Stop for Nazi posts?

Chainsaw · Aug 8, 2010

Neophyte said:
Actually, it's exactly the same.

What in the fact that if people collect One dollar coins emblazoned with the statue of liberty on them, they do so because they love the ideals?

So if they collect Nazi memorabilia, then they do so because they "love the ideals?"

Soldiers are one thing, monsters bent by evil are another.

Neophyte · Aug 8, 2010

Chainsaw said:
What in the fact that if people collect One dollar coins emblazoned with the statue of liberty on them, they do so because they love the ideals?

So if they collect Nazi memorabilia, then they do so because they "love the ideals?"

Soldiers are one thing, monsters bent by evil are another.

What if they collect them because they like how they look? What if they collect them for the history? What if they collect them just to collect them?

Pointless conjecture.

StetsonHomburg · Aug 8, 2010

Neophyte said:
What if they collect them for the history?

That'd be me!

thunderw21 · Aug 8, 2010

Some (like myself) collect WW2 German items for the reason that they find it all very interesting and like owning something from the enemy. Same reason vets have bring-backs: to own something from the defeated enemy.

I've a small collection of Nazi items but some time ago because of the huge number of fakes.

Chas · Aug 8, 2010

Carnage said:
I'm not sure it is fair to say that all Germans during the war period were "criminals in uniform"...

Yeah, it is. The invaded other people's countries, with the intention of killing off whole populations for lebensraum, murdered and deported for slave labor millions to the Reich. If that isn't criminal, then what is?

Not even the Romans or Mongols did what the NAZIs did. The NAZIs committed genocide with a purpose. Hitler's war was a race war, he never hid his intentions and the German people signed on willingly. They knew it was wrong afterward an apologized for it. I'm cool with Germans, they took responsibility.

As far as collecting swag and uniforms and such- the next time a big militaria show is in your neck of the woods- just go hang out with the NAZIphiles. It won't take long before you start to see something weird or unsettling about them.

Put the stuff in museums, or whatever. I'm not advocating dumping all the NAZI stuff into a landfill, because people need to be reminded of what they did.

Deleted member 12480 · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
Yeah, it is. The invaded other people's countries, with the intention of killing off whole populations for lebensraum, murdered and deported for slave labor millions to the Reich. If that isn't criminal, then what is?

Not even the Romans or Mongols did what the NAZIs did. The NAZIs committed genocide with a purpose.

but in all fairness, you could kinda say that about every army there is..

including the British army...

StetsonHomburg · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
Yeah, it is. The invaded other people's countries, with the intention of killing off whole populations for lebensraum, murdered and deported for slave labor millions to the Reich. If that isn't criminal, then what is?

Not even the Romans or Mongols did what the NAZIs did. The NAZIs committed genocide with a purpose.

What about Rommel eh? Yes he invaded other countries but not with an intention of killing off any populations and he never ordered someones murdur nor did he use slave labour, infact he ordered that the civilians
who helped them make fortifications be paid for their work! Even your
beloved Patton liked him, Churchill liked him, his enemies liked him! Yes,
there were criminals in the reich but not all of them were, EXCPECIALLY
ERWIN ROMMEL!

Chas · Aug 8, 2010

deleteduser said:
but in all fairness, you could kinda say that about every army there is..

including the British army...

The British army never invaded a country, say, France with the intention of killing off all the French because they were subhuman.

StetsonHomburg · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
The British army never invaded a country, say, France with the intention of killing off all the French because they were subhuman.

I'd take my advice and just quit while your ahead chas!
And I know what the Nazi's did and it was terrible but
not every german was a nazi, the average wehrmacht
soldier usually didn't know anything the Reich didn't want
them to know...

doctor dan · Aug 8, 2010

Little off subject but I think that the Civil War series on PBS by Ken Burns should be watched because it shows not only the futility of war but the veiwpoint of the individual during war time and I think that is why some people collect what they do. If life started in Africa then we are all related. You can choose friends but not family.

Italian-wiseguy · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
Yeah, it is. The invaded other people's countries, with the intention of killing off whole populations for lebensraum, murdered and deported for slave labor millions to the Reich. If that isn't criminal, then what is?

Beside the fact that, as an italian, I find more comical then vaguely offensive the anglosaxon idea of Romans as the "bad guys"

(not that they were any better than other people... simply I imagine they did also something more than genocides and gladiatorial games... )

what you are describing is not the average german soldier, but Third Reich ideology.
Two different things, IMO.

By the way, besides the correct and human behavior of german soldiers I've heard remembered by witness, I'd like to remember- just cause mentioned "Mongols"- that common people here didn't fear german soldiers as much as they feared the so-called "mongolians", i.e. the members of the Wehrmacht Turkestan Division, coming from occupied territories in the USSR.
Those were the ones people was frightened by!

And you know? I'm not going to tell that every Bashkir or Kalmyk (or Georgian etc.) was a "criminal in uniforms".

And, what about my mother's aunt criminally shot by an allied plane?
Does this disqualify A2s and B3 collecting?

Ciao!!

Derek WC · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
Yeah, it is. The invaded other people's countries, with the intention of killing off whole populations for lebensraum, murdered and deported for slave labor millions to the Reich. If that isn't criminal, then what is?

Not even the Romans or Mongols did what the NAZIs did. The NAZIs committed genocide with a purpose. Hitler's war was a race war, he never hid his intentions and the German people signed on willingly. They knew it was wrong afterward an apologized for it. I'm cool with Germans, they took responsibility.

As far as collecting swag and uniforms and such- the next time a big militaria show is in your neck of the woods- just go hang out with the NAZIphiles. It won't take long before you start to see something weird or unsettling about them.

Put the stuff in museums, or whatever. I'm not advocating dumping all the NAZI stuff into a landfill, because people need to be reminded of what they did.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I needn't say more, besides that American's did not kill innocents with intent, sure it happened, but the Nazi's seemed to enjoy torturing and humiliating their Jewish captives. Sure, not all Nazi's were like that, but the majority was. I may be 15, but I've read many many books and watched many television shows about it.

I know what I'm talking about.

Also, the Fedora Lounge is not a place for political discussions, this thread should be closed.

Chas · Aug 8, 2010

To the NAZIphile I would say this - go visit Buchenwald or Auschwitz. If you come back and still think that the SS and The NAZIs were all cool and badass, honorable and all that, then fill your boots.

I wasn't referring to the Romans and Mongols as 'bad guys'. In fact, both their empires had very positive aspects to them. I was referring to their shared propensity with NAZI Germany for invading and conquering other peoples. NOTHING the NAZIs brought to the table was positive. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

re: The Romans and Mongols.

The Romans were absolutely without scruples; if you defied them you could expect them to arrive armed, a lot of people would die and a good portion would be sold off as slaves. Then they would rule you. What that usually meant was that you had to pay them taxes or labor for them. They didn't mess with your religion (unless your religion included human sacrifice, which upset them) and if you served in their army you could be granted citizenship. Generally, you were left alone.

The Mongols were pretty much the same; they would massacre cities and people who defied them; fight them and win, you're ok. Fight them and lose, your goose is cooked.

Very, very different from the NAZIs.

Italian-wiseguy · Aug 8, 2010

Derek WC said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I needn't say more, besides that American's did not kill innocents with intent, sure it happened, but the Nazi's seemed to enjoy torturing and humiliating their Jewish captives. Sure, not all Nazi's were like that, but the majority was. I may be 15, but I've read many many books and watched many television shows about it.

I know what I'm talking about.

Also, the Fedora Lounge is not a place for political discussions, this thread should be closed.

Well, I know what I'm talking about too, and I can't see how shooting on a profugees' column could be done without intent. Anyhow:
it still seems you confusing "nazis" and "germans".

Also: if you think we should not say our opinion on this, why did you post your opinion, in first place?
Which obviously you are completely entitled to.

Ciao!!

Italian-wiseguy · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
To the NAZIphile I would say this - go visit Buchenwald or Auschwitz. If you come back and still think that the SS and The NAZIs were all cool and badass, honorable and all that, then fill your boots.

I'd agree with you, given that you find a Naziphile here.

Ciao!!

Carnage · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
The British army never invaded a country, say, France with the intention of killing off all the French because they were subhuman.

We've slaughtered our fair share of Johnny Foreigner, for various reasons.

You say that people who are interested in Nazis should visit the camps. Yet you also subscribe to the view that all Germans in the military should have been killed. Can you not see the hypocrisy of your argument, and how your justifications are equally as bad as those of generations of military generals who have slaughtered their way through the ages?

StetsonHomburg · Aug 8, 2010

Chas said:
To the NAZIphile I would say this - go visit Buchenwald or Auschwitz. If you come back and still think that the SS and The NAZIs were all cool and badass, honorable and all that, then fill your boots.

Chas, I am interested in the history of the Heer, not the NSDAP or the SS...
And for your information I have seen Dachau (The first Concentration camp) and It was
very sad and it was terrible! But there is a difference between things like
the north africa campaign (The war without hate as know by other historians) and the SS-Death camps!

WW2WaltUSMC · Aug 8, 2010

The average German solider/sailor/airman in World War II was not a nazi. He was a German fighting for his country.

I personally don't collect or reenact German, but I can understand why someone would. Sharp uniforms, good weapons, and if you leave politics out of it, brilliant leadership.

I abhor what the Nazis did to other people as much as anyone, but to blame the average fighting man, the victim of conscription or government propaganda, for the atrocities committed is absurd. If you must vilify someone, vilify the SS, the SA, and the Gestapo. Vilify the true criminals in military uniforms, the military arms of the Nazi party.

Do I get upset when I see a Heer unit march by, backs straight, their leader singing a German marching song? No. In fact, I usually admire how authentic many of the German reenactors impressions are.

I do, however, get a bit irked when I see a group of "living historians" in black SS uniforms, half of them with tattoos of death's heads and lightning runes, seig heiling each other and talking about the glorious third reich, regardless of their authenticity levels.

There are certainly those in the historical community who are Nazi sympathizers. But that doesn't make them all bad. The important thing is that the true historians seperate themselves from the bad apples.

Tomasso · Aug 8, 2010

StetsonHomburg said:
I'd like to smack you over the head chas and knock some sence into you!

:eusa_doh: How old are you?

StetsonHomburg · Aug 8, 2010

WW2WaltUSMC said:
I do, however, get a bit irked when I see a group of "living historians" in black SS uniforms, half of them with tattoos of death's heads and lightning runes, seig heiling each other and talking about the glorious third reich, regardless of their authenticity levels..

And who wouldn't? I do aswell!

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