The return of the NKVD overcoat

subject101 · Jun 13, 2011

Guttersnipe said:
In sense that, throughout its history, the Russian Communist Party used clothing to help present a unified front and chose modes of dress designed to communicate power, prowess and scariness, I would say they definitely had very official "semi-official" uniforms (checkout Stalin: The Court of The Red Czar by Simon Montefiore, he spends a significant amount of time discussing how members of the Bolshevik elite dressed, ate, and lived as part of his analysis of its nuanced cliquishness inherent in its power structure).

Communist leaders started to wear leather jackets because they thought leather had any kind of psychological impact over population. Himmler liked and copied the idea several years later.

However, these kind of jackets were never part of any uniform. They were civilian clothes.

Germany suffered a leather shortage since almost 1936 and in the soviet Russia, a leather jacket was a luxury item. Some officers were allowed to purchase one or were given one but they were quite less common than we think after being badly affected by movies.

Just try to find a picture of a real NKVD member with a leather coat. They existed but you're going to find first pictures of civilians, journalists and war correspondants with these jackets.

Wally_Hood · Jun 14, 2011

(jumping in completely naive) I've thought that Sam Browne belts were a solid combination of functionality and coolness. Didn't our military wear them during the Great War? Don't RCMP officers wear them with their scarlet tunics? And, going even farther afield, see the late 60s through the 70s 27th Lancers (Revere, MA).

Re: Communists and Nazis wearing the distinctive overcoats: I cannot help but recall the creepy guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark and the famous chain coat hanger...

Maguire · Jun 14, 2011

Wally_Hood said:
(jumping in completely naive) I've thought that Sam Browne belts were a solid combination of functionality and coolness. Didn't our military wear them during the Great War? Don't RCMP officers wear them with their scarlet tunics? And, going even farther afield, see the late 60s through the 70s 27th Lancers (Revere, MA).

Re: Communists and Nazis wearing the distinctive overcoats: I cannot help but recall the creepy guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark and the famous chain coat hanger...

He was an SS guy channeling his best Himmler impersonation basically. And he was wearing a very plain DB business suit underneath it.

As for NKVD folks wearing it, i used to be very much interested in the Soviet era, specifically the 1920s-1940s USSR, and made a point to read as much as i could about the chiefs of the NKVD, like Yagoda, Yezhov, Dzerzhinsky, menzhinsky, etc. I've seen plenty of photos of the bunch and i've yet to see one in a leather overcoat. This is the uniform i usually associate with the nkvd and the overcoat i've seen pretty much all the top guys wear-

Perhaps rank and file wore leather coats but it would have been, as someone said, personal choice for plainclothes work. I think Yagoda had an interest in updating the uniform and making it some sort of garish, flashy white uniform but he didn't last long enough to make it happen.

Dinerman · Jun 14, 2011

It's not even all that good looking.

Here's how it's done.
Proper Russian Leather Coats. Moscow. 1928.
French architect Le Corbusier on the left with Russian architectsSergei Eisenstein and Andrei Burov

subject101 · Jun 14, 2011

Wally_Hood said:
I cannot help but recall the creepy guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark and the famous chain coat hanger...

...and this is the only guy you're going to see with one of these leather coats.

Maguire said:
As for NKVD folks wearing it, i used to be very much interested in the Soviet era, specifically the 1920s-1940s USSR, and made a point to read as much as i could about the chiefs of the NKVD, like Yagoda, Yezhov, Dzerzhinsky, menzhinsky, etc. I've seen plenty of photos of the bunch and i've yet to see one in a leather overcoat.

Me too, and I haven't seen yet any picture of a real NKVD member or a real Gestapo member with a leather coat.

Dinerman said:
Proper Russian Leather Coats. Moscow. 1928.
French architect Le Corbusier on the left with Russian architects Sergei Eisenstein and Andrei Burov

Yes

my great grandpa' purchased one of these while travelling through Europe during the 1930s.

MisterCairo · Jun 14, 2011

Derek WC said:
It's Hitlers darned fault why you can't wear a toothbrush mustache anymore without being severely criticized. What can ye do though?

That reminds me: Some kid in school the other day had a really decent haircut, similar to the guy's in my picture (William Hays). Some kids were saying that he looked like Hitler. Of course, the next day he comes to school with his head shaved.

Looking like Hitler one day, a neo-Nazi skinhead the next! I suspect the irony was lost on all concerned!

I should talk about the skinhead look!!!

dr greg · Jun 15, 2011

If I had to stand guard outside in the weather on a winter's night in Russia somewhere while the bigwig had a vodka orgy in his dacha, I'd be wanting a good leather coat too....

Philalethes · Jun 15, 2011

Dinerman said:
It's not even all that good looking.

Agreed: something looks plastic-like about the leather. The vertical seem at the top isn't doing much for it either: it looks too plain.

By the way, assuming that the overcoats cost as much as the "black leather jackets" that the FSO are buying, they are costing about $870 each. It seems like they could do much better for the price.

Guttersnipe · Jun 15, 2011

Great photo! I too have never seen a photograph of an NKVD plainclothes officer in a leather trenchcoat, but then again, photos of them are pretty rare.

I have read and been told firsthand accounts of interactions with chekists, though, and they frequently mention them.

Maguire said:
He was an SS guy channeling his best Himmler impersonation basically. And he was wearing a very plain DB business suit underneath it.

As for NKVD folks wearing it, i used to be very much interested in the Soviet era, specifically the 1920s-1940s USSR, and made a point to read as much as i could about the chiefs of the NKVD, like Yagoda, Yezhov, Dzerzhinsky, menzhinsky, etc. I've seen plenty of photos of the bunch and i've yet to see one in a leather overcoat. This is the uniform i usually associate with the nkvd and the overcoat i've seen pretty much all the top guys wear-

Perhaps rank and file wore leather coats but it would have been, as someone said, personal choice for plainclothes work. I think Yagoda had an interest in updating the uniform and making it some sort of garish, flashy white uniform but he didn't last long enough to make it happen.

avedwards · Jun 15, 2011

First of all, this thread is getting too politicised and it would be a shame if it was closed down. All I can say is that Putin is no longer in charge, Medvedev is. Conspiracy theories aside, Medvedev suggested burrying Lenin's body and rejecting the USSR as a terrorist state. Those are objective facts. I suggest that anyone who wants to dicsuss the politics behind this do so via PM.

As for the leather coats, I think they look quite good. I wouldn't mind having one myself. I could also imagine that they are quite practical given how cold it can get in Russia. Like the ushanka hat they may have become associated with the Soviet Union but they were once civilian items.

What I would like to know is did the KGB, as formed by Khrushchev wear these coats?

Italian-wiseguy · Jun 16, 2011

Philalethes said:
Agreed: something looks plastic-like about the leather. The vertical seem at the top isn't doing much for it either: it looks too plain.

From a purely sartorial point of view, I think lapels are too small; a little larger lapels, and it'll look a lot better, in my opinion. The leather is is kind of "plastic shiny" too, but this could be the photograph, or maybe it's some kind of pre-production specimen before the "real think".

conrad5157 · Jun 16, 2011

Maybe Putin's trying to make up for this fashion faux pas

avedwards · Jun 16, 2011

Italian-wiseguy said:
From a purely sartorial point of view, I think lapels are too small; a little larger lapels, and it'll look a lot better, in my opinion. The leather is is kind of "plastic shiny" too, but this could be the photograph, or maybe it's some kind of pre-production specimen before the "real think".

I agree that larger lapels would look nice. The shiny leather is most likely due to it never having been worn. Once worn it will probably look better.

Fly Boy · Aug 9, 2011

maduro 5 said:
The sick part of it is that the Russians are very proud of their history. The more things change the more they stay the same...

The Russians should be proud of their history, particularly playing the main part in the defeat of Nazi Germany, at horrific cost. Let them wear what coats they want.

Marc Chevalier · Aug 9, 2011

Alec Guinness wore a pretty authentic-looking one in Doctor Zhivago.

guygardner · Aug 18, 2011

Fly Boy said:
The Russians should be proud of their history, particularly playing the main part in the defeat of Nazi Germany, at horrific cost. Let them wear what coats they want.

Agreed.

There is also a big difference between the NKVD + Stalin and the Soviet Union post-Stalin. The problem with the coats is their connection to the NKVD not to the USSR. Many Russians believe they were better off in the 1960s-1980s, than they have been under Yeltsin and Putin. I understand the creepy-feeling associated with something the NKVD would have worn. Just be glad the CIA didn't take a liking to a particular jacket or coat and ruin it for everybody else.

Edward · Aug 18, 2011

Maguire said:
Like the last poster mentioned, this was the uniform of all cops. Nazis wore Sam Browne belts, they were really popular with both the SA and the italian squadrista too. But they were also popular among plenty of other units and standard wear for military and police for ages. If they decided to start using them again, should we start saying "THEY ARE DRESSING LIKE NAZIS!" Hitler wore raincoats and fedoras too on occasion, why don't we just toss those away on account of his decision to dress like pretty much everyone else in that day and age. This argument that so and so did it so it can't be good always gets to me

I agree entire with your general thrust here; clearly some folks are posting while taking a break from checking under the bed...

The Sam Browne belt is, however, a resolutely British thing. On its origins:

Sam Browne was a British army officer serving in India in the 19th century. In those days officers always carried a sword into battle. It hung from a little metal clip on the waistbelt, called a 'frog'. However, the scabbard tended to slide around a lot when they charged the enemy, meaning that it had to be steadied with the left hand before being drawn.
During the Indian Rebellion of 1857 in India, Captain Sam Browne was serving with the 2nd Punjab Irregular Cavalry. On 31 August 1858, Captain Browne was involved in the fighting near Seerporah. As he charged a cannon being reloaded, he was attacked by one of its crew. Browne received two sword cuts, one on the left knee and one which severed his left arm at the shoulder. He survived the injuries but without a left hand, he found that he was now unable to control or draw his sword.
Browne came up with the idea of wearing a second belt which went over his right shoulder and held the scabbard in just the spot he wanted. This would hook into a heavy leather belt with "D-rings" for attaching accessories. It also securely carried a pistol in a flap-holster on his right hip and included a binocular case with a neck-strap. Other cavalry officers in the Indian Army began wearing a similar rig and soon it became part of the standard uniform. During the Boer War, the rig was copied by Imperial and Commonwealth troops and eventually became standard issue.
Infantry officers wore a variant that used two suspender-like straps instead of the cross-belt. It was supposedly invented in 1878 by Lieutenant Sir Basil Templer Graham-Montgomery, 5th Baronet Stanhope of the 60th Rifles while serving in India. There has been a great deal of discussion as to whether Browne modified Graham-Montgomery's design or vice-versa. Since there were no patents issued for either design and both camps have accounts backing up their claims, it may never be decided.

See further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Browne_belt (One of Wikipedia's better entries, actually).

It has been widely adopted by military and paramilitary forces around the world since then, of course: the IRA, for one, were known for wearing them a lot during the Irish War of Independence (1919-21), and the anti-Treaty irregulars and uniformed officers of the new Free State Army alike during the 1922-23 Irish Civil War.

Derek WC said:
That reminds me: Some kid in school the other day had a really decent haircut, similar to the guy's in my picture (William Hays). Some kids were saying that he looked like Hitler. Of course, the next day he comes to school with his head shaved.

Did they call him Mussolini after that?

Italian-wiseguy said:
Actually Carabinieri officers and ncos wear Sam Browne belts ("cinturone con spallaccio") up to this day, and luckily nobody found this to be a "nazi" thing.
It's simply a military or police thing. They don't look bad at all; only sometimes I hear some complain about Sam Browne belts being uncomfortable for everyday wear, still... it pays to look well.

Agreed.... see above.

Wally_Hood said:
Re: Communists and Nazis wearing the distinctive overcoats: I cannot help but recall the creepy guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark and the famous chain coat hanger...

Probably most people of a certain generation think of him first when they think "Nazi", but it truly is a stereotype with little basis in reality. I have a leather trenchcoat myself - I've noticed when wearing it with a suit that folks in my parents' generation who grew up with Sixties movies celebrating WW2 are the ones who make Gestapo comments; anyone much under thirty is infinitely more likely to raise Matrix[/] comments first.

MisterCairo said:

I should talk about the skinhead look!!!

Click to expand...

A stand-up once told me "bald guys are all either fighters or dancers"... lol

avedwards said:

First of all, this thread is getting too politicised and it would be a shame if it was closed down. All I can say is that Putin is no longer in charge, Medvedev is. Conspiracy theories aside, Medvedev suggested burrying Lenin's body and rejecting the USSR as a terrorist state. Those are objective facts. I suggest that anyone who wants to dicsuss the politics behind this do so via PM.

Click to expand...

Bravo. Go back to checking under your bed, fellas.... McCarthy might have missed one.

As for the leather coats, I think they look quite good. I wouldn't mind having one myself. I could also imagine that they are quite practical given how cold it can get in Russia. Like the ushanka hat they may have become associated with the Soviet Union but they were once civilian items.

Click to expand...

Exactly. They'd need to be pretty heavily lined, IMO, to keep the Russian Winter cold out (fur would work better on that basis), but a well-tanned leather coat of than length I find to be immensely practical as rainwear.

Fly Boy said:

The Russians should be proud of their history, particularly playing the main part in the defeat of Nazi Germany, at horrific cost. Let them wear what coats they want.

Click to expand...

Aye, well..... let's not get into Hollywood and its influential penchant for revisionist history, eh? Remember, it was Americans, led by Jon Bon Jovi and Steve Macqueen what won the war and saved us all from having to speak German.....

Sierra Charriba · Aug 18, 2011

Some photos of myself reenacting a WWII Red Army officer. The coat is original, but I don't know the issue date.

ButteMT61 · Aug 18, 2011

Sierra - great pix! What watch are you wearing? I do Soviet reenacting with my son, and Ive been looking for a watch...just found a Telogreika in my size for winter

Spasibo!

guygardner · Aug 18, 2011

Sierra Charriba said:
Some photos of myself reenacting a WWII Red Army officer. The coat is original, but I don't know the issue date.

That is a great greatcoat. Where did you find it?

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