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A generation with its hand out...

Messages
10,561
Location
My mother's basement
It'll be interesting to see how this digital age of ours will affect our giving habits.

Like Yogi, I'm reluctant to make predictions, especially about the future. But I've noted a trend of getting donors to sign up for a monthly contribution of, say, 10 bucks, which is debited automatically from one's checking account. Easier to get them to give it up in 12 little bites than one big one during the semi-annual on-air beg-a-thon.
 

AmateisGal

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,126
Location
Nebraska
No, I don't think that at all. He has provided more than enough evidence of his own hedging and obfuscating. I just calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

I'm no "ist" or "ian" of any sort. Ideologies become like religions, not subject to reason. The human tendency to invest personal identities in social/economic/political perspectives does much more harm than good. We'd be better off without it.

By the way, hedging is fine by me. It makes sense to allow for other contingencies and, in this case, perspectives. I just ask that people acknowledge it for what it is. It's a tacit nod to the possibility of being wrong.

I guess I didn't read it that way. It came off as snarky and condescending. I doubt that was your intent, but that's how it appeared to me.
 
Messages
16,817
Location
New York City
I was having a discussion today with a colleague, and I find the idea of black Friday and cyber Monday (and all the crazy chaos that goes with them) far more offensive to my tastes. And I like shopping deals, I've grown tired of all the excess and consumption.

I like to give to charities around March/April/May/June. I don't tend to have money left in my budget in November or December (with kids and relatives to buy/make gifts for and holiday parties to bring treats for and my own holiday meals to host). I do the canned food drives and the bell ringers (salvation army) this time of year.

My grandfather said on the front during WWII the Salvation Army provided free coffee while the Red Cross charged 5 cents. I always give to the bell ringers but have avoided giving to the Red Cross, proving the ability of my family to hold a multi-generational grudge. Also, i know several stores that do not allow bell ringers to be present outside (their choice), and I choose not to shop at those stores and take my business to where the bell ringers are during those months.

Many years ago, there was a mini-scandal in NYC as they caught (on video if memory serves) several Salvation Army workers pocketing the money from the buckets. It's a shame as I'm sure it was only a few, but I now won't give money that way. Like everyone, I have limited funds, so I avoid anything that has proven to be weakly policed. But as we know, there are plenty of needy causes, so I just directed that money to another charity (which probably has had its own issues, but I don't know about those).

My mom, who doesn't have a lot, got so turned off after the United Way scandal in the '90s that she now only gives to people in her life who need help - she has sworn off organized charity completely. She says she loves knowing 100% goes directly to the person in need and she likes actually knowing the person she is helping. I haven't gone her route, but I understand why she feels the way she does.
 
Messages
10,561
Location
My mother's basement
It's terribly inefficient for thousands or millions of individuals to send canned food or winter coats (or whatever) to people coping in the aftermath of a natural disaster (or whatever). So of course there's a place for organizations specializing in such relief efforts.

But yeah, we can't help but feel like chumps when we hear of gross inefficiencies and outright corruption by the charities we have supported. It's akin to the particular sense of outrage and violation we experience when those entrusted with power and influence -- cops, clergy, the courts, etc. -- violate that trust.

If I harbor any absolute belief, it is that we must combat corruption. We really don't want a society where only chumps play it straight, where getting what you want involves piecing off officials of one sort or another, where buildings collapse because inspectors are on the take, where those who can afford to buy the law enforcement apparatus live by one set of rules -- their own -- and those who can't lose their property and their liberty.
 

LizzieMaine

Bartender
Messages
32,965
Location
Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
Wealth is created by consumer demand as its actual proximate cause, and while the mind that actually develops the product has its place, its epiphany moment would never take place at all were it not for the macroeconomic realities which till the fertile ground upon which it falls.

Or to boil it down as succinctly as possible, you can't plant a seed without dirt.
 

LizzieMaine

Bartender
Messages
32,965
Location
Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
I'm a big believer in direct support too -- I've posted in the past about the explosive scandal that caught up our local community-chest organization a couple years back, where the smiling, glad-handing impresario of the organization turned out to have embezzled more than four million dollars in donations over a period of about seventeen years. I had always considered this guy a piece of work, going to back to when I was engaged to produce his radio commercials for a political campaign in the '80s, and while I was extremely upset to see the charity group sabotaged in this way, I was gratified, at least, to see that my early judgement of his character was not in error.

My only disappointment in that respect was that this Enemy Of The People got a mild sentence in a Club Fed type of prison. There are a lot of working-class bookeepers around here who were caught with their hands in the till for a few thousand who are doing hard time. Justice may be blind, but it can smell the influence.
 
Messages
16,817
Location
New York City
I'm a big believer in direct support too -- I've posted in the past about the explosive scandal that caught up our local community-chest organization a couple years back, where the smiling, glad-handing impresario of the organization turned out to have embezzled more than four million dollars in donations over a period of about seventeen years. I had always considered this guy a piece of work, going to back to when I was engaged to produce his radio commercials for a political campaign in the '80s, and while I was extremely upset to see the charity group sabotaged in this way, I was gratified, at least, to see that my early judgement of his character was not in error.

My only disappointment in that respect was that this Enemy Of The People got a mild sentence in a Club Fed type of prison. There are a lot of working-class bookeepers around here who were caught with their hands in the till for a few thousand who are doing hard time. Justice may be blind, but it can smell the influence.

After many of the Wall Street crooks from the '80s got sent to Club Feds, there was a blowback in the '90s and '00s. As a result, many "white-collar" crooks were circulating in the regular prison system in those decades as the public had had enough - at least in the NYC region.

I haven't heard much lately, so I wonder if that is still happening or if the system has "slipped" (with, I'm sure, plenty of money greasing the skids) back into a Club Fed option for the well connected.

Somewhat related. I'm all for stiff penalties after a fair trial tilted toward letting 1000 guilty people go free before convicting one innocent one, but even for the clearly guilty, prison shouldn't be a circle of hell. Spartan - yes, but not the hell that many seem to be.
 

Harp

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,508
Location
Chicago, IL US
My only disappointment in that respect was that this Enemy Of The People got a mild sentence in a Club Fed type of prison. There are a lot of working-class bookeepers around here who were caught with their hands in the till for a few thousand who are doing hard time. Justice may be blind, but it can smell the influence.

For Justice to exist, there must also live a measure of Injustice.
---legal proverb
 
Messages
10,561
Location
My mother's basement
After many of the Wall Street crooks from the '80s got sent to Club Feds, there was a blowback in the '90s and '00s. As a result, many "white-collar" crooks were circulating in the regular prison system in those decades as the public had had enough - at least in the NYC region.

I haven't heard much lately, so I wonder if that is still happening or if the system has "slipped" (with, I'm sure, plenty of money greasing the skids) back into a Club Fed option for the well connected.

Somewhat related. I'm all for stiff penalties after a fair trial tilted toward letting 1000 guilty people go free before convicting one innocent one, but even for the clearly guilty, prison shouldn't be a circle of hell. Spartan - yes, but not the hell that many seem to be.

Part of the contract ought be that a convict does his time and comes out with all the parts he went in with and is reincorporated in society. Alas, our society too often fails at that. It's not the justice system alone to blame, either. It's all of us, and most particularly the offenders themselves.

I have little doubt that if all I knew before I went to the joint was a criminal livelihood, and if when I was released I found few willing to offer me gainful (let alone meaningful) employment in the straight world, I would go back to how I knew to turn a buck.

I don't have the answers. I've known too many cons to be misty-eyed about the kinds of people they generally are. But they are our people, like it or not. We aren't gonna line 'em up and shoot 'em, so it's in our own best interest to work them back into the straight world.

It's hard to make that case to a person whose education and work history barely qualifies him for a minimum wage job, especially when he knows he could be knocking down many times that amount by working his old hustle.
 

Angus Forbes

One of the Regulars
Messages
261
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
Did someone mention a movie theater a while back? Disney to the rescue -- see Goofy's performance of "Oh, the world owes me a living . . ." probably from the old cartoon Moving Day.

At said theater, the projector jockey could run this cartoon before every show.
 
Messages
10,561
Location
My mother's basement
Modern times ...

We are all familiar with that particular definition of "flip."

It wasn't so long ago that only cops and crooks and lawyers (forgive the redundancy) knew that.
 

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up
Bartender
Messages
4,479
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA
Many years ago, there was a mini-scandal in NYC as they caught (on video if memory serves) several Salvation Army workers pocketing the money from the buckets. It's a shame as I'm sure it was only a few, but I now won't give money that way. Like everyone, I have limited funds, so I avoid anything that has proven to be weakly policed. But as we know, there are plenty of needy causes, so I just directed that money to another charity (which probably has had its own issues, but I don't know about those).

My mom, who doesn't have a lot, got so turned off after the United Way scandal in the '90s that she now only gives to people in her life who need help - she has sworn off organized charity completely. She says she loves knowing 100% goes directly to the person in need and she likes actually knowing the person she is helping. I haven't gone her route, but I understand why she feels the way she does.
I have kids and save rolls of change all year round for it. It ends up being a few dollars here and there (which adds up) but by spreading it out, I'm less concerned about the fingers in the cookie jar.
 

ChiTownScion

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,240
Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
Many years ago, there was a mini-scandal in NYC as they caught (on video if memory serves) several Salvation Army workers pocketing the money from the buckets. It's a shame as I'm sure it was only a few, but I now won't give money that way. Like everyone, I have limited funds, so I avoid anything that has proven to be weakly policed. But as we know, there are plenty of needy causes, so I just directed that money to another charity (which probably has had its own issues, but I don't know about those).


I don't give to the Sally Am. Ever. The money tossed into those red kettles- at least in my area- doesn't go to support their homeless shelters or other charitable endeavors: those are supported through state, local, and Federal subsidies. The money tossed into the kettles supports the Salvation Army "officer training programs" (translation: ministerial training) and the last thing that I'd ever want to do is contribute to cranking out more abysmally educated mercenary religionists.


My understanding is that in the early days of the organized labor movement in the US, the Salvation Army was paid off by union busting employers to have their bands disrupt organizing meetings. Perhaps Miss Lizzie can tell us more about this, but I was told that the reason that Joe Hill's songs (e.g., "The Preacher and the Slave," "Get the Bosses Off our Backs") employed the tunes of gospel hymns was to give groups like the Wobblies something to sing when the Salvation Army bands showed up to disrupt meetings.
 

LizzieMaine

Bartender
Messages
32,965
Location
Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
Yep, that did happen during the 1910s. The Sallies have a decidedly mixed record when it comes to Whose Side Are You On?, having been at least somewhat sympathetic to labor causes during their earliest years only to move firmly to the right during the 20th Century, as "respectable middle class" types became more involved in its administrative side, supplanting the working-class adherents who had formed the early backbone of the movement.

Today, the SA is losing a lot of favor in our area for its stance on GBLT issues -- it may do good in its charity work, certainly but it's still a religious organization with a firmly fundamentalist worldview. Those who don't choose to support that particular brand of religion will often pass up the kettles and support other locally-based charity groups such as our local Interfaith Food Pantry, which has no doctrinal affiliation.
 

Nobert

Practically Family
Messages
831
Location
In the Maine Woods
My experience, as a former Sally thrift store employee, is that the bulk of their organization, and the money accrued from selling cast-offs, was devoted to bringing drunks to Jesus. That may be because the store I worked in was right next to the rehab center.

There was definitely a schism between the Salvation Army brass and us civilian employees. I always felt we were not quite considered, even moreso than in other top-down places I've worked for. I won't go so far as to say we were viewed as suspect, but there was a clannish attitude from the higher ups, especially those who grew up as S.A. brats. I can tell you that, as a charitable organization, they are permitted to pay less than minimum wage. And, what's more, they do.
 

Lean'n'mean

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,077
Location
Cloud-cuckoo-land
Starving people the world over have a great demand for food - I don't see demand as all that difficult to create or the driving force for economic advancement or wealth creation Otherwise, wanting things would by itself be wealth creating.

Well fed people have an even greater demand for food. :rolleyes:

Creating supply to meet that demand is the talent / the genius / the way wealth gets created. It, to me, is not a a chicken and egg scenario at all. The human demand or want for things is limitless, the talent is in finding a way to economically meet that demand.

People want what the people get. The talent lies in creating a market, organizing the supply is a mere detail.
 
Messages
16,817
Location
New York City
Well fed people have an even greater demand for food. :rolleyes:



People want what the people get. The talent lies in creating a market, organizing the supply is a mere detail.

Yup, human demand / want is limitless - that's my point, sans eye roll.

The herculean efforts - physical, intellectual and logistical - employed, argue that creating supply (things like electricity, iPhones or cashews*) is more than a mere detail.


* Interesting article in today's WSJ on the changing supply chain for cashews over the last seventy or so years https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-cashews-explain-globalization-1512142823
 

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up
Bartender
Messages
4,479
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA
My experience, as a former Sally thrift store employee, is that the bulk of their organization, and the money accrued from selling cast-offs, was devoted to bringing drunks to Jesus. That may be because the store I worked in was right next to the rehab center.

There was definitely a schism between the Salvation Army brass and us civilian employees. I always felt we were not quite considered, even moreso than in other top-down places I've worked for. I won't go so far as to say we were viewed as suspect, but there was a clannish attitude from the higher ups, especially those who grew up as S.A. brats. I can tell you that, as a charitable organization, they are permitted to pay less than minimum wage. And, what's more, they do.
There's issues in some places with the rehab facilities the SA runs, particularly with them bringing addicts in from elsewhere and just releasing them locally after finishing their program.

Addiction services are severely lacking in our country and the vast majority are religious, unless you're in a state one. If you want a free rehab experience, don't have Cadillac healthcare nor have you been in prison for an addiction related crime, your best bet is a religious service. Maybe things are different elsewhere, but where I've lived it's always been AA, NA, and the Salvation Army. All three are religious. (Where I used to live there was also a local organization that ran an even more religious one than the SA... like they answered their thrift store phones with a bible quote.)

There's also the issue that some places in the United States have next to no non-religious charities. I live in one of those areas, but then its common here that people you just met ask what church you go to or share which one they attend in your first conversation with them.
 
Messages
16,817
Location
New York City
...There's also the issue that some places in the United States have next to no non-religious charities. I live in one of those areas, but then its common here that people you just met ask what church you go to or share which one they attend in your first conversation with them.

Having grown up agnostic in the (basically) secular NYC region and having lived in NYC for decades where religion is, IMHO, respected but not part of the daily conversation, I was surprised when I went to places in the country on business - Houston being one - where religion was regularly discussed / people left work to go to church before, say, a business dinner / and where you were asked about your religion (with the assumption being you practiced one).

While I was surprise, I never felt any negativity or exclusion when I referenced my views - a devout agnostic who only finds himself in church for friends' weddings - but, sometimes, it did spark some lively conversation. While a lot of regionality has been homogenized out of our country, things like religion show it isn't all gone.
 

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