American atrocities in Normandy

Chas · May 12, 2010

And if one joined the German armed services during WW2 they swore an oath of loyalty to Hitler. Not to the German nation, it's people or constitution (which was torn up by the NAZIs in any case) but to the man himself.

After reading articles like this, I still harbor the notion that the Allies don't need to apologize for winning the war the way they did.

Or this incident. Certainly makes you wonder how the Wehrmacht got it's reputation as a disciplined, legendary fighting force. Criminals in uniform, that's about it.

MisterCairo · May 12, 2010

fftopic:
So, how 'bout them Blue Jays?

Silver Dollar · May 12, 2010

MisterCairo said:
fftopic:
So, how 'bout them Blue Jays?

I'm not sure. There isn't enough meat on those little bones to satisfy most adult appetites. ------Wha? Oh you mean the baseball team? Never mind. :eusa_doh: lol

I spent 20 years in the military. Thank Goodness I was a non combatant by virtue of my profession and the Geneva Convention prohibiting me from actual combat. If you want a career military man's opinion about war and what goes on in it, here it is.

War is supposed to be the last resort in solving an international problem. I despise war. I think it's downright brutal and results in too much loss of life on both sides. When you get caught up in war and all it dumps on you, sometimes your actions and emotions are impossible to control. As a result, both sides end up doing some incredibly horrible acts, even the "Good Guys". The reason I'm glad I'm not a combatant is because I can't bring myself to end a human life. I even hate to kill bugs and animals not endangering my health. HOWEVER, when it comes to a group of people who are threatening my way of life, my freedom, my life itself, my religious choice, my family, my political choices etc etc etc, they have to be stopped and sometimes the job just ain't pleasant and sweet. Sometimes we're called upon to do IMHO some pretty rotten things but they're necessary to keep the other side from thinking they can get away with anything they want. True, it says thou shall not murder. It's wrong and "sinful" , ( I use a worn out old cliche here). It's also equally "sinful" to allow your own life to be snuffed out or yourself be bullied and pushed around without protecting yourself no matter what it takes. There are no good guys and no bad guys, just aggressors and defenders and sometimes that even changes. The more you're involved with war, the more bad stuff will happen and the worse things get.

Chet · May 12, 2010

Whoever said "history is written by the victor" needs to check out the history books being used to educate American youth. They're written by revisionists.
I agree with you Chas.

StetsonHomburg · May 12, 2010

Well I feel that the great war and the second world wars were horrendous and terrifing! And because we (the Allies) won the war that alot of our war crimes were forgotten, and now most people only talk of the horrible things the Germans did. But I do have one question for you guys: Did the American, Canadian, and/or British war crimes ever get tried in Nuremburg?

jporgeck · May 12, 2010

bbc1969 said:
I get your point. However, I have read many accounts of Soviet forces and their treatment of prisoners, citizens, and specifically widespread rape. I have never seen documentation or read of any instances of a "Huge" amount of rape being perpetrated by the vast majority of allied nations. Please direct me in the right direction if there is indeed documentation of say the U.S., UK, French, Canadian, Australian, committing such "Huge" amounts of rape and pillage on the populace. Of course incidents did take place, committed by servicemen of these nations, but nothing systemic and basically "institutionalized" like what took place at the hands of Soviet troops.

History is written by the victors.

Guttersnipe · May 12, 2010

Prien said:
"...even defining what it meant to be a “Nazi” is a slippery slope. Party membership isn’t definitive as many joined just to keep their jobs or because they believed in a strong government etc. and didn’t realize that the despicable aspects of the party would actually be carried out. The crimes of the “Nazis” escalated over time and the worst crimes were kept secret from most Germans. Indeed general knowledge the worst crimes didn’t occur until after the war. Others embraced even the worst aspects of the party but never joined the party."

Prien,
I understand that you're quoting the work of an author, however, I feel the need to point out the inherent (and unfortunately often repeated) intellectual dishonesty in those words.

Fact:
1) The population of Nazi Germany (including ethnic Germans living outside of Pre-WW2 boundaries) was 90-93 Million.
2) At the peak of its membership (1945) the Nazi party had about 8.5 million members.
3) According to Nazi party bylaws, membership was to be officially limited to 10% of the eligible population.
4) Because of age restrictions, 8.5 million represents FAR more than 10% of the eligible population.

Translation: there was INTENSE competition to join the Nazi party. The benefits of membership were many and highly desirable. The decision to join was not made arbitrarily, it required deliberate and sustained effort; the application process included fairly extensive genealogical, political, and personal background checking (particularly after 1933).

The Notion of membership not equating to being "a real Nazi" is part of the post war generation of silence that was so prevalent in West Germany, and is regarded by the vast majority of serious historians as a debunked theory. Furthermore, assertion that the extent of the Holocaust was hidden, is again, a theory that is extensively challenged by academia. There is fairly conclusive evidence that even the people in the Warsaw, Lodz, and Theresienstadt ghettos knew of mass shootings and gassings as early as 1942.

The overwhelming historical/sociological evidence is that an extremely significant percentage of Germans failed to see what was going on because chose not to.

Guttersnipe · May 12, 2010

StetsonHomburg said:
Well I feel that the great war and the second world wars were horrendous and terrifing! And because we (the Allies) won the war that alot of our war crimes were forgotten, and now most people only talk of the horrible things the Germans did. But I do have one question for you guys: Did the American, Canadian, and/or British war crimes ever get tried in Nuremburg?

No, they didn't. But did Canadians, Americans, or Brits do this to CIVILIAN MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN?

or this?

StetsonHomburg · May 12, 2010

Guttersnipe said:
No, they didn't. But did Canadians, Americans, or Brits do this to CIVILIAN MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN?

or this?

Well I am not saying that the war crimes were equal but I am saying that we have to remember that both of us did it, even though one did it more than the other.

Chas · May 12, 2010

StetsonHomburg said:
Well I am not saying that the war crimes were equal but I am saying that we have to remember that both of us did it, even though one did it more than the other.

No, way different. Not even in the same ballpark. The NAZIs engaged in the deliberate killing of civilians in the application of terror to guarantee submission, and as part of an official policy of genocide.

The killing of German civlians in bombing raids does not equate to a policy of genocide.

Give your head a good, hard shake.

n.b. another German apologist, judging from your profile pic. Can you be any more transparent?

Viola · May 12, 2010

StetsonHomburg said:
Well I am not saying that the war crimes were equal but I am saying that we have to remember that both of us did it, even though one did it more than the other.

More? Like its a difference of momentum and not intentional policy? Like even the truly heinous things the Allies did, and there were some, were comparable?

Miss Crisplock · May 12, 2010

Thank you Guttersnipe for your well done reply.

Spitfire · May 12, 2010

bbc1969 said:
I get your point. However, I have read many accounts of Soviet forces and their treatment of prisoners, citizens, and specifically widespread rape. I have never seen documentation or read of any instances of a "Huge" amount of rape being perpetrated by the vast majority of allied nations. Please direct me in the right direction if there is indeed documentation of say the U.S., UK, French, Canadian, Australian, committing such "Huge" amounts of rape and pillage on the populace. Of course incidents did take place, committed by servicemen of these nations, but nothing systemic and basically "institutionalized" like what took place at the hands of Soviet troops.

You should read james Hollands: "Italys sorrow" then.

Not only because its a brilliant description of a front often forgotten - also in those days.
But also because it has many descriptions of the killing, stealing and worst of all - the massraping of italian girls, women and even old women done by French colonial troops (from Marocco mostly) under command of a US general.
This general did nothing to stop it, untill it got so brutal and totally out of control, that even other allied officers complained to him.
But it was looked upon as a sort of pay for these warriors.
You fight our war - feel free to rape and kill and steal from the italian civil population.

Silver Dollar · May 12, 2010

StetsonHomburg said:
Well I am not saying that the war crimes were equal but I am saying that we have to remember that both of us did it, even though one did it more than the other.

Arrgh! StetsonHomberg. This isn't a case of one side doing more than the other !! This is a case of a nation bent on a nationally sanctioned policy of genocide and extermination of anyone else who wasn't them not just a handful of nutbags!!! True there were 6 million Jews exterminated but the Nazi's exterminated over 25 million people including Gypsies, Poles, Catholics, homosexuals, the mentally handicapped, and more. Believe me, if Nazi Germany had won the war, there wouldn't be a Jew, a Gypsy, a Black person, and who knows what other ethnic group left in the world today. the extermination wasn't only bullets and gas. There were horrific medical experiments, wholesale starvation, summary executions and the list goes on. "Not equal" isn't even close. And then again, how do you know that many of allied war crimes went unpunished? Not all of the legal actions taken after the war were made public. There were loads of them. Just because you haven't seen it in print doesn't mean it didn't take place. Atrocities happen in war all the time. It's the nature of war. What the Third Reich did was beyond all comprehension such that people have a hard time believing it was real. It doesn't matter how many times you try to defend the Third Reich's military, I'll never ever agree with your point of view.

HarpPlayerGene · May 12, 2010

To the men and women of the United States armed forces, past and present: I am proud of you, grateful to you, and I salute you!

It's a tough bizness, what they do -- and they've always done it the very best way the world has ever seen.

Chas · May 12, 2010

Well.... this had been educational. I had no idea that the revisionist/nazi sympathizer presence was in the FL. I was wrong. I guess the war isn't over after all, if I may be allowed to wax so dramatic.

No matter. They will go down. Again.

Jabos · May 12, 2010

There is too much in this thread to argue with individually so let me say this: Any post that attempts to equate in any way, on any level, the actions of individual or groups of Americans, Brits, Canadians, Australians, etc. (less Russians) to those of the axis powers is totally offensive to humanity. Shame on you and your ignorance!!!!:rage: :rage: :rage:

MikeBravo · May 12, 2010

This thread look like heading in the same direction as "Historical Debate Regarding the WWII" http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=49751&page=2

It is the same people posting the same things that got that thread locked!

Let's face it, few people are suited to war. It goes against all our instincts to take human life. Many people do not react well to the situation. While there is war, there will always be "atrocities".

It still continues today in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. I saw a television documentary on the Falklands War. The British soldier interviewed told of how they captured a hill from the Argentinians and shot all 15 or so prisoners. He said he had admitted it in public a number of times but to this day there have been no charges laid.

In Australia we are very proud of our ANZACS at Gallipoli during WWI. A British officer wrote of how an Austalian officer proudly boasted of shooting Turkish prisoners! Nice.

dr greg · May 12, 2010

old scores

WW1 Australian troops were also apparently well-known on the Western front for "taking no prisoners" although the demonisation of
the "Hun" in Allied propaganda was no doubt influential there, but back to the Nazis: the wholesale shooting of civilians for psychological and logistic reasons by the German Army was not invented by them, their grandfathers were renowned for it in the 1870 war and the use of terror against civilians in occupied territory was official policy right from the start of WW1, I'm not letting the Nazis off the hook at all, it's just that their seeds had fertile soil to grow in..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium

PADDY · May 12, 2010

LOCKED.

Look around you gents in the other threads and other rooms and Ask Yourself...Where exactly does this rightfully 'fit' into the ethos of TFL...?

As it is another thread that has lost its' footing and teeters on the edge.

Too much information going off in too many directions and often too heated with the political side of things.[huh]

I'm not convinced that this even belongs here due to the nature of the discussion sliding into the politics and whys and wherefores or war.

At best Gents it's a general discussion OB thread, at worse...it should disappear into the cellars of TFL.

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