Berets, Anyone?

Nathaniel Finley · Aug 3, 2017

totallyfrozen said:
With all due respect, I've never met a beret yet that can stop a bullet, shrapnel, or flying debris. Berets are part of the garrison uniform. We never worn them in the field. A Kevlar helmet, a boonie for hot weather ops, or a watch cap for cold weather ops.

A boonie and watch cap aren't going to stop bullets, etc. either, and I could just as easily wear a beret under a Kevlar helmet. My point is that in the field I could also use a beret in multiple ways that a watch cap couldn't be used and a few ways that a boonie hat couldn't be used.

Just to clear, I used the word "combat beret" specifically to distinguish it from the berets that are issued to the U.S. Army. To my mind, those are parade items and have little practical value. Nor do I suppose that a commando would wear a beret into battle with identifying information on it.

The wikipedia article on military berets has a very brief historical discussion of the beret as a combat item. It's not fantastic, but then again it's wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_beret

My original comments were by no means from any kind of authority position, so I don't feel I have any respect due me - I just wanted to voice some ideas about using an actual beret in combat. Not being terribly invested in this topic I probably won't respond to any more discussion points, but I don't mind if you disagree with me. Your viewpoint is interesting and I wish you the best.

Kreissaege · Aug 3, 2017

Chiming in as a civilian, its currently far too hot to wear a beret. My beretial comfort zone ends at 20°C and right now we are quite beyond and its humid, too. Alas, the disadvantages of summer, I will bear them.

Harp · Aug 3, 2017

Nathaniel Finley said:
I Truly versatile and hassle-free. Floppy hats don't seem to offer half these perks. I've never been a commando and the fact that few (if any) U.S. SF operators actually wear berets into battle makes me think their versatility is not up to modern combat; but 200 years ago and even up through the French Indochina wars I reckon the beret was a godsend to a guerilla soldier.

Field operations recommend other headgear:U.S. Navy wool knit watch caps are ideal for cold climes;
while tropical usage often mandate a forehead sweat band with/without a boonie.

totallyfrozen · Aug 3, 2017

Nathaniel Finley said:
A boonie and watch cap aren't going to stop bullets, etc. either, and I could just as easily wear a beret under a Kevlar helmet. My point is that in the field I could also use a beret in multiple ways that a watch cap couldn't be used and a few ways that a boonie hat couldn't be used.

Well without a doubt, the beret has seen just as much civilian use as military use. I don't think berets are useless headwear by any means!
Personally, I simply don't consider them ideal field wear for military ops. I'm basing that on my own personal military experience which placed me mostly in either the arctic, arid, or tropical locations. I spent a very limited time in temperate climates. In a temperate climate, I think a beret would feel very nice in the fall and maybe even winter. I found it inadequate in the arctic and too hot in the tropics for me. During summers in the arctic, the beret was comfortable.
In my experience, the beret (at least the one Uncle Sam issued to me) was too bulky (even after shaving and shaping) to fit under a Kevlar helmet. Most troops just wore what's basically thought of as a bandana or "do rag" of olive drab or coyote brown under the Kevlar. In the very brief time you have to don the Pro-Mask (gas mask), you can slid it over the bandana but it could be problematic to quickly fit it over the beret considering that after you don the mask, you need to put your helmet back on. Certainly, my experience is limited as I didn't serve with every unit in every location.
For the record, I liked the look of the military beret and I think I looked damn good in it, FWIW.

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Daan · Aug 6, 2017

A lot of talk here recently on berets versus watch caps, boonies, Kevlar helmets and, most intriguing, "combat grade berets" (what on earth is a combat grade beret?). I have to confess, I find it fascinating how Americans can go on endlessly about berets in the military; pro's and con's, lovers and haters and whole internet fora full of arguments accordingly.
When I was in the air force, we were issued garrison caps (now there's a real useless piece of headgear!), but since then, the RNAF changed -very sensibly- to grey berets.

Anyway, glad I don't have to wear any military hat anymore and can choose from a fine collection of berets every day. And for those days that I do want to wear something different, there's always the beret casquette (peaked beret).

A real beret casquette is a true Béret Basque, meaning made of one thread of merino wool without additional material pieces added. The peak is pulled out under steam from the side of the beret, not sewed on.
Most European beret manufacturers have their own variety of peaked beret; Laulhère has their casquettes (presently on sale on the One-Offs page), Boinas Elósegui has the Pirineos, Boneteria Auloronesa the top model Béret Casquette Auloronesa and TONAK-FEZCO the Fandron flatcap.

One exception is Boinas Elósegui's Soleil model, which is a beret with added peak. This model is not in production anymore, but still available in small numbers at South Pacific Berets and this week, with the Pirineos model on SPECIAL @ a good discount.

And to the purists among fellow boineros I can say that there is nothing new about beret casquettes; these were in use as early as the 1920's!

Nathaniel Finley · Aug 6, 2017

Daan said:
A lot of talk here recently on berets versus watch caps, boonies, Kevlar helmets and, most intriguing, "combat grade berets" (what on earth is a combat grade beret?). I have to confess, I find it fascinating how Americans can go on endlessly about berets in the military; pro's and con's, lovers and haters and whole internet fora full of arguments accordingly.

Really, the Americans have gone on "endlessly" here? So sorry to have cluttered up your infinity, sir! Damn yanks!

As I stated above, I used the word "combat beret" specifically to distinguish it from the berets that are issued to the U.S. Army. To my mind, those are parade items and have little practical value.

But sure, "combat beret" is by no means a proper nomenclature.

totallyfrozen · Aug 6, 2017

Nathaniel Finley said:
Really, the Americans have gone on 'endlessly' here?" So sorry to have cluttered up your infinity, sir! Damn yanks!

+1

It's fashionable for the whole world to hate the USA (after they've taken whatever assistance we've provided, of course), but this is a hat forum. Let's keep the national hate to a minimum. I won't bash your country and you can abstain from bashing mine.

Berets are good looking and some people feel cozy and comfortable wearing them. Let's keep the focus where it should be...on the attire.

For what it's worth, the concept of a "combat beret" is not unheard of. As recently as Vietnam, the US Navy SEALs utilized them.

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KarlCrow · Aug 6, 2017

If a kiwi joining an atrociously boring argument two americans are having about berets is your idea of an international political incident, then you really need to turn the internet off.

Nathaniel Finley · Aug 6, 2017

Oh, God, I seriously don't care about any of this. Take care guys and thanks for the GREAT info on berets.

Daan · Aug 6, 2017

Oh dear... Looks like I offended some people with my insensitive comment about Americans and military berets. But, I wasn't even referring so much to the discussion here (despite fully agreeing with KarlCrow's comment

). Google something along the lines of "berets in the US army" and it won't be long to find long discussions about the pro's and con's of berets in the US Army, usually accompanied by much swearing, racist banter, strong nationalistic views, etc., culminating in articles like this one on CNN. Researching berets on the internet, I often get to sites like those - that's all...
So far for my response. Don't get your knickers in a twist, as we say here, and get on with it.

Back to berets and the origins of berets in the military. After the French Chasseurs Alpins, the Czechoslovak Legion was the second military unit to adopt the beret (based on the large Chasseur Alpin beret).

The Czechoslovak Legions were Czech and Slovak volunteer armed forces fighting together with the Entente powers during World War I. Their goal was to win the Allies' support for the creation of an independent country of Czechoslovakia, which was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Legions originated with small armed units organized from 1914 onwards by volunteer Czechs and Slovaks. Later, many Czechs and Slovaks captured during the war joined these units; with help of émigré intellectuals and politicians (Tomáš Masaryk, Milan Rastislav Štefánik and others) the Legions grew into a force of tens of thousands. The independence of Czechoslovakia was finally obtained in 1918.

photograph+of+meeting+of+Czech+legionnaires+of+USA+and+T.G.+Masaryk%252C+head+of+Czechoslovak+National+Council%252C+in+1918.jpg

President Masaryk posing with members of the Czech Legion

After three years of existence as a small brigade in the Imperial Russian Army (Česká družina), the Czechoslovak Legions in Russia were created in 1917. Other units had been fighting in France since the war's beginning (including volunteers from the US), and later in Italy and Serbia. Their membership consisted of Czech and Slovak prisoners of war in Russia, Serbia and Italy, and Czech and Slovak emigrants in France and Russia who had already created the "Czech company" in Russia and a unit named "Nazdar" in France in 1914. The Legions were actively involved in many battles of World War I, including Vouziers, Arras, Zborov, Doss Alto, Bakhmach, and others. They were also important in the Russian Civil War.

The vast majority (around 90%) of the legionaries were Czechs. Slovaks made up 7.4% in the Russian legions, 3% in the Italian and 16% in the French.

The term "Legions" was not widely used during the war but was adopted shortly afterward. It is primarily based on their French connection – they reported to France and were, in a general way, thought of as related to the French Foreign Legion.

totallyfrozen · Aug 9, 2017

Daan said:
...Back to berets and the origins of berets in the military...

Very informative. Thanks!

Those look like some very large berets. Perhaps they're not much larger than current military berets and my eyes are tricking me.

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Kreissaege · Aug 9, 2017

Most civilian berets are larger than those contemporary Jarmulke-sized military ones.

(What good is a beret, if it doesnt provide shelter with a generous fold?)

GrayEyes · Aug 9, 2017

Kreissaege said:
Most civilian berets are larger than those contemporary Jarmulke-sized military ones.

That made me think of another use for small-diameter berets.* They can double as yarmulkes.

*See post #2019.

Daan · Aug 9, 2017

GrayEyes said:
That made me think of another use for small-diameter berets.* They can double as yarmulkes.

*See post #2019.

I haven't come across any stories or visual evidence of berets acting as yarmulkes or kippahs, but I have no doubt that many religious Jews prefer to wear a beret over a kippah when out in public.
And that is no different for observant Muslims. In Tito's communist Yugoslavia many Muslims chose to wear a beret over their skullcap.

Mecedonia+1959+Celebrating+household+(men+only)+greeting+guests+from+the+village+of+Podgorce+who+have+brought+a+ram+as+a+gift..jpg

When the communists came into power after 1945, the traditional Muslim fez was not outright banned, but it's use was very much discouraged (to say the least).

Bosnian Muslims, not known for religious fundamentalism, adopted the Basque beret as a practical hat to cover their heads, suitable while performing prayers and the added bonus of keeping the Partisans happy (the beret was, of course, a partisan-symbol as well) and the percentage of Partisans among Muslims was the highest in Bosnia during WWII.

Bosnia,+Sarajevo,+Senior+man+reading+Koran+by+grave+in+cemetery.jpg

These days, after the Yugoslav wars of the 1990's, the fez made a return in Bosnia, but still, many Bosnians (Muslim, Croats and Serbs) stay faithful to the beret.

GrayEyes · Aug 10, 2017

Daan said:
I haven't come across any stories or visual evidence of berets acting as yarmulkes or kippahs,

Here's one!

religious-jew-black-beret-jerusalem-israel-september-gray-bearded-carefully-chooses-ritual-plant-myrtle-sukkot-45263940.jpg

(Image borrowed from the internet. Full source: https://www.dreamstime.com/editoria...oses-ritual-plant-myrtle-sukkot-image45263940)

The gentleman is wearing a black beret as his religiously-required head covering.

Daan said:
but I have no doubt that many religious Jews prefer to wear a beret over a kippah when out in public.

True, he could be wearing the beret over his yarmulke, but since he lives in Jerusalem, a city with many religious Jews, there would be no need to hide his yarmulke under a cap or hat.

It does make me wonder about Basque or Béarnais Jews. Maybe they wear berets on top of their yarmulkes in public.

totallyfrozen · Aug 10, 2017

Daan said:
...I have no doubt that many religious Jews prefer to wear a beret over a kippah when out in public.
And that is no different for observant Muslims. In Tito's communist Yugoslavia many Muslims chose to wear a beret over their skullcap...
Bosnian Muslims, not known for religious fundamentalism, adopted the Basque beret as a practical hat to cover their heads, suitable while performing prayers and the added bonus of keeping the Partisans happy (the beret was, of course, a partisan-symbol as well)...

GrayEyes said:
The gentleman is wearing a black beret as his religiously-required head covering.

True, he could be wearing the beret over his yarmulke, but since he lives in Jerusalem, a city with many religious Jews, there would be no need to hide his yarmulke under a cap or hat.

It does make me wonder about Basque or Béarnais Jews. Maybe they wear berets on top of their yarmulkes in public.

Do either/both of you think it was mostly a seasonal thing?
Do you think they wore the beret over top of or instead of the orthodox headwear for warmth during the colder months?

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GrayEyes · Aug 11, 2017

totallyfrozen said:
Do either/both of you think it was mostly a seasonal thing? Do you think they wore the beret over top of or instead of the orthodox headwear for warmth during the colder months?

I don't think so. According to the caption, the photo was taken in Jerusalem on 13 September 2013. I've been in Jerusalem in early September, and it's hot. The average daily high is around 28 degrees C (over 82 F), and I think 2013 was hotter than that.

My guess is that this man wanted to fulfill his religious obligation, but with some style.

ErikFid · Aug 11, 2017

Wore my new blue Aotearoa to the city this morning and was asked by a little fellow if I was a film director. I told him that I love watching, but am not much good at shooting films. He went on to tell me that all good directors wear a beret and, getting deeper into the subject, mentioned a few directors proving his statement.
I certainly had not heard of Ingmar Bergman at elementary school!

Nico · Aug 11, 2017

Another cool one at work today. Wearing my green Laulhère Héritage.

totallyfrozen · Aug 12, 2017

1280almas said:
Let me try to tell something that happened in Spain with berets some time ago, this weird action is called "capar la boina" I guess in english means "castrate the beret" or something like that. As you can imagine it's about removing the rabo, cabillou, txortena.
It was a common practice, some kind of joke, just for fun and well accepted. In fact the owner didn't take it off.
To perform this you need to grab el rabo with one hand and spin the beret with the other, when it started to turn back hit the beret.
When I was in the army 20 yrs ago, berets didn't have rabo and we removed the lining and everything, instead.

Are you saying it was a joke that a person would do to someone else's beret rather than their own beret?
Would that make a hole in the beret or damage it?

Like your Army beret, the berets in the American Army also do not have el rabo. They do not come with lining either.

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