New Schott 618 Horsehide!!! Questions....

Harris HTM · Aug 30, 2016

adiadi said:
Mate, the Schott leather jacket, compared to all my HH jackets is the softest and the most delicate. I even contact them with no real luck. The leather over all is so feeble that I could tear it with my hands if tired. Unfortunately, I bought it online without seeing the jacket in person. It's fancy jacket you can wear around but won't give you any real protection if you fell off your bike. In addition to that, the thickness of the jacket varies in different part of the jacket, you are right if you feel the leather on the arms is much thinner and softer. That my first and last Schott jacket.

I have used two schott perfectos. The steer 618 and 618hh. The steer 618 is one of the heaviest jackets I ever had, probably heavier than my similar sized fqhh aeros. Exceptional jacket.
the 618hh is far lighter and the leather feels thinner. However I dont think you can tear it apart, and it ages amazingly beatifully.
As for motorcycle use: I would not use anything without armour to be honest.

Monitor · Aug 30, 2016

Yeah, the 118, essentially the same jacket as 618 except in different type of cowhide, that I had was heavier than any Vanson I had seen. 618HH is substantially lighter, tho still the same grade as CXL FQHH, both of which seem paper thin in comparison. Here's the jacket: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/fs-schott-perfecto-118-sz-48.86275/

Monitor · Aug 30, 2016

Oh, and here's the hide thickness comparison photo I have made. Above is the Vanson Model A in comp. weight.

Monitor · Aug 30, 2016

Phillips88 said:
Lol thanks man. I think they accidentally came out that way especially sense we were first emphasizing the sleeves themselves.

View attachment 55782 View attachment 55783 View attachment 55784

Looks fantastic but... did they prolong the sleeves on this model? Can you tell me what the sleeve length is on your jacket? I'm really curious now. It used to be 25". . .

Carlos840 · Aug 30, 2016

Phillips88 said:
I noticed this like right out of the shopping box from Schott. To my knowledge the arms had never been bent at this time. It just seems odd at first that the forearms on both sleeves were softer than the rest of the jacket. I remember seeing an old post on Schotts forum that Oren Schott posted saying that Schott tired to utilize the entire horsehide so nothing went to waist. That they apparently have particular jobs at the factory where people are "leather selecters" who piece together the jackets and the better picks of the hides themselves. Regardless I think I got a beautiful jacket and like you said, im just gonna wear it and enjoy it! I just didn't know if anyone had ever heard of this before and if any changes needed to be made with Schott, I need to do it now whIle it's still considered new and is exchangeable

Keep in mind that your average leather jacket can use as many as 8 different hides! And each horse has only 2 of them.
This means you could have 4 different horses on one jacket.
If they didnt match the hides we would look like a bunch of harlequins.
The cutters job is to decide what piece will be made with what hide so it all blends in the best.
I think you are probablt looking too deep into it, you have a beautiful jacket, just enjoy it.

Phillips88 · Aug 30, 2016

Monitor said:
Looks fantastic but... did they prolong the sleeves on this model? Can you tell me what the sleeve length is on your jacket? I'm really curious now. It used to be 25". . .

I just ordered a regular 628hh directly from Schott. I didn't make any sleeves changes in length. I'll measures them when I get home from work to give an accurate length.

Phillips88 · Aug 30, 2016

Monitor said:
Yeah, the 118, essentially the same jacket as 618 except in different type of cowhide, that I had was heavier than any Vanson I had seen. 618HH is substantially lighter, tho still the same grade as CXL FQHH, both of which seem paper thin in comparison. Here's the jacket: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/fs-schott-perfecto-118-sz-48.86275/

I wore my 141 in naked cowhide today to work. I've had it and wore it daily sense about April. I absolutely love it and it's distressing beautifully as well. It no doubt feels heavier and thicker than the horsehide 618. It's not that the horse is any less than the cowhide it's just one of those things that you dont understand until you've wore both. Theyre just two total different jackets to me. They both have beautiful qualities that the other may or may not have. I'm at the point now where I'm really on the fence which I prefer more. Like I said, they both have different beautiful qualities about themselves. When it comes to wearing one daily, at this point of break in of both jackets, I would have to lean more towards my naked cowhide 141. But by no means is that an adequate evaluation sense the 141 has 4-5 months more of daily break in wear.

navetsea · Aug 30, 2016

sleeves always getting softer first because after they do the lining before doing the hemming they have to flip the jacket, and the sleeves have to be pulled inside out, while the body has front opening to make it much easier and keeping the panel less stressed in the process.

Monitor · Aug 30, 2016

Phillips88 said:
I wore my 141 in naked cowhide today to work. I've had it and wore it daily sense about April. I absolutely love it and it's distressing beautifully as well. It no doubt feels heavier and thicker than the horsehide 618. It's not that the horse is any less than the cowhide it's just one of those things that you dont understand until you've wore both. Theyre just two total different jackets to me. They both have beautiful qualities that the other may or may not have. I'm at the point now where I'm really on the fence which I prefer more. Like I said, they both have different beautiful qualities about themselves. When it comes to wearing one daily, at this point of break in of both jackets, I would have to lean more towards my naked cowhide 141. But by no means is that an adequate evaluation sense the 141 has 4-5 months more of daily break in wear.

Merely on an aesthetic level, I prefer Schott HH and by far. It may look vinyl-ish when new and the naked cow is a very nice, natural looking leather but once the HH gets broken in, only CXL can equal it in grain, texture, shine, creasing, etc., etc. You'll see what I'm talking about. It's not that Schott cow is in any way worse but they're just completely different hides and Schott HH will age exactly like the old, vintage jackets you see floating about eBay. People rarely get there, sadly. There doesn't seem to be a single photo of one that's actually several years old. I guess people that are active online first start out by buying Schott, then they stumble upon forums where others convince them some other brand is so much infinitely better, and they pass the jacket on to someone else who's just gonna wear it without thinking about it much. Sadly, this means they probably won't bother with sharing the photos of their jackets or nothing. . . But yeah, they're two completely different things. Luckily, your other Schott is a completely different style so there won't be any competition between the two but I think if they were both Perfectos, with time you would switch to 618HH.

It's a very nice jacket. Any way you look at it.

I've had these from tons of manufacturers and Aero's is also fantastic. This particular one, the one in the photos in the product description belonged to me. I exchanged it 'cause of the size.
https://www.thurston-bros.com/products/aero-motorcycle-jacket

Phillips88 · Aug 30, 2016

Just thought I'd share... I emailes Gail at Schott yesterday telling her how much Im enjoying my jacket and I asked her about the sleeves and this is her reply. She confirms the same as we've all said. It's supposed to be that way.

"Hi Adam,
Now that you are the proud owner of the horsehide jacket, you can fully understand the difficulty of trying to explain what a Horsehide jacket entails. I know once you fully break in the jacket, the creases become more pronounced with wear and the shine decreases a little it will be one of your jackets. The uniqueness of this leather will always stand out as being different and not the classic Steerhide as you normally see in this classic motorcycle style.
In regards to the arms on the jacket, certain parts of the hide will be firmer and some parts of the hide softer, loss and gain of weight in seasons can make the hide more flexible. The softer more pliable part of a hide is most likely from the under belly. Animal hides are no different than our own skin which cries in thickness and firmness. Since hides are not man made they will cry, with each hide being unique. Our leather matcher's match each jacket individually using the hide to the best advantage in making the jacket. With a less rigid and firmer hand in the arms, movement is easier and not so constricting.
I am glad to hear that you are pleased with your jacket and you gave in a chance by wearing it. The more it gets broken in the more you will love it.
Gail"

nick123 · Aug 30, 2016

Re the thinner leather parts-can happen. I had a Johnson in chromexcel steer and the leather parts Alan used near the pits and side fasteners was almost spongy in feel compared to the panels on the noticeable parts of the jacket. I think it's normal, perhaps to not throw away leather but it seems pretty commonplace.

plainsman · Aug 30, 2016

I would say to just wear it like intended, not as a fragile thing. Monitor is TFL expert on motorcycle leather jackets and especially Schott. You can trust his advice

Phillips88 · Aug 30, 2016

Monitor said:
Merely on an aesthetic level, I prefer Schott HH and by far. It may look vinyl-ish when new and the naked cow is a very nice, natural looking leather but once the HH gets broken in, only CXL can equal it in grain, texture, shine, creasing, etc., etc. You'll see what I'm talking about. It's not that Schott cow is in any way worse but they're just completely different hides and Schott HH will age exactly like the old, vintage jackets you see floating about eBay. People rarely get there, sadly. There doesn't seem to be a single photo of one that's actually several years old. I guess people that are active online first start out by buying Schott, then they stumble upon forums where others convince them some other brand is so much infinitely better, and they pass the jacket on to someone else who's just gonna wear it without thinking about it much. Sadly, this means they probably won't bother with sharing the photos of their jackets or nothing. . . But yeah, they're two completely different things. Luckily, your other Schott is a completely different style so there won't be any competition between the two but I think if they were both Perfectos, with time you would switch to 618HH.

It's a very nice jacket. Any way you look at it.

I've had these from tons of manufacturers and Aero's is also fantastic. This particular one, the one in the photos in the product description belonged to me. I exchanged it 'cause of the size.
https://www.thurston-bros.com/products/aero-motorcycle-jacket

I agree Monitor, there just isn't very many jackets out there to compare to. Iv even got that 100yr Schott book they have. Of course it has plenty of aged jackets of all different materials (except naked cowhide, like two jackets I think is all) but it doesn't tell much about the back story of the jacket itself. The ones that are in there are 30-50 years old too, id like to see 2-5-10 year old jackets.
I don't know about you but iv also had problems finding pics of naked cowhide jackets that are that old and distressed. Id love to see what I can expect out of it too. I guess that's mainly because Schott just started producing them in cowhide near the late 70s.

If I remember correctly, that HH jacket you posted here is the one on eBay right now isn't it? I saved this pic myself on my phone to admire in hopes mine looks like this soon

SHARP looking jacket!

This is one of the only distressed/broke in, naked cowhide iv been able to find. I don't know the back story though...

TREEMAN · Aug 30, 2016

Monitor said:
Oh, and here's the hide thickness comparison photo I have made. Above is the Vanson Model A in comp. weight.

ww
Whats being compared in this photo?

BobJ · Aug 30, 2016

I have noticed the same thing on my jerky horsehide halfbelt - the body panels are thicker and smoother than the arms. I always assumed they used the various parts of the hide this way on purpose - the arms NEED to be more flexible and not as heavy. I also noticed they used softer, grainier leather on the underside of the collar, compared to the top side. It's enlightened use of the hide, and makes for a more functional, and beautiful, jacket - the grain and creases really pop on the sleeves.

Phillips88 · Aug 30, 2016

BobJ said:
I have noticed the same thing on my jerky horsehide halfbelt - the body panels are thicker and smoother than the arms. I always assumed they used the various parts of the hide this way on purpose - the arms NEED to be more flexible and not as heavy. I also noticed they used softer, grainier leather on the underside of the collar, compared to the top side. It's enlightened use of the hide, and makes for a more functional, and beautiful, jacket - the grain and creases really pop on the sleeves.

Yes sounds like yours is like mine. Which I'm not sure if you saw my earlier post. Gail from Schott confirmed this was the case and also mentioned any good leather maker should do the same to anticipate the more movable parts of the jacket. So that being said, sounds like you and I both have a well put together, thought out jacket!

Monitor · Aug 30, 2016

Phillips88 said:
I agree Monitor, there just isn't very many jackets out there to compare to. Iv even got that 100yr Schott book they have. Of course it has plenty of aged jackets of all different materials (except naked cowhide, like two jackets I think is all) but it doesn't tell much about the back story of the jacket itself. The ones that are in there are 30-50 years old too, id like to see 2-5-10 year old jackets.
I don't know about you but iv also had problems finding pics of naked cowhide jackets that are that old and distressed. Id love to see what I can expect out of it too. I guess that's mainly because Schott just started producing them in cowhide near the late 70s.

If I remember correctly, that HH jacket you posted here is the one on eBay right now isn't it? I saved this pic myself on my phone to admire in hopes mine looks like this soon SHARP looking jacket!

This is one of the only distressed/broke in, naked cowhide iv been able to find. I don't know the back story though... View attachment 55827 View attachment 55828

Naked cow's holding really well and has been introduced comparatively recently. The hide Schott was using in the 50's, that stuff is showing some serious age! I don't know what it is, though... Something entirely different though more akin to Steer, I would imagine. Time will tell.

Yeah, the 618HH is from an eBay auction. So is this 141. That jacket popped up for sale in Germany, the seller didn't state what made it so freaking cool but I remember hardware being from the 70's or 80's, just about when they introduced this style and replaced the 654 Cafe Racer. I think that's what it's called? Anyway, I don't know the full story but I do know it looks insane!

TREEMAN, 118 Naked Cow vs. Vanson comp. weight leather thickness.

Phillips88 · Aug 31, 2016

Monitor said:
Naked cow's holding really well and has been introduced comparatively recently. The hide Schott was using in the 50's, that stuff is showing some serious age! I don't know what it is, though... Something entirely different though more akin to Steer, I would imagine. Time will tell.

Yeah, the 618HH is from an eBay auction. So is this 141. That jacket popped up for sale in Germany, the seller didn't state what made it so freaking cool but I remember hardware being from the 70's or 80's, just about when they introduced this style and replaced the 654 Cafe Racer. I think that's what it's called? Anyway, I don't know the full story but I do know it looks insane!

TREEMAN, 118 Naked Cow vs. Vanson comp. weight leather thickness.

Lol I could start a whole new topic on this, I'm not going to but I am quite curious how the naked cowhide will hold up in time. Reasons being

Monitor said:
Naked cow's holding really well and has been introduced comparatively recently. The hide Schott was using in the 50's, that stuff is showing some serious age! I don't know what it is, though... Something entirely different though more akin to Steer, I would imagine. Time will tell.

Yeah, the 618HH is from an eBay auction. So is this 141. That jacket popped up for sale in Germany, the seller didn't state what made it so freaking cool but I remember hardware being from the 70's or 80's, just about when they introduced this style and replaced the 654 Cafe Racer. I think that's what it's called? Anyway, I don't know the full story but I do know it looks insane!

TREEMAN, 118 Naked Cow vs. Vanson comp. weight leather thickness.

Lol. I could start a whole new topic on this. I'm not going to but I am quite curious how the naked cowhide will hold up in time. Reasons being, from what Iv read and spoke directly to Gail when it comes to upkeep and treatment of the jacket is a little contradicting. From what I'm told, you must be careful with what you put on the cowhide. From what Gail suggests, NOTHING! I don't know about all that but her reason is clogged pores of the leather. We'll correct me if I'm wrong but In that same post Oren Schott talks about the HH, he mentioned the cowhide and steer was the same leather but the "steer" is just cow with a protective top coat. So doesnt that clog the pores too? So that being said, if the cowhides pores aren't clogged and it's probably treaters over time, it could last from now on cause it's soaking up the conditioner. (I'll find that post where Oren says that Cow and steer are the same hide, just named steer to differentiate)

Phillips88 · Aug 31, 2016

Here is the link Monitor

://www.schottnyc.com/forum/posts/horsehide_perfectos.htm

Monitor · Aug 31, 2016

I know what you mean, Phillips; I've been thinking about the same thing.

From my experience with vintage motorcycle leather jackets, Schott steer is much closer to how they used to do it in the past. These old hides were often made with a really thick, heavy, waterproof top coat and I've rarely seen an old US made leather jacket done in naked leather. German motorcycle jackets are on the other hand mostly made from unfinished leather though I guess the reason for that was German tendency to use extremely heavy hides which if heavily coated would literally become unwearable. Anyhow, I think the main reason why Gail says nothing should be used on Naked cow is to protect the company and not your jacket. For the right reason, too - People get all sorts of idiotic ideas. I've seen tons of perfectly fine jackets being ruined because people would use all sorts of crap on them, thinking it's the right thing to do. Like lard. It's one of those very popular leather conditioner suggestion that's been passed on from generations. So anyway, while it may be the kind of abuse that a heavily coated jacket might take, Schott Naked cowhide really does seem to soak up whatever you put on it and even though it's an extremely durable hide, having it stuffed with random crap is never a good idea. For starters, it stains. It can get moldy. It might start reeking. Whatever. So I reckon if someone's jacket simply got stained so easily, of course they'd blame it on Schott, arguing that they have been using the exact same thing on their other leather jackets for years with no ill effect, while Schott instantly got ruined.

Using an actual leather conditioner on naked cow is perfectly okay. I mean, just look at the list of chemicals that were used during the tanning process in which the hide has been soaked up for months. I don't think there's anything you could come up with for a home-made conditioner that comes close. I tried and tested Pecard on a Schott Naked cow and it only did it good. Darkened it a little bit, for a little while, but that was it.

New Schott 618 Horsehide!!! Questions....

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