Vintage Shawl Collar Tux, Now What?

[J. M. Stovall]

I recently found a two piece, single breasted shawl collar tux with a 49-62 union tag that looks like it's never been worn, and it fits almost perfectly. I checked the formal wear primer thread but couldn't seem to find the info I need, but what would the perfect shirt/tie/shoe for this tux?

[Marc Chevalier]

Originally Posted by J. M. Stovall

I recently found a two piece, single breasted shawl collar tux with a 49-62 union tag that looks like it's never been worn, and it fits almost perfectly. I checked the formal wear primer thread but couldn't seem to find the info I need, but what would the perfect shirt/tie/shoe for this tux?

The single-breasted shawl collar tuxedo is the oldest kind there is. It wasn't until the 1900s that tuxedos began to appear with other kinds of lapels.


Although you certainly can wear a smooth-front, wing collared shirt with this kind of tuxedo, it tends to be associated with fold-down (i.e., business) collar evening shirts, either smooth front or pleated.


Same deal for tuxedo vests. They can be worn with a shawl collar tuxedo, but it's more common for this tuxedo to be paired with a cummerbund.


Wear a black smooth satin bowtie: try to match the black of the bowtie with the black of the tuxedo's satin lapels. If the lapels are midnight blue, try to find a midnight blue bowtie. (Not easy!) The bowtie can be of any shape: batwing, butterfly wing, square end, pointed end, rounded end, etc.


Shoes? I'd recommend lace-up plain-toe oxfords in black calf or patent leather. Some men prefer opera pumps in those same materials.

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[dhermann1]

More or less any you like. The basic pleated front shirt with either a fold down or stand up collar would be nice. I like the wide pleated shirts better than the little narrow pleats. Fold down collar is probably better. A self tied bow tie is always cooler than a pre tied, but if you're still working on your bow tie tying technique, I for one, wuld not fault you for using a pre tied. Shoes should be black oxfords, highly shined, at the very least. I prefer cap toes, but plain toe is fine. Just not wingtip. Patent leather is definitely nicer. If you want to go whole hog, opera pumps. They look awful sissyish to a lot of people (myself included), but they're "correct". Fred Astaire always has cap toe patent leather oxfords when he dances. I've seen shoes with regular black leather on most of the shoe and patent leather on the toe and heel. That could definitely look Astairish.
A black cummerbund could finish it off, or a waistcoat, black or white. Looking at old 30's flicks, they all seem to be wearing black waistcoats with their tuxes. I like the look of the old style 3 button waistcoats, with lapels that go all the way down the front, as opposed to the 4 or 5 button vests that tux rental places foist on people nowadays.
And on your noggin a snazzy black homburg. Plus a white silk pocket square, and a white silk scarf around your neck with what ever overcoat you choose.
But speaking of headgear, Cary Grant can be seen wearing a black fedora with his tux in the opening scenes of Topper. But then he slams his car into a tree and gets turned into a ghost. So maybe that's a bad idea.

[Marc Chevalier]

Originally Posted by dhermann1

Plus a white silk pocket square, ...

A small disagreement. I've always felt that, with all the silk that you're already wearing (i.e., silk bowtie and silk-faced lapels), adding a silk pocket handkerchief is the straw that breaks the camel's back.


If I were you, I'd go for white, thin linen, slightly starched and folded into points or a square.

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[dhermann1]

Whew! My advice jibes with that of the master. (There should be a smiley for "Wipes sweat from brow!")
Interesting that Marc recommends the cummerbund over the waistcoat. I have a 1939-49 labeled shawl collar tux (purchased from Lounger Orgetirix, to whom I am eternally grateful). I've tried it with cummerbund and white waist coat, and definitely didn't like the look of the white waist coat. I saw a cute short subject from 1937 called "Sunday Night at the Trocadero". In it all the men are sporting black waistcoats, which was the style then. So I recently purchased one. (I think UPS is going to deliver it today, actually). I want to try it out, but I'm thinking that if Marc says cummerbund, he's probably right on the money.
Note to all Loungers: It is total fun to get dressed up in a tux and go out on the town. Don't worry about an excuse. A tux is more acceptable for many occasions than we realize. Your lady will completely swoon. Better than six quarts of pheremones. However, if you really can't tap dance, try to resist the urge.

[dhermann1]

Originally Posted by Marc Chevalier

A small disagreement. I've always felt that, with all the silk that you're already wearing (i.e., silk bowtie and silk-faced lapels), adding a silk pocket handkerchief is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
If I were you, I'd go for white, thin linen, slightly starched and folded into points or a square.
.

Ahhh . . . maybe that's why mine always looks so not quite right. Just another carry over from the bad old days when I wore my old tux with every cliche of incorrect usage. Thanks for the tip.
Speaking of lapels, that's one of the more interesting things I've learned here, that the material should match the material of the tie.

[Marc Chevalier]

Originally Posted by dhermann1

Speaking of lapels, that's one of the more interesting things I've learned here, that the material should match the material of the tie.

As much as possible. That's why at summer resorts, men wore bowties made of Palm Beach cloth to match the material of their Palm Beach cloth dinner jackets (whose lapels didn't have silk facings).

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[dhermann1]

You mean white or cream colored bowties? With the white jacket?

[Marc Chevalier]

Originally Posted by dhermann1

You mean white or cream colored bowties? With the white jacket?

No, not white or cream. Palm Beach cloth came in an array of colors. In the '30s and '40s, Palm Beach cloth bowties and cummerbunds came in midnight blue, burgundy, bottle green, grey, and several other colors. They were worn with the cream-colored Palm Beach cloth dinner jacket.


And yes, there were also some Palm Beach cloth dinner jackets made in burgundy, bottle green, etc. I'm not sure whether they were meant to be worn with identically colored ties/cummerbunds, or with midnight blue ties/cummerbunds. My guess is the latter.

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[dhermann1]

Did they wear burgundy ties with the burgundy cummerbunds? The only images I've seen (posted here on the Lounge) show burgundy cummerbunds with black ties, if I recall correctly.
Oh, and would they ever wear spectators with those?

[Marc Chevalier]

Originally Posted by dhermann1

Did they wear burgundy ties with the burgundy cummerbunds?

Yes ... or at least '30s Esquire wanted them to, and showed illustrations to that effect.


Spectators were never worn with tuxedos at any time ... except by performers doing song & dance routines.

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[dhermann1]

Of course. I was thinking of those outfits with white slacks, blue blazers and spectators. Soooo 1934.

[Marc Chevalier]

Incidentally, it was also perfectly acceptable to wear bowties and cummerbunds (in black or other colors) made of silk or rayon barathea, rather than Palm Beach cloth.

.

[J. M. Stovall]

Thanks gents, you've both been super helpful!

[Midnight Blue]

Originally Posted by dhermann1

Did they wear burgundy ties with the burgundy cummerbunds? The only images I've seen (posted here on the Lounge) show burgundy cummerbunds with black ties, if I recall correctly.
Oh, and would they ever wear spectators with those?

Maybe not burgundy, but maroon was really big in 1930s Esquire illustrations.

[Marc Chevalier]

Originally Posted by Midnight Blue

Maybe not burgundy, but maroon was really big in 1930s Esquire illustrations.

Maybe not tangerines, but clementines ...
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[dhermann1]

Looks from that illustration like they just had a lot of extra purplish ink they wanted to get rid of.
Actually there's a subtle but clear difference between maroon and burgundy. Maroon is a much darker deeper color than burgundy.
You could say the difference between maroon and burgundy is very analagous to the difference between tangerines and clementines.
I find the colored patterned socks interesting! Sort of reinforces the idea that the tux as we know it was meant to be SEMI formal wear.

[chanteuseCarey]

YES!! dhermann is sooo right. We ladies swoon (and more). Guaranteed. Think I'm kidding? HA!

I'd share a story about how long ago a many times date of mine (long before DH's time) had to try to explain to the dry cleaners about the lipstick stains at the bottom of the front of his rented tux shirt... We had gone to the Art Deco Ball at the beautifully restored Paramount Theater in Oakland, CA that night. After the ball, how he was able to drive us safely back to his house I'll never know. He never even made it out of the car with that tux shirt and bow tie still on intact (or I with my gown either, for that matter) when he finally parked the car in his garage when we got back to his place after the Ball.

But uh, maybe I better not share that story after all...

He presented me with his collapsible silk opera hat he had bought just to wear to the Ball as a gift at the end of night (actually early morning by then). I still have the hat after all these years... sigh.

Now my dear hubby is a smart gent. He bought his tuxedo ahead of our wedding, and a tail coat too. He wore white tie and tails for the wedding. He wore his tux to six different occasions/event in the first six months of our marriage. He got his money's worth with buying compared to renting. Let's just say his tuxedo has served us both well and brought much pleasure to us both these many years Looking for that elusive DB "Casablanca" dinner jacket...

Trust me on this guys, all gals love how a man (her man especially) looks in a tuxedo! Its some sort of special magic, the effect it has on us women. We can't explain it, but its undeniable

If you really can't tap dance, try ballroom dance lessons!

Originally Posted by dhermann1

Note to all Loungers: It is total fun to get dressed up in a tux and go out on the town. Don't worry about an excuse. A tux is more acceptable for many occasions than we realize. Your lady will completely swoon. Better than six quarts of pheremones. However, if you really can't tap dance, try to resist the urge.

[dhermann1]

re: Blue blazer and spectators look. Here's my dad's HS graduation picture from 1934. He's 2 months short of 17, trying VERY hard to look all grown up.

I know, But I love this picture.