Christmas without Christ? Huh?

Nothing wrong with "Xmas" -- "X" has been used for over a thousand years as an abbreviation for "Christ." The X in this case isn't the modern Roman alphabet X but rather comes from the Greek letter Chi, used in ancient times as a symbol of Jesus. When people get into a high dudgeon claiming it's a secular attempt to "erase Christ from Christmas," they're only proclaiming their own illiteracy. "Xmas" in advertising has been used for a long, long time as a way of saving space in layouts, and there's nothing particularly modern about it.



Note that in this ad "A Xmas" is grammatically correct. Xmas is not properly pronounced "Eks-mas," it's pronounced "Christmas," just as if it were spelled out fully.

LizzieMaine said:

When people get into a high dudgeon claiming it's a secular attempt to "erase Christ from Christmas," ...

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Might as well complain that "Nabisco" is a corporate conspiracy to erase the word "biscuit" from our consciousness ... or that "IHOP" is malevolently hiding "pancakes".

Marc Chevalier said:

Good point! Speaking of which, how was your weekend in Los Angeles?

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lol I'll explain and post a few pics in the thread I started about it ok?

Lizzie thanks for the info education is a good thing!

HepKitty said:

Mr Hallack that's a good question. I've heard (from a Mormon) that Jesus was actually born in the spring, which is lambing season. Explains why the shepherds were watching their flocks by night. A Mormon friend when I was a kid gave the date of 6 April. Anyone else heard any theories?

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Most sheep breeds go into heat based upon light availability- in other words, the reproductive cycle in ewes is triggered by decreasing daily day length in the fall. (There are some breeds that can breed anytime of year, but most are triggered by decreasing daylight). They roughly have a 5-month gestation period.

So with the majority of most sheep coming into heat around September-Nov in the northern hemisphere, and a 5 month gestation, that would equal around Feb-May. Even if they bred early, the probable earliest point would be August since light levels don't start decreasing until practically July, and it's not an immediate thing. That would be Jan.

The theory I've always heard was to move a Christian holiday nearest to the pagan solistice festival so they chose late December. The majority of the world that celebrates Christmas in Jan is proably a lot closer to the actual time frame than those who celebrate in December.


I've always found it interesting that Christmas is a set date; but Easter is not (with some Christian religions celebrating different dates entirely). While I understand that Good Friday/ Easter is supposed to follow Passover, I never understoof why this wasn't a set date as well for Christians. Can someone explain that to me?

I think its a set date because of the solstice. The pagan religions worshipped solar marks. The 25th may have been the solstice date in one of the early calendars. I'm not sure.

a pagan friend told me that decorating trees (coniferous), red and green, and giving gifts are all northern European pagan traditions for Yule, winter solstice. so it sounds like a lot of different cultures were used to contribute to xmas

Sheeplady: I don't know if I can explain it—but I'll at least try . You are quite right—unsurprisingly, judging by your moniker—regarding the likely historical time of Jesus of Nazareth's birth: it was in the spring, most likely in March from the arguments I've heard. I just returned from a Pilgrimage to the Holy Land two days ago, and spoke with the shepherds in Bethlehem (they're still there). Regarding the celebration of the event: The birth of Christ was not considered terribly important in the early Christian church (cf. the Gospels, which spend very little to no time at all describing it and Christ's childhood); the liturgical commemoration of the event was a relatively late arrival and came at roughly the time Christianity became legal. The Church Fathers chose (wisely, I think—and the evidence is overwhelming!) to attach the COMMEMORATION to the pagan feast of SOL INVICTVS "the feast of the unvanquished sun", i.e., the solstice, also the Roman feast of the SATVRNALIA, a week-long revel of gift-giving and general jollifiication. When Christianity moved North into Germanic lands, the solstice still rang true...and we got our evergreens, sun-circle wreaths, holly, ivy, and a bunch of other good stuff we think of as "Christmassy" into the bargain. The Roman Catholic Church took over where the Roman Empire left off—literally!—and used the same very successful method of growth, think of it what you will: they both absorbed and "baptised" what they found, letting people continue to do what they had always done, but giving the actions (or places) new meanings.

Easter, on the other hand, is a set date because it commemorates a particular event whose timing is of crucial importance to Christians (because it is/was of crucial importance to Jews): the date of Passover. This is calculated based on the lunar calendar, which means it is a so-called "movable feast": it can fall anywhere within roughly a month, depending on the phase of the moon. That's ONE way to calculate it! Some Christian churches continue to use the Julian calendar (whose miniscule inaccuracies, adding up over the centuries between Julius Caesar and George the Second of England eventually added up to some two weeks!) making their Easter two weeks or a bit more later than some others. There are other traditional ways to calculate the date...but ALL are aimed at arriving at an exact, annual commemoration of a specific event in the year 30 (probably...)

I'd like to THINK that that makes things clearer; but, honestly, its a big and complex matrix of many different times and cultures interacting and by nature not something that's simple. One thing that IS simple (thank God!) is wishing you and yours a very merry and blessed Christmas!
"Skeet"

HepKitty said:

Rue you could always tell people w/ that bumper sticker that Attis, Mithra, and Horus all had the birthday of 25 Dec and that 3 wise men bringing gifts came from the East in all 3 cases. if I remember correctly, at least 2 were resurrected as well. I suppose you could ask them which is their favorite of the 3 lol

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I'll keep that in mind

The Presbyterians of Scotland considered celebrating Christmans a wicked heathen thing up till the 20th century. The Puritans treated Dec 25th as just another day. People who observed the day in any way were subject to persecution and punishment.

I don't see a problem with wanting to keep Christ in Christmas, if that's what it means to you. I'm of Catholic faith and keep Christ in Christmas for myself and my family. I don't really give a rat's patoot what other folks do and I wish that everyone felt that way, so they'd all leave each other alone lol

[video=youtube_share;f6VfWh1atU4]http://youtu.be/f6VfWh1atU4[/video]

Even as a Christian (one that lives by the text of the Bible rather than the tired dogmas of various denominations), I have conflicting views on the subject of Christmas.

Christ himself never asked that we remember his birth. If you accept the Biblical record, Jesus was born for one purpose: to die and fulfill His dual role to fulfill the Mosaic law simultaneously as both the sin offering and high priest of Israel.

As such, he made one request for remembrance, and that was at the Passover meal prior to his arrest and crucifixion:

Luke 22 said:

15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

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Since no similar requests were made for believers to remember His birth, I don't think that there is any imperative need for a celebration of Christ's birth.

To my knowledge, there was a move in congress to actually remove Christmas from the official list of national holidays in the mid-20th century, because it is the only directly religious one on the calendar, but it had already become too much of an economic tentpole for too many businesses, and was left on the calendar for the sake of the economy.

As far as my own feelings, I enjoy the idea of a "spirit of Christmas" in a peace-on-earth-good-will-toward-mankind sort of way, but I've never been too attached to the holiday myself. The shameless pandering and inescapable advertising sullies the season.

dhermann1 said:

And Easter, of course, being a version of the name of the Mother Goddess, Ishtar or Astarte. The bunnies and eggs and all being pretty flagrant indications of the traditional spring orgies that accompanied early spring equinox celebrations.

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It's only called Easter in English speaking countries. Orthodox Christians call it Pascha.

sheeplady said:

I've always found it interesting that Christmas is a set date; but Easter is not (with some Christian religions celebrating different dates entirely). While I understand that Good Friday/ Easter is supposed to follow Passover, I never understoof why this wasn't a set date as well for Christians. Can someone explain that to me?

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The Orthodox Christian Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after the start of Passover. It's not a set date because Passover isn't a set date. The Last Supper was a Passover seder, so there is clear evidence as to when it occurred, unlike Christmas.

AtomicEraTom said:

I don't see a problem with wanting to keep Christ in Christmas, if that's what it means to you. I'm of Catholic faith and keep Christ in Christmas for myself and my family. I don't really give a rat's patoot what other folks do and I wish that everyone felt that way, so they'd all leave each other alone lol

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My sentiments precisely, Tom (although I'm Baptist, not Catholic).

kamikat said:

The Orthodox Christian Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after the start of Passover. It's not a set date because Passover isn't a set date. The Last Supper was a Passover seder, so there is clear evidence as to when it occurred, unlike Christmas.

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I guess I just don't understand the logic of it, because it probably has more to do with the religious meaning of the two events and their reliance on each other and less the actual day. Technically there was an exact date that Jesus was crucified and an exact date he was resurrected, even if we do not know those exact dates. (I admit it has been over 10 years since I read the new and old testament.) So it must be that there is symbolism between the two; and Easter or Pascha represents the day that Jesus would have been reborn if he were crucified in the current calendar year?

sheeplady said:

I guess I just don't understand the logic of it, because it probably has more to do with the religious meaning of the two events and their reliance on each other and less the actual day. Technically there was an exact date that Jesus was crucified and an exact date he was resurrected, even if we do not know those exact dates. (I admit it has been over 10 years since I read the new and old testament.) So it must be that there is symbolism between the two; and Easter or Pascha represents the day that Jesus would have been reborn if he were crucified in the current calendar year?

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The symbolism is that Jesus is the Passover lamb. You can't have Easter(Pascha) without Passover. The Orthodox Christian Church puts more emphasis on this than the western church, which is why western Easter is not tied to Passover. ORthodox Pascha is ALWAYS after the start of Passover. Western Easter floats all over Spring, based on the lunar cycle, I believe.

That's exactly right. The reason for the difference is that the Eastern church was made up primarily of Jewish converts, who put much more emphasis on Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, while the Western church was primarily converts from various pagan sects, who brought their own traditional practices over into their new faith.

The specific date for Easter in the Western tradition is that it falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, a practice carried over from fertility festivals of pre-Christian times. Passover has nothing to do with that tradition, so the dates rarely coincide.

Thank you ladies for answering my question. I knew that Easter/ Pascha was connected to passover, but I never understood why the eastern and western faiths of Christanity had two different dates. And I learned the term "Pascha!"

Lizzie, for this first time ever I think I have to question something you've said. I believe the eastern church was centered around the Greek speaking part of the Roman world, and the Western church around the Latin. In the east, after Constantine, Christianity became the official state religion. In the west, the old paganism persisted much more strongly. The Pope originally got some of his powers from Consantinople, in order to shore up his influence in Rome.
The original Jerusalem based followers of Jesus always had a dicey relationship with the church that developed among the Gentiles. I don't believe anything remains at all of the original Jewish movement that Jesus founded in Palestine.