Doctor.... Who? Spoilers! Really, don't read if ur not up to date.

Seb Lucas said:

No, no no! Nothing worse than seeing these aging, portly actors revisit the role. It just demolishes the slender illusion that the doctor is a real being not a compeltion of has-been convention fodder. There is really no clever way of making use of these guys now they are elderly. Except Davison's intermittently amusing 50th anniversary video. The Tom Baker cameo in the 50th was fun but only because he didn't come on as Doctor 4.

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I believe it would work. I hated Baker's cameo in the 50th, but I hated the 50th from start to finish. Incredibly poorly written, and the whole plotline felt forced around those they could persuade to make a reappearance rather than a coherent story.

Edward said:

You'll probably get another chance to be on the receiving end of him soon - I hear he and Gatiss are going to do Dracula next. Which is encouraging because, you know, with him leaving Who and Sherlock being effectively over, I was worried he might not get the chance to ruin something I used to like again.

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Edward, I am getting really conflicted signals from you regarding Mr. Moffatt. How do you really feel about him???

I do really enjoy Coupling though.

And, to be honest, we have really enjoyed the new season of Sherlock so far (first two episodes) [ducks to avoid being hit by internet brick thrown....]

MisterCairo said:

Edward, I am getting really conflicted signals from you regarding Mr. Moffatt. How do you really feel about him???

I do really enjoy Coupling though.

And, to be honest, we have really enjoyed the new season of Sherlock so far (first two episodes) [ducks to avoid being hit by internet brick thrown....]

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Heh. Yeah. Not a fan. Coupling, granted, was a good show. Moffat's problem, as I always say, is that he can write well, but he needs a serious editing to keep him on track and off the "me so clever" stuff. The first two seasons of Sherlock were great, outstanding stuff (even as, under his watch at that time, Doctor Who declined terribly). It's just a shame the rest was so bad. Granted, though, the first episode of Series 4 felt like they were getting back on track (despite having to cope with the excesses of season 3, not least the dreadful Mary), and 4.2 was better, if still flawed. The closer of series 4 (and likely the show itself) is, alas, a real stinker.

Edward said:

Heh. Yeah. Not a fan. Coupling, granted, was a good show. Moffat's problem, as I always say, is that he can write well, but he needs a serious editing to keep him on track and off the "me so clever" stuff. The first two seasons of Sherlock were great, outstanding stuff (even as, under his watch at that time, Doctor Who declined terribly). It's just a shame the rest was so bad. Granted, though, the first episode of Series 4 felt like they were getting back on track (despite having to cope with the excesses of season 3, not least the dreadful Mary), and 4.2 was better, if still flawed. The closer of series 4 (and likely the show itself) is, alas, a real stinker.

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We are going to see the last episode shortly. Our daughters have become fans of the series (to the point our eldest prefers Benedict to Robert DJ).

Edward said:

I believe it would work. I hated Baker's cameo in the 50th, but I hated the 50th from start to finish. Incredibly poorly written, and the whole plotline felt forced around those they could persuade to make a reappearance rather than a coherent story.

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I think this is a major flaw in all the multi-Doctor stories -- it always seems like the guest Doctors are there more to make nostalgic references to their eras, and to mechanically display their various tics, quirks, and catchphrases than to really participate in a sensible, integrated story. "The Three Doctors" was OK enough in that it was basically only Two and Three doing their crosstalk act, with One sneering from the sidelines, but "The Five Doctors" had so much going on in it, and so many fanboy continuity references in it, that it kept forgetting to tell a story. "The Two Doctors" had a lot of potential, but if you have Two and Jamie standing there and you don't ever have them actually do anything that's true to their characters, why bother? I was really, really disapponted with that one.

I actually liked the Five-Ten skit, for what it was, just a cute bit of throwaway nonsense, but the 50th Anniversary really bugged me. When they realized that Eccleston wasn't going to do it, they should have bagged the whole story and started over. The hole left was just too big.

LizzieMaine said:

When they realized that Eccleston wasn't going to do it, they should have bagged the whole story and started over.

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Does Eccleston have a hate-on for Doctor Who? I'm sure he's done other work but I haven't seen it. He should have done the job for three seasons, say, and cashed the cheques like most actors would.

From what has been pieced together from interviews, Eccleston left because he didn't like the way the "little people" on the show were being treated by the higher ups -- there were a couple of people in particular, who he has never named publicly, who tended to treat the rank and file crew people abusively, and he didn't like it and told them so. Unlike a lot of actors, he had the courage of his convictions and quit. While I would have liked very much to see three years' worth of Nine, I do have to admire his principles in taking the stand that he did.

Aside from that, though, Eccleston has spoken well in recent years of the show as a show, and seems to have always been respectful in dealing with the fandom. He seems like a pretty decent guy who simply believes in taking a stand and sticking to it.

LizzieMaine said:

From what has been pieced together from interviews, Eccleston left because he didn't like the way the "little people" on the show were being treated by the higher ups -- there were a couple of people in particular, who he has never named publicly, who tended to treat the rank and file crew people abusively, and he didn't like it and told them so. Unlike a lot of actors, he had the courage of his convictions and quit. While I would have liked very much to see three years' worth of Nine, I do have to admire his principles in taking the stand that he did.

Aside from that, though, Eccleston has spoken well in recent years of the show as a show, and seems to have always been respectful in dealing with the fandom. He seems like a pretty decent guy who simply believes in taking a stand and sticking to it.

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Some interesting anecdotes in this article:

http://screenrant.com/doctor-who-reason-why-christopher-eccleston-left-season-2/

Thanks folks, for the info re Eccleston. For some reason I had in my head the idea that he'd quit because he thought the whole enterprise lowbrow or something (must have been something misleading which I read a long time ago). I'm glad to learn it was a principled choice.

LizzieMaine said:

I think this is a major flaw in all the multi-Doctor stories -- it always seems like the guest Doctors are there more to make nostalgic references to their eras, and to mechanically display their various tics, quirks, and catchphrases than to really participate in a sensible, integrated story. "The Three Doctors" was OK enough in that it was basically only Two and Three doing their crosstalk act, with One sneering from the sidelines, but "The Five Doctors" had so much going on in it, and so many fanboy continuity references in it, that it kept forgetting to tell a story. "The Two Doctors" had a lot of potential, but if you have Two and Jamie standing there and you don't ever have them actually do anything that's true to their characters, why bother? I was really, really disapponted with that one.

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The Three Doctors seems to have very much been the model for what Moffat ended up doing with Tennant and Smith alongside Hurt. (How I wish the latter could have lived to do a full run at the Doctor!). What it did do for me, though I liked them both in the role (crappy writing that Smith suffered aside) was to emphasise ten and eleven's similarities - too much so, for me, at the time.

I have good memeories of the Five Doctors, but that was when it was originally broadcast and I can't have been yet ten. Definitely those sorts of things are always going to be a bit of fluff. They do seem to go into it assuming that (like the Christmas Special) there will be a large chunk of audience which is not composed of regular viewers, and they can't resist the urge to dumb it down a bit for the newbies....

I actually liked the Five-Ten skit, for what it was, just a cute bit of throwaway nonsense, but the 50th Anniversary really bugged me. When they realized that Eccleston wasn't going to do it, they should have bagged the whole story and started over. The hole left was just too big.

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Yes, the 5/10 was a lot of fun. (Their family chemistry really shone through.) The 50th was Moffat at his bombastic worst. Definitely, the story did suffer from being rejigged as it was, but there were other glaring flaws too. Such as why would Rose be the spirit of the TARDIS in particular, to appear to the War Doctor, when the War Doctor never met Rose? Almost as stupid an idea as Rose being Badwolf. (Almost.) Would have made far more sense for it to be Clara, given she was the one who was split by the Matrix to drop through and help the Doctor in every generation. And yes, replacing Ecclestone with Tennant didn't work. Would have made far more sense to have McGann and Eccleston involved than Tennant and Smith, ultimately. They really should have started again from scratch with the idea. Maybe even given us a "future" Doctor (or is he? Is it really the Master claiming to be a future Regen? et cetera) than the War Doctor in that context. It wasn't as bad as bringing back Gallifrey and undermining all the depth, guilt, anguish, pathos... of the rebooted Doctor in doing so, but it was still bad. Hopefully Chibnall can repair the mess Moffat leaves behind.

LizzieMaine said:

From what has been pieced together from interviews, Eccleston left because he didn't like the way the "little people" on the show were being treated by the higher ups -- there were a couple of people in particular, who he has never named publicly, who tended to treat the rank and file crew people abusively, and he didn't like it and told them so. Unlike a lot of actors, he had the courage of his convictions and quit. While I would have liked very much to see three years' worth of Nine, I do have to admire his principles in taking the stand that he did.

Aside from that, though, Eccleston has spoken well in recent years of the show as a show, and seems to have always been respectful in dealing with the fandom. He seems like a pretty decent guy who simply believes in taking a stand and sticking to it.

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Interesting. I'm not sure how far he 'quit' - it was widely reported at the time that he had only ever signed on to do one series - but plausibly that's why he didn't stay on.... I'd have liked to have seen more of his Doctor.

Well. Just most of the Christmas Special to sit through until Moffat is gone and we see what a Lady Doctor makes of it all. I still believe Moffat gonig will make more of a change than the Doctor's genderswitch. (In a good way).

I imagine they had to knock out the 50th fairly quickly with lots of other projects competing. Sure, they knew it was coming, but imagine trying to get the right mix of former cast regulars together and then trying to build a plot around them. It's a logistics exercise as much as a writing one. You are going to have to make terrible compromises. The Five Doctors was bloody awful too. I thought the 50th was pretty bad and a missed opportunity but really the main problem with Moffat is/was his devoting too much time on quirks and cute set ups and not enough on narrative. Too often resolutions have 5 minutes to deliver their improbable results. Not enough time is spent on the meat and potatoes of writing. The story.

I like John Hurt but I thought he made a pretty poor War Doctor. Really Eccleston was the war Doctor - and that's how the series was originally written. Hurt was so old and frail, even in his leathers he looked incapable of being a combat veteran so for me Hurt was very unlikely destroyer of worlds. I would have gladly accepted him as a past Doctor but not that one. I would have prefered Paul McGann as the War Doctor and this would have made use of him more successfully and provided him with a great re-entry into the current story line.

I imagine Eccleston was signed for one season for the simple reason that they weren't sure it would come off. He "quit" in as much as he didn't want to sign up for any more.

"Awww, brillyunt!"

I'm excited to see a new Doctor (although the trick is getting a bit old) and I really hope the new scripts have better stories, more rigorous plotting and are far less reliant on easy sentimentality.

We'll see. Chibnall has worked with her before and apparently really wanted a female Doctor, so he perhaps has some great ideas. As long as the writing is good, and it doesn't turn into tokenism. I'd be more worried if Moffat was staying on, given his dreadful misogyny.

Not a bad Special, though. The 'old doctor is old and sexist' schtick was weak (but typically Moffat), and he had to get his dig in at the fanbase with a brief appearance of the widely hated Clara, but otherwise it was okay. Certainly better than most of Moffat's writing. What a shame, though, that an actor of the quality of Capaldi was mostly wasted.

I just hope Chibnall stays long enough and has the balls to pull off an eventual surprise regen, rather than the tediously predictable three year tour of duty with neat end of series or Christmas special switchover. Great for logistics, bad for show.

I think the problem with the First Doctor in the special was that Hartnell himself never played "The First Doctor," except once in 1973. He was playing simply "The Doctor," without any idea that he was "The First" of anything. The character of "The First Doctor" has only ever existed in the multi-doctor shows, and as such has never really been anything more than a distillation of what people imagine him to have been instead of The Doctor as Hartnell played him. In this particular case, what we got was an approximation of "The First Doctor" as he was at the start of his adventures -- kind of an arrogant jerk -- but not the much more nuanced character he'd become by the time he was ready to regenerate. I like the actual Hartnell doctor a lot, and he's never really gotten the credit he deserves for the growth he displayed during his time.

I imagine when the time comes for Twelve to reappear in some future multi-doctor special, he'll be digested down to "the one with the sunglasses, the electric guitar, and no social skills" rather than showing any sign of the depth that the character has actually shown over his run.

As for Thirteen, I'd like to see her end up marooned on Earth for a while without the Tardis, trying to figure out her new identity while surrounded by a collection of unhelpful humans. That assuming she isn't going to die immediately upon impact and regenerate forthwith into Tilda Swinton. There's a shocker for you.

I should hope that Capaldi would have the class to turn down a reprisal of that nature! I really did feel sorry for him, he was put into the same position as Ewan McGregor in Phantom Menace: getting to be part of the universe of which you were a fan as a child, only to be given utter rot with which to work....

I though the Bradley Doctor was kind of bland. I really resented the CGI morphing from Hartnell into Bradley - self-consciously drawing attention to the casting and artiface. Why do this? Why not just show us Bradley in costume? We know it's not really Hartnell. We know it's a TV show. I can't remember Who taking steps like this to undermine its own magic.

Okay, so this is an old thread, but, here I come to resurrect it.

Stumbled into the middle of Shada last night. BBC America was calling it "The Lost Episode." What little I know of this is it was filmed in 1980 and a writer's strike happened so it was never completed. Sounded like the producers gathered the original cast (or what was left of it) like Tom Baker and Lalla Ward and recorded their audio and animated the missing sections and cobbled together the rest.

Of course every ad had the previews of Jodie Whittaker's 13th Doctor with her THREE companions. I don't have high hopes and probably won't watch because I'll probably forget about it by the fall.

Anyway, was hoping some of you who know about this could give me more info. I knew Shada's script was written by Douglas Adams. I bought the novel, thinking he also wrote that, but it was adapted by a DW script writer, Gareth Roberts (who's clearly never written a novel in his life). A case of false advertising since Adams name is in giant letters on the cover. So, yeah, never read it all...

Thoughts.

There have been multiple attempts over the years to do something with that story. I remember there was a VHS release with Baker doing interstitials to cover the story gaps, and a couple of different radio versions, including one that adapted it into a story for the Eighth Doctor instead of the Fourth. The BBC has been trying to recover its investment on that story for almost forty years now, you'd think they'd have accomplished it by now.

"Shada" is also the source of the Fourth Doctor footage seen in "The Five Doctors," so they were trying salvage operations on it since 1983, at least.

I'm always amazed that Baker and Ward can still work together, considering what a train wreck their marriage was.

It was a bit jarring to watch the story jump between animation and film. It's odd the BBC only recently decided to do this when they've spent so many years doing this. DW being the worldwide property that it's now become (and the advertising opportunity that this afforded to older fans) I get it. It ended with the disembodied voice of Ward coming out of an open door on the Tardis and an aged Baker alone, laughing at us. It was weird.

Know very little of their marriage and was shocked to find they'd been married in the first place. I know she divorced him and married Richard Dawkins. Don't really like to know about the personal lives of actors.

Ugh. The Five Doctors. Now there's a train wreck.