Can one of our number across the big drink answer me something? Why is Ventile, as Wikipedia suggests, "hardly known in the United States"?Originally Posted by Dudleydoright
The only US maker (or even merchandiser) of Ventile garments I know of is Lost Worlds, and I'm not even sure they're offering it anymore.
No desire, no ambition leads me.
Maybe it's because nobody needs me.
Beware of any "Canada Goose" parka that is sold on Ebay as many of these are fakes!
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On the topic of arctic/antarctic clothing and equipment, here is a very interesting company that sells some very traditional gear:
http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/arcticanorak.htm
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I posted this query on another thread in this forum. Does anybody own one of these B-7 parka reproductions? I know it isn't an accurate reproduction of the original military ones, but this parka to me just screams ARCTIC EXPLORATION. I have been seriously considering the purchase of one.
http://www.uswings.com/b-3.asp#ALPHAB7
The zippers on the Expedition parkas are on the left and they do run about a size large. These zippers took a lot of getting used to, as I recall, particularly if you were all puffed up with a lot of layers underneath and were trying to crane over yourself to see the backwards configuration (imagine a very fat person trying to zip up a coat).
The clothes there at the time (about 15 years ago) divided the classes as well. All the scientists, media and VIP’s on off on a boondoggle from Washington all wore red Canada Goose Expedition parkas. All the workers (mechanics, truck drivers, food service people, field service men and women) all wore heavy duty Carharts.
The red-coat people all drank in the old officer’s club left over from military days (turned into a wine bar) and the old enlisted men’s bar was where the workers all drank. Drinking was a very big part of life there and buying and trading it was a constant process. We ran out in a remote camp and had to trade with the ice driller for some beer at terrible exchange rates…
We were often reminded down there how different life was for the early guys, as we zipped around the continent in jet helicopters and cargo planes or from site to site on snow-mobiles and Nansen sleds. The Scott and Shackelton huts were dramatic reminders of this, but we flew one time with the rear loading ramp of a C130 cargo plane open for us so we could shoot down on (I think) the Beardmore Glacier on the way back from the South Pole, and were aghast at the landscape those guys had to traverse on foot, broken, heaving ice, split repeatedly with crevasses. We were flying at around 100 miles an hour and while it was brisk with the door open, it was hard to imagine men pulling sleds by hand across that ice. But they did.
I spent one cozy evening in what was called “the Hotel California” (which was a motel-like dormitory at McMurdo station) reading Apsley Cheery-Garrad’s book “The Worst Journey in the World”. It is a wonderful volume which chronicled (among many other things) his long struggle on foot across the same sea-ice that we had recently crossed as a day trip in a Haagland tracked vehicle. His account is an astonishing tale of human endurance and old-time fortitude in the face of unbelievable conditions.
Cheery Garrard was the youngest member of the Scott team and was with the group that eventually found his final camp and body. There is a picture of Cheery Garrard on the cover of Sara Wheeler’s biography of him, standing in what looks like a buttoned cotton jacket with huge pockets, a wool scarf and a very odd hat and big fur mittens. He is wearing some kind of wind pants, leather lace-up boots and some kind of wrapping around the boot tops.
In all our modern clothes and transportation, we were rarely truly uncomfortable (though sometimes quite cold) and though we had to take survival training (including building a snow shelter, spending the night in a tent on the ice and learning how to turn off the helicopter engine after it has crashed and the pilot is dead) we were almost never in any real danger.
We were lectured quite severely on clothing discipline, however, and told not to be seduced by the sometimes mild climate. The instructor told us the story of a five-year veteran scientist who took a snow-mobile out to check on his instruments about a mile from the base camp, dressed in jeans, sneakers, a sweater, wind breaker, fleece hat and gloves. It is quite warm there with no wind and full sun.
As he was traveling, a white-out blew in and he could not see his hand in front of his face. He stopped the machine and went to step off. But in fact, the machine had not stopped and he couldn’t tell because he was effectively blind. It was still traveling. When his foot hit the snow, he was thrown off and landed on his back, in his light clothes and sneakers, his snow-mobile (with the radio) continuing off into the featureless white without him.
After he did not radio in on time, a rescue squad was sent out for him and happily found him, but the story became a cautionary tale for all newcomers who might not respect the nature of the weather there. We were only able to shoot for 17 out of 40 days while we were there, because of the weather.
I’ll see if I can find some photos of us dressed up in our red parkas in the blue landscape.
Rob
Nice anecdotes there Rob. thank you very much for taking the time to post them.
You are of course quite right about the 'backwards' zipper though for us Europeans it is the 'right' way LOL And they do run a size large. I'm an xl and my old parka is a medium but fits if just a little snug. My large is almost but not quite a little big.
I have met a couple of guys who worked Down south. You are spot-on about the class distinction. Reminds me of when I worked at CERN. The physists and scientists saw us in the 'Technical Support' as 2nd class. In the Antarctic I suppose it stems from the old days when expeditions like Scotts (but not Shakleton's) were Navy run and there were upper and lower deck and strict social boundaries between the officers and scientists (who were allegedly educated) and 'The Men' who weren't. This wasn't like that for the civillian run expeditions though. I think the British Antarctic Survey post WW2 until the end of having dogs down there got it just right. The end of the dogs and coming of the machines for travel as well as radios (regardless of the intentions behind it) pretty much spoiled the experience in my eyes. I would have liked the idea of needing to be independant and self reliant and yet also relying on your team mates and them only.
A great book to read on the immeditate post-WW2 British Falklands Islands Dependency Survey (FIDS) called 'Two Years In The Antarctic' by Kevin Walton & I thoroughly recommend it. It was a 2 year expedition to map a part of the South that had ex-servicemen (including several from the SAS and LRDG) and is a book I never tire of reading.
As Rob has said, Cherry Garrad's book is an incredible read. The journey by ship just to get to Antarctica is incredible. Get that book !! Rob, the jumper/jacket Cherry wears in that photo was a wool blanket material with large cotton pockets sewn on it and was made by Patons. The wool balaclavas were large for layering and had extra wool blanket material patches over the ears for extra windproofing.
A good DVD to get to look at the sort of clothing that was worn in the early days lot is 'The Last Place on Earth' the story from Roland Huntsford's book of the same name about the Scott/Amundsen expeditions.
'Blizzard' with Bruce Parry is the series of a recreation of the above expeditions in greenland to study the value of each groups cloting, diet and methods of travel. One Brit team manhauling and the Norges using dogs.
I'll keep digging out kit and finding photos.
Dave
Don't sweat the small stuff.
I think you can put that down to the long-standing North American outdors mantra, "Cotton kills", based on the fact that, when wet, cotton next to the skin will remain wet and will only ever lead to your getting colder and colder, which is of course dangerous when you're exposed in the open for extended periods. (Wool, rather than cotton, for base layers and general layering is most effective.)
This has been mentioned in other outdoors threads, including "Historic Hillwalking" and maybe the "Adventurer's Gear Thread". People get quite upset by the mere mention of cotton as a fabric for outdoors garments.
In alerting people to this possible danger, the US has tended to throw the baby out with the frozen bath water.
Mike has already mentioned Empire Canvas Works, who sell cotton outer garments for cold weather. Note that although it's cotton canvas, they emphasise "canvas". In freezing temperatures, tight woven cotton canvas and Ventile provide an effective windproof layer.
I await the arrival of at least one 'cottonist'...
What a beauty! Just an idea on identification: if that's a retail label, one of the many business directories of Cambridge from the early part of the 20th century would surely include a reference to "S. Morgan" outfitters in Trumpington. The Cambridgeshire Collection is a good source for local history in the area and worth dropping in on next time you're in the town centre.A smock from the Heroic Age. Not sure of which expedition so could be Scott, Shakleton or the Graham Land Expd of 1936. Ideas on a postcard please [...]
I live and work very near to the Scott Polar Research Institute (SPRI) and they haven't been much help in dating it .
There's surely a polar research link there...
Norwegians even today often swear by wool inside (warmth/insulation) and cotton outside (windproofing). A notorious example of the discomfort caused by cotton inside was the string vest (undershirt) favoured in the 1950s and 1960s, wearing which could be like wearing a wet dischloth next to the skin.
In the UK bothe Ventile and Grenfell cloth have deserved reputations for windproofness and water-repellence.
Well, as a 'cottonista' I have to comment ! Cotton kills in cold weather ONLY if next to the skin. Being hydrophilic they hold water next to the skin which steals your body heat faster than an Eastern European pickpocket on Oxford Street !
However, with wool or silk next to the skin and wool as a mid layer, cotton is still the best windproof outer layer for cold, dry conditions. We are of course talking about a high quality ventile or tight weave Egyptian cotton or grenfell cloth or gaberdine. These materials block wind but let moisture vapour pass through them way more efficiently than any synthetic including supplex.
I think ventile is rare because it is only made in one mill and has an odd patent which stops anyone else making it. As it is used extensively by the UK military- particularly for immersion suits, it only leaves enough surplus material to satisfy a few clothing makers. Even they have supply problems . I also think US military and outdoor clothing makers have more faith in new, man made super super materials.
Just my opinion and I stand to be corrected !
Dave
Don't sweat the small stuff.
Ventile was widely sold in the US during the 1970's. A number of firms made jackets, frequently referred to as mountain parkas, out of ventile. However, most mountain parkas were made of less expensive fabrics, either 60/40 or 65/35 blends of nylon or polyester and cotton. The Empire Canvas Works anorak is a wonderful wind shell for winter wear.
Cotton is a wonderful farbic for cold, dry conditions; perfect for Antarctica. The notion of "cotton kills" came into vogue during the 1960's and 1970's as backpacking became popular in the US. Cotton fabric against the skin, either long underwear or wearing jeans, is a very bad idea if the weather turns cold and wet.
Through the 1970's a US firm made down products similar Dave's gear.
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Holubar1.html
The orange parka in the photo on the site is an amazing parka, I have yet to see anything close to it in terms of warmth. Much like a down sleeping bag with sleeves. I have a pair of Holubar down mittens much the same as Dave's mittens; down filled, leather palms, fur backing. Great stuff.
I'm going to try to post some shots of us in our Antarctica costumes.
This is my wife and I out on the sea ice. My wife is my partner in crime on the job.
This is the camp where we took survival training. You can see the snow saw we used to cut the snow blocks for the shelter in the foreground.
Or if these are the wrong links, then there are no pictures whatever (I have never tried this before). If this works, I'll try to post some more. IF not, any advice would be appreciated.
Creeping past, Empire Canvas Works has some wonderful stuff. And I think that I always had the American "Cotton is Death" predjudice, but never thought about it. But that stuff from Empire really looks great.
Dave, I love that smock from S. Morgan. I'll bet it has a story to tell.
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