Are notch lapel dinner jackets "correct"?

Vladimir Berkov · Mar 18, 2010

Ed13 said:
As far as notch lapels, it may be acceptable with some, it is not acceptable with all. If you are an artist or Hollywood type then go crazy. If not, wearer beware. The clothing snobs will be watching.

But who are the clothing snobs?

We are at a point in history much like the time in the late 19th and early 20th century when the dinner suit/tuxedo usurped the tailcoat. In both cases the standard eveningwear had become entirely static, the exact requirements agreed-upon with virtually no room for deviation. In comes the newcomer, and a new period of experimentation ensues. The old standard eventually dies out or becomes so pigeonholed that it becomes mere costume.

The true dinner suit/tuxedo is today what the tailcoat was in 1920. A garment still worn, still correct, but rapidly being lost in a sea of derivative informality. The only difference is that unlike 1920, today there is no successor to the tuxedo. The only things agreed upon seem to be that it involves a black coat, black trousers and black tie. All else can be variable.

In such a state, what real snobbishness can exist which could possibly denigrate the wearing of a traditional notch-lapeled dinner suit?

Edward · Mar 18, 2010

Good point, Vladimir.... Is, perhaps, black tie on the verge of being pigeonholed as a 'costume' for a particular occasion - much like morning dress has become 'wedding wear'? ill it be 'Oscar party wear' in future.... or even, in the US, simply "wedding wear"?

Fletch · Mar 18, 2010

Surprised this discussion has had such staying power when looking thru a few 1920s photos would suggest that the notch lapel had a pretty good following at the time. Sometimes an ounce of research is worth a pound of advice.

Le Garçon au Foulard Vert · Jan 28, 2011

Edward said:
Good point, Vladimir.... Is, perhaps, black tie on the verge of being pigeonholed as a 'costume' for a particular occasion - much like morning dress has become 'wedding wear'? ill it be 'Oscar party wear' in future.... or even, in the US, simply "wedding wear"?

There's an interesting quote I found on that topic, from the Black Tie Guide:

Today most men choose their formal attire based on the marketing campaigns of an industry that treats the tuxedo as a novelty costume, on the influence of poorly dressed celebrities walking the red carpet, and on the latest fads from brand-name designers wantonly disregarding the tried-and-true conventions that lie at the heart of black tie's timeless appeal.

Especially on modern television shows, I see the dinner jacket being treated like a "costume". This is very unfortunate, but not inevitable.
As for the subject of the notch lapel dinner jacket, I suppose it can look fine if the rest of the outfit is traditional, but I personally don't wear it because it looks too much like a common business suit, especially if you start adding extra buttons, vents, etc.

TheStig · Jan 28, 2011

They are as correct as bluchers are for dinner jacket usage.

Meaning, definitely not something I'd do, nor is it for perfectionists, but 99% of people out there wouldn't..... know any better.

Qirrel · Jan 28, 2011

Matt Deckard said:
They've been around since the beginning. I just don't understand them being talked about as a sartorial faux pas now when they never were before.

I concur. They were and have always been acceptable:

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1920-1929&s=3&notword=&f=2

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1910-1919&s=3&notword=&f=2

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1900-1909&s=3&notword=&f=2

I'm sure you can find notch lapels in there.

Tomasso · Jan 28, 2011

Edward said:
this is simply a matter of the manufacturers cutting corners by using their regular lounge suit jacket pattern to produce DJs.

This theory was dispelled some time ago on another forum when a manufacture said that patterns are change regularly on factories floors with no substantial costs being incurred.

avedwards · Jan 31, 2011

Tomasso said:
This theory was dispelled some time ago on another forum when a manufacture said that patterns are change regularly on factories floors with no substantial costs being incurred.

That may be the case but it still appears that many off the rack notched lapel DJs have the same cut as a common suit - with two buttons and a single rear vent.

Personally I will always insist that a notched lapel dinner jacket is and always has been correct. However, it must obey the other rules of black tie such as only having one button, no vents (perhaps occasionally two small vents) and be worn with the correct accessories. The picture above of Sean Connery demonstrates this. His dinner jacket is bespoke tailored and has all the correct details. I know this for a fact because one of my friend's grandmothers did the fittings on Connery's suits.

_RAGNAR_ · Jan 31, 2011

Matt Deckard said:
They've been around since the beginning. I just don't understand them being talked about as a sartorial faux pas now when they never were before.

What is interesting if I remember that scene correctly is that it is three men having dinner in a private home discussing business.

bumphrey hogart · Feb 9, 2011

The real elephant in the room is the shawl collar, whilst DJs as a whole are an informal bastardisation of proper evening dress, at least the peak and notch have some historical precedence, the shawl was an attempt at copying mess jackets and I believe was seen as a travesty when it first became fashionable, certainly Jeeves is horrified when Bertie first brings one home and disposes of it at the first opportunity, telling Bertie 'he'll be mistaken for a waiter'.

Doc Average · Feb 9, 2011

bumphrey hogart said:
The real elephant in the room is the shawl collar, whilst DJs as a whole are an informal bastardisation of proper evening dress, at least the peak and notch have some historical precedence, the shawl was an attempt at copying mess jackets and I believe was seen as a travesty when it first became fashionable, certainly Jeeves is horrified when Bertie first brings one home and disposes of it at the first opportunity, telling Bertie 'he'll be mistaken for a waiter'.

Sorry to be a stickler, but that's only partially correct. Jeeves and Berite's aunt were actually horrified by his white mess jacket, not a shawl lapelled dinner jacket.

The shawl lapel on eveningwear is, I believe, as old as the Tuxedo itself, and dates back to the late 1880s.

brspiritus · Feb 9, 2011

The only place I would have occasion to wear a dinner outfit is the annual RITA Chartiy Ball in June, $250 per couple, black tie requested although 90% choose to wear it. There is an interesting mix of people at the event, moneyed people from Ponte Vedra and along the river in San Marco, wealthy businessmen and noveau riche hotshot politicians and lawyers. If you go and you want to stand out, in a bad way, by all means wear a notch lapel DJ. It may have more to do with the overall formality of the event (which should be white tie IMHO) but NLDJ are frowned upon (as are the goofballs who show up in a regular suit or "business casual").

bumphrey hogart · Feb 9, 2011

The shawl lapel on eveningwear is, I believe, as old as the Tuxedo itself, and dates back to the late 1880s.[/QUOTE]

Which comes I think is from where the term 'tuxedo' originally comes from, I should have googled this but I believe it was an American socialite who entered the Tuxedo club wearing a cut off evening tail coat and the 'tuxedo' and DJ was born.
brspiritus, This was covered really well earlier in the thread, all of these rules are produced by the cognoscenti at a particular time to differentiate between themselves and the hoi polloi, of course regardless of what you choose to wear everyone else is the hoi polloi,lol.
Doc,looking back you are absolutely correct,but I think the principle still holds.

Tomasso · Feb 10, 2011

brspiritus said:
If you go and you want to stand out, in a bad way, by all means wear a notch lapel DJ.

Isn't it interesting that men of distinction and style wore the NLDJ on the world stage for at least a century without even a snicker but would be mocked today at the RITA Chartiy Ball ( $250 per couple) in Backwater, FL. Go figure.

Franklin D. Roosevelt (left) and John N. Garner, Vice President-November 22, 1932

Arturo Toscanini-1947

Jimmy Stewart-1956

Cary Grant-1981

Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh-2002

The fact is that from day one Semi-Formal (Black Tie) was never held to the same standard of correctness as was Formal (White Tie). Peak, shawl and notch were all correct. Any rules to the contrary are made up by people to validate their preferences.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?6761-Formal-Wear-Primer/page42

Dr Kilroy · Feb 10, 2011

For me, step lapel dinner jacket is like a dress coat with black tie or stiff front shirt or patent leather shoes with morning dress; once was worn, but now, it's considered a faux-pas.

Best regards, Dr

AntonAAK · Feb 10, 2011

I love this thread...

brspiritus · Feb 10, 2011

Tomasso said:
Isn't it interesting that men of distinction and style wore the NLDJ on the world stage for at least a century without even a snicker but would be mocked today at the RITA Chartiy Ball ( $250 per couple) in Backwater, FL. Go figure.

The problem is most people who have money around here consider themselves part of the Old South Aristocracy and hence cling to some very outdated values no matter how misplaced. Truth be told these same people will go snobbish over the cut of dinner jacket but walk around on a normal day dressed like it's golf time.

Richard Warren · Feb 11, 2011

Makes you wonder who the goofball is, one who follows the existing social convention or one who flauts it to conform to some idea of correctness. Philip may not be much, but as a standard for etiquette, what more could you want.

Tomasso · Feb 11, 2011

fftopic:

Look at the s**t eating grin on Cary's face as he stands next to his wife, 47 years his junior. He's a cradle robber but he don't care.

avedwards · Feb 11, 2011

Tomasso said:

I think picture quite clearly demonstrates that there is nothing wrong with a notched lapel DJ providing the correct accessories are worn. They only become a faux pas when they grow too many buttons or gain a zoot suit cut.

Are notch lapel dinner jackets "correct"?

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New in Town

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One of the Regulars

One of the Regulars

One of the Regulars

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Practically Family

One of the Regulars

Practically Family

Incurably Addicted

Call Me a Cab

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