What are you Writing?

Mike,

Thanks for your detailed reply!

This is a short tale (about 6500-7000 words -- though I can see expanding it to a novelette or making it the core of something longer). So there isn't a lot of room for digressions. Scene 1 sets up the lead character/narrator, his unusual situation, and the outline of his problem; scene 2 gives us some more background on it and the world they're in; and then scene 3, the one I asked about and quoted above, jumps to the narrator conferring with his boss in her office. He explains an additional complication that was hinted at in scene 2. Scene 3 then ends with him being stuck with the job outlined in scene 1.

In a short piece like this, keeping it moving is especially important. I couldn't, and can't, see why opening a new scene with a line or two of dialogue, and then quickly explaining where they are before continuing the conversation, should be so terrible.

The entire genre of modern Science Fiction makes a point of dropping you down in medias res and letting you figure out when and where you are. All the explanations would bog a story down and kill it otherwise. It's tried and true in both the macro sense and the micro (just a couple of lines to start a scene) sense.

Exactly. The classic SF example is a line from one of (I think) Heinlein's stories: "The door dilated." You read that and you know this is not 20th Century America. Or in crime fiction, John D. MacDonald's, "We were about to give up and call it a night when somebody dropped the girl off the bridge."

Benzadmiral said:

in crime fiction, John D. MacDonald's, "We were about to give up and call it a night when somebody dropped the girl off the bridge."

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Total classic!

I finally had a breakthrough on my novel and now I think it's going to be much easier to finish. Thank goodness. I'm so sick of the darn thing that it's a wonder I haven't set it on fire yet.

AmateisGal said:

I finally had a breakthrough on my novel and now I think it's going to be much easier to finish. Thank goodness. I'm so sick of the darn thing that it's a wonder I haven't set it on fire yet.

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Hysterical! I too finally finished the early "independent film" essay and have put it briefly aside before starting to trim it into shape. Mysteriously, it started well then turned into a morass of "I don't want to do it!" Now that it's all written out I fear it not and revising should be a snap. Going back over the old novel one more time before it's off to the publisher, then ... more essays. That'll be the story of this whole year.

AmateisGal said:

Ooh, that's fantastic about the literary agent! I hope you get an offer of representation!

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Update: Five weeks went by with no word from the Literary Agent. The well-connected guy who recommended me to the Agent then contacted her again and made inquiries. She basically said "Very busy! I'll get to it shortly!" That was three weeks ago. Makes me feel sorry for aspiring authors who have no option but to cold-call agents and don't have an insider connection. I'm not complaining, mind you. I am just happy that a breathing human being somewhere is someday (maybe) planning to read it.

Tiki Tom said:

Update: Five weeks went by with no word from the Literary Agent. The well-connected guy who recommended me to the Agent then contacted her again and made inquiries. She basically said "Very busy! I'll get to it shortly!" That was three weeks ago. Makes me feel sorry for aspiring authors who have no option but to cold-call agents and don't have an insider connection. I'm not complaining, mind you. I am just happy that a breathing human being somewhere is someday (maybe) planning to read it.

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My advice is usually to get the agent to tell you when they will get back in touch. Six weeks used to be a common answer. They would almost NEVER get back to you in six weeks but my feeling is that you can move on to soliciting another agent at that point with no guilt or the suggestion that you've done something unethical. When possible I might carry thing tactic to editors etc. too. Everyone in the business HATES this sort of behavior but you have a life too and sometimes they never call you back at all. I'll be interested in what AmatisGal might say about this ...

From having been a "reader" in Hollywood for awhile I can say that there is nothing more painful than picking up yet another manuscript, 95% of which are terrible, and forcing yourself to start to read. It's so wonderful when you get a good one, though. Good doesn't always cut it today, however. My guess would be that an agent will be asking, "How can I sell this writer?" What's the hook/gag/trick to pitching this book? And then they ask themselves if there are obstacles in it's way. Sometimes they make themselves totally paranoid about it.

The only book I ever pitched to publishers (I might have gone into this already) was "Matterhorn" by Karl Marlantes. I took it to Bantam, Crown and maybe another I'm forgetting. The book needed work but I severely doubt Grove, who ultimately published it, did much more than give Karl a target page count and tell him to make it work in that number; he was a Rhodes Scholar and a business consultant all over the world, he's a good writer and nobody's fool. Anyway, the people I took it to all came back with, "After 9/11 no one will read a novel about Vietnam." They didn't "see" it like I did, nor did they see how well HE could sell it ... too bad, it was a NYT Bestseller and won numerous awards. I no longer try to sell books, I figure if I couldn't sell that one, I'd be wasting my time trying with any other. Grove, however, DID get it ... or him ... or both. It's what makes horse races.

Managed to get some writing done on my "fun" project, i.e. a novel I turn to when I'm stuck on the other one, or just want to have some fun writing and not worry about selling it.

MikeKardec said:

My advice is usually to get the agent to tell you when they will get back in touch. Six weeks used to be a common answer. They would almost NEVER get back to you in six weeks but my feeling is that you can move on to soliciting another agent at that point with no guilt or the suggestion that you've done something unethical. When possible I might carry thing tactic to editors etc. too. Everyone in the business HATES this sort of behavior but you have a life too and sometimes they never call you back at all. I'll be interested in what AmatisGal might say about this ...

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Unless the agent asked for an exclusive, there is no reason not to send a query out to other agents. And agents are vastly different in the ways they communicate. Some get back to you right away, some take weeks, and some don't get back to you at all. Before I landed my agent, I had a few almosts. One asked for the full manuscript and was taking a long time to get back to me, so I sent an email of inquiry. I heard back from her assistant and waited a few more weeks. Ultimately, the answer was no.

As far as being busy...I honestly don't know how agents manage to get through their workloads. That's why the query letter and/or samples pages are SO important. You have to catch their attention right away and if you don't, sorry Charlie!

I've found that agents at smaller, boutique agencies or ones that are solo get back to you better than the ones in the bigger agencies.

The most important thing, though, is to make sure that the agent represents what you're writing. If you send a mystery novel to one who only represents literary fiction, you're just wasting everyone's time. That's why doing the homework is so important. Follow them on social media (many, many agents are on Twitter) and look for interviews with them. Read their guidelines. Some are big sticklers for following the guidelines. Some will look for any excuse to pass on something, right down to their name being misspelled.

It's a game of tenacity. I found my agent the old-fashioned way by querying her. She asked for sample chapters, then asked for the full manuscript. Many people also connect with agents at writing conferences. I tried that once and was so nervous that I completely bungled my pitch.

The reality is, though, that it depends on what you want out of your project. My ultimate goal is to be published by a big commercial publisher or a strong independent publisher (think SourceBooks) and for that, I really need an agent. Smaller presses don't normally require agented submissions. And there's always self-publishing, too.

... and as I keep harping on about, there is nothing second rate or "vanity press" about self publishing these days. Self publishing or Kindle or major label E divisions like Hydra has become the paperback of the 2010s ... nothing less legit than if you published through Gold Medal or Penguin in the 1950s!

Got a new idea for a fantasy story; and bumped into a possible anthology I could submit an earlier SF tale to.

However, I'm uncertain if my story (with some slight rewrites) will fit their guidelines. They ask for a positive spin on possible futures connected with our recent Presidential winner. And if the spin is to be only positive, where's the conflict going to come from?

MikeKardec said:

... and as I keep harping on about, there is nothing second rate or "vanity press" about self publishing these days. Self publishing or Kindle or major label E divisions like Hydra has become the paperback of the 2010s ... nothing less legit than if you published through Gold Medal or Penguin in the 1950s!

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Finally received my rejection yesterday. I have to say it is the nicest rejection I have ever received... and I've seen plenty.


Now I will go back to my original plan which is to self publish. (Of course, since she was so nice and I have a foot in the door, I immediately asked her if she'd like to see my other book, the vintage murder mystery set in Hawai'i. I am shameless!) Also received another rejection of the Hawai'i book just this morning. If you are going to pursue this hobby, thick skin is a necessity.

Tiki Tom said:

Finally received my rejection yesterday. I have to say it is the nicest rejection I have ever received... and I've seen plenty.

Thank you, Tiki Tom, for sharing your lovely book Vienna Mixed Set. I felt like I had fallen through a door to Austria reading it, and your love for Vienna, its history and your family all shine through. However, travel books like yours must compete in a very tough market, and without more of a recognizable platform behind them, often struggle. Also, this book is very of-its-moment, often contrasting historical Vienna with the Vienna of today, and I'm concerned that in a few years, it will read as behind-the-times. I'm sorry to say I'm unable to offer you representation at this time, but I hope you continue writing. You clearly have an eye for combining descriptive language with a sense of adventure and an understanding of history. Of course another agent may feel differently, and I wish you the best of luck.​

Now I will go back to my original plan which is to self publish. (Of course, since she was so nice and I have a foot in the door, I immediately asked her if she'd like to see my other book, the vintage murder mystery set in Hawai'i. I am shameless!) Also received another rejection of the Hawai'i book just this morning. If you are going to pursue this hobby, thick skin is a necessity.

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That is a wonderful rejection! And trust me, I've had a LOT of rejections.

A thick skin is an absolute necessity. You can't make it in this business without one.

Good news -- the Land of Dust and Bones Weird West anthology that accepted a short story of mine last year, and then ran into difficulties (unspecified right now), has said they are on track for a July release. They asked if my story were still available, and if so, they would send me out a contract and initial payment ASAP. It's been so long, I've forgotten how much the payment was supposed to be!

Tiki Tom said:

Finally received my rejection yesterday. I have to say it is the nicest rejection I have ever received... and I've seen plenty.

Thank you, Tiki Tom, for sharing your lovely book Vienna Mixed Set. I felt like I had fallen through a door to Austria reading it, and your love for Vienna, its history and your family all shine through. However, travel books like yours must compete in a very tough market, and without more of a recognizable platform behind them, often struggle. Also, this book is very of-its-moment, often contrasting historical Vienna with the Vienna of today, and I'm concerned that in a few years, it will read as behind-the-times. I'm sorry to say I'm unable to offer you representation at this time, but I hope you continue writing. You clearly have an eye for combining descriptive language with a sense of adventure and an understanding of history. Of course another agent may feel differently, and I wish you the best of luck.​

Now I will go back to my original plan which is to self publish. (Of course, since she was so nice and I have a foot in the door, I immediately asked her if she'd like to see my other book, the vintage murder mystery set in Hawai'i. I am shameless!) Also received another rejection of the Hawai'i book just this morning. If you are going to pursue this hobby, thick skin is a necessity.

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Not shameless ... just acting like a good AGENT!!! Exactly the right thing to do. If they aren't going to help you, it doesn't matter what they think!

There is nothing about that rejection that you should believe except that they chose to be polite to you when they didn't necessarily have to. That, "it will read as behind the times," thing is just a "we don't really want to represent you but we don't know why or we're unwilling to say." Meaningless. They most likely don't want to represent you because they want something that seems to be a quicker sale (for any number of reasons), agents are focused on fast turnover because they make only a small piece of the action. Often, if they don't see and IMMEDIATE market (or just an editor they can send your thing to over one of their existing clients) they just move on. Never forget that you are in competition with their existing clients and once you have an agent you'll definitely want them to choose to be helping you over the "new guy."

A quicker sale could even mean that they only take new people when they see a pre existing need somewhere ... ie. an editor currently asking for exactly what you have to offer. It seems silly and short sighted but it was sure true when I worked in the Film biz. I never sold anything (not that I sold many things!) where I didn't learn pretty quickly that the powers that be wanted something like whatever-it-was to satisfy an internal need or problem specific to that moment in their lives (like "we want to show the bosses we have a Western ready to go" the Monday after Unforgiven makes 30 mil at the box office). I'm not sure it's possible to predict or even out-write that sort of thing, you just have to be at the right place at the right time. All these opinions are coming from my fairly limited perspective, of course ... your results will vary.

Benzadmiral said:

Good news -- the Land of Dust and Bones Weird West anthology that accepted a short story of mine last year, and then ran into difficulties (unspecified right now), has said they are on track for a July release. They asked if my story were still available, and if so, they would send me out a contract and initial payment ASAP. It's been so long, I've forgotten how much the payment was supposed to be!

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Good deal! Just make up a number. Just kidding ... they are no doubt short on funds, that's chronic in publishing.

Benzadmiral said:

Good news -- the Land of Dust and Bones Weird West anthology that accepted a short story of mine last year, and then ran into difficulties (unspecified right now), has said they are on track for a July release. They asked if my story were still available, and if so, they would send me out a contract and initial payment ASAP. It's been so long, I've forgotten how much the payment was supposed to be!

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Congratulations, Benzadmiral! Very exciting. One day I hope to be in a similar position. Well done.

And thank you, Amateisgal and MikeKardec, for your insights. As I've never had an agent or been published, interpreting all this is all new to me.

A few days ago I was having a political discussion, the nature of which is unimportant and inappropriate for this forum, but it reminded me of something I've probably said before but it could stand repeating because it is so fundamental: If you want to understand a character, if you want to be able to write a character, then discover how that character controls the world. This tells you what they do and how they do it.

Character is revealed by action. This is more true in "voyeuristic" and external mediums like theater or film, but it should have a part in fiction as well. The less "objective" interior narration you use (meaning going into the thoughts of a character who is honest with themselves and correct about the actions they see) the more your audience's imagination will be engaged ... if you're doing all the work for them then why should they help out? The motivation for all action, in a very nonspecific sense, is how you achieve your desires ... how you control the world around you. Mostly, that means how you control your interactions with others.

I learned this from turning acting training into writing training. I studied with Janet Alhanti (a very successful teacher in Hollywood) and had the opportunity to hang out with both she and Sandy Meisner, who was probably the most influential teacher in the world today. When they taught you to break down a scene, to both discover and memorize you performance, you turned every beat into "doable actions," concrete verb based behaviors designed to achieve your intention or relating to your reactions to new information. As a writer I realized, how or why I no longer remember, that I had to back up one step from that and discover the mentality that produced the "doable actions."

People are always struggling for control. Every. Minute. Of. The. Day. They want to control you, themselves, their environment ... mostly their environment because both you and their thoughts are a part of it. I, for instance want to be left alone. That doesn't mean that I want to be alone, far from it, but it means that I want to be accepted for who I am and not challenged. I tend to use a sort of deconstructive analysis on things; I try to pull the parts apart far enough so that I can figure them out ... thus the figuring out of the "how do they control the world" theory above. I'm not super smart but if I can get things in small enough pieces I can figure them out. I AM just smart enough to know that, which means that as long as I have time I'm fairly intellectually (and emotionally) competitive. If I have time to deconstruct I can seem smart, be effective, and be left in peace.

Many times you have to figure these things out in rewrite. In the beginning you just need your story to perform and figure out what it's about. It can be deadly to weigh yourself down in the beginning but as you go back through it you can start to see that your characters DO have underlying, control the world, behavior and you can turn that into something greater, adjust it all in the right direction, or you can untangle that place where suddenly they are no longer acting in their own best interest.

Acting in your own best interest is an extension of "controlling the world." It's remarkable how often, when coaching young script writers, I've seen people lose track of this aspect. They need a character to divulge a certain piece of information and they don't realize/or care that it's not in the character's best interest to do so. It need not be that it is AGAINST his best interest (though that would be the worst case) most people won't say anything that doesn't help them control the world in some way. But it needs to be something they are doing to further a conscious or unconscious goal and shouldn't be counter productive unless they are also driven by another, more powerful or unconscious, motivation to do that counterproductive thing.

Analyzing myself, I'm writing this because it's the closest I can come here to griping about my political discussion which I was just reliving as I took a shower!. I also want people to like me (so I've giving away things that might have value) and I'm a bit of a show off (two qualities that might end up in conflict with one and other in certain circumstances).

Our best character model is ourselves. As long as we are honest we are the only person we have so much information about!

I was going to get busy on an article today, but then I read today's comic page and completely lost my enthusiasm.


Keep smiling, Mark.

A new idea for a Weird West story. Still need to work out how it all, well, works out; but I have a solid central character and a compelling backstory for him.

LizzieMaine said:

I was going to get busy on an article today, but then I read today's comic page and completely lost my enthusiasm.

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Keep smiling, Mark.

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I laughed 'til I cried.

About halfway through this Weird West story. I'm experimenting with technique, as I often do. This time I'm trying to weave flashbacks into the narrative to fill in needed backstory while not stopping the main action at all. Any tips on doing this?