Questions for linguists, semanticists, and copy editors

Naphtali · May 2, 2011

Two questions:

1. What is the purpose for the word "co-conspirator?" The word "conspirator" appears to be the correct term in usage. If the purpose is a function of attorney bafflegab - that is, never use one word when ten will do - I understand; co-conspirator has no purpose.

2. Why is the phrase "enter into" used when, in nearly all circumstances, the term "enter" furnishes accurate information? Another way of phrasing the question might be: Has anyone ever "entered out of?"

McDaniel · May 2, 2011

Conspirator is singular...one persond can conspire. Co-conspirator means that another person had joined with the 'conspirator' and thus becomes a 'co-conspirator.

2. Entered means to enter..as to a room. Normally enter into means to join, or jointly/equally be responsibile for..usually legal term as in 'You and I enter into this contract with the intent...etc."
Someone else may have a better answer, but I hope this helps.

Naphtali · May 2, 2011

McDaniel:

Many thanks for your prompt reply. I have responded within your quote. I cannot write that you are wrong; I attempted to raise my issues with your explanation, though. . . . Please don't chew off my ear.

McDaniel said:
Conspirator is singular...one persond can conspire. Co-conspirator means that another person had joined with the 'conspirator' and thus becomes a 'co-conspirator. What happened to the plural, "conspirators?"

2. Entered means to enter..as to a room. Normally enter into means to join, or jointly/equally be responsibile for..usually legal term as in 'You and I enter into this contract with the intent...etc." When your example sentence deletes "into," it reads: You and I enter this contract with the intent...etc. Is not the meaning of the sentence identical?
Someone else may have a better answer, but I hope this helps.

***
Completely off topic - Does anyone else who wears spectacles view the red text as being on a lower layer within the entire quoted text box? The effect disappears when I don't look through my glasses.

subject101 · May 2, 2011

Naphtali said:
Two questions:

1. What is the purpose for the word "co-conspirator?" The word "conspirator" appears to be the correct term in usage. If the purpose is a function of attorney bafflegab - that is, never use one word when ten will do - I understand; co-conspirator has no purpose.

Even we have well documented cases of co-co-conspirators and co-co-co-conspirators.

:eusa_doh:

Harp · May 2, 2011

Naphtali said:
If the purpose is a function of attorney bafflegab - that is, never use one word when ten will do - I understand; co-conspirator has no purpose.

A conspiracy may involve the within but yet remain without.

scotrace · May 2, 2011

McDaniel has explained things correctly. Your qualms are understandable, naphtali, but our language isn't always logical.

McDaniel · May 2, 2011

I never chew ears...Van Goth taught me that.

ACQUISITIONS EDITOR:

McDaniel · May 2, 2011

Sorry, didn't finish
Acquisitions Editor: Finds, negotiates for, acquires manuscripts
Line Editor: Performs the actual content edit, (also called the 'line'
edit or 'substansive' edit
Content Editor: Reads for accuracy, balance, fairness, cogency of arugument,
adequatement treatment of subject matters and conformity to the original book proposal.
Copy Editor: Scours the manuscript for accuracy in grammer, citations and factual content.
Proof Reader: Fine tunes puncutation and other details.
All are necessary for a final production of a manuscript into book form.
Sorry to be wordy, but it may help understand my answer.
Thank you Scotrace

McDaniel · May 2, 2011

Sorry again, as to your second point..: what happened to 'conspitators' when singular 'conspitor' joins with another they become 'co-conspitors' if others join they may become co-conspitors if equal in rank or they then after may be refered to as: The conspitors, or The conspitors...

McDaniel · May 2, 2011

Got to ask, Subject101, where did you find the
black bird? Is that from the first movie with Cortez
or the second with Bette Davis or the final with Bogart?

John in Covina · May 2, 2011

Enter into seems to come up when it is a type of arrangement as listed above enter into a contract, an agreement, enter into matrimony. Enter into a new age of prosperity, a commitment. So it might mean more of a change in condition as opposed to an actual whereabouts.

Naphtali · May 2, 2011

subject101 said:
Even we have well documented cases of co-co-conspirators and co-co-co-conspirators. :eusa_doh:

AHA!

"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain

scotrace · May 2, 2011

co-conspirators
co-authors
co-founders
co-denfendants

All different in meaning from conspirators, authors, founders.

"Co" signifies a singular example. "Julia Child, Louisette Bertholle and Simmone Beck are co-authors of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking." They worked together on this specific book. They are also just "authors" of the book, but that doesn't quite define what is at work here.

"WEB DuBois, Ida B. Welles, Archibald Grimke, Florence Kelly, and several others co-founded {were co-founders of} the NAACP." All were what could be termed "founders" of something. Specifically, they were co-founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

"Sacco and Vanzetti were co-defendants in a murder and robbery trial in Braintree, MA." They were defendants. Specifically, they were co-defendants in this trial.

Miss Neecerie · May 2, 2011

scotrace said:
co-conspirators
co-authors
co-founders
co-denfendants

All different in meaning from conspirators, authors, founders.

"Co" signifies a singular example. "Julia Child, Louisette Bertholle and Simmone Beck are co-authors of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking." They worked together on this specific book. They are also just "authors" of the book, but that doesn't quite define what is at work here.

"WEB DuBois, Ida B. Welles, Archibald Grimke, Florence Kelly, and several others co-founded {were co-founders of} the NAACP." All were what could be termed "founders" of something. Specifically, they were co-founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

"Sacco and Vanzetti were co-defendants in a murder and robbery trial in Braintree, MA." They were defendants. Specifically, they were co-defendants in this trial.

exactly! the normal plural of conspirators does not imply that conspirators were involved in the SAME conspiracy. co-conspirators does imply one conspiracy with multiple parties conspiring together.

Yeps · May 2, 2011

scotrace said:
co-conspirators
co-authors
co-founders
co-denfendants

All different in meaning from conspirators, authors, founders.

"Co" signifies a singular example. "Julia Child, Louisette Bertholle and Simmone Beck are co-authors of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking." They worked together on this specific book. They are also just "authors" of the book, but that doesn't quite define what is at work here.

"WEB DuBois, Ida B. Welles, Archibald Grimke, Florence Kelly, and several others co-founded {were co-founders of} the NAACP." All were what could be termed "founders" of something. Specifically, they were co-founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

"Sacco and Vanzetti were co-defendants in a murder and robbery trial in Braintree, MA." They were defendants. Specifically, they were co-defendants in this trial.

The problem is that conspirators already includes that prefix in the word, and by it very etymology implies collaboration.

Naphtali · May 2, 2011

[

scotrace said:
co-conspirators
co-authors
co-founders
co-denfendants

All different in meaning from conspirators, authors, founders.

"Co" signifies a singular example. "Julia Child, Louisette Bertholle and Simmone Beck are co-authors of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking." They worked together on this specific book. They are also just "authors" of the book, but that doesn't quite define what is at work here.

"WEB DuBois, Ida B. Welles, Archibald Grimke, Florence Kelly, and several others co-founded {were co-founders of} the NAACP." All were what could be termed "founders" of something. Specifically, they were co-founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

"Sacco and Vanzetti were co-defendants in a murder and robbery trial in Braintree, MA." They were defendants. Specifically, they were co-defendants in this trial.

Am I stubborn or, perhaps, unable to easily discern nuance?

"Julia Child, Louisette Bertholle and Simmone Beck are ["the" is optional] authors of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking." The meaning appears identical to your example. Is there any other interpretation regarding authorship of the book?

"WEB DuBois, Ida B. Welles, Archibald Grimke, Florence Kelly, and several others founded the NAACP." This appears to be accurate and precise.

"Sacco and Vanzetti were co-defendants in a murder and robbery trial in Braintree, MA." Alter verbiage to: "Sacco and Vanzetti were defendants in their murder and robbery trial in Braintree, MA." The meaning, again appears to be accurate and precise.

HodgePodge · May 3, 2011

I'm going to risk a fight here and suggest that this is boiling down to stylistic preference. I don't see how the meanings of the phrases are any less accurate when making use of words with a "co-" prefix.

John in Covina · May 3, 2011

Habitation or cohabitation?

Miss Neecerie · May 3, 2011

Yeps said:
The problem is that conspirators already includes that prefix in the word, and by it very etymology implies collaboration.

Small technicality here....but the word conspirators does not contain the prefix co-. It contains the prefix con- .
They are related and indeed carry similar meanings, but are still different prefixes.

I am being fussy I know...but if the prefix in conspire was co- that would make the word it attaches to nspire which is not a word in english at all.

con- spire..... -spire from the latin word for breath...... to breathe together.

John in Covina · May 3, 2011

Miss Neecerie said:
Small technicality here....but the word conspirators does not contain the prefix co-. It contains the prefix con- .
They are related and indeed carry similar meanings, but are still different prefixes. I am being fussy I know...but if the prefix in conspire was co- that would make the word it attaches to nspire which is not a word in english at all. con- spire..... -spire from the latin word for breath...... to breathe together.

Excellent! That cut to the heart of the matter. A gold start for you! The English language can sometimes be very precise and as it has been said before words do have meaning.

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