Whatever happened to "coat and tie required"?

Drappa · Jan 26, 2011

I forgot to add that I think it is a result of the various service cultures in North America vs Europe. North Americans for the most part have excellent customer service in comparison to most of Europe. Waiters and sales people seem friendly and somewhat enthusiastic and try to bend over backwards to get their customers' custom.
Here I sometimes feel like I owe them the way one gets treated or ignored.
I think this is what makes it easier for the pandemic as you call it to take place in North America, because there the customer seems to be more important, so if they turn up in jogging pants at a 5* restaurant, so be it.

Tomasso · Jan 26, 2011

Drappa said:
I lived in North America for 7 years, and saw things I have never seen anywhere else, not before I went and not since.

[video=youtube;4EJSkJlh_fg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EJSkJlh_fg[/video]

MissMittens · Jan 26, 2011

Drappa said:
I wouldn't say it knows no borders or that it happens to the same extent everywhere. I lived in North America for 7 years, and saw things I have never seen anywhere else, not before I went and not since. Stusents turning up to breakfast at University in bathrobes or doing third year presentations in pyjamas (and I mean proper pj's).

You're absolutely right, and I don't care who hates me for saying so :lol:

Throughout Europe, Americans are known as the most poorly dressed. Didn't used to be that way though

MissMittens · Jan 26, 2011

Drappa said:
I forgot to add that I think it is a result of the various service cultures in North America vs Europe. North Americans for the most part have excellent customer service in comparison to most of Europe. Waiters and sales people seem friendly and somewhat enthusiastic and try to bend over backwards to get their customers' custom.
Here I sometimes feel like I owe them the way one gets treated or ignored.
I think this is what makes it easier for the pandemic as you call it to take place in North America, because there the customer seems to be more important, so if they turn up in jogging pants at a 5* restaurant, so be it.

God forbid you upset a waiter in Madrid, for example. You're likely to have your food spat upon before being served to you, etc. The customer is always wrong in Europe.

Also, completely different to the U.S, if you bought a coat and tie from a store, and didn't like it, you own it. No one takes it back and asks for an exchange or their money back.

Drappa · Jan 26, 2011

roadierfl said:
God forbid you upset a waiter in Madrid, for example. You're likely to have your food spat upon before being served to you, etc. The customer is always wrong in Europe.

Also, completely different to the U.S, if you bought a coat and tie from a store, and didn't like it, you own it. No one takes it back and asks for an exchange or their money back.

Yes, absolutely. When I first returned from Canada and came to the UK my friends took me to a restaurant, and I asked one question about the dairy content in the food and got such a rude reply that I started to well up. It was a complete culture shock.
It is such a hassle to return things here that most of the time we don't even bother, unless it's grave. Nevermind returning cold or bad food...

John in Covina · Jan 26, 2011

I think that as restaurants are under a great pressure to be profitable for some of them the profit margins are really slim. The thing is that the color of the money from the shorts and flipflops crowd is the same as the jacket and tie crowd. As such they want to be more inclusive than exclusive.

If it is a big place they could have an area or room that requires reservations with that jacket and tie?

Dan'l · Jan 26, 2011

Some time the late 90's a restauraunt opened here in town that required a coat and tie. They even had coats and ties for guys to wear while dining if they showed up without. That lasted for a number of years but then they decided that everyone was welcome (see John in Covina's post above) and from there the place was only open a couple of years and then closed. The new restaurant in that location has made it clear from the start that it's casual dining. Of course the few times I've been there it's been in suit and tie.
A few years ago a nice, vintage looking, restaurant opened and even had valet parking. No one used the valet but the place is still opened and those who show up in more casual dress are seated in the bar area. So, they seem to be trying to accomodate everyone's money

1961MJS · Jan 26, 2011

Hi

I've always been amused to see a prom couple in Outback Steak House (Applebee's, Chili's, etc) setting next to the family wearing wife beaters, cut offs, and flip flops. It makes be wonder why someone in a tux would go there. It also makes me wonder why you rented a tux. It used to be that casual meant an informal suit, now it means that your jammies bottoms don't clash much with the t-shirt you're wearing.

But I'm not bitter!!

Dan'l · Jan 26, 2011

1961MJS said:
Hi

I've always been amused to see a prom couple in Outback Steak House (Applebee's, Chili's, etc) setting next to the family wearing wife beaters, cut offs, and flip flops. It makes be wonder why someone in a tux would go there. It also makes me wonder why you rented a tux. It used to be that casual meant an informal suit, now it means that your jammies bottoms don't clash much with the t-shirt you're wearing.

But I'm not bitter!!

lol After renting the tux they can't afford anything other than Applebee's...

You are so right about the jammie bottoms and t-shirt, which I do wear... when I'm asleep.

1961MJS · Jan 26, 2011

Reading this made me remember my 1983 Spring Break trip to Chicago. We were on Rush Street and in line for a bar. Basically the bouncer's used the term "dress code" to let in who they wanted in, and to exclude those that they didn't want in. Personally, the who was dependent on how busy they were, and which of their 6 brain cells were currently in contact with each other creating "thought".

I was allowed in wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and cowboy boots. One of the locals wasn't let in wearing the same t-shirt and jeans, but Converse Tennis shoes (against the rules). Two local black dudes wearing three piece suits, and cowboy boots weren't let in because of the boots... The fact the the two guys in three piece suits were looking at me, and at my cowboy boots wasn't relevant to the bouncers. I WONDER why they REALLY didn't let them in?

Later

Mike in Seattle · Jan 27, 2011

John in Covina said:
I think that as restaurants are under a great pressure to be profitable for some of them the profit margins are really slim. The thing is that the color of the money from the shorts and flipflops crowd is the same as the jacket and tie crowd.

I suppose it sort of goes hand-in-hand with the dumbing down of America and the "me generation." My child may be a holy terror and completely uncouth, but isn't it wonderful he's so free and open and independent? Well, independent until he hits his 20s and has dropped out of school, fathered a couple illegitimate children, and is back home living with dear old Mom & Dad during their golden years, playing Nintendo night and day surrounded by empty potato chip bags and crushed beer cans.

But I think the nicer restaurants find they relax their standards to get more money in the door, and then they have begin a spiral downward to lower their prices to keep that volume and calibre of "clientelle" coming back for more, all the while alienating their long-term, higher paying customers from coming back because they don't want to be eating around the dirty cut-offs and flip-flop set.

I'm sure I posted earlier (like a year ago or more) on in this post, or a very similar one here on the Lounge, about what used to be a very nice, classy restaurant to go to for a truly outstanding brunch for special occassions. They cut back the "suit and tie" requirement to "business casual" which they still uphold, but frankly, what I wear to clean out the garage and do heavy gardening is apparently considered "business casual" these days. Half those there for brunch look worse than you'd see in MacDonald's for breakfast. But if I'm paying $30 for brunch, I really don't want to see someone at the next table in dirty, greasy workboots, ripped cargo shorts and a well-worn tank top advertising moustach rides for a nickel (Well...at least inflation has apparently not hit that industry in the last 35 years...) and the little missus in plastic flip flops, short-shorts stretched beyond reason and "the girls" about to pop out over the top of the too small camisole.

caeman · Jan 27, 2011

The only places I have been to that required a more formal dress code was two different country clubs I have visited. Fancy places, filled with people with a lot of money.

1961MJS · Jan 27, 2011

Mike in Seattle said:
...But if I'm paying $30 for brunch, I really don't want to see someone at the next table in dirty, greasy workboots, ripped cargo shorts and a well-worn tank top advertising moustach rides for a nickel (Well...at least inflation has apparently not hit that industry in the last 35 years...) and the little missus in plastic flip flops, short-shorts stretched beyond reason and "the girls" about to pop out over the top of the too small camisole.

Sighhhhhhhh... Isn't it nice that they can both still fit into their wedding attire 10 years after the wedding.

Later

caeman · Jan 27, 2011

1961MJS said:
Sighhhhhhhh... Isn't it nice that they can both still fit into their wedding attire 10 years after the wedding.

Later

I can.

I did give in on my preference for getting married in my blue jeans, I wore a pair of dockers along with an plain Oxford. Hey, it was my special day, too!

John in Covina · Jan 27, 2011

The main point for the last 30 years is the concept that no one should ever have to feel inconvenienced.

If it is inconvenient for you , then your rights have been compromised and you immediately know (with righteous indignation) you need not be hindered in any way by anyone, anything, any rule, any tradition, any conventional concepts---you know the rest.

JimWagner · Jan 27, 2011

John in Covina said:
The main point for the last 30 years is the concept that no one should ever have to feel inconvenienced.

If it is inconvenient for you , then your rights have been compromised and you immediately know (with righteous indignation) you need not be hindered in any way by anyone, anything, any rule, any tradition, any conventional concepts---you know the rest.

Or perhaps it's that people are refusing to let others impose their arbitrary demands on them.

That sword has two edges, doesn't it?

I think if you want to dress up when you go out, then by all means do so. I certainly do. But my standards are just that - mine.

Drappa · Jan 27, 2011

Well said! :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

JimWagner said:
Or perhaps it's that people are refusing to let others impose their arbitrary demands on them.

That sword has two edges, doesn't it?

I think if you want to dress up when you go out, then by all means do so. I certainly do. But my standards are just that - mine.

Tango Yankee · Jan 27, 2011

JimWagner said:
Or perhaps it's that people are refusing to let others impose their arbitrary demands on them.

That sword has two edges, doesn't it?

I think if you want to dress up when you go out, then by all means do so. I certainly do. But my standards are just that - mine.

Perhaps, but shouldn't a line be drawn somewhere? There are those who feel that being expected to bathe regularly and launder their clothing once in a while is an arbitrary demand (not going into the issue of the homeless here--I mean those who have the facilities but chose not to use them) that they shouldn't have to adhere to.

What we are devolving into is a culture with no standards whatsoever, simply because of the attitude "you ain't the boss of me!" and the fear of insulting someone by enforcing standards. I dread the day when "no shirt, no shoes, no service" goes the way of "Coat and Tie Required."

Cheers,
Tom

JimWagner · Jan 27, 2011

Consider this. If "society" gets to dictate what one wears, then right now we are in the minority here. "Society" is more likely to dictate that we all wear our pants down around our butts and baseball caps cranked 90 degrees to port instead of suits. Beware of unintended consequences.

martinsantos · Jan 27, 2011

True!!!

JimWagner said:
Consider this. If "society" gets to dictate what one wears, then right now we are in the minority here. "Society" is more likely to dictate that we all wear our pants down around our butts and baseball caps cranked 90 degrees to port instead of suits. Beware of unintended consequences.

Whatever happened to "coat and tie required"?

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