Threads That Go Astray

Puzzicato · Jun 9, 2011

LizzieMaine said:
There's a difference between discussing or even debating an issue in a thread and what might indelicately be called "thread crapping." That's when someone posts a thread saying, oh, something like "Who Likes Off-The-Face Hats," and hopes to get a lot of talk from fellow wearers and enthusiasts of the same, only to have someone post something like "Off the face hats make you look like you're wearing a stovelid on the back of your head. I hate them!" and the thread then degenerates into a debate, where it was only intended to be an appreciation. A little restraint and common sense would prevent that from happening, and would also prevent hard feelings from off-the-face hat wearers who don't appreciate the unsought criticism.

And the thing is, if a thread crapper goes into (for example - may not be a real thread) the "I love 1950s suits" thread and says "I hate 1950s suits, I love 1930s suits" - well, there is probably an "I love 1930s suits" thread where that sentiment would be welcome and actually contribute to the dialogue and world peace.

I don't mind thread drift, but I think there is a difference between that and thread derailment.

Amy Jeanne · Jun 9, 2011

Lady Day said:
The mocking, heckling and FB opinion like threads irk me too. There is really no discourse in them, they are all, "I loke this." "Me too!" next thread.

LD

Yuppers! Could care less what anyone here thinks of FB so I don't go in that thread anymore. I *do* care what people here think of, say, silent films, George & Gracie, or Hollywood patterns.

I always thought I was a decent contributor and my knowledge of vintage is pretty good -- especially popular culture, which is my main area of interest. But lately I just don't feel welcome here because I own an iPod (to listen to vintage music and OTR at work!) and don't dress vintage every single day. *sigh*

Miss Neecerie · Jun 9, 2011

Amy Jeanne said:
Yuppers! Could care less what anyone here thinks of FB so I don't go in that thread anymore. I *do* care what people here think of, say, silent films, George & Gracie, or Hollywood patterns.

I always thought I was a decent contributor and my knowledge of vintage is pretty good -- especially popular culture, which is my main area of interest. But lately I just don't feel welcome here because I own an iPod (to listen to vintage music and OTR at work!) and don't dress vintage every single day. *sigh*

I think one of the things that is a main issue,is that taken as a WHOLE, all those "I hate..', 'What I dont have...','people these days are lacking...' threads is that they foster the environment of 'not good enough'....amongst the larger group.

Go in and read one, and surely you will find something you do, or like, or care about, being stepped on. And while everyone can just grow a thicker 'cant you take a joke' skin....I would love to see the community go the other way, that is, to stop focusing on what we 'hate, don't do like others, find lacking in people' and actually focus on things like actual history, actual clothing, what people did, etc.

We 'claim' that vintage manners are better, yet spend a large portion of time framing things in a negative way, slamming things, people and so forth, and alienating people who come here -thinking-its a great place to discuss actual vintage things.

How any of that is 'mannerly' is really beyond me.

And it probably accounts for a good many of the long term regulars not really caring to contribute much here anymore...myself included. I log in and see five negative threads in the new posts..and click 'log out', because I have better things to be doing then the 'point and giggle at non vintage things' all day

LizzieMaine · Jun 9, 2011

Well, I use iTunes running on a desktop computer to listen to my stuff, so I guess by the level of vintage fundamentalism some seem to aspire to, I'm not welcome either.

I think it's important to *think* about and *critique* modern culture rather than just taking it for granted as "the way things are supposed to be." But there's more to critiquing than just saying HAHAHA FACEBOOK SUX. That way of looking at things is, in fact, one of the most unfortunate tendencies in modern culture -- thinking that simple mockery and ridicule of something you don't like is an effective way of dealing with it. To really critique culture -- any culture -- is to think hard about why you like or dislike it -- and too often in these threads it seems like people don't want to challenge themselves by doing that.

Miss Neecerie · Jun 9, 2011

LizzieMaine said:
I think it's important to *think* about and *critique* modern culture rather than just taking it for granted as "the way things are supposed to be." But there's more to critiquing than just saying HAHAHA FACEBOOK SUX. That way of looking at things is, in fact, one of the most unfortunate tendencies in modern culture -- thinking that simple mockery and ridicule of something you don't like is an effective way of dealing with it. To really critique culture -- any culture -- is to think hard about why you like or dislike it -- and too often in these threads it seems like people don't want to challenge themselves by doing that.

I agree with this......and I don't think most are thinking past the 'ugg that sucks'...

But even the insightful thought process of why some of it is bad (if that sort of discussion was occuring), while occaisionally thought provoking, if it surplants talking about actual vintage, why we like it, etc...then serves to swerve the board from 'Lovers of Vintage' to 'Haters of Modern', which is unfortunate, since those two things are not at all the same.

rue · Jun 9, 2011

The "I hate threads" aren't new. I've found some that started (or at least ended up that way) in the early days of the FL. So is it the way people are reacting to them now that's different? Or have those always been a problem?
I'm just curious [huh]

Oh and Amy Jeanne...... you know I love George and Gracie

subject101 · Jun 9, 2011

oh, come on, you can't be so oversensitive

If you don't like 'I hate...' threads, just don't read them, let the others to be happy.

Whenever I like something, I don't care a f-s if other people don't like it, hate it or think it sucks. It is just childish.

LizzieMaine · Jun 9, 2011

Actually, I think there's nothing childish about it -- it's natural to react that way. I think it's human nature to be uncomfortable if you walk into a room where everyone is ridiculing something you enjoy -- as witness the many threads like "Most Ridiculous Remark You Ever Heard," or "Things People Say When You Dress Vintage" or "Does Vintage Produce A Rude or Violent Response." Humans are by nature pack animals, and there's a tendency to attack the outsider, no matter what the distinguishing characteristic of outsiderness is. And if you, yourself, are the outsider, it can be oppressive.

I think vintage folks tend to mock and ridicule modern foibles in part out of reaction to all the ridicule and mockery they've gotten themselves -- all the "Hey, 1940 called and wants its hair back" cracks from gum-chewing nitwits on the street. I don't think this is necessarily *conscious* reaction, but I think it's very much behind a lot of the "I Hate.." threads.

Such threads will probably always exist -- unless we bartenders come to the point of deciding to unilaterally ban them -- so I think the most constructive way to deal with them is to try to understand the deeper meaning behind them, even if we don't choose to take part. And if we do participate, it's worth trying to make them at least more thoughtful and discussion-oriented than just a continuous barrage of THAT SUX one-liners.

Undertow · Jun 9, 2011

I believe there are valid psychological and social-psychological aspects to describe WHY people post in "I hate..." threads.

Let's say I'm as sweet as peaches to everyone I meet because I have great manners and I'm not a negative person. But let's say I need to vent every now and again. Before the internet, I may have vented to a close friend or relative, or I may not have vented at all and developed some kind of anxiety complex. With the internet, I can join a forum of likeminded individuals and air some laundry that's been cluttering up my mental closets.

I don't believe the existence of "I hate..." threads describes some kind of social shift in attitudes or intellects, so much as it describes a shift in how and with whom we communicate. Instead of stopping by your friend's for coffee to vent about your rotten neighbors, you log into the FL to vent about jerks in sweatpants.

The obverse of course is that when you post to an internet forum, your negativity is no longer confined to the the kitchen and cup of coffee.

subject101 · Jun 9, 2011

LizzieMaine said:
Actually, I think there's nothing childish about it -- it's natural to react that way. I think it's human nature to be uncomfortable if you walk into a room where everyone is ridiculing something you enjoy

But this is not the street, this is just an internet forum. You decide what you want to read. Feeling uncomfortable because some-unknown-body said that he/she hates iPods, it is over reacting.

LizzieMaine said:
I think vintage folks tend to mock and ridicule modern foibles in part out of reaction to all the ridicule and mockery they've gotten themselves

Oh yes, 90.1% of modern society hates vintage stuff and vintage clothing, that's why you can't be so oversensitive and then go vintage.

However, I don't think those 'I hate this i modern gadget' threads are started as a mockery or revenge. It is just some talking about this daily life... or that terrorist amish faction that infiltrated this forum.

Feraud · Jun 9, 2011

Amy Jeanne said:
Oh well.....I do stay out of those threads now, but they are glaring when you want to read the new posts. I have to admit I do like the "Name something you'd never wear" thread because it has spiraled into vast ridiculousness!! lol lol lol

Good point. It can be difficult to wade through the posts to find what you are looking for with the indignant rancor that is posted.

rue · Jun 9, 2011

I find it amusing that a thread about off topics has itself become off topic.
One of my reasons for bringing this thread back from the dead was that I was hoping, out of curiosity, to hear from a certain group of people that got irate over a thread that wasn't/isn't about research going off topic and why they cared, but c'est la vie .....

Anyway, I agree with Lizzie and Undertow (I hear those 40s comments from my own mother and I definitely need somewhere to vent lol), but I can also see the point where if you don't like a subject then you shouldn't read it. That's what I do [huh]

Maybe someone should start a thread about why they hate 'hate threads'

AtomicEraTom · Jun 9, 2011

I was hoping the very same thing.

rue said:
One of my reasons for bringing this thread back from the dead was that I was hoping, out of curiosity, to hear from a certain group of people that got irate over a thread that wasn't/isn't about research going off topic and why they cared, but c'est la vie .....

rue · Jun 9, 2011

As the man in the Tootsie Roll Pop commercial said...... the world may never know........

kiltie · Jun 9, 2011

Miss Neecerie said:
I think one of the things that is a main issue,is that taken as a WHOLE, all those "I hate..', 'What I dont have...','people these days are lacking...' threads is that they foster the environment of 'not good enough'....amongst the larger group.

Go in and read one, and surely you will find something you do, or like, or care about, being stepped on. And while everyone can just grow a thicker 'cant you take a joke' skin....I would love to see the community go the other way, that is, to stop focusing on what we 'hate, don't do like others, find lacking in people' and actually focus on things like actual history, actual clothing, what people did, etc.

We 'claim' that vintage manners are better, yet spend a large portion of time framing things in a negative way, slamming things, people and so forth, and alienating people who come here -thinking-its a great place to discuss actual vintage things.

How any of that is 'mannerly' is really beyond me.

And it probably accounts for a good many of the long term regulars not really caring to contribute much here anymore...myself included. I log in and see five negative threads in the new posts..and click 'log out', because I have better things to be doing then the 'point and giggle at non vintage things' all day

I wrote a longish thread starter around this very thing yesterday, then thought better; that it would likely just unravel. It was focused largely on your third paragraph, but it was pretty transparent in that I was clearly calling some folks out. Talk about spinning your wheels - not very productive. But for what it's worth, I second everything you've posted up there. Well said. Clappy emoticons and plus one and so on...

scottyrocks · Jun 9, 2011

There is nothing wrong with disliking something but there are ways of stating that you dont like something while taking others' feelings into consideration.

A while back I got into a couple of back-and-forths with a member here regarding just that idea. My point wasnt that you cant hate stuff, but just show a little consideraton of others' feelings when being critical.

Its a tendency, more and more, for this extreme negativity to catch on because humanity, in general, has a tendency to move toward the lowest common denominator. Shortly after this one particular individual began his hate tirades, I noticed a bunch of others, many new members, jumping in. This, to me, was part of that proverbial ski-slope into the quagmire. I wasnt happy about it, and I said something.

So, I am glad, in this thread, right now, to see that I am not the only one being vocal about civility. Theres more to life than having thick skin. I would like to help preserve the high quality of this site by acting the in the way of the era we aspire to. I dont want to just overlook the crude of behavior of today, especially right here on this site.

Pompidou · Jun 9, 2011

As the ambassador and collective public face of the greater vintage community, there would probably be some benefit in not looking like we hate the world and feel superior to everyone in it. Reputation is seemingly 99% the worst things people can remember and 1% the best. There was a thread some time ago debating what to call vintage enthusiasts - atavists, vintagers, etc - there were many suggestions. What do we want the outside world to call us? If we look too negative, they probably won't be calling us atavists.

Puzzicato · Jun 9, 2011

subject101 said:
But this is not the street, this is just an internet forum. You decide what you want to read. Feeling uncomfortable because some-unknown-body said that he/she hates iPods, it is over reacting.

I really don't think it is overreacting. When I found the Lounge I thought "Huzzah! People who are like me!" and then saw actually, it isn't people like me, it's people who hate everything I like, comment rudely on things I am enthusiastic about and set the bar so high that I will never be worthy. It feels like a heightened rejection - like when the popular kids at school pretended to be my friends so they could bully me worse for believing that I could possibly have been their friend.

There are enough people here that I can have interesting conversations with, even well-considered disagreements, that I continue to enjoy it. Saying "it's JUST the internet" is facile and doesn't take into consideration the very real attachment I, and I think many others, have to this place. Why would we bother giving our time to it otherwise?

rue · Jun 9, 2011

Gosh... I think I like just about everyone here (except for an unnamed rude few). I don't know if it's reciprocated, but I hope it is*. It may sound odd, but I have more in common with the people here than I ever had anywhere else, even if it's just a shared love of one thing and nothing else.

*not used as a ploy to get anyone to say anything, but just a hope that I'm not on "the bad people lists" that were previously mentioned :eeek:

kiltie · Jun 9, 2011

scottyrocks said:
There is nothing wrong with disliking something but there are ways of stating that you dont like something while taking others' feelings into consideration.

A while back I got into a couple of back-and-forths with a member here regarding just that idea. My point wasnt that you cant hate stuff, but just show a little consideraton of others' feelings when being critical.

Its a tendency, more and more, for this extreme negativity to catch on because humanity, in general, has a tendency to move toward the lowest common denominator. Shortly after this one particular individual began his hate tirades, I noticed a bunch of others, many new members, jumping in. This, to me, was part of that proverbial ski-slope into the quagmire. I wasnt happy about it, and I said something.

So, I am glad, in this thread, right now, to see that I am not the only one being vocal about civility. Theres more to life than having thick skin. I would like to help preserve the high quality of this site by acting the in the way of the era we aspire to. I dont want to just overlook the crude of behavior of today, especially right here on this site.

I really don't think it is overreacting. When I found the Lounge I thought "Huzzah! People who are like me!" and then saw actually, it isn't people like me, it's people who hate everything I like, comment rudely on things I am enthusiastic about and set the bar so high that I will never be worthy. It feels like a heightened rejection - like when the popular kids at school pretended to be my friends so they could bully me worse for believing that I could possibly have been their friend.

There are enough people here that I can have interesting conversations with, even well-considered disagreements, that I continue to enjoy it, but just saying "it's JUST the internet" is facile.

Just like in countless other forums, blogs, etc..., internet anonymity affords posters an opportunity to say things they would never say in public. In short: it enables cowards. Puzzicato's word - bullies. And to further piggyback her post, it ultimately makes this place no better than any other, and worse if you take into account the blatant hypocrisy.

Now, don't get me wrong, if there's a thing I can't abide, it's a thin skinned sissy ( yeah, I said it - pm me if you want my name and address )... But taking some poor guy's ( gal's ) honest, innocent question, request for help, and or opinions, and using it as a platform for ridicule and mocking, that's just...weak. Unimaginative, cowardly, and weak.

And in an effort to keep this post relevant, it simply derails threads. Especially, especially when a specific question is asked and no opinion solicited. You have an answer, or you don't. Helpful and/or amusing anecdotes relative to the post? Great! Useless debasement, ridiculing a contributor, etc... What have you gained? The satisfaction a coward gets from kicking a puppy? Throwing a rock through someone's window in the middle of the night? Well done...

Threads That Go Astray

GOING OFF-TOPIC IN A THREAD: HOW MUCH DOES IT BOTHER YOU?

Don't care -- can be funny

Depends on the thread's topic

Bothers me somewhat

Bothers me a lot

One Too Many

Call Me a Cab

I'll Lock Up

I'll Lock Up

One of the Regulars

My Mail is Forwarded Here

One of the Regulars

Practically Family

I'll Lock Up

One Too Many

One Too Many

Practically Family

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