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I'm pretty sure that almost any statue or memorial erected before 1970 is on the hit list for removal now.
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You know you are getting old when:
- Thread starter GHT
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2jakes
I'll Lock Up
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2jakes
I'll Lock Up
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Haversack
One Too Many
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Well, the town of Arcata up on the north coast of California is taking down the statue of President McKinley from the center of the town square because he was an American imperialist. And in San Francisco there are moves afoot to rename Phelan Avenue. Not because of anything the person it was named after, (James Phelan, a '49er who made a fortune in wheat and real estate), did wrong, but because his son, (also James Phelan), was a US Senator and City Mayor who ran on a 'Keep California White' platform.
LizzieMaine
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I'm not shocked or appalled that a statue of McKinely is being taken down. I'm shocked that anybody ever bothered to put one up in his honor in the first place, unless it's attached by a string to a larger one of Mark Hanna.
In Boston, "Yawkey Way" will soon be returned to its former name of "Jersey Street" out of the desire of the Red Sox to distance themselves from the questionable racial legacy of the Yawkey era of ownership. As a lifelong Red Sox fan, I couldn't possibly care less if they change the name. I always called it "Jersey Street" anyway.
What is happening now is not some horrific "OMGthey're destroying history!!!?!!!OMG!" It's simply a society confronting and coming to terms with the sins of its past, which all societies must do in order to evolve and survive. A society that remains chained to the superficial symbols of its past is a society that's on the road to oblivion. Just ask the British Empire.
The South lost the Civil War, a hundred and fifty years ago. Most of those statues were put up fifty years after that loss, to perpetuate certain cultural myths that have long since been discredited. A society that's finally grown up enough to toss aside the mythology and symbols of the so-called "Lost Cause" is a society that deserves to be commended.
In Boston, "Yawkey Way" will soon be returned to its former name of "Jersey Street" out of the desire of the Red Sox to distance themselves from the questionable racial legacy of the Yawkey era of ownership. As a lifelong Red Sox fan, I couldn't possibly care less if they change the name. I always called it "Jersey Street" anyway.
What is happening now is not some horrific "OMGthey're destroying history!!!?!!!OMG!" It's simply a society confronting and coming to terms with the sins of its past, which all societies must do in order to evolve and survive. A society that remains chained to the superficial symbols of its past is a society that's on the road to oblivion. Just ask the British Empire.
The South lost the Civil War, a hundred and fifty years ago. Most of those statues were put up fifty years after that loss, to perpetuate certain cultural myths that have long since been discredited. A society that's finally grown up enough to toss aside the mythology and symbols of the so-called "Lost Cause" is a society that deserves to be commended.
Ain't that the truth. I'm sure more people remember that there was a mountain formerly named McKinley (now named back to Denali) than there are people that remember there was once a president named McKinley. He's one of those skip-over presidents who kids learn about more because he existed than because of anything he'd done. His mountain had a greater legacy than his presidency.
vitanola
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Not at all. The memorials to the patriotic supporters of our great, indissoluable Union are in no danger at all.
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In recent years the waterways of Northwest Washington state and Southwest British Columbia have been increasingly referred to as the Salish Sea.
The name doesn't supplant those of the various waterways it encompasses. Puget Sound is still Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan de Fuca is still the Strait of Juan de Fuca, etc. But the name, a nod to the Coast Salish peoples who inhabited the area before the palefaces showed up, is a recognition of that cultural history and the common ecosystem.
The name doesn't supplant those of the various waterways it encompasses. Puget Sound is still Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan de Fuca is still the Strait of Juan de Fuca, etc. But the name, a nod to the Coast Salish peoples who inhabited the area before the palefaces showed up, is a recognition of that cultural history and the common ecosystem.
GHT
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OMG, you've been keeping up with the furore over Cecil Rhodes and the Oxford students at Oriel College, the college that Rhodes had attended, and the students demand to have Rhodes statue removed.
It's a very long story, Rhodes gave his name to Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, he was the absolute imperialist, loathed more than loved. Just google Cecil Rhodes, or ask Lizzie.
I wouldn't mind betting that more people still call Uluru, Ayers Rock, named after Sir Henry Ayres, Chief Secretary of South Australia.
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Inkstainedwretch
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Here in New Mexico we have a continuing controversy over a statue of Spanish Conquistador/governor Juan de Onate (you'll have to picture the Tilde over the N, I don't know how to do it). Since he massacred some Acoma Indians, the Indians here protest the statue. The Latinos want to keep it. Anglos are mixed.
ChiTownScion
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My own wish is that half the effort that is thrown into preserving statues erected out of a misdirected "Lost Cause" sentimentality was directed toward battlefield preservation. I love to walk the battlefields which, considering the horror that they witnessed, are places of peaceful reflection and inspiration for many. I doubt that there is a cathedral in all of Europe that accords me the spiritual edification that sitting atop Little Round Top at sunset accords.
Edward
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Being from Northern Ireland originally, I find it cute when other people think they have 'difficult divisions' over tribal mythology passed off as history by some and rejected by others.... 
THat, of course, is a whole nother can of worms. Let's all tread carefully here....
In all likelihood it could well sell now, subject to a few subtle tweaks for modern sensibilities. I'm sure I remember reading Wolverine originally fought on the Confederate side, but by the time his origin story hit Hollywood, he was a Union trooper. I find it interesting how these things get tweaked over time (history, after all, being founded on the mythology of the dominant group at any one point), but ultimately ephemeral.
IN any case, I'd rather live in a world where people were maybe occasionally overly cautious about causing offence than one where people affect the "offence is taken, not given" mentality as a simple excuse to being needlessly provocative - or often just downright rude.
The Eastwood film, Flags of our Fathers which was about the creation of this image was fascinating.
With all these things, I often reflect on comments made by Eamon de Valera. Dev, as he was commonly known, was one of the sixteen leaders of the Easter Rising in Dublin, 1916, now seen as the founding point of the modern Irish Republic, and, for better or worse (for every Eamon born in Ireland after 1916, there's another individual who would happily queue to spit on his grave) a big influence on the shape of the state thereafter, with multiple terms in power as Taioseach and President, and the driving force behind the Irish Constitution of 1937. When said Republic was finally officially recognised as a fully sovereign state by the British government from Easter Monday 1949 under the Ireland Act 1948, de Valera was not in power. Those who were immediately set about tearing down the statue of Queen Victoria that stood in front of the Dail Eireann (Irish parliament) and other emblems of the British Empire. De Valera objected to this, insisting that these were historical emblems not to be removed but rather to be preserved as a marker of the state's history, from when it had come. I always found that an interesting position, and one which comes to mind at various times. Not tat it;'s necessarily always the right approach, but nonetheless often worth pondering.
Certainly something which often seemed to get lost in the debate is that unlike the British Empire statues in Dublin, erected at a time when that was current - and, in truth, prior to the mass awakening within that part of Ireland of the modern notion of nationalism and any great desire on the part of the masses to be independent - there's a different side entirely going on when a statue is erected not at the time, but much later on to symbolise and support certain attitudes and values which are ascribed to what the statue depicts. I'm reminded of all the Coniston monuments in Bristol, England. The Coniston family did a lot for Bristol as philanthropists, and that is what was being celebrated by all the various monuments. The difficult element for us nowadays, of course, is that the Conistons made all their money from the slave trade. I think most people can cope with the idea that what is being celerated in those monuments is not the slavery, but had they been erected much later on as, say, a mourning of the passing of the slave trade, there would be a strong move to remove and rename now, as appropriate.
It's superficially similar controversy, though of course the statue of Rhodes was, as I recall, put up to mark his financial support for education as distinct from his behaviour in Africa, so there is some level of difference there. The Oxford controversy was part of a wider 'Rhodes Must Fall' protest movement begun in South Africa at the University of Capetown, where the presence of such a statue had a certain, very potent symbolism.
I think most of us over a certain age probably grew up calling it 'Ayers Rock', though yes, the original name of Uluru is slowly being restored. Australian officialdom refers to it as 'Uluru/Ayers Rock', in a manner which rather reminds me of Northern Ireland Railways' diplomatic use of the name "Derry-Londonderry" in all official announcements and published material.
Believe me, the topic has been more than just remarked upon.
A statue of a soldier from the Cival War that's been at a public park for 100 years was removed by the city last year.
THat, of course, is a whole nother can of worms. Let's all tread carefully here....
When I was a kid my favorite comic story (once I got past the Carl Barks Duck stories) was The Haunted Tank (I think the comic was G.I. Combat) which had a Stuart tank crewed by Lt. Jeb Stuart and three other guys, and protected by the ghost of the Confederate Army General Stuart. The Lt. was a southern boy and the Confederate flag was flown from the tank radio antenna.
I guess that comic would be deemed totally un-PC nowadays.
In all likelihood it could well sell now, subject to a few subtle tweaks for modern sensibilities. I'm sure I remember reading Wolverine originally fought on the Confederate side, but by the time his origin story hit Hollywood, he was a Union trooper. I find it interesting how these things get tweaked over time (history, after all, being founded on the mythology of the dominant group at any one point), but ultimately ephemeral.
IN any case, I'd rather live in a world where people were maybe occasionally overly cautious about causing offence than one where people affect the "offence is taken, not given" mentality as a simple excuse to being needlessly provocative - or often just downright rude.
The Eastwood film, Flags of our Fathers which was about the creation of this image was fascinating.
With all these things, I often reflect on comments made by Eamon de Valera. Dev, as he was commonly known, was one of the sixteen leaders of the Easter Rising in Dublin, 1916, now seen as the founding point of the modern Irish Republic, and, for better or worse (for every Eamon born in Ireland after 1916, there's another individual who would happily queue to spit on his grave) a big influence on the shape of the state thereafter, with multiple terms in power as Taioseach and President, and the driving force behind the Irish Constitution of 1937. When said Republic was finally officially recognised as a fully sovereign state by the British government from Easter Monday 1949 under the Ireland Act 1948, de Valera was not in power. Those who were immediately set about tearing down the statue of Queen Victoria that stood in front of the Dail Eireann (Irish parliament) and other emblems of the British Empire. De Valera objected to this, insisting that these were historical emblems not to be removed but rather to be preserved as a marker of the state's history, from when it had come. I always found that an interesting position, and one which comes to mind at various times. Not tat it;'s necessarily always the right approach, but nonetheless often worth pondering.
Certainly something which often seemed to get lost in the debate is that unlike the British Empire statues in Dublin, erected at a time when that was current - and, in truth, prior to the mass awakening within that part of Ireland of the modern notion of nationalism and any great desire on the part of the masses to be independent - there's a different side entirely going on when a statue is erected not at the time, but much later on to symbolise and support certain attitudes and values which are ascribed to what the statue depicts. I'm reminded of all the Coniston monuments in Bristol, England. The Coniston family did a lot for Bristol as philanthropists, and that is what was being celebrated by all the various monuments. The difficult element for us nowadays, of course, is that the Conistons made all their money from the slave trade. I think most people can cope with the idea that what is being celerated in those monuments is not the slavery, but had they been erected much later on as, say, a mourning of the passing of the slave trade, there would be a strong move to remove and rename now, as appropriate.
It's superficially similar controversy, though of course the statue of Rhodes was, as I recall, put up to mark his financial support for education as distinct from his behaviour in Africa, so there is some level of difference there. The Oxford controversy was part of a wider 'Rhodes Must Fall' protest movement begun in South Africa at the University of Capetown, where the presence of such a statue had a certain, very potent symbolism.
I think most of us over a certain age probably grew up calling it 'Ayers Rock', though yes, the original name of Uluru is slowly being restored. Australian officialdom refers to it as 'Uluru/Ayers Rock', in a manner which rather reminds me of Northern Ireland Railways' diplomatic use of the name "Derry-Londonderry" in all official announcements and published material.
2jakes
I'll Lock Up
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“air-conditioning” was a selling point at one time in theaters and hotels.
I think the name of the hotel might be somewhat more remarked upon nowadays, even if Lee was a complex enough character as to defy both those who would attack and those who would lionise him.
I was only making reference to hotels and theaters using “air-conditioning” as a selling point.
I was answering your reply regarding the name of the hotel “Robt. E. Lee” which you brought up and quoted me.
l agree---"we should all tread carefully here...”
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HanauMan
Practically Family
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Trust me, as someone who has travelled in the South and the Southwest, air conditioning is, for me, a BIG selling point!
HanauMan
Practically Family
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And not forgetting, a WORKING ice machine down the corridor.
GHT
I'll Lock Up
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We like to travel around when we are in the US and to that end we stay in the budget motels. Budget? Well it can be a lucky dip, the photos in the brochure and on the web page look ok but............Mostly they are good to OK, occasionally less so. There is one thing though that they all have in common, an ice making machine. Can't remember ever using it, but as some of the family run and proprietary owned franchisees have told me, American visitors always ask if the ice machine is working. Am I missing something here?
2jakes
I'll Lock Up
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Ice machines are very common and available in motels and hotels.
Can't remember ever asking if the ice machine was working or not or have
had issues with defective ice machines.
Perhaps the American visitors you mentioned must frequent low budget
motels that have issues with ice machines!
I’m aware that the majority in England prefer hot tea whereas in
the US most prefer ice tea.
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HanauMan
Practically Family
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Ice machines are a must on hot and humid nights in the South. You can't sleep because of the heat so you go out and get ice for your drink and a bucket full to pour over yourself to cool down! While you're lying in the bed! The cool dampness helps you sleep and by morning the sheets are dry again!
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