The Real Reason Malls Are Closing

HanauMan · Jan 25, 2018

We have a mall right in the middle of town and next to the train station. It seems to be doing well and is always busy. There are some big department stores, a bookstore covering two floors, small businesses selling things like chocolate, clothing stores catering for kids / teens up to older folk. Downstairs has coffee places, a KFC and such like though there are no restaurants. There is a supermarket where I do most of my shopping. There is even a store that sells nothing but American cereals and candies! Wish it sold Dinty Moore beef stew or Chef Boyardee beefaroni or Hormel corned beef hash instead! The mall has a big car parking garage. It hasn't, as far as I can see, harmed the small shops in town either. There is a larger 'retail park' further out of town that has bigger stores and cinemas and that too seems to be busy.

There is a big debate going on here regarding deliveries. Many delivery companies either charge extra to deliver parcels up here or don't even attempt to do so. If you order things online on many English websites they will state that they won't deliver to the Highlands and Islands. This has upset the politicians up here as Scottish firms will deliver to England. Most English folk, and retailers too, it seems, think that Inverness is reached via a dirt track over the mountains when in fact it has a highway, harbor, airport and train station!

Edward · Jan 25, 2018

OldStrummer said:
On the other hand, two weeks ago I was in California and visited an actual hat shop located in an actual downtown setting and bought a hat I tried on that fitted me perfectly. It wasn't my plan to do so, but the experience of actually having a selection from which to try (as well as the atmosphere of the shop) did the trick. Vive la Specialty Shop!

Some things you just can't beat getting to try before you buy. Clothes especially, though I often have to resort to mail order to get what I want there. The web has certainly been a double-edged sword: it has seen a lot of specialist shops go under and go online only but then on the other hand a lot of specialist shops survive and even thrive online when they can't in the bricks and mortar world.

HanauMan said:
There is a big debate going on here regarding deliveries. Many delivery companies either charge extra to deliver parcels up here or don't even attempt to do so. If you order things online on many English websites they will state that they won't deliver to the Highlands and Islands. This has upset the politicians up here as Scottish firms will deliver to England.

That is, ultimately, the end result of the privatisation of former natural monopolies. Same thing happened with the telephone industry. The legacy providers are still obliged to offer a 'highlands and islands service' (as it's officially known), but to let the new players get a foothold faster, they were allowed to cherry-pick where they offer services and to vary the price much more (Royal Mail is obliged to charge a flat fee and not allowed to cut prices in line with the competition or to limit itself to profitable areas). Personally, I don't think they thought it through very well when they set that up. It has had a disproportionate ill-effect on Scotland and the other Celtic countries, but by sheer weight of numbers the UK will always be dominated by England, and most English decision makers don't really even think of Scotland as much more than an adjunct part of northern England.

seres · Jan 25, 2018

HanauMan said:
....Many delivery companies either charge extra to deliver parcels up here or don't even attempt to do so. If you order things online on many English websites they will state that they won't deliver to the Highlands and Islands. This has upset the politicians up here as Scottish firms will deliver to England. Most English folk, and retailers too, it seems, think that Inverness is reached via a dirt track over the mountains when in fact it has a highway, harbor, airport and train station!

I feel your pain... The US Postal Service delivers to Alaska at about the same price as the "lower 48", yet many vendors insist on charging more. And "free shipping" almost never applies to Alaska. Even Amazon has more and more very small items items that will not ship to Alaska.

Bugguy · Feb 1, 2018

belfastboy said:
I have the misfortune as a contractor to work in malls from time to time. Each time it reminds me why I don't shop in one......if you are not a mom or a 15 year old girl there is nothing there to buy. Specialty stores have given way to a generic blandness of trashy "fashion " for teenage girls. One exception is my local mall that houses the best shoe repair guy around these parts. Luckily he is younger than I so should be good for the duration.

I couldn't agree more. Back when, I could wander and window shop while my wife made the rounds. Ultimately, she'd find me in Walden Books or one of the others paging through magazines. Today I'd rather sit in the car with an audiobook. I have zero interest in anything left in malls unless, perhaps they have a BassPro store, etc.

As for people watching, in today's environment I'd be labeled a dirty old man if I spent too much time watching the "mom or 15 year old girl". Its safer to sit in the car and look like a mugger.

Bugguy · Feb 1, 2018

ChrisB said:
In my town, they have adopted the slogan "Hometown Friendly", and have banners on every lamp post bearing it. It seems to me that if you really were hometown friendly you wouldn't have to advertise the fact.

You got me thinking about what has impressed me about Nashville. The community is incredibly supportive of it's independent retailers, artisans and crafts people. There are neighborhood retail sidewalk sales - not festivals - that are quite well attended. The citywide Small Business Saturdays are proudly supported - I hear the 20-30 somethings discussing them in advance (including my daughter). Custom or bespoke clothing or other products that require several weeks or more for preparation are no big deal. Even with the trend toward Amazon's next-day-delivery, waiting for a locally produced product is not a problem. And while we have malls and the usual chain stores, clusters of small boutique-style stores still do very well.

I guess I've romanticized it by thinking this is a cultural bias that ties to how the community identifies with its country music roots. I want to identify with this independent spirit, so Nashville is a good fit for me. (Spoken as a born and raised Chicago boy)

earl · Feb 11, 2018

On a related note, the surge in online shopping is killing small towns. Many local businesses cannot compete with online prices, availability of products and convenience. But it galls me that its citizenry don't seem to understand or care that by giving their money to online shops as opposed to buying in local stores, they are killing off their local economies. What we lose in the process is community. What sort of community are we left with without much in the way of local shops? We end up with only grocery stores, WalMart and restaurants.

redlinerobert · Feb 11, 2018

A movement away from the Costco's, Walmarts, and Amazon is what this country needs. Going back to small community stores, specialty shops and the like would be like a dream come true. Unfortunately the younger generation doesn't understand this method of operation.

I've said it before, (not here) but as a society, we have peaked some time ago.

sheeplady · Feb 11, 2018

I see we're playing the sweeping generalizations game about generations. I'll play.

Too bad the WWII generation didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of strip malls and chains. The WWII generation killed our downtowns.

Too bad the boomers didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of enclosed malls. The boomers killed our downtowns.

Too bad the gen xers didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of big box store. The gen xers killed our downtowns.

Too bad the Millenials didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the online markey. The Millenials killed our downtowns.

Now we have a script so we can blame any generation we feel like for all the ills of our society.

HanauMan · Feb 11, 2018

Just society changing.

Back in the olden days everyone walked, so stores were close together in town.

The rise of motorcars meant folk could travel, and wanted to travel. Out of town malls came of age.

Now everyone has a computer, so a new way to shop. (Plus folk are fatter now, too lazy to get off the couch to drive and anyhow, check the price for gas these days, too expensive to drive to a mall!

)

tonyb · Feb 11, 2018

Downtowns and close-in districts in many major cities are doing well. People want to live there and work there and play there.

Old commercial structures get put to new uses that actually generate revenue! Old houses get some serious (and often overdue) scratch put into them by new owners looking to make their lives there.

Friends and relatives of historically modest means have become millionaires (on paper) by holding onto real properties they bought decades and decades ago.

This is of small comfort to those watching the deaths of their old hometowns' commercial districts. Smaller places off the beaten path without any real tourist draws face their own challenges.

seres · Feb 11, 2018

HanauMan said:
Just society changing.

Back in the olden days everyone walked, so stores were close together in town.

The rise of motorcars meant folk could travel, and wanted to travel. Out of town malls came of age.

Now everyone has a computer, so a new way to shop. (Plus folk are fatter now, too lazy to get off the couch to drive and anyhow, check the price for gas these days, too expensive to drive to a mall! )

Very true. And with stagnating wages and increasing prices, EVERYONE is shopping price.

LizzieMaine · Feb 11, 2018

sheeplady said:
I see we're playing the sweeping generalizations game about generations. I'll play.

Too bad the WWII generation didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of strip malls and chains. The WWII generation killed our downtowns.

Too bad the boomers didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of enclosed malls. The boomers killed our downtowns.

Too bad the gen xers didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of big box store. The gen xers killed our downtowns.

Too bad the Millenials didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the online markey. The Millenials killed our downtowns.

Now we have a script so we can blame any generation we feel like for all the ills of our society.

And you can go back even further. The adults of the 1910s fueled the boom for downtown chain stores that drove thousands of local grocers and mercantiles and emporia out of business. The A&P, Woolworth's, Kresge's, Grant's, and various other regional and national chain operations came out of that period. The -- ah -- "Greatest Generation" grew up never having known a world without chain/franchise shopping. And of course, Sears and Roebuck and Montgomery Ward were the Amazon of their time, and both had conditioned millions of rural Americans to mail order shopping even before the turn of the century.

Fast food chains came out of this period as well. The urban quick-lunch chains -- Thompson's, Baltimore Dairy Lunch, Waldorf Lunch, etc. -- grew explosively over the first two decades of the 20th Century, conditioning the American palate to the sort of bland, mushy, homogenous, mass-produced foods that would later lead directly to the highway-oriented fast food franchises that exploded during the post-WWII suburban push.

OldStrummer · Feb 12, 2018

I work part-time in a specialty store (running). Business is good, despite the existence of online merchants and big box stores. The key is the word "specialty." Where else can one get their gait analyzed, their running form evaluated, and be fitted properly in shoes that are right for both?

As I see it, most malls these days have stores that are more alike than dissimilar. The logo over the entrance may be different, but the merchandise is very cookie-cutter. These stores are staffed by minimum wage clerks ("associates") who know very little about their goods, how and where they are made, what benefits they provide, how to care for them, and what to do if something goes wrong. THIS, more than anything else is, in my opinion, the reason malls are changing (I won't say "closing," because I think they are "moving" more than not).

Quality specialty stores are and always have been, the backbone of a retail economy.

triple-d · Feb 12, 2018

Ya...3-4 years ago stores were leaving our local Mall. Now it's full with different stores, and they built a new "Outdoor Mall 3 miles north of use. The Outdoor Mall is 4 square blocks and growing. Our downtown area has been in a refurbishing phase for two years, and still working on it. Brew house/restaurants, specialty stores, new retro street lighting, new side walks, farmers market, and curb parking. Being set up as a place for the community to gather.......I think it's the normal evolution of things, not the death of life as we know it. In some ways the downtown area has gone back in time....lol

KY Gentleman · Feb 12, 2018

I agree with the comment that malls are basically the same collection of stores, concentrated together around a food court of the same fast food outlets. The parking lots of most malls in towns I’ve lived in are usually not the safest places either.

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory. – unknown

belfastboy · Feb 12, 2018

sheeplady said:
I see we're playing the sweeping generalizations game about generations. I'll play.

Too bad the WWII generation didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of strip malls and chains. The WWII generation killed our downtowns.

Too bad the boomers didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of enclosed malls. The boomers killed our downtowns.

Too bad the gen xers didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the creation of big box store. The gen xers killed our downtowns.

Too bad the Millenials didn't value downtowns and speciality shops. They drove the online markey. The Millenials killed our downtowns.

Now we have a script so we can blame any generation we feel like for all the ills of our society.

I love small town America and every year spend 3 months travelling the West in search of good ones. But I often think that the notion of quaint downtowns with general stores staffed by avuncular older men is a big city yuppie affectation. Folks in small towns need and want selection and price just like us big city folk. And I have discovered that not all small towns are dying. The ones with creative leadership are engaged in reinventing their towns the ones without that leadership will fall by the wayside. Tis evolution I guess.

Fading Fast · Feb 12, 2018

As a variation on the theme, it's possible that supermarkets will have to close in NYC to be replaced by speciality grocers in fresh products.

Online stores are crushing NYC grocers on price. For example, you can buy a box of cereal for between $5-6 in the store and $2-3 online (and it will show up in one to two days). We try to support local stores like bookstores, pharmacy, etc., but the cost savings on "dry goods" online is too good to pass up. Everyone's budget is stretched, so few will pass up the savings (in my apartment building, everyone is ordering their "staples" online).

My girlfriend and I budget carefully and know what we spend our money on and estimate that we reduce our gross food and basic goods (soap, cleaner, etc.) budget by 40-50% by buying online. Which, as an aside, just gets gobble up by our ever increasing Obamacare premium costs, deductibles and copays.

There are three supermarkets within reasonable walking distance of our apartment. Over the last five years, they have gone from being always busy and crowded to looking like ghost towns sometimes to modestly crowded occasionally. Given NYC real estate prices, these stores, at least not all of them, will not survive. The fresh produce, meat, fish, dairy areas are the only ones that are active - not as easy to buy that stuff online (although some are trying with fresh delivery, but the price saves are modest versus the dry goods and we - and many others - are willing to support out local stores when the price savings are only modest.)

Hence, my guess, going forward, NYC will see more supermarkets close (a few have already) and more niche grocers open (some have already). Thus, in an odd way, the internet will have pushed NYC back toward a pre-supermarket-era way of shopping for some grocery items.

sheeplady · Feb 12, 2018

belfastboy said:
I love small town America and every year spend 3 months travelling the West in search of good ones. But I often think that the notion of quaint downtowns with general stores staffed by avuncular older men is a big city yuppie affectation. Folks in small towns need and want selection and price just like us big city folk. And I have discovered that not all small towns are dying. The ones with creative leadership are engaged in reinventing their towns the ones without that leadership will fall by the wayside. Tis evolution I guess.

So much of this focuses on the larger regional economy. I moved from a rust-belt town to Virginia, which meant moving from a poor economy to a growing one.

The last place I lived was barely keeping afloat. Taxes went mostly to road maintenance- too few residents, too many roads. Here taxes go to things like building parks. Jobs here are relatively plentiful, with a good mix of industry, manufacturing, education, and professionals. The only advantage to the last place I lived was cheap housing stock- but it was also run down stock and jobs paid less. And when you fix the holes in your roof or update something that needs it in a poor economy, the return on your money is modest, if at all. It's cheaper and more financially wise to buy a trailer and park it in your yard than fix up a run down house where I used to live.

There's also a difference in attitude. It's hard not to get depressed when the news has a story about a new employer coming to town that will have 80 jobs, and over 800 people are lined up outside to put their resume in before the doors open...

Edward · Feb 12, 2018

Interestingly, in the part of East London in which I live, two major developments are currently being built, both of which will feature significant retail space alongside more residential properties. This despite the fact that we seem to have most everything we could need round here, as well as there being a fairly high number of empty retail units already. Maybe some of these will be the sort of small speciality stores we currently have to leave the area for. I miss there being a local guitar shop. A stereo equipment place would be nice too. A nice showroom where I could buy a new turntable....

Fading Fast · Feb 12, 2018

sheeplady said:
...There's also a difference in attitude. It's hard not to get depressed when the news has a story about a new employer coming to town that will have 80 jobs, and over 800 people are lined up outside to put their resume in before the doors open...

This is so true. I've moved states three times for better (to be honest, two of those times was to get out of being unemployed) job opportunities (over three decades). The change from a region that is shrinking / struggling to one that is growing with fresh opportunities is incredible. The shrinking one brought you down as, understandably, everyone is complaining, frustrated, depressed, etc. Whereas, the growing one had a feeling / a vibe / an attitude of optimism and enthusiasm.

I completely understand and respect that not everyone can simply relocate for a job - it was very hard for me for various reason (home, relationships, prior commitments) - but for me, it was worth it both because I needed the work (that was the number one reason), but the intangible benefit of being in an upbeat community can't be emphasized enough.

With our world changing faster, it seems communities will shrink and grow faster which will force us to be a more mobile country. That is not fun as, as noted, it is incredibly disruptive to one's life to move (and one might simply like where they live and not want to move - I didn't want to), but I'll do it again if I have to as living in a depressed area starts to change your outlook on life. To be sure, if you think you can be part of the solution to a shrinking area - go for it - I'm just not that kind of person. I plug not the economy, I don't change it.

The Real Reason Malls Are Closing

HanauMan

Practically Family

Edward

seres

A-List Customer

Bugguy

Practically Family

Bugguy

Practically Family

earl

A-List Customer

redlinerobert

One of the Regulars

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up

HanauMan

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tonyb

seres

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LizzieMaine

OldStrummer

Practically Family

triple-d

A-List Customer

KY Gentleman

One Too Many

belfastboy

Fading Fast

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up

Edward

Fading Fast

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