young people & hats

fmw said:

No, etiquette is not rules. It is custom and behavior. If you want to ingore the custom as some silly thing from the meaningless past, you can do that. Most people your age do. There are no etiquette police.

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And it changes. I don't ignore etiquette. I follow current etiquette. Now, if people want to revive dead customs from bygone eras, they can do so. It's not etiquette if people don't follow it. Hat tipping, doffing, internal corridors vs streets, some offices count, some don't, elevators count as indoors but only if a lady enters, stores are one thing, some restaurants are another - these aren't rules that get taught to anyone, and if they were, there probably wouldn't be a Fedora Lounge, because fedoras wouldn't be so rare as to be thought of for such devotion. We celebrate the culture of the Golden Era because it's a different culture than the current, and because many think it's better. It isn't our culture now, and it's behavior norms no longer apply. I'm young, 32, no denying that. But, I am polite. I'm not polite as Richard the Lionhearted would see it. Julius Caesar might not find me polite. George Washington wouldn't. Humphry Bogart wouldn't. But, my doctor thinks I'm polite. My friends and their parents think I'm polite. My town hall elected officials think I'm polite as did my teachers. I follow custom - just modern custom. I pray when I've got another 32 years on me, that I still follow modern culture, rather than cling to a past that no longer holds real meaning in day to day life, but I'm sure I'll be saying "them dern kids these days" like it's customary to do. Some customs never change.

Every thing I need to know I learned in kindergarden. A book by Robert Fulgham.

Ive always been told that number of rules of etiquette go back as far as medieval times when men, knights, were so heavily encased that the exposure of one's face signalled who and what you were - friend or foe. This trickled down over the years to include all head gear.

The same thing has been said for the common handshake greeting which evolved from from the raising of a hand, palm forward. It showed that you were not armed. Most people are (were?) right handed. You shake hands with your right hand, exposing it as weaponless.

I dont know how accurate it is but it makes sense and might offer some clarity as to where some customs come from.

Things such as 'please' and 'thank you' are becoming a lost art. Not everywhere, but there are definitely pockets where it is so rare that when I hear it I am actually startled. And then I look around a particular neighborhood and I can see why and how habits are lost and/or changed. When elders no longer do them, children have no exposure to them.

JJR512 said:

Here is my take on hat etiquette.

Suppose you take a man and a woman who have absolutely zero knowledge about hat etiquette. Dress the woman in a nice dress, dress the man in a nice suit, and put a nice fedora on his head. Now sit them down and have them share a meal together. Keep in mind that neither one knows the slightest thing about hat etiquette. Is it going to occur to the man to take his hat off? Why should it? If it doesn't occur to him to take it off, is it going to occur to the woman to be offended? Why should it?

In practical terms, what difference does it make if a person wears a hat while eating? Don't just say it's wrong because that's what you were taught. Why is it wrong?

The same questions could be asked about any bit of hat etiquette. Take the national anthem for another example. How does it show respect to remove the hat while it's playing? Again, "because that's what I was taught" is not an applicable answer. It does not answer the question. Can you produce scientific medical research that proves a human body cares more about something when there is no hat atop that body's head?

When it comes down to it, there is no real or practical need for hat etiquette. The only real answer to any of these questions actually is "because that's what I was taught". It doesn't really answer the questions, but it's the only possible answer.

This is all just something to think about. Personally, I try to abide by hat etiquette, because for me, it's actually a way of rebelling. Since relatively few people care about, or know of, these old rules, actually following them feels like "going against the grain" to me.

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This is very true. :arated:

When you sum it up, basically any etiquette or social norm that a person follows has been taught to them from somewhere. Whether it is a verbal instruction given to them by their parents, or something have have observed second hand from a complete stranger, they picked up on it somewhere throughout their life, and most importantly, their childhood years.

When things get interesting is when that same person experiences polar opposites to beliefs from different people throughout their life. If they have one group that is telling them to remove their hat (i.e. their parents), and another group that is indifferent or giving positive reinforcement for them NOT to remove their hat (i.e. friends/peers), they are going to form their own opinion based probably on a mixture of their own beliefs, and the opinion of the group they "respect" or relate to the most. Somewhere in their mind, they are creating a list of which groups and beliefs are most important, and which are least important.

Of course it is a sign of confidence and independence when a person decides to follow, or not follow, a social norm because they feel it is the right thing to do for them.

scionpi2005 said:

this is very true. :arated:

When you sum it up, basically any etiquette or social norm that a person follows has been taught to them from somewhere. Whether it is a verbal instruction given to them by their parents, or something have have observed second hand from a complete stranger, they picked up on it somewhere throughout their life, and most importantly, their childhood years.

When things get interesting is when that same person experiences polar opposites to beliefs from different people throughout their life. If they have one group that is telling them to remove their hat (i.e. Their parents), and another group that is indifferent or giving positive reinforcement for them not to remove their hat (i.e. Friends/peers), they are going to form their own opinion based probably on a mixture of their own beliefs, and the opinion of the group they "respect" or relate to the most. Somewhere in their mind, they are creating a list of which groups and beliefs are most important, and which are least important.

Of course it is a sign of confidence and independence when a person decides to follow, or not follow, a social norm because they feel it is the right thing to do for them.

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well said

ScionPI2005 said:

Of course it is a sign of confidence and independence when a person decides to follow, or not follow, a social norm because they feel it is the right thing to do for them.

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Boy, I couldn't disagree with that base assumption more. Using your logic we could say that car thieves are just showing their "confidence and independence" by refusing to respect the "social norm" of other people's property rights! Your entire assumption is based on faulty reasoning. Additionally, it wouldn't be a RULE of etiquette or a social norm if everyone simply decided they would do what ever they want to do regardless. This is the way to anarchy and not an ordered, civilized society.

The FACT is that some people ignore social norms simply because they are jerks and not because they are some laudable personality. Some people ignore etiquette because they are arrogant jerks that think they are better, smarter, and more important than everyone around them and should be allowed to make up their own rules as they look down their noses at all peons around them. (Think celebrities that think they are better than all us "little people" because they surround themselves with brain-dead yes men and hangers on that love the celeb for their money)

On the other hand, some people were brought up by ignoramuses and aren't even informed about those societal norms and rules of etiquette, so they are not entirely at fault. If you aren't even aware you are breaking rules, it's a bit hard to be blamed entirely for it. (Tho I still say it is incumbent on the individual to take the initiative to learn the rules of society on his own without necessarily being force fed it. That is part of being a responsible citizen)

Anyway, this whole assumption that some people break etiquette and ignore social norms because they are some sort of wonderful example of a free spirit is simply not the proper way to see it, in my opinion.

Mobile Vulgus said:

Boy, I couldn't disagree with that base assumption more. Using your logic we could say that car thieves are just showing their "confidence and independence" by refusing to respect the "social norm" of other people's property rights! Your entire assumption is based on faulty reasoning. Additionally, it wouldn't be a RULE of etiquette or a social norm if everyone simply decided they would do what ever they want to do regardless. This is the way to anarchy and not an ordered, civilized society.

The FACT is that some people ignore social norms simply because they are jerks and not because they are some laudable personality. Some people ignore etiquette because they are arrogant jerks that think they are better, smarter, and more important than everyone around them and should be allowed to make up their own rules as they look down their noses at all peons around them. (Think celebrities that think they are better than all us "little people" because they surround themselves with brain-dead yes men and hangers on that love the celeb for their money)

On the other hand, some people were brought up by ignoramuses and aren't even informed about those societal norms and rules of etiquette, so they are not entirely at fault. If you aren't even aware you are breaking rules, it's a bit hard to be blamed entirely for it. (Tho I still say it is incumbent on the individual to take the initiative to learn the rules of society on his own without necessarily being force fed it. That is part of being a responsible citizen)

Anyway, this whole assumption that some people break etiquette and ignore social norms because they are some sort of wonderful example of a free spirit is simply not the proper way to see it, in my opinion.

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Very well said, MV.

Mobile Vulgus said:

Boy, I couldn't disagree with that base assumption more. Using your logic we could say that car thieves are just showing their "confidence and independence" by refusing to respect the "social norm" of other people's property rights! Your entire assumption is based on faulty reasoning. Additionally, it wouldn't be a RULE of etiquette or a social norm if everyone simply decided they would do what ever they want to do regardless. This is the way to anarchy and not an ordered, civilized society.

The FACT is that some people ignore social norms simply because they are jerks and not because they are some laudable personality. Some people ignore etiquette because they are arrogant jerks that think they are better, smarter, and more important than everyone around them and should be allowed to make up their own rules as they look down their noses at all peons around them. (Think celebrities that think they are better than all us "little people" because they surround themselves with brain-dead yes men and hangers on that love the celeb for their money)

On the other hand, some people were brought up by ignoramuses and aren't even informed about those societal norms and rules of etiquette, so they are not entirely at fault. If you aren't even aware you are breaking rules, it's a bit hard to be blamed entirely for it. (Tho I still say it is incumbent on the individual to take the initiative to learn the rules of society on his own without necessarily being force fed it. That is part of being a responsible citizen)

Anyway, this whole assumption that some people break etiquette and ignore social norms because they are some sort of wonderful example of a free spirit is simply not the proper way to see it, in my opinion.

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Are there no societal norms you refuse to follow? I'm not talking about the societal norms you grew up with. They don't matter. If you've ever said, "Things were better the way I learned them," then you're the guy you rant against. What's polite now and what was polite then are different, and that's okay. I've seen a lot of posts on TFL regarding people proud of the fact that they don't do as society does. Are they arrogant jerks that think they are better, smarter, and more important than everyone else? You see, no one set of cultural values is superior to another. Societal norms are just that - norms. If you're not "norm", you're apparently everything you just said, and well, I don't think I could bring myself to label anyone here such, not for deciding they're not going to follow a norm they disagree with just because it's how things are done. Aren't we all free spirits trying to do things a little differently?

Mobile Vulgus said:

Boy, I couldn't disagree with that base assumption more. Using your logic we could say that car thieves are just showing their "confidence and independence" by refusing to respect the "social norm" of other people's property rights! Your entire assumption is based on faulty reasoning. Additionally, it wouldn't be a RULE of etiquette or a social norm if everyone simply decided they would do what ever they want to do regardless. This is the way to anarchy and not an ordered, civilized society.

The FACT is that some people ignore social norms simply because they are jerks and not because they are some laudable personality. Some people ignore etiquette because they are arrogant jerks that think they are better, smarter, and more important than everyone around them and should be allowed to make up their own rules as they look down their noses at all peons around them. (Think celebrities that think they are better than all us "little people" because they surround themselves with brain-dead yes men and hangers on that love the celeb for their money)

On the other hand, some people were brought up by ignoramuses and aren't even informed about those societal norms and rules of etiquette, so they are not entirely at fault. If you aren't even aware you are breaking rules, it's a bit hard to be blamed entirely for it. (Tho I still say it is incumbent on the individual to take the initiative to learn the rules of society on his own without necessarily being force fed it. That is part of being a responsible citizen)

Anyway, this whole assumption that some people break etiquette and ignore social norms because they are some sort of wonderful example of a free spirit is simply not the proper way to see it, in my opinion.

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Have to say I think you're mixing apples and hand grenades when you compare a lack of following etiquette to car theft (or any theft). While one is about general respect and following societal norms that show same, the other is about far more offensive behavior and in fact criminal (as defined in written statue and law), as well as "common sense" (taking something that belongs to someone else is far more onerous than simply "being disrespectful"). Not in the same league IMO, or even to be paired in the same conversation.

That said, I do agree with your premise that it is incumbent upon the individual to discern what are in fact the standard or societal norms and to voluntarily follow these (because it is an accepted practice by most I think is a reasonable standard), with the caveat that what is "accepted practice" does not unduly harm or put out the individual.

I also could not agree more though, with the premise stated earlier in this thread, that these "rules of hat etiquette" are so unclear at this point in history, that even here on TFL where we have a large number who wish to or purport to follow these rules, there is still a lack of consensus on many points as to what exactly is the proper etiquette. This probably would have been debatable even "back in the day" (no doubt to a lessor degree), but since the demise of the hat, and with it's current resurgence, there really are no more "societal norms" or what is "common practice" with a few exceptions (the National Anthem being one I think most are aware of, even in the back of their minds).

First and foremost importance IMO, is that the individual has the willingness and even desire to be respectful. I think beyond that, time and practice will sort it out, and as hat wearing becomes more common (I do believe it is in a resurgence), socially acceptable norms and common practices will again become defined and become more generalized knowledge.

Now on to a specific question if I may, asked and yet not answered to a point where I can even make up my own mind , I often meet a friend for dinner at a local restaurant that has a bar. We sit at the bar and eat there. Often (but not always) there are no spare seats for me to place may hat on (no rack of course). If at a table or booth, for me there would be no question, I would remove my hat (generally not on entering, but on being seated, is this "wrong"?).

Sitting at the bar, I seem to think is akin to eating a a "counter", where the "old rules" say I needn't remove my hat. Does this mesh with what might be considered the "old school rules"? (Wonder if we can get a consensus on even this one specific point? ).

I do feel it's common sense to take your hat off during the National Anthem, especially when you look around you and see countless people doing the same, or to take your hat off in church. This is the most basic of manners. It should be common sense if it's not. But then again, common sense is so rare these days.

Pompidou said:

Common sense is not touching a hot stove. Taking your hat off in some places but not others, during some events but not others - that's just a list of completely arbitrary rules people came up with centuries ago for various reasons, some practical at the time and some purely ceremonial, that didn't have to make sense then, but certainly don't have to make sense when hat rules died with hat use. That's all etiquette is - a list of arbitrary rules from bygone eras with needs we no longer have, that we keep, not because they really matter in some way, but because people decided these random X gestures at Y times are what people in Z culture should do. It even varies by culture, totally throwing a wrench in the idea that etiquette serves any higher practical purpose than letting your company know that they're not alone.

Such rituals taken alone, would be totally silly if only one person did them. When everyone does them, that's different. How many people do them today? Out of how many people? It's not totally silly yet, but it's approaching silliness fast. I would say the only situations where taking a hat off is more than just a gesture would be something perhaps like a crowded theater if you're actually blocking someone's view. The national anthem - beyond any idea of common sense - technically has various hat rules based on who you are and what hat you're wearing. I believe active servicemen are supposed to leave the hat on but salute, for example. It's no longer common sense when you can look around the crowd at a function and see different people doing totally opposite things and both being right.

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In my opinion it has, there isn't hat racks, or hat checks, or other such things as there used to be.

fmw said:

No it hasn't. Not even a little. What has changed is the attitudes.

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panamaJess said:

Do you like to see young people contributing to the fedora revitalization happening worldwide? Even if they don't know a thing about hats or hat manners? How important / possible is it to educate them on hat etiquette?

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Young people wearing fedoras contributes if it means decent fedoras at reasonable prices are widely available again. Since I wouldn't be caught dead in a plaid stingy brim, if that's what comes out of this current trend then it's irrelevant to me and hardly a revitalization.

As far as hat etiquette in concerned, let's teach the young not to crap in their own or anyone else's nests first. Getting robbed by a gangbanger who tips his hat isn't much improvement.

... well, Pompidu in my posts I was really focusing on society as reflected in etiquette and behavior. If we expand it to a discussion of "societal norms" in general we get an awfully large field of things to talk about. It is currently a "societal norm" to watch reality TV shows. I have never ever watched one and refuse to do so because they are STUPID. I also hate the so-called professional sports. In those instances I do not observe societal norms. But what does that mean in the long run to society? Nothing, really.

But, you are ignoring all the finer distinctions I laid out in my previous posts. You are glossing over that I said people CAN be seen as arrogant or are SOMETIMES so when they ignore custom and social mores. I am not saying that people who ignore social customs are all arrogant. I said some people see them that way and sometimes they are right to see them that way. I also said that sometimes when people don't observe social norms it is because they aren't aware of them (and so can't exactly be blamed for breaking the rules). I also said that these social norms are not just arbitrary rules made by some Nazi to keep people down. They are rules that help keep our society civilized and ordered.

I want to focus on that last bit, for a second. Your opinion seems to be geared toward assuming that societal rules and etiquette are "arbitrary" and are just some set of ideas that some mean, old, stick-in-the-mud made to keep free spirits like yourself oppressed. This is shortsighted and a bit immature reasoning. As I said in the previous posts there are legitimate reasons that these rules of etiquette exist and they are rarely "arbitrary."

In the end I am saying that there needs to be a balance between making your own way in the world and observing useful and worthy customs of our forefathers. Are ALL customs and rules of the past good? Of course not. Are all of them bad... equally not.

Listen, the fact is it is a bit arrogant to assume that YOU are smarter than everyone that has ever come before you and YOU are smart enough to create your whole world over again with no mind to the past. (And by you I mean the new generation in general not just you.) You simply cannot have a stable society if it is wholly remaking itself every generation. You cannot have a rule of law, you cannot have a stable economy, you'll have no national identity... in short, the past is useful and necessary, not an oppression. You know the old saying, "those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

As a side note, let me say this... It is kind of amusing for someone to say they wear fedoras to be "different" and to be a "free spirit" because they refuse to do what other people have done. After all fedoras have been around for over 100 years at this point. They are hardly "different" and "new"!

They're unique now. Now is all that matters to me - well now and later. They've got the allure of a charismatic past, and the unique individuality of a new trend, and I love it. You really get the best of both worlds with fedora type hats. You don't look like a clown, but you don't look like anyone else you pass on the street. I used to wonder what I'd do in the event everyone else started wearing them again like in decades past. It's a real possibility. So, I went ahead and had a one of a kind hat made by Art Fawcett that can't really be pigeonholed into any particular class of hat, and I had it made bright red. It's my hat. Taking the best of the past and making it your own is the best way to go, I think. I was telling someone else in another thread that I'm even pondering the idea of hat doffing and tipping - just for the hell of it. I think it could really give off an air of showmanship you can't get just leaving it on your head, and well, it'd impress anyone that used to have to do so. Win/win. I'll just have to work at it till I get to the point I can do so without laughing at myself.

I wish that fedoras would be worn by everybody. I like to fit in, but I love my style and am not willing to sacrifice it. It would just be nice to not necessarily just be the eccentric guy who's charmingly outdated.

Anything that is new-new or very old (passe) can be seen as out of the mainstream, and therefore avant-garde, so to speak and can be used as a symbol of going against the grain. 'Different' is the key here, not 'new.'

AtomicEraTom said:

I do feel it's common sense to take your hat off during the National Anthem, especially when you look around you and see countless people doing the same, or to take your hat off in church. This is the most basic of manners. It should be common sense if it's not. But then again, common sense is so rare these days.




In my opinion it has, there isn't hat racks, or hat checks, or other such things as there used to be.

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I agree about the national anthem and church. At the Christmas Parade this year, when the flag was carried by, I reminded the people with me to place their hands over their hearts....we were the only ones in sight doing so. I was shocked.

Mobile Vulgus said:

Boy, I couldn't disagree with that base assumption more. Using your logic we could say that car thieves are just showing their "confidence and independence" by refusing to respect the "social norm" of other people's property rights! Your entire assumption is based on faulty reasoning. Additionally, it wouldn't be a RULE of etiquette or a social norm if everyone simply decided they would do what ever they want to do regardless. This is the way to anarchy and not an ordered, civilized society.

The FACT is that some people ignore social norms simply because they are jerks and not because they are some laudable personality. Some people ignore etiquette because they are arrogant jerks that think they are better, smarter, and more important than everyone around them and should be allowed to make up their own rules as they look down their noses at all peons around them. (Think celebrities that think they are better than all us "little people" because they surround themselves with brain-dead yes men and hangers on that love the celeb for their money)

On the other hand, some people were brought up by ignoramuses and aren't even informed about those societal norms and rules of etiquette, so they are not entirely at fault. If you aren't even aware you are breaking rules, it's a bit hard to be blamed entirely for it. (Tho I still say it is incumbent on the individual to take the initiative to learn the rules of society on his own without necessarily being force fed it. That is part of being a responsible citizen)

Anyway, this whole assumption that some people break etiquette and ignore social norms because they are some sort of wonderful example of a free spirit is simply not the proper way to see it, in my opinion.

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Perhaps it wasn't clear in my post that I was only speaking of etiquette and manners. In my post, I was speaking only of ways in which a person is taught, or not taught, how to act and behave on a MUCH simpler, and not criminal level.

In classical sociological theory, there are two kinds of crimes. Mala En Se crimes are ones which are considered wrong universally. Generally speaking, a car theft (or larceny in general) would be considered a Mala En Se crime.

The second type of crime is Mala Prohibita which are deemed criminal, or socially wrong, by the individual society, and are not necessarily deemed wrong universally.

I wouldn't even classify etiquette, or lack thereof, as either of these above types. In my comment, I believe that an individual who takes the teachings, persuasions, and advice from others (for example, regarding what to wear and what not to wear, and where to wear it) and then analyzes it with their own beliefs and feelings and identity is only taking the next step to becoming an independent and confident person.

Now, the vast majority of us would probably agree that if a person refused to wear dress slacks and a shirt and tie for work when that is the required dress code, their choice to lose their job over wearing what they want to wear to work would be foolhardy. However, I don't think we can deny that that person has made an independent decision based on their beliefs. The majority may believe that this person's priorities are out of whack, but in the end, it would be that person's choice.

It is true that some ignore social etiquette just to be jerks, yet for my example, I was speaking mainly of the topic of this post: young people and hats. I doubt that the vast majority of young people (let's say teens to early twenties) are ignoring the old rule of taking their hat off inside just to spite society and bite their thumb at it. More than likely, almost their entire social network of friends, and probably even parents, haven't taught them that rule in the first place; probably because they aren't too familiar with it themselves, and don't see it enforced and practiced in this modern day.

Now, I personally follow the hat etiquette rule and take my hat off in a restaurant when sitting down to eat. That is unless I honestly cannot find a place to put it where it is safe, in which case I let those I'm eating with know I would take it off if I could find a place for it. There is also a part of me that feels surprise and shock when I see so many people in a restaurant eating with their hats on; even generations much older than I am. Still, in this day and age, I would not call them ignoramuses. For better or for worse, it would appear that those that follow hat etiquette are in the minority now.

For that reason, I question whether the rule of hat etiquette could even be considered a rule of society anymore. Yes, it is in our history, and back in the Golden Era of hats, everyone followed the rule, or else they were criticized and perhaps ostracized. Even now, the rule still echoes in our history, but it is not as widely followed, nor enforced. I will continue to take off my hat indoors and when eating with others, but I won't except everyone else to do it. If someone I know does, I will admire them for it, but I will not think less of them if they choose not to remove their hat, or do not think its important. In this day and age, there are more current behaviors and personal actions on which to deem someone as having integrity, or not.

I think we agree pretty much, scion.
Have a Merry Christmas.

Pompidu,

I'll just have to work at it till I get to the point I can do so without laughing at myself.

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I hope you never get past laughing at yourself. I try to laugh at myself as much as possible, ya know?
Have a Merry Christmas...

And a Merry Christmas to all Loungers.