So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

sheeplady · Jan 20, 2018

Assuming that someone who is transgender *looks* and *dresses* like their preferred gender to outward appearances; I would rather, as a mother, see them use the facility that corresponds to their appearance.

Sending transgender men who haven't had bottom surgery to the ladies room is a recipe for disaster; men don't belong in the ladies room. And if I saw a man loitering around a ladies room, I'd alert the management. Conversely, I'm not sending anyone who looks like a woman into a men's room.

And, to make a point, there's probably been transgender people using the bathroom right along side you for years... because they look like your gender.

Among other parents I know, they are far more concerned about having young children of the opposite sex out and about and accommodating bathrooms. (Such as a father with a five year old daughter.) I have a son, and its been recommended to me that i dont let him use the men's room by himself until he's 13. I know one person who thinks that even then I should barge into the men's room, make sure it's clear, and stalk the outside until he's done. No thank you- I'm not taking my 12 year old boy into the ladies room.

LizzieMaine · Jan 20, 2018

tonyb said:
I'm with Gore Vidal on many matters, including his view that the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are best used as adjectives, not nouns, just as most other terms denoting differences in humans are not in themselves definitive of who those humans are.

It was easy enough as a young person to be dazzled by Vidal's prose -- his essays much more so than his novels. But it was his courage that came to most impress me -- his being "out" at a time when a career might be destroyed by such a revelation, when a person might indeed be murdered on account of it. His public tangles with WF Buckley are for the ages. I refer anybody who doubts how far we've come since 1968 to the audio of their on-air exchange during the Democratic Party's National Convention in August of that year. These days, even the Troglodyte-iest of Troglodytes wouldn't dare sneeringly say on air that his adversary is "a queer" and then threaten to physically assault him.

Vidal got off the best quip of that exchange when he told Buckley that "Myra Breckinridge" was based on him. A rapier beats a bludgeon every time.

HudsonHawk · Jan 20, 2018

sheeplady said:
Assuming that someone who is transgender *looks* and *dresses* like their preferred gender to outward appearances; I would rather, as a mother, see them use the facility that corresponds to their appearance.

Sending transgender men who haven't had bottom surgery to the ladies room is a recipe for disaster; men don't belong in the ladies room. And if I saw a man loitering around a ladies room, I'd alert the management. Conversely, I'm not sending anyone who looks like a woman into a men's room.

And, to make a point, there's probably been transgender people using the bathroom right along side you for years... because they look like your gender.

Among other parents I know, they are far more concerned about having young children of the opposite sex out and about and accommodating bathrooms. (Such as a father with a five year old daughter.) I have a son, and its been recommended to me that i dont let him use the men's room by himself until he's 13. I know one person who thinks that even then I should barge into the men's room, make sure it's clear, and stalk the outside until he's done. No thank you- I'm not taking my 12 year old boy into the ladies room.

This is what gets me about the bathroom issue. The argument is that if we let transgender women use the ladies room, perverts will start dressing up as women to prey on our little girls. One, there is nothing that prevents that from happening now, and two, the perverts want to prey on our children alright, but it's not our daughters they are after.

Ticklishchap · Jan 20, 2018

tonyb said:
I'm with Gore Vidal on many matters, including his view that the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are best used as adjectives, not nouns, just as most other terms denoting differences in humans are not in themselves definitive of who those humans are.

I also admire Gore Vidal. Speaking as a man who is adjectivally homosexual, I have found great tolerance and full acceptance working in an all-male environment. Most of my closest friends are straight men and I have many straight women friends as well. I value both equally of course - and part of that is valuing the differences between them. Living in London I have friends from a wide range of cultural backgrounds, which is a privilege. I have also found - until the rise of Islamism - that North African and Turkey have a more rational approach to these issues as they affect men - although deep problems with attitudes towards women.

'Liberals', however, would rather I waved a rainbow flag and got into a group with lesbians and transgenders - two subcultures to which I wish no harm but to whom with which I feel no cultural or personal affinity.

The 'trans' thing worries me specifically because it is used in extreme religious societies, e.g. Iran, as a 'cure' for male homosexuality (and sometimes lesbianism as well). It also - because of the recent conflation with gay rights - revives negative stereotypes about gay men as effeminate, etc., which had been largely seen off in the recent past. I also find the idea of creating a 'gender neutral' society dystopian because I think that it is good for both men and women - straight or gay - to have their own spaces, clubs, activities to complement the mixed spaces, clubs, activities that are also very valuable. Its a matter of both/and rather than either/or, 'liberal' activism (slightly political, so please forgive me Mr Fading Fast) speaks of diversity but in practice imposes a straitjacket of conformity. I am for as much individual freedom as possible, but would balance that by sensitivity and respect for the privacy and freedom of others.

LizzieMaine · Jan 20, 2018

HudsonHawk said:
This is what gets me about the bathroom issue. The argument is that if we let transgender women use the ladies room, perverts will start dressing up as women to prey on our little girls. One, there is nothing that prevents that from happening now, and two, the perverts want to prey on our children alright, but it's not our daughters they are after.

And they wear cassocks more often than dresses.

3fingers · Jan 20, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
And they wear cassocks more often than dresses.

I was raised Catholic. When that mess blew up I was furious and in discussing it with the pastor of my wife's church (Methodist), he hit me with a bombshell when he said as outrageous as it was, it was an even larger problem in protestant churches and wasn't handled any better. His take was that Catholic clergymen were easier targets for condemnation since many people find their vows odd or difficult to understand and some thought that perversion was the result of chastity.
I have some ideas that I won't share here, not the place for it, but apparently this behavior is widespread across all of society.

ChiTownScion · Jan 21, 2018

tonyb said:
His public tangles with WF Buckley are for the ages. I refer anybody who doubts how far we've come since 1968 to the audio of their on-air exchange during the Democratic Party's National Convention in August of that year. These days, even the Troglodyte-iest of Troglodytes wouldn't dare sneeringly say on air that his adversary is "a queer" and then threaten to physically assault him.

I was thirteen years old when that happened, and in retrospect, what is most shocking about it was that Buckley was so unlike the usual Buckley. I don't care for his politics but I always admired the way that William F. displayed cool calm under fire- on most occasions. Not that time. He was like a drunk provoked into a barroom brawl.

sheeplady · Jan 21, 2018

Sexual abuse isn't limited to one field or another, but there is something especially hideous about the abuse coming from someone who is supposed to help bring you closer to God. That and how easily this status can be abused (God wants you to do this, if you tell you will go to hell, etc.).

LizzieMaine · Jan 21, 2018

We had a paritculary foul scandal along such lines in our area involving an Episcopal priest, so yes, denomination doesn't seem to matter much. As with most sexual abuse, it's primarily about a power relationship.

Here in New England, the most furor focused on the Catholic church not so much because of the denomination itself but the egregiousness of the ecclesiastical coverup, which, as was thoroughly documented, went all the way to the highest levels of the Vatican. I reject the hellfire doctrine, but if I did believe in it, I know where Bernard Francis Law would be right now.

tonyb · Jan 21, 2018

ChiTownScion said:
I was thirteen years old when that happened, and in retrospect, what is most shocking about it was that Buckley was so unlike the usual Buckley. I don't care for his politics but I always admired the way that William F. displayed cool calm under fire- on most occasions. Not that time. He was like a drunk provoked into a barroom brawl.

I could never get past his smugness and pedantry. Nothing betrays the gasbag quite like the five-dollar word where the five-cent one suffices.

ChiTownScion · Jan 21, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
We had a paritculary foul scandal along such lines in our area involving an Episcopal priest, so yes, denomination doesn't seem to matter much. As with most sexual abuse, it's primarily about a power relationship.

Here in New England, the most furor focused on the Catholic church not so much because of the denomination itself but the egregiousness of the ecclesiastical coverup, which, as was thoroughly documented, went all the way to the highest levels of the Vatican. I reject the hellfire doctrine, but if I did believe in it, I know where Bernard Francis Law would be right now.

One particular clergy sexual abuse case hit a little too close to home. Long story, and I'll omit all but the essential details here.

A priest who taught classical languages at my prep school was assigned to meet with my mom for a pre- enrollment conference for the parents of incoming freshmen and told her that, if I did well in Latin my first semester I would be tagged to enter a class in Greek as well, and then a class in Mandarin Chinese. Because of some mutual connections, he told her that he's "look out " for me later in the school year. Then I threw the whole train off the tracks by nearly failing Latin and ending up in a remedial class.

Anyway, it turned out that this particular priest, Donald McGuire, had been sexually abusing young boys for some time, was doing so when we both were at the school, and continued to do so for decades after. He had risen in the meantime as somewhat of a retreat leader- and had even served as a spiritual advisor to Mother Teresa of Calcutta. It wasn't until the 1990's that, because of the abolition of the statute of limitations for sexual abuse in the state of Wisconsin, he was indicted and prosecuted in that state. He was bringing boys up to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, from the Chicago suburbs and molesting them in that state at the home of one of his friends. He was convicted and appealed his conviction.

While on bond pending the appeal of the state conviction, he was indicted on several counts of taking minors across state lines for sexual abuse, and was indicted on Federal charges. Some of those kids were as young as nine and ten: he would approach the parents and convince them that he wanted to help their young sons discern whether they had a calling to the priesthood. And then of course, the usual lures of alcohol and pornography were used to lure the kids.

I read that he died in 2017 in the Federal Correctional Medical Facility in Springfield Missouri while serving a 25 year Federal sentence. The archdiocese, and the Jesuit Province of Chicago, were both sued. A classmate of mine who had suddenly "disappeared" one day emerged (and by now, we were both in our late 50's) as one of the party plaintiffs who received a multi- million dollar settlement. I had to wonder how, but for a few twists of fate, his tragic experience could just as easily been mine.

One of the things that both flabbergasts and disgusts me is that, to this day, there are still some who believe that this guy was innocent and the victim of those who "had it out for him. "

You certainly are correct in asserting that it is about the abuse of power within a relationship, Lizzie. The Chicago Jesuit Province moved this guy around whenever anything came to light, and then he was moved around the country when there were no longer any hiding places within that Province. He was meeting victims around the country, and the pattern of abuse took place over decades. And as you also noted: the institutional cover up was even as more egregious as the sexual abuse itself.

tonyb · Jan 21, 2018

ChiTownScion said:
One particular clergy sexual abuse case hit a little too close to home. Long story, and I'll omit all but the essential details here.

A priest who taught classical languages at my prep school was assigned to meet with my mom for a pre- enrollment conference for the parents of incoming freshmen and told her that, if I did well in Latin my first semester I would be tagged to enter a class in Greek as well, and then a class in Mandarin Chinese. Because of some mutual connections, he told her that he's "look out " for me later in the school year. Then I threw the whole train off the tracks by nearly failing Latin and ending up in a remedial class.

Anyway, it turned out that this particular priest, Donald McGuire, had been sexually abusing young boys for some time, was doing so when we both were at the school, and continued to do so for decades after. He had risen in the meantime as somewhat of a retreat leader- and had even served as a spiritual advisor to Mother Teresa of Calcutta. It wasn't until the 1990's that, because of the abolition of the statute of limitations for sexual abuse in the state of Wisconsin, he was indicted and prosecuted in that state. He was bringing boys up to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, from the Chicago suburbs and molesting them in that state at the home of one of his friends. He was convicted and appealed his conviction.

While on bond pending the appeal of the state conviction, he was indicted on several counts of taking minors across state lines for sexual abuse, and was indicted on Federal charges. Some of those kids were as young as nine and ten: he would approach the parents and convince them that he wanted to help their young sons discern whether they had a calling to the priesthood. And then of course, the usual lures of alcohol and pornography were used to lure the kids.

I read that he died in 2017 in the Federal Correctional Medical Facility in Springfield Missouri while serving a 25 year Federal sentence. The archdiocese, and the Jesuit Province of Chicago, were both sued. A classmate of mine who had suddenly "disappeared" one day emerged (and by now, we were both in our late 50's) as one of the party plaintiffs who received a multi- million dollar settlement. I had to wonder how, but for a few twists of fate, his tragic experience could just as easily been mine.

One of the things that both flabbergasts and disgusts me is that, to this day, there are still some who believe that this guy was innocent and the victim of those who "had it out for him. "

You certainly are correct in asserting that it is about the abuse of power within a relationship, Lizzie. The Chicago Jesuit Province moved this guy around whenever anything came to light, and then he was moved around the country when there were no longer any hiding places within that Province. He was meeting victims around the country, and the pattern of abuse took place over decades. And as you also noted: the institutional cover up was even as more egregious as the sexual abuse itself.

Wow.

Can't say I've ever gotten that close to an active pedophiliac abuser, not to my knowledge anyway.

The Old Man was no model parent, but I must credit him with effectively cautioning me against certain men without frightening me. Even before I fully understood just what sexual abuse was, I knew that it happened to kids who were lured by men who often projected kindness and warmth. The message was that most people mean no harm at all, but a few characters do, and not to be fooled by a smile and a friendly chat. I do believe it left me less likely to be victimized.

LizzieMaine · Jan 21, 2018

New England seems to have more than its fair share of this kind of stuff. Maybe it's the inbred, twisted Puritanism, I don't know, but it happens, and you haven't been able to pick up a paper here in the last fifty years without reading about it. A case that disturbed me deeply, nearly as much as the church stuff, involved the Boston Red Sox, and a long-standing coverup of a sexual abuse scandal involving the longtime clubhouse manager.

This particular individual, Donald Fitzpatrick, had been involved with the ballclub since the 1940s as a batboy, a gofer, a clubhouse assistant, an equipment manager, and finally the clubhouse manager. Every Sox fan knew who he was -- he was always featured in the team yearbook, and you'd always see him sitting on the dugout steps during games, and you'd always read quotes from him in sports columns and great stories from him about Ted and Yaz.

And for several decades, he was molesting young African-American boys he brought in as assistants, with promises of gifts of baseball equipment and a chance to meet the players. This molestation went on at the Sox spring training camp in Florida, and *in the Fenway Park clubhouse itself, during games* with uncounted boys involved until one of "Fitzy's" former victims stood up with a sign during a Sox game in Anaheim declaring "DONALD FITZPATRICK MOLESTED ME." Fitzpatrick was suspended and dismissed, but then the real slime started to come out: it turns out that several Sox players had reported Fitzpatrick's acts as far back as 1971, and nothing was done about him. He was a personal favorite of the ballclub's president, Tom Yawkey, and after Yawkey died his widow continued to shield Fitzpatrick, as did the foundation that took over the team after her death until the situation became untenable with the public exposure. Fitzpatrick was finally prosecuted, but never served a day in prison.

This was a brutal story for anyone to read, especially those of us who grew up with the Sox in our blood. It put me off the team for quite a while after the story came out, and it wasn't until the franchise was sold to the curren owners that I could follow them again without the horror of that story sticking my mind. And it still bothers me to think of the players who knew what was going on -- and *didn't* say anything.

tonyb · Jan 21, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
.,, And it still bothers me to think of the players who knew what was going on -- and *didn't* say anything.

Never underestimate the ability of people to blind themselves to what's right in front of their eyes. Many a now-grown woman can tell of being molested as a girl by Mom's husband (maybe the kid's father, maybe not) or boyfriend or brother or some other man whom she couldn't bring herself to believe would do such a thing, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Ticklishchap · Jan 21, 2018

GHT said:
Back in the day when I played Rugby, when it was three points for a try, we all sported a popular car sticker that read:
Give Blood. Play Rugby.

Yes, I remember those stickers - I think they were still around in the 70s/early 80s. Nice memory.

Ticklishchap · Jan 21, 2018

tonyb said:
Never underestimate the ability of people to blind themselves to what's right in front of their eyes. Many a now-grown woman can tell of being molested as a girl by Mom's husband (maybe the kid's father, maybe not) or boyfriend or brother or some other man whom she couldn't bring herself to believe would do such a thing, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

To introduce some balance into this discussion, in the UK (I don't know whether it's the same in the US or reflects a cultural difference) most physical abuse of children is committed by women, as are most child murders. Most elder abuse is also committed by females. Then, in Ireland, there were the laundries where young women/girls were sent to perform slave labour, usually because they had become pregnant outside wedlock. These were run by Catholic nuns and the inmates were physically, emotionally and sexually abused - this continued until the 1990s. 'Women religious' (so-called) were deeply involved in the kidnapping of Australian Aboriginal children and the residential schools for First Nations children in Canada, both of which involved physical and sexual abuse along with religious brainwashing. In Scotland, a children's home run by nuns was found to have a garden full of unmarked graves because the children (both boys and girls) had been starved as well as beaten. ... The list goes on but child abuse and elder abuse are certainly 'equal opportunity' phenomena, indeed 'affirmative action' because in the UK at any rate the majority of cases involve women as perpetrators rather than men.

ChiTownScion · Jan 21, 2018

tonyb said:
Wow.

Can't say I've ever gotten that close to an active pedophiliac abuser, not to my knowledge anyway.

The Old Man was no model parent, but I must credit him with effectively cautioning me against certain men without frightening me. Even before I fully understood just what sexual abuse was, I knew that it happened to kids who were lured by men who often projected kindness and warmth. The message was that most people mean no harm at all, but a few characters do, and not to be fooled by a smile and a friendly chat. I do believe it left me less likely to be victimized.

I actually came out with a failing grade in Latin at mid- term, and that had me transferred to a remedial Latin class. An old priest well into his 80's who repeated the basics of declensions and conjugations over, and over, and over again.. until even the thickest headed could grasp it. My nickname for him was Grandpa Snazzy, but he really was a sweet and harmless old man. Eight of us in that remedial class, and six ended up becoming attorneys. Raised my grade from failing to low 90's (roughly, an A-) and helped me stay in school. Flunking Latin turned out to be a good thing in the long run.

One of the kids in that remedial class was the molestation victim who received the settlement which I mentioned, and another grew up to be one of the partners of the law firm which handled his civil lawsuit against the Jesuits. Maybe there's a book, and perhaps a movie, in that story somewhere. (If the latter, I want Nicholson to play me in my 60's.)

Had any priest invited me to spend the night at the Jesuit residence, I truly believe that my dad would have been smart enough to smell a rat, even if his stated objective was to "counsel" me. This particular priest went on to be the confessor of Mother Teresa of Calcutta: for that, and a whole lot of other reasons, I never bought into the "living saint" crap that was pitched in the media about her. Donald McGuire had the perfect Man of God/ Classics Scholar M.O. to pitch to parents in order to get parents to hand their sons over to him on a silver platter, and I have to wonder, in retrospect, how any "living saint" could be so blind to pure evil that existed in such close proximity.

HanauMan · Jan 21, 2018

Something to be said about coming from a secular family and going to secular schools.

LizzieMaine · Jan 21, 2018

We had our share of female teachers who were physically rough with kids -- not in a sexual way, but nevertheless violent. My fifth-grade teacher had the habit of locking uncooperative children in a closet if they didn't fall in line -- but this was in a district where kids were getting their heads slammed thru walls or being thrown down stairs by some of the male teachers, so by comparision she came off as rather mild.

In the years I was a reporter, in the 80s and 90s, most of the sex cases involving minors came from men -- including a prominent artist whose work everyone here would recognize even if they didn't know his name -- but most of the cases of neglect involved women, usually with drugs as a contributing factor. It was just another day at the office to cover the story of some naked three year old found wandering in the rain on a dirt road while his or her mother lay sprawled on a couch smoking pot. Non-sexual physical violence against children I'd say probably ran about fifty-fifty betwen men and women.

tonyb · Jan 21, 2018

Ticklishchap said:
To introduce some balance into this discussion, in the UK (I don't know whether it's the same in the US or reflects a cultural difference) most physical abuse of children is committed by women, as are most child murders. Most elder abuse is also committed by females. Then, in Ireland, there were the laundries where young women/girls were sent to perform slave labour, usually because they had become pregnant outside wedlock. These were run by Catholic nuns and the inmates were physically, emotionally and sexually abused - this continued until the 1990s. 'Women religious' (so-called) were deeply involved in the kidnapping of Australian Aboriginal children and the residential schools for First Nations children in Canada, both of which involved physical and sexual abuse along with religious brainwashing. In Scotland, a children's home run by nuns was found to have a garden full of unmarked graves because the children (both boys and girls) had been starved as well as beaten. ... The list goes on but child abuse and elder abuse are certainly 'equal opportunity' phenomena, indeed 'affirmative action' because in the UK at any rate the majority of cases involve women as perpetrators rather than men.

I attended public schools through my high school years, but a large share of my formal post-secondary education was imparted (such as it was) at a Jesuit university. I befriended one priest on faculty there, had nothing but disdain for another (the feeling was mutual), and was mostly indifferent to the remainder.

Prior to my time at that school I generally dismissed accounts of "man haters," figuring they were mostly the projections of misogynistic men. But then I became acquainted with a couple of "women religious."

So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

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sheeplady

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tonyb

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LizzieMaine

tonyb

Ticklishchap

One Too Many

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Call Me a Cab

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Practically Family

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