 2015

Hi,

I have a jacket that makes it quite impossible to put both my arms forward (as in "carry a large object in front of me"). I noticed that the jacket is the only one I have that does this. So: how "free" should one be when wearing a suit jacket?

-Anva

herringbonekid · Oct 25, 2015

Anva said:
So: how "free" should one be when wearing a suit jacket?

the freer the better.
if you can comfortably put both arms forward (as if holding a steering wheel or handlebars); great. if you can raise an arm vertically (as if to grab an overhead handrail on a bus or tube train); even better.

Mathematicus · Oct 25, 2015

Another related question is the appearance of the jacket when you move. If you're able do to any movement but this causes the coat to lose its shape, it's pointless.
The greatest part of issues caused by moving arms could be resolved with a correctly cut armhole; more difficult is, however, making the collar always (and I mean always, no matter how you're moving) resting glued to your neck. This is really a challenge, even for bespoke.

Dirk Wainscotting · Oct 26, 2015

It's the armhole depth (specifically it being not too low) that keeps the collar on your neck. In bespoke - and more commonly in the past when a greater variety of garments were made - the sleeve pitch would be positioned to reflect a coat's function. For example, a chauffeur's coat would take into account the position of his arms holding a steering wheel.

The fact of the matter is that even a high armhole is not the golden solution to free forward arm movement. The pitch, length of back armhole, blade ease, cap height and upper sleeve all contribute. In a rtw coat this is hit and miss for the person wearing it.

Bushman · Oct 26, 2015

I knew that tailor screwed me!

Sorry, but I went to get a suit hemmed a few months ago, and it wasn't cheap either. The tailor insisted that I wouldn't be moving my arms forward for anything more than a handshake, and the pants felt far too baggy. I think I'm trying the tailor down the street next time. She does mostly coats, shirts, and jeans, but I'll see if she does suits, too.

Mathematicus · Oct 27, 2015

Dirk Wainscotting said:
It's the armhole depth (specifically it being not too low) that keeps the collar on your neck. In bespoke - and more commonly in the past when a greater variety of garments were made - the sleeve pitch would be positioned to reflect a coat's function. For example, a chauffeur's coat would take into account the position of his arms holding a steering wheel.

The fact of the matter is that even a high armhole is not the golden solution to free forward arm movement. The pitch, length of back armhole, blade ease, cap height and upper sleeve all contribute. In a rtw coat this is hit and miss for the person wearing it.

I'm not a tailor, but in my experience the only high-cut armscye isn't always sufficient to guarantee a well fitting collar. I've seen coats with good armholes but gaping collar; also, I have a modern RTW coat bought I thing 10-11 years ago that has absolutely not high armholes (but, to be honest, well cut in the back) but no collar fit issues at all, even when moving in fairly extreme positions.
Most of the times, in my experience at least, problems at the collar are caused by armholes slight squarish (i.e. too low at the back) and not appropriate shoulder slope; the latter, in my opinion, is determinant. Having slightly squared shoulders I've met often the problem, and I didn't found a solution yet.

Dirk Wainscotting · Oct 27, 2015

Well of course the gaping collar - especially at the sides, with a squarish appearance - is often a result of a collar made on the flat with some attempted shaping after or just before attachment. That will look bad even if the rest of the coat fits adequately. A high armhole does more than half the job of keeping the collar on your neck, even if it wasn't made all that well to start with.

In the second bit of my post which you quoted I listed some of the things contributing to poor fit (at collar as much as armhole). If the balance is good, the collar is well-made, the arm can move freely and the shoulders aren't too narrow and the sleeve pitch is correct, forward arm motion shouldn't present much of a problem..

Now, I think I should add that I'm employed as a trousermaker and not a coatmaker. So while I know how they are made and about their fitting problems, I'm not an expert coat fitter by any means.

PeterB · Oct 28, 2015

What the people above write is spot on: the parts have to work together -- collar lying where it should, sleeves accommodating the arm movement, jacket staying where it ought to be, even when you contort the posture. Very challenging, because the jacket is made of cloth, canvassed and stitched together. It has no central nervous system of its own, and the tailor works his magic so that dead sheep wool moves with you. My last lot from the tailor have perfect collars -- never move -- but poor arm mobility. So one out of two, and we will try to arrange the arms on the next lot.

Mathematicus · Nov 2, 2015

To show that collar gap is often impredictable, even in vintage and likely bespoke garments:

This is Adolphe Menjou, recognized as one of well-dessed actor of golden era. Although, in this pic we can see a bad behaviour in the collar!
I'm curious to know if this issue can be succesfully fixed in a finished coat.

Dirk Wainscotting · Nov 3, 2015

There are lots of cases of photos or films where Cary Grant - also considered one of the golden era dressers - has a collar gap. In From Russia with Love, during the train scene, Sean Connery - in his Sinclair bespoke suit no less - has a collar gap at times. The reason is that he is tilting his head and neck and although his suit fits, it's not glued to his neck.

Menjou is doing the same in the photo, and raising his shoulders. That suit has a squarish collar anyway and looks big in the shoulder, it's not one of the best. Perhaps, unlike Menjou himself, his tailor was not a McCarthy supporter and took his revenge that way

Mathematicus · Nov 3, 2015

Dirk Wainscotting said:
There are lots of cases of photos or films where Cary Grant - also considered one of the golden era dressers - has a collar gap. In From Russia with Love, during the train scene, Sean Connery - in his Sinclair bespoke suit no less - has a collar gap at times. The reason is that he is tilting his head and neck and although his suit fits, it's not glued to his neck.

Menjou is doing the same in the photo, and raising his shoulders. That suit has a squarish collar anyway and looks big in the shoulder, it's not one of the best. Perhaps, unlike Menjou himself, his tailor was not a McCarthy supporter and took his revenge that way

Ahah, that's a good explanation!
In your opinion, is there a way to fix an issue like that?

Dirk Wainscotting · Nov 3, 2015

In the case of Connery's suit it's not really an issue that needs fixing. If a person isn't normally head forward the coat is made for a normal posture; when such a person stoops or puts his head forward, there'll be a temporary gap. The coat can't be made to fit all movements. It's only when the collar is gaping at normal posture that there is a problem. Bad collars are not a simple fix, but they can be addressed. If the tailor is good the collar will be good to start with.

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