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I couldn't find enough consistency in the pictures of the labels I have to confirm or deny your hypothesis. My gut feeling is that it is correct. I did find another interesting label that I had forgotten about. Tomorrow I will try to figure out how to post a picture using photo bucket and put it on the board.
Here is the tag I mentioned. Only one I have ever seen. The information with the jacket said a 1968 jacket, but I don't think so. It may have been left over from an earlier time, lost for a number of years, and then issued in 1968, but I just don't know.
To the poster (I believe it was Dakota) who asked why his PM feature wasn't activated, you must have 15 posts before this feature is active. Found that out by reading the FAQ section while getting directions for posting pictures.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...ontthinkso.jpg
From looking at the label, it has a date of 53 on it.
Here's another wartime label:
http://image.i-soldit.com/images/016...4042_08_06.jpg
This came off of a 8 button showing coat with a neck strap.
The date wasn't included in the contract number until 1967, as best as I can determine. Although that tag does have the numbers "53," I doubt that it has any relevance to the date. I could be wrong, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
My best guess on that particular tag is that it came after the revised "Naval Clothing Factory" tag of the mid to late 50's and before the "US NAVY' tag and only lasted a year or so. Sort of like the 1966 tag which only lasted one year (shown below).
The tag posted by Marble is one of the earliest I have seen. No telling when that was in service. Not many still around who are able to give us the answer. Thanks for the pic.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...rp766/1966.jpg
Here's a label I've never seen before. It comes off a post war (6 button showing) coat.
http://s156021008.onlinehome.us/ebaypics/10708b.jpg
It also supports my theory showing Name and Service No.
Now you are really confusing me! I thought I had seen all of the post war labels, but not so. Now that you have posted this label, it's your burden to find the year! I know what years it isn't; I just don't know what years it is.
Here are two more labels, both post war coats (6 buttons showing). My guess places both from 1965:
http://i18.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/84/78/72fb_1.JPG
http://i6.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/84/48/9bdb_1.JPG
Yes, that is a 1965 tag. That was the last year that particular tag was issued. Don't know when it was first used, however.
I have a coat with that tag that was issued to a buddy of mine in April, 1965. After he got out of the Navy in 1969, it hung in his closet for thirty six years until he gave it to me last year. Of them all, that is my favorite tag, and my favorite coat.
Take a look at this ebay auction that ended yesterday. It was for a U.S. Coast Guard pea coat that looks identical to two WWII Navy pea coats I have. It has the 10 button front, corduroy lined pockets, and the chin strap.
ebay item # 270076734843. I was the high bidder for it.
Dakota
It's WWII alright. Looks like a nice coat at a great price. I don't find them priced like that this time of the year. Must be the warm weather we all are having!
A WWII navy pea coat, identical to it, ended the day before it did and it sold for $60.00. I guess it just depends on who is watching the auctions and also like you said the warm weather may be playing a part in the low prices. I couldn't believe I got that Coast Guard pea coat for so little.
I saw that coat and considered bidding on it. (Now I'm glad I didn't, I'd have hated to make a bidding war with you Dakota) Ultimately, I decided against bidding because it looked like a 40R and I think I need a 42R.
When the coat arrives, please post a picture of the label.
I will and I'll take measurements and let you know the approximate size. I was thinking too that it was about a 40.
Here's another 'Clothing Supply Office' Tag...
http://users.adelphia.net/~ko6oy/ebay/450army1.jpg
Front view of the coat:
http://users.adelphia.net/~ko6oy/ebay/450army.jpg
Note the double stitching on the sleeve. It has corduroy pockets. I'm guessing this is a late 50s coat.
Here's another 1965 label with a different contract number:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...11460-C-62.jpg
DA-36-243-QM(CTM) 11460-C-62
When I size a peacoat for the chest measurement, I get the measurement across the chest, with the coat on a flat surface , and directly under the armpits. I double that measurement and subtract two inches (for the inside material). For instance, a coat that measures 21" across the chest would be a size 40. That's the best way I have found to get a fairly accurate indication of the chest size.
This thread caught my eye while I was scouring the internet for replacement buttons. My bridge coat seems so much different than anything described so far. I found a tag on the inside with the original owner and the date 8-12-42. The tag also identifies the manufacturer as Julius Horowitt. The coat is definitely black - blacker than any article of clothing I could find. It is also fully lined in black satin and the lining is not removable. It also has two black braided embellishments about 3 inches above the sleeve cuffs. The buttons are a challenge. They have an eagle holding an anchor with 3 cannon balls below the anchor and 13 stars surrounding the image. The back of buttons have "Vanguard Corp. New York" stamped on the back. I have been able to find similar Waterbury and Superior buttons, but no Vanguard. I rescued this coat from my sister and it is missing the 2 buttons underneath the collar. I'm not sure if they were missing when she picked it up at the thrift store or if she lost them herself. I have searched online for these particular buttons to no avail. I was hoping someone on here might have an idea.
One more quick question - This coat has several tears in the lining, but all of them appear to be along the seam where the thread has just given up. I can't seem to find another coat with the same characteristics online and am trying to determine if it is worth repairing or if I should just get a new one? This is by far the warmest coat I have ever owned. It kept me warm through a couple Minnesota winters.
I am a bit confused with your characterization of the coat as a "bridge coat." A bridge coat is longer than a peacoat and falls just below the knees. They are normally worn by officers and chiefs. Is this the type of coat you have?
A peacoat will fall just below the butt when properly fitted. On a female, it might be to mid thigh, but certainly not to the knees.
When you say "embellishments," are you describing two rows of stitching, or something more than simple stitching? If these are braids, not stitching, and if the color is truly black (see below), it could be that it is some type of ceremonial coat, and not the standard issue.*
The color you have described doesn't equate to what I know about the WWII coats. If you take your coat outside and compare it to a known black object, the coat should appear to be dark, dark blue.
I got out my bridge coat and looked at the buttons. They are identical to what you describe. I also looked at one of my peacoats (1980 model) with the pewter buttons. They are also identical to what you describe. This tells me that even though your coat is WWII, the buttons for it were still being used until recently, and I believe are still in production. They should be available on ebay every now and then. Do a general search for "buttons" and then narrow it based on what you find.
Have your coat repaired. It doesn't cost much and is simple to do. I had my WWII peacoat lining repaired, and it is like new.
Please let me know about the color and the length, so I will know what we are dealing with.
_____
*Officers' coats aren't actually "issued," but are purchased by the officer from an authorized source. Thus, the private labels in the officers' coats. For instance my dress blues are by Lautersteins in San Antonio, and my dress blue hat is by Ace Manufacturing, also in San Antonio. The labels in these items are civilian labels and not the standard military issue labels that we are so familiar with.
Where abouts was your lining damaged? How did the seamstress repair it? I have one that has what I consider to be minor damage - it has a small tear in it, thta I would like to get fixed.
Dakota
Have your coat repaired. It doesn't cost much and is simple to do. I had my WWII peacoat lining repaired, and it is like new.
_____
The lining was ripped in a couple of places, both at a seam and in the back where there was no seam, as I remember. She just stitched it up, with a machine, I believe. I looked at it when I picked it up, but haven't really looked at it since. I remember thinking that she did a great job. She also repaired the collar where there was wear. Did a good job there also. Best to get small rips repaired before they become big ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
My coat is a bridge coat. It's almost 50 inches from collar to hem and rests about mid-calf on me. I'm about 95% sure that it is black. It's been very cloudy and rainy lately so I'll look again the next time it's sunny.
The embellishments are flat braiding. I'll take a picture this weekend and post it. They blend so well that you can't really see them if you are more than 4 feet away. The one closest to the sleeve is about a half inch wide and the one about 1/8 inch above that is about 1/4 inch thick.
I did a little searching for Julius Horowitt and could only find that he was a naval and civilian tailor in the 40s.
Thanks for the info on the buttons. I did find that Vanguard still issues these buttons with shoulder marks, so I'll just keep my eye out or call them directly.
Yes, please check the color and let me know. I hope that it is very dark blue, then the pieces of the puzzle will come together. What you are describing on the sleeves may well be a rank indicator for an officer. If I remember correctly 1 1/2 stripes indicate a Lieutenant junior grade or O-2. Sounds like you have a nice bridge coat worn by a Lieutenant in WWII. A picture of the stripes would be helpful to confirm my hypothesis
More label action!
This time from an officer's coat:
http://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/85/d0/6269_12.JPG
Full image of the coat:
http://i22.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/85/d0/5f14_3.JPG
Also here's another tidbit I picked up on officer's buttons:
The buttons prior to the 1940 have the eagle looking to the right, the buttons post 1940 have the eagle looking to the left.
This is of course unconfirmed, but worth investigating.
Ooo, here's an interesting article on the early history of the Naval Uniform... http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...orm_button.htm
Unfortunately, it doesn't talk about pea coats, but I still found it a nice read.
And here's another page documenting the various changes to naval uniforms from 1797 to 1947
http://www.quarterdeck.org/uniforms/uniforms.htm
I have my Dad's peacoat that was issued to him during WW2 when he was on a destroyer during the war. My Mom had to reline it (as the original lining had completely fallen out of the jacket), and I wore it through college until I noticed the thread of the relining job was pulling out of the old wool. I decided it was time to retire the jacket, as I didn't want it to completely fall apart from wear and tear of daily use.
It's now safely stored in our cedar chest in our bedroom. I'll have to take it out and look at it soon, as it's been a while since I've seen it. In retrospect, I can honestly say it was the most comfortable coat I've ever worn, and I wore it in the harshest of Columbus, Ohio winters...and I'm still puzzled why I've never purchased a replacement.
Regards! Michaelson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelson
Yes, that coat needs to stay retired. And you should buy a replacement; there is still a lot of Ohio winter left to be had this year. When you get a chance, please post a picture of the label, and let us know the date he went in the Navy, or was issued the coat, if you can find it out.
PS Just noticed you are now in Tennessee, so there is still a lot of Tennessee winter to be had this year, as we really haven't had any yet.
To Wetmarble: The officer's coat you posted was worn by a Lieutenant, junior grade, if I remember my ranks. The star above the stripes indicate that he was on command track, as opposed to working in a staff position. That is, he would be in consideration for command of his own boat or ship as he rose in rank. A staff officer would not be on track for command of a ship, although he would be on track for shore command. I believe that is the way it goes.
The tags in the officers' coats are different as officers are responsible for buying their own uniforms. That particular jacket would be worn for standard office duty, and perhaps for shipboard duty. In the Army we would call that uniform our "greens." Obviously in the Navy the uniform isn't green, so it may be called "blues." There is a lot about the Navy uniforms I don't know.
Perhaps if KristaM comes back to this board, she could compare the stripes on the sleeves of the coat above and see how the stripes on her bridge coat compare to the posted picture.
The links you posted contain a lot of information. Haven't had a chance to look at all of it yet. Hope to get to it tomorrow. Thanks for taking the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacoat
Boy, isn't THAT the plain truth. Had some heavy frost this morning, but other than that, it's been one mild winter so far.
I don't even remember what tag is still in there, or if Mom left it in. I'll have to take a look when I have time this weekend.
Oh, he went in the Navy in 1943 at the age of 16, so it is a 1943 issue peacoat. He was on a destroyer that patrolled the Atlantic seacoast between NYC and Havana.
Regards! Michaelson
Here's a tag I haven't seen...
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/sanjas/jo1b.jpg
This comes off of a ww2 coat with 8 buttons showing that has another Naval Clothing Factory label (Name and Rate)
I have a 10 button one that has that tag and the tag is in good shape too.
QUOTE=wetmarble]Here's a tag I haven't seen...
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/sanjas/jo1b.jpg
This comes off of a ww2 coat with 8 buttons showing that has another Naval Clothing Factory label (Name and Rate)[/QUOTE]
When you say 10 buttons, I am assuming you have 8 buttons showing? Please post a picture of the tag.
I think it shows all 10 but I will have to double check. I will try to get a picture posted of the tag and the coat this weekend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacoat
I just won the ebay auction for this Navy bridge coat. Item # 190074780008. I tried for this one (item # 250069666003) but was outbid. The labels look identical.
Dakota
Nice coat. The labels are not consistent with what we would expect to see in the peacoats of those years (1942 and 1955). My only explanation is that these are officers coats. Officers buy their own uniforms which come from approved manufacturers. A manufacturer might use the same label for many years as the manufacturer is not doing strict contract work. It can be most confusing until you realize that the labels in the enlisted coats are entirely different from the labels in the privately purchased officers' coats.
These labels won't aid in the dating game as they aren't synonymous with the peacoat labels. Now that I have solved that problem, I can get to sleep tonight!
I'm so excited! I just won the auction on this WW2 officer's coat: ebay 140077379610
When it arrives, I'll post more pictures.
Ok, here's something new in the label game:
I found a listing on ebay of a coat issued in October, 1962 to a sailor. I asked him about the label on the inside since it wasn't pictured and he responded saying it read the following:
US NAVY - DA-36-243QM(CTM)11459-9-62 - Size 38R
So we now know that the US NAVY labels were not 1 year only and that they have some form of dating going on sometimes. If I had to guess, I'd say that 9-62 refers to a Sept 1962 manufacture date. In the above label, I'd Guess C meant December.
That is a very nice coat. If it were one size larger, I would be kicking myself for not finding it.
Good information to know about the "US NAVY" label going back at least to 1962. I felt that it was for more than one year, but could never pin it down like you have.
I'm still not convinced that the year was embedded at the end of the contract number on this particular label, but it may well have been. Hopefully it was, as that makes the job easier and much more specific.
I just remembered that I have an April 1965 "US NAVY" coat in my bedroom closet. I will check the numbers on it if I can do so without waking my wife. I'll give her a few more minutes to be sound asleep before I go ratting around in my closet.
Just checked the coat; no match on the contract number. Different series of numbers. Probably I would have noticed a long time ago if there had been a "65" at the end of the string of numbers. I will post a picture of the label in the next day or so, if I can remember to do so.
That doesn't mean that the date was not encoded on prior year "US NAVY" tags, however. There is still a lot that we have to learn.
After my last post, I remembered that I had some other coats with "US NAVY" tags squirreled away. I found three of them. One tag was too faded to be read, another followed the same pattern as the 1965 coat--as discussed above, and the last had at the end of the tag the designation "C-61" This adds credence to your theory that some of those tags were date coded. It would be consistent with a 1961 coat. Unfortunately I don't have the history of these coats, so I can't confirm or deny the theory.
After some checking, I did find the history of the C-61 coat. The history is consistent with late fifties or early to mid sixties, but we already knew that from the tag. So, not much was learned from the history. I do like your theory, though; it gives us a good working hypothesis. Like you, I'm betting the C-61 coat in my closet was issued in 1961.