This generation of kids...

dhermann1 · Sep 2, 2010

But the thing is, they have shown that teenagers need more sleep, biologically. If they don't get it they can't learn. I think this is one area to cut the kids some slack. I remember my first year in college I had an 8 o'clock class, and I was always a total zombie for it. Didn't learn a thing, and having to get up that early wrecked me for the rest of the day.

Puzzicato · Sep 2, 2010

scottyrocks said:
People love to get on teachers' cases - oh, you work 6 hour days, and have all kinds of time off - thats a load of crap. There is so much that needs to go on behind the scenes and after hours that itd make your head spin.

One girl I used to go to church with disappointed her father by becoming a teacher. He was on her case a lot about how little work she did and how she should have become an accountant like him. So she got him to audit her working week. He discovered that, once preparation, marking, supervising lunch, coaching sports and helping with the musical were done, she had a longer working week than he did and earned less per hour than she would at Macdonalds. It made her point very well!

LocktownDog said:
Perhaps the teenage brain works on a different cycle because they refuse to go to bed at a decent hour? My boys stay up texting and playing around on their computers until 3am some nights. (and no, I don't allow that & they know it [huh] ) I never had access to such things when I was their age. My high school started at 7:30am and class went on until after 3. Our school had high grad rates and GPA averages.

I think a large part of the problem teens now isn't biological but social and environmental.

I've never been one for late bedtimes. Computers weren't introduced at my school until the year after I left. And I still remember not really being awake until after recess.

Feraud · Sep 2, 2010

I'll say it again.. put those kids to bed at a decent hour!

Miss Neecerie · Sep 2, 2010

Needing more sleep biologically does NOT = later start to the day.

I for most of my life have needed 9+ hours to feel ok.

I learned this early on, and guess what...I went to bed at 9 or 9:30 if my wake up call is at 6 am.

I biologically need more sleep. I -do- what it takes to make that amount of sleep possible, without whining to anyone that maybe they should adjust schedules etc....

LizzieMaine · Sep 2, 2010

Exactly. When I have one of the kids at work complaining about being soooooo tired -- and they don't even have to be to work till six pm! -- I ask them when they went to bed. And nine times out of ten it's "oh, we were up watching movies till 230 or 3" or whatever.

My mother once shut off the electricity to my room one night when I wouldn't shut the lights off and go to sleep. I got the message.

Undertow · Sep 2, 2010

reetpleat said:
As for protective gear, it is easy to say until it is your kid who dies in a head injury bike accident. Happens and happened every year.

As for encouraging kids to fight or smacking them, well, don't believe in teaching violence. These days, if an adult kits someone he goes to jail. You don't have to fight back. Why should we expect kids to deal with a problem on their own...

No, this is slippery slope logic. Saying all kids need protective gear because kids die in accidents is like saying all poor people should play the lottery because someone usually wins. I'm sorry if you know a child that died in an accident; that is a tragedy. And you could argue until you're blue in the face about what a bike helmet is supposed to do. But you're going to have to post some hard and reliable statistics of how many kids are saved by the bike helmets and knee pads, and wrist braces - and not by other factors such as low impact speeds, plastic bumpers, etc., before you're going to convince me.

Let me ask you this, what should a kid do if a bully is punching him? Cower in the corner and wait for the teacher to come save him? Day in and day out? Month after month? I hope not. If you're teaching your kid to fight, you're either a boxer or an idiot. But if you're teaching your kid to stand up for themselves when appropriate, then you're doing them a justice. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to be Caspar Milquetoast or Mike Tyson - that's why you teach them, that's the point of parenting.

As far as hitting your kids, sure, you shouldn't haul off and punch them because the garbage didn't get taken out. And you probably shouldn't hit them every time you're frustrated because their not listening. In fact, it shouldn't be the hitting that scares them - it's when you don't hit them, that they fear. lol And no, that's not to say hitting you're kids is right, but don't start in on the whole, "Hitting kids teaches kids to hit," or, "Hitting kids turns them into violent serial killers". Again, that's just a slippery slope alot of people slide down all too often.

CherryWry · Sep 2, 2010

When I was in college, I had a roommate whose mother wrote her papers for her. Appalling, but true. Mom wrote L's papers and faxed them to Kinko's (we didn't have email or internet on campus and most of us still used word processors) then L would retype the papers and hand them in.

It was more important to the mom that L got good grades than that she actually learned anything.

Even more appalling: several of us in the dorm tried to report the student (and her mother) to Academic Affairs and were told we didn't have sufficient evidence for them to take any action.

I work at a college...mostly in marketing, but I occasionally teach evening classes. Once in a while, a day student registers for one of my classes. It's interesting to see 9jn general how much less responsibility they take for themselves than the older students do---even the students aged 25 handle themselves much differently than the 18 to 22 year olds, because they've learned that their actions have consequences. If they don't write the paper, they get a failing grade. Mom or Dad can't fix that. I have had 19 year-old students do very well, but they tended to be different than most of the other students I encounter.

AmateisGal · Sep 2, 2010

Mid-fogey said:
I must occupy some sort of alternative universe. I find the school my daughter (she’s 11) attended has worked hard to give the children a quality education, working around the constraints they have to deal with. I have often been surprised by the advanced work they get, and the things she knows.

I have found her friends and classmates to be sweet , good natured children who are eager to please and sincerely want to do the right thing. I have seen behavior I didn’t approve of, but in every case I could clearly see the reasons, which in most cases were timeless.

I, too, am very blessed to have my daughter in a school that has gone above and beyond with her educational development. They spotted her learning disability (though it is technically not called that - she has a language issue where she doesn't quite interpret words correctly) and immediately started working with her. Same for her reading skills. They set up regular meetings with me and keep me abreast of her progress. I am so thankful for all of them.

AmateisGal · Sep 2, 2010

LocktownDog said:
I think a large part of the problem teens now isn't biological but social and environmental.

Exactly. I am betting that if it was possible to do a study on the teenage brain of 1942 vs. the teenage brain of 2010, they would have very different findings.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I think our brains adapt to what is around us - and I think the constant texting, tweeting, cell-phone talking, Facebooking, INSTANT world has affected our ability to concentrate and focus. I read an article that posited this and found it very interesting.

Here's an article on the subject: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2010-08-04-netbrain04_cv_N.htm

Geesie · Sep 2, 2010

LizzieMaine said:
Move the school day later so they won't have to get up early, and what do they do later on when they're working at a job and don't want to get up early? "Sorry, but I was up late last night. OK if I come in at noon?" "Oh, by all means. In fact, why don't you just stay right there in bed and we'll bring your work out to you."

Why are kids getting up early for a job? Aren't they supposed to be in school?
Unless you mean later when they're adults. Which is not relevant to the studies indicating hormonally induced changes during the teenage years that affect sleep patterns in teenagers not adults.

One of the most important things school should teach kids is that the world does not, in fact, revolve around them -- the most important thing for anyone to understand who hopes to survive in the workplace.

Yeah, who needs to actually learn the materials presented in school when the important lesson is :whip:

AmateisGal · Sep 2, 2010

Geesie said:
Why are kids getting up early for a job? Aren't they supposed to be in school?
Unless you mean later when they're adults. Which is not relevant to the studies indicating hormonally induced changes during the teenage years that affect sleep patterns in teenagers not adults.

I guess I don't see how teenagers survived in school for the past 60 years (and more) then if all these studies show that the teenage brain is so much different than the adult brain that we need to start accomodating that change.

I mean, I'm sure there IS a difference and I don't doubt the science of it - but how did we all survive school over the past 60+ years without the extra accomodation, then? It was hard for me to get up for school. Heck, it's STILL hard for me to get up for work. I'm one of those people that needs more than 8 hours of sleep,too. But I guess I don't expect the entire working world to start at 9 a.m. to accomodate me.

LizzieMaine · Sep 2, 2010

Geesie said:
Why are kids getting up early for a job? Aren't they supposed to be in school?
Unless you mean later when they're adults. Which is not relevant to the studies indicating hormonally induced changes during the teenage years that affect sleep patterns in teenagers not adults.

Yeah, who needs to actually learn the materials presented in school when the important lesson is :whip:

Well, gee, my senior year in high school I worked full time *and* got up early for class -- went straight from school to my job and then from my job to homework and bed. Somehow I managed to successfully negotiate the hormonally induced mental changes of adolescence without demanding that the schedule be adjusted in my favor.

And a little whip cracking when I was a kid taught me to crack the whip on myself when I got older. You can't learn that lesson too soon.

Amy Jeanne · Sep 2, 2010

My school was from 7:45 until 2:15. I always went to sleep around 2 or 3 -- I liked to watch David Letterman or MTV (that evil thing!) I had a TV with cable in my room and my own stereo, which were the cell phones and computers of my day lol

Now, I can't make it past midnight.

Undertow · Sep 2, 2010

LizzieMaine said:
And a little whip cracking when I was a kid taught me to crack the whip on myself when I got older. You can't learn that lesson too soon.

I know that! When the going gets tough, you'd better have brought a towel, because you should be using elbow grease!

Hard work is hard. [huh] And at some point, the kids - and the adult kids - are going to have to learn that. Why not get them started when they're young so they're that much better when they're older?

And to speak to what I'd said earlier, consider this: say you stopped from giving your kids a good smacking for mouthing back because you didn't want to teach them violence. But guess what happens when they mutter something under their breath to a guy named Gus who eats motorcycle parts for breakfast? It won't be your kid's violence that gets them in trouble; it'll be their lack of tact, discipline, judgement, etc., that gets them in trouble. These were things you could have taught them with one swift *whack*.

John in Covina · Sep 2, 2010

AmateisGal said:
I'm not an expert by any means, but I think our brains adapt to what is around us - and I think the constant texting, tweeting, cell-phone talking, Facebooking, INSTANT world has affected our ability to concentrate and focus. I read an article that posited this and found it very interesting.

Those of us that are older noticed that the ability to focus and concentrate for longer periods of time has suffered in some of the younger segments of society. As we move to sound bite news and quick flash images a lot of real and valuable information is simply lost, not transmitted and the hearer or viewer is not as informed. Their judgement may be impaired for lack of knowledge.

John in Covina · Sep 2, 2010

There was a radio commercial years ago about the teenage sleeping habits and motivation. A guy says: "I used to sleep a lot as a teen!" In the background you hear his mom saying, "If you don't get up you'll miss dinner!"

I heard that physical growth occurs while sleeping and since most teens are growing they do need a bit more sleep.

Geesie · Sep 2, 2010

AmateisGal said:
I guess I don't see how teenagers survived in school for the past 60 years (and more) then if all these studies show that the teenage brain is so much different than the adult brain that we need to start accomodating that change.

I mean, I'm sure there IS a difference and I don't doubt the science of it - but how did we all survive school over the past 60+ years without the extra accomodation, then? It was hard for me to get up for school. Heck, it's STILL hard for me to get up for work. I'm one of those people that needs more than 8 hours of sleep,too. But I guess I don't expect the entire working world to start at 9 a.m. to accomodate me.

God forbid that modern studies and better understanding of physiology make life better and learning more efficient for subsequent generations. The education system was perfected in 1945 and any changes are nonsense!

PrairieSunrise · Sep 2, 2010

Seriously, no on is suggesting that teenagers can function well by going to bed at midnight and get up full of pep and zip at 6:00 AM.

What they're saying is, teach the kids to take responsibility for their own well being and go to bed at 9:00 PM!

Most teenagers I know have tv's, dvd players, Computers and cell phones available at all hours of the day and night, and those are the leading culprits to late nights. If parents shut off access to them at 8:30-9:00 PM, their kids would get on to bed and gain plenty of decent sleep.

AmateisGal · Sep 3, 2010

Geesie said:
God forbid that modern studies and better understanding of physiology make life better and learning more efficient for subsequent generations. The education system was perfected in 1945 and any changes are nonsense!

Goodness! I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. I know teenagers need more sleep - I'm the stepmother of two teenage boys. What I'm simply saying is that if they need more sleep, then they need to go to bed at a decent hour. And I fought and fought with my boys to get them to bed - I know how hard it is to get them to bed at that hour. Funny thing is, one would always fall asleep at 9 p.m. and would be up by 6. The other would push his bedtime until after 10 p.m. and he'd always be hard to wake up in the morning. Every kid is different.

But as far as pushing the school hour to later in the day to accomodate teenagers...well, I'm not so sure I like the idea. Then again, every school district is different. The workday around here starts at 8 a.m. and goes to 5 p.m. I would have to put my daughter in before-school daycare for an hour if they tried to pass a later school hour here. So would lots and lots of other parents.

This doesn't mean that I think we should immediately shoot down any idea that helps improve our children's education so I hope no one jumps to that conclusion.

Geesie · Sep 3, 2010

Sorry. Didn't mean to be that harsh there.

And I do often forget that it's not just optimizing a schedule for kids' learning, but also needing to take working parents into account.

But I do think that the education professionals should be working on solutions especially if the body of evidence grows that suggests that it's not just more sleep needed during teen years but an actual shifting of the body's internal clock during those years which leads to a very inefficient morning functioning.

This generation of kids...

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