Oxford Bags

Qirrel · Apr 18, 2012

Here is something else though. One Harold Acton claims to be the inventor of the oxford bags (seemingly unrelated to the fuzzy trousers), in his "victorian revival":

http://books.google.no/books?id=vuh...redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q="oxford bags"&f=false

Nick D · Apr 18, 2012

Qirrel said:
Surely there were other places in the UK where people wore trousers for "tennis, cricket, and boating purposes".

Everyone and their great aunt knows Oxford. Whether or not the name meant the place of origin or where they were most worn, the prestige of the place probably made it stick in people's minds. The only question was, would it ultimately be Oxford or Cambridge.

Two Types · Apr 18, 2012

Qirrel said:
Here is something else though. One Harold Acton claims to be the inventor of the oxford bags (seemingly unrelated to the fuzzy trousers), in his "victorian revival":

http://books.google.no/books?id=vuh...redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q="oxford bags"&f=false

That is good evidence, but only the word of one man. I would be interested to read what others said about him. In my mind, we need to know more about Acton and his circle of friends. We need to cautious about the claims of one man. After all, any moderately vain man would love to be considered the source of a major period fashion.

What we now need to know is the name of Harold Acton's tailors. If we could trace them, and their records show the changing styles in his trousers, then maybe we will get somewhere.

Then there is the question of why Acton's 'Victorian revival' look goes for wide legged trousers, which were (in my limited knowledge of Victorian/Edwardian clothing) not a popular look - except for rowing/sports use. Maybe Acton was inspired by the same photographs of Oxford rowing crews that have been posted in this thread. That would make his 'Oxford Bags' a direct descendent of the 'Fluffies'.

So how about this for a hypothesis:

Acton has his own Victorian revival.
As part of this, he copies the wide legged trousers worn by 19th century Oxford rowing crews
The modern sportsmen (who already wear 'fluffies' for sports and are used to wearing baggy trousers) then adopt the look.
Everyone else copies them.
Two years later, bags are no longer fashionable but sportsmen continue to wear 'fluffies'.

Two Types · Apr 18, 2012

It might be worth checking out Acton's memoirs: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Memoirs-Aesthete-Harold-Acton/dp/0571247660

I'm afraid it's not on google books, but at least it is in print.

herringbonekid · Apr 18, 2012

Qirrel said:
According to esquires encyclopedia, the original trousers had 22" bottoms, and earlier in this thread, a 1925 source reads "20 to 25" bottoms". 20" and 22" is hardly a "bag" compared to 30s trousers.

no, but it would have been a bag in 1900.

Qirrel said:
... It must be because someone decided to wear them outside a sporting arrangement, or because they decided to get an exaggerated version of the already wide trouser.

yes, that's it. let me recap my theory;

-there was a trouser worn by the Oxford boating team from 1900 on (maybe earlier) made of soft fuzzy fabric for wearing over rowing shorts. the students probably just called them 'bags' because they were very baggy for the time.

-sometime in the mid 20s they were seen by visitors to Oxford who were amazed by them and decided to have a more tailored version made up for about-town wear. the name Oxford bags caught on because that is where the wide fuzzy trousers were seen, and these fashion-examples were emulating the look. (Alan Flusser asserts that these visitors/ copyists were American. that may be true as Americans would want to keep the prestigious name 'Oxford' in the title since they were in thrall to English fashions at the time).

-they (the fashion version, not the fuzzy ones) subsequently became known as the Oxford Bag, and inspired a short lived craze for extreme examples* on campuses.

* short moving clip here: http://www.efootage.com/stock-footage/81443/Oxford_Bags_Trousers_-_HD/

p.s. it's very possible that Oxford (and Cambridge) were the only towns where the fuzzy bags were worn. most English private schools would have had their own very small network of tailors and sports outfitters who worked exclusively for that school or university.

Flat Foot Floey · Apr 18, 2012

The theory with the fluffies is indeed catching.

I still wonder why my german magazine from 1929 tells the fashion trend was in 1927 and would be out of style in 29. It wasn't long enough ago to build up a urban myth?

herringbonekid · Apr 18, 2012

Flat Foot Floey said:
The theory with the fluffies is indeed catching.

fluffy-mania can be dangerous.

Flat Foot Floey said:
I still wonder why my german magazine from 1929 tells the fashion trend was in 1927 and would be out of style in 29. It wasn't long enough ago to build up a urban myth?

the urban-myth part (i think) is what has spread from article to article subsequently ; that they were designed to be worn over plus fours.
of course, if we find a photo of a student pulling a pair on/off over plus fours i will have to retract my entire theory.

Two Types · Apr 18, 2012

Here's a link to the vintage shops in Oxford. http://oxfordstudent.com/2011/10/23/its-vintage-darling/

Who's going to telephone them and ask if they have and 'fluffies' in stock?

Cobden · Apr 18, 2012

Just been to all of them recently, Two Types. No white flannels of any description in Ballroom, nor Uncle Sams (which is a bit more "jeansy"). Unicorn is less a shop and more a great big pile of stuff in a building with a glass front...

Two Types · Apr 18, 2012

Cobden said:
Just been to all of them recently, Two Types. No white flannels of any description in Ballroom, nor Uncle Sams (which is a bit more "jeansy"). Unicorn is less a shop and more a great big pile of stuff in a building with a glass front...

Was thre anything good in any of them? I like the sound of a 'big pile of stuff' - was it good (or at least interesting) stuff?

herringbonekid · Apr 18, 2012

i have a feeling that any remaining original Oxford bags would have been bought in the 80s after the rush of vintage excitement following Brideshead Revisited and Chariots of Fire. if anyone finds any more from old posh wardrobes (or has found some in recent years) chances are it will be Hogspear.

kts68 · Apr 18, 2012

Perhaps this has been proposed before - I can't be sure as I haven't read all posts from the beginning.

The origin of the Oxford Bags dates back to 1924. Gentlemen's attire was at its most fashionable by the wearing of knickers or knickerbockers as some would say.

These were baggy pantaloon type trousers which tapered in and finished at the knee. Long socks and shoes worn below that.

The "plus" designation refered to the length (in inches) of fabric extended below the knee - Plus Fours, Plus Eights et cetera.

In 1924 the wearing of such items by Oxford students was banned by the University.

The Bags were able to be worn over the top of the knickers to allow fashion standards to be "maintained" if necessarily concealed.

herringbonekid · Apr 18, 2012

kts68 said:
In 1924 the wearing of such items by Oxford students was banned by the University.

The Bags were able to be worn over the top of the knickers to allow fashion standards to be "maintained" if necessarily concealed.

yes, that is the official version which is now being politely challenged in this thread.

kts68 · Apr 18, 2012

Well hush my mouth.....

I'll read it properly from the beginning now

Nick D · Apr 18, 2012

herringbonekid said:
if anyone finds any more from old posh wardrobes (or has found some in recent years) chances are it will be Hogspear.

He has had a couple pairs of white trousers up in the past of some width, but I can't remember the texture.

Here are a couple pictures I found on my computer. I don't remember if I got these off auctions or if someone posted them here, unfortunately.

Two Types · Apr 18, 2012

Nick D said:

If you washed these a good few times (or fell in the river whilst training) I could imagine them turning into 'fluffies'.

herringbonekid · Apr 18, 2012

those basically look like cricket (or tennis) flannels. i'm sure that the fabric of the fluffies is a flannel, but more akin to a soft blanket flannel. the soft 'spikes' really remind me of an old blanket.

Cobden · Apr 18, 2012

Two Types said:
Was thre anything good in any of them? I like the sound of a 'big pile of stuff' - was it good (or at least interesting) stuff?

Mainly womens clothing from the seventies, from what I could tell

Nick D, the second pair are the same material (by the looks of it) as my two pairs of sports trousers. Parts not exposed to much wear appear to be knapped, but not hugely so.

I'm also wondering now, if the fluffies are indeed fluffy, or were just they way period cameras rendered flannel, serge or indeed a texture similar to the first pair you posted. Old cameras and processing techniques have a tendency to do some rather odd things (notably certain yellows often appear pitch black).

herringbonekid · Apr 18, 2012

Cobden said:
I'm also wondering now, if the fluffies are indeed fluffy, or were just they way period cameras rendered flannel, serge or indeed a texture similar to the first pair you posted. Old cameras and processing techniques have a tendency to do some rather odd things (notably certain yellows often appear pitch black).

i don't think so... these babies look fluffy: (the trousers, not the ladies)

Fly Boy · Apr 18, 2012

As an aside, if anyone does manage to locate old cricket clothing and equipment - I am very interested.

Oxford Bags

Practically Family

Call Me a Cab

I'll Lock Up

I'll Lock Up

I'll Lock Up

My Mail is Forwarded Here

I'll Lock Up

I'll Lock Up

Practically Family

I'll Lock Up

I'll Lock Up

New in Town

I'll Lock Up

New in Town

Call Me a Cab

I'll Lock Up

I'll Lock Up

Practically Family

I'll Lock Up

One of the Regulars

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