More than one twisted cross?

Naphtali · Feb 22, 2011

I have been informed there are Swastikas and there are Swastikas - that is, the direction, clockwise or counterclockwise, identify completely different twisted crosses. One is the unpleasant version, one is not.

If there is truth to this, please identify which is which. Also briefly describe the not unpleasant one's purpose.

martinsantos · Feb 22, 2011

Once I readed that the swastika is a symbol you find in several civilizations - except between Jews. I don't know if this is true or not - but makes sense as a symbol of nazi arianism.

Anyway, I think today any kind of Swastika would be linked with nazism. If somewhat different (another type), people would only think you're a neonazi trying to hide your preferences when using your symbols... My 2 cents, anyway.

LizzieMaine · Feb 22, 2011

The swastika was an ancient symbol for good luck in many cultures before the Nazis got hold of it. It was widely used by American Indians, and also by Hindus, among other cultures. You can see both versions of it turning up in art from these cultures, sometimes both in the same image -- it was all a question of symmetry rather than ideology.

"Good Luck" pocket charms and novelties sold in the US during the teens, twenties, and even the thirties commonly featured a swastika motif, and had nothing whatsoever to do with Nazis. The average American in 1933 would associate the symbol with Indians before he'd associate it with Hitler.

jacksonville-florida-trunk-good-luck-swastika-token_200550460879.jpg

LaMedicine · Feb 22, 2011

It is called "Manji" here, and the clockwise Manji is a map code that stands for Buddhist temples. So, to us, the first thing that it symbolises are Buddhist temples.
If you say Manji, we'll think of Buddhist temples and nothing else. When the same symbol is called a swastika, only then will we associate it with Nazism.
If you visit Kyoto and go searching for famous temples, the map code to look for is a Manji. If you ask why there are many swastikas on the maps and make any reference to Nazism, you are going to offend a lot of people, so if you get the chance to come visit Japan, please be forewarned.

Mav · Feb 22, 2011

"Twisted" is a bit of a misslabeling- it implied a "whirling" motion. As the others have said, not only a good luck symbol in several cultures, but also a sun symbol and a symbol of the "active" principle.

Hijacked, unfortunately, by the Nazis. Unfortunately, that image is so closely associated today with Nazism that I don't think it'll ever be usable again as a symbol. The same thing was done with the term "Aryan" (which originally had nothing to do with Nazism or white supremacy) but that still continues to be misused.

Chasseur · Feb 22, 2011

As mentioned earlier its pretty common in Hinduism and other Indian religions like Jainism. The name actually comes from Sankrit. During the fall festival of Diwali you can see it all over the place in India, often made up of christmas style light strings.

LizzieMaine · Feb 22, 2011

Another spot where a Lucky Swastika turns up is inside the nose cone of "The Spirit of St. Louis," painted there by the Ryan Aircraft Company mechanics who assembled the plane in 1927. It can be seen to this day at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum:

Given Col. Lindbergh's political dalliances in the America First era, some have tried to use this symbol as evidence of a deep, dark Nazi conspiracy dating back to the start of his public career, but they don't know what they're talking about.

Torpedo · Feb 22, 2011

The Nazis used the "clockwise" version of the swastika, both with straight sides and with curved sides, and with its cross both "straight" (as in a cross, proper) and "angled" (as in an "x"). I am using understandable terms, not that these are the technical terms.

Unfortunately, these are so indelibly associated with them that just trying to use the reversed versions will not do any good; these will be associeted just the same (not that everybody is aware of the actual direction the Nazi swastika is facing, anyway).

As mentioned, the swastika appears in many cultures. There was even an US Infantry division that had an swastika as its symbol, in pre-war times; it was changed once the symbol became distasteful because of Nazis.

Mocheman · Feb 22, 2011

If you watch enough old Kung Fu movies you'll see them also pop up from time to time. Especially if the movie involves a Buddhist monk.

Master of the Flying Guillotine

flat-top · Feb 22, 2011

Whirling Logs

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LaMedicine · Feb 23, 2011

Mav said:
Hijacked, unfortunately, by the Nazis. Unfortunately, that image is so closely associated today with Nazism that I don't think it'll ever be usable again as a symbol.

That would most certainly apply to European/American/Judo-Christianity based cultures and societies, but I wouldn't think so for Asian/Hindu-Buddhism based cultures and societies.
As I posted earlier, it is used here as the map code for Buddhist temples, and is in relatively daily use in other Asian cultures as well, where Buddhism is prevalent (as Hinduism is not as widely spread).

Tomasso · Feb 23, 2011

They cheered for Swastikas in Canada

Fernie Swastikas Hockey Team 1922

Windsor Swastikas Hockey Team 1912

Edmonton Swastikas Hockey Team 1916

Baggers · Feb 23, 2011

LaMedicine might find this interesting, but 3-4 years years ago I voiced a character for the English release of a Japanese anime series about two warring ninja clans, the Iga and Kouga, from the Sengoku era. In the unofficial "fansubs" that I watched to get a leg up on my character the subtitles were a much more literal translation of the original Japanese than the final scripts from which we worked, and one of the clans was called the Swastika Clan because of the kanji character used on screen to reference them. Again, long before the symbol was co opted by the Nazis.

I had no idea that it was used to denote Buddist temples, however.

Lincsong · Feb 23, 2011

LaMedicine said:
That would most certainly apply to European/American/Judo-Christianity based cultures and societies, but I wouldn't think so for Asian/Hindu-Buddhism based cultures and societies.
As I posted earlier, it is used here as the map code for Buddhist temples, and is in relatively daily use in other Asian cultures as well, where Buddhism is prevalent (as Hinduism is not as widely spread).

There is a house a couple blocks over where Buddists live and they have the symbol on the door.

Atterbury Dodd · Feb 23, 2011

Reminds me, I just found a website about reclaiming the swastika. I would like people to understand that it was not just a symbol of the Nazis and what it means historically, but it sure wouldn't hurt my feelings if it never regains popularity.

Engrishman · Feb 23, 2011

Baggers said:
LaMedicine might find this interesting, but 3-4 years years ago I voiced a character for the English release of a Japanese anime series about two warring ninja clans, the Iga and Kouga, from the Sengoku era. In the unofficial "fansubs" that I watched to get a leg up on my character the subtitles were a much more literal translation of the original Japanese than the final scripts from which we worked, and one of the clans was called the Swastika Clan because of the kanji character used on screen to reference them. Again, long before the symbol was co opted by the Nazis.

I had no idea that it was used to denote Buddist temples, however.

... you voiced a character in Basilisk?

Baggers · Feb 23, 2011

Engrishman said:
... you voiced a character in Basilisk?

Wow. The Fedora Lounge was the last place I thought I'd bump into an anime fan. Yes, I was Tenzen.

LaMedicine · Feb 23, 2011

Baggers said:
In the unofficial "fansubs" that I watched to get a leg up on my character the subtitles were a much more literal translation of the original Japanese than the final scripts from which we worked, and one of the clans was called the Swastika Clan because of the kanji character used on screen to reference them. Again, long before the symbol was co opted by the Nazis.

I had no idea that it was used to denote Buddist temples, however.

That would be "Manji-gumi" in original Japanese.

On a related note, there is a very famous novel by one of the representative Japanese novelists, Jun'ichiro Tanizaki, titled "卍 Manji" in Japanese, of which the English translation is titled Quicksand.

For us, it has to be whole deal--red background with white cricle, the black diagonally placed swastika --to associate the sign with Nazism, and is called "kagi-jyuji", hooked cross, not Manji.

Baggers · Feb 23, 2011

Thank you. I knew I could count on you for some illumination. That helps explain the the full name "Kouga Manjidani" to me. When we work on these projects the actors are often told only just enough to get us through each episode as we're working. That I was able to get a complete set of episodes on disc and watch my character's full story arc before I went into the booth was a rare opportunity. It sometimes posed more questions than it answered, especially with regard to translations and my line "readings." I sometimes wanted to want to hew closer to the original "J" dialogue than did the writer and director. Reconciling the two while still being able to "match the flaps" proved interesting on occasion.

Now enough with the thread hijack and back to your regularly scheduled programming.

LaMedicine · Feb 23, 2011

Baggers said:
That helps explain the the full name "Kouga Manjidani" to me. Now enough with the thread hijack and back to your regularly scheduled programming.

fftopic: again

Manjidani, or, Manji-dani, means Manji Valley. "Tani" (the change from "t" to "d" is a Japanese-type liaison) means valley, and would indicate either the location of the ninja village, or the location of the main battle ground.
"Kumi" (-gumi) means group/clan. Also commonly used terms to indicate such groups/clans are "To (tou)" and "Shu (shuu)".

The Kouga and Iga rivalry is a popular theme for ninja stories.

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