Is chivalry dead?

AmateisGal · Jul 2, 2012

LizzieMaine said:
Equality between genders doesn't mean *literal* physical equality in all things at all times, and the idea that it does or should is ridiculous.

Yep.

John in Covina · Jul 2, 2012

For some people the obvious is not to be acknowledged - in general there is a difference between men and women in both physical abilities and the way we are wired to think.

All the wishing in the world can't change things, if you are blind chances are you're not going to be that airline pilot no matter how hard you try following your dreams.

Undertow · Jul 2, 2012

You know, a good rule of thumb for men could be to treat any woman as one would treat their own sister, mother or grandmother. You would want to open doors for your mom and grandmother; you'd want to help your little sister lift some heavy boxes. It's a fellowship thing, it should reside deep within a man, as instinct.

I'd rather be slapped away from carrying a heavy bag, than to play the rube who stands idly by. [huh]

Gin&Tonics · Jul 3, 2012

John in Covina said:
For some people the obvious is not to be acknowledged - in general there is a difference between men and women in both physical abilities and the way we are wired to think.

All the wishing in the world can't change things, if you are blind chances are you're not going to be that airline pilot no matter how hard you try following your dreams.

The thing that gets me is the inherent contradiction in militant feminism; they don't seem to realize that all their rabid attempts to become exactly the same as men in everything denies that the uniqueness of women has value. Basically without realizing it, they're devaluing what it is to be a woman by demanding that women become men.

Men and women are inexorably different in many ways. In my opinion, this difference is a beautiful thing and was planned specifically by our Creator to make us unique from one another and yet complementary. Women and men have different strengths and abilities, and neither one is better or worse than the other, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Chivalry, at its core, is meant to celebrate and honor this difference by showing reverence for the otherness of women.

HoosierDaddy · Jul 3, 2012

Very well said G&T.
HD

BigFitz · Jul 3, 2012

It's on life support.

AmateisGal · Jul 3, 2012

Gin&Tonics said:
The thing that gets me is the inherent contradiction in militant feminism; they don't seem to realize that all their rabid attempts to become exactly the same as men in everything denies that the uniqueness of women has value. Basically without realizing it, they're devaluing what it is to be a woman by demanding that women become men.

Men and women are inexorably different in many ways. In my opinion, this difference is a beautiful thing and was planned specifically by our Creator to make us unique from one another and yet complementary. Women and men have different strengths and abilities, and neither one is better or worse than the other, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Chivalry, at its core, is meant to celebrate and honor this difference by showing reverence for the otherness of women.

Well said.

Edward · Jul 3, 2012

Gin&Tonics said:
The thing that gets me is the inherent contradiction in militant feminism; they don't seem to realize that all their rabid attempts to become exactly the same as men in everything denies that the uniqueness of women has value. Basically without realizing it, they're devaluing what it is to be a woman by demanding that women become men.

Men and women are inexorably different in many ways. In my opinion, this difference is a beautiful thing and was planned specifically by our Creator to make us unique from one another and yet complementary. Women and men have different strengths and abilities, and neither one is better or worse than the other, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Chivalry, at its core, is meant to celebrate and honor this difference by showing reverence for the otherness of women.

I hear this sort of argument a lot, though typically made as if it is the norm, which it very much is not. If it were, it'd be little better than the sort of "separate but equal" equivocation that has so often been used to support discrimination of many kinds, historically speaking.

William Stratford · Jul 3, 2012

Gin&Tonics said:
The thing that gets me is the inherent contradiction in militant feminism; they don't seem to realize that all their rabid attempts to become exactly the same as men in everything denies that the uniqueness of women has value. Basically without realizing it, they're devaluing what it is to be a woman by demanding that women become men.

Indeed. It was a first rate opportunity to halt the slip into boorishness and encourage men to become gentlemen, when instead, courtesy of Cosmo and its ilk, it became a fast-track to the sex-in-the-city ladette.

Men and women are inexorably different in many ways. In my opinion, this difference is a beautiful thing and was planned specifically by our Creator to make us unique from one another and yet complementary. Women and men have different strengths and abilities, and neither one is better or worse than the other, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Chivalry, at its core, is meant to celebrate and honor this difference by showing reverence for the otherness of women.

Indeed.

LizzieMaine · Jul 3, 2012

I think of the "otherness" of men, myself, but the point is well taken.

I think the idea that all except the most basic physical differences between men and women are socially constructed has been pretty much discredited -- there are substantial differences in brain chemistry between males and females that strongly affect behavior. The thing that really convinced me of this was hearing an lengthy radio interview with a female-to-male transsexual -- who described in detail how pretty much his entire worldview changed when his brain became acclimatized to testosterone. He became, literally, an entirely different person. That's not just a matter of social construction: the hormones changed the way his thought processes worked.

Flicka · Jul 3, 2012

Gin&Tonics said:
Chivalry, at its core, is meant to celebrate and honor this difference by showing reverence for the otherness of women.

I think this pinpoints why I generally don't like the word chivalry. I love it when people are kind and considerate and helpful to others, but I don't generally like to be treated as an Other.

Edward said:
If it were, it'd be little better than the sort of "separate but equal" equivocation that has so often been used to support discrimination of many kinds, historically speaking.

Yes, separate but equal does have bad track record.

And no, I don't think "women should become men". I think women - and men - should be whatever they like to be as long as they are nice and show particular care for those smaller and weaker than themselves, be they women, men, children or puppies. But then I'm an individualist and all that, so you know I'm an agent for the dark side anyway.

Red Diabla · Jul 3, 2012

Gin&Tonics said:
The thing that gets me is the inherent contradiction in militant feminism; they don't seem to realize that all their rabid attempts to become exactly the same as men in everything denies that the uniqueness of women has value. Basically without realizing it, they're devaluing what it is to be a woman by demanding that women become men.

Men and women are inexorably different in many ways. In my opinion, this difference is a beautiful thing and was planned specifically by our Creator to make us unique from one another and yet complementary. Women and men have different strengths and abilities, and neither one is better or worse than the other, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Chivalry, at its core, is meant to celebrate and honor this difference by showing reverence for the otherness of women.

I guess I'm not a militant feminist, because I don't want women to be the same as men. But I do think women should be given the same opportunities as men and not have wage disparities for working the same jobs. That's part of where feminism started, and I don't think that's a horrible thing at all.

For what it's worth, I've opened many a door for many a man, because I happened to be there first. It should be less about "chivalry" and more about "common courtesy". I don't want to be treated nice just because of my gender, but because it's just...the nice thing to do for ANYONE.

RD

Flicka · Jul 3, 2012

Red Diabla said:
It should be less about "chivalry" and more about "common courtesy". I don't want to be treated nice just because of my gender, but because it's just...the nice thing to do for ANYONE.

Absolutely.

Gin&Tonics · Jul 4, 2012

Flicka said:
I think this pinpoints why I generally don't like the word chivalry. I love it when people are kind and considerate and helpful to others, but I don't generally like to be treated as an Other.

What's wrong with being other than someone else? I don't mean to imply complete and total otherness, like an alien or something, but let's be honest, men and women are very, very different in many ways. There is a certain uniqueness to each gender that the other simply cannot completely fathom, but what's wrong with that? Personally, I think it only adds to the mystery and beauty of the relationship between men and women.

I acknowledge that YMMV of course, but that's how I see it. For what it's worth, I have a very individualistic outlook on things for the most part too, which is why I celebrate the difference between men and women.

Gin&Tonics · Jul 4, 2012

Red Diabla said:
I guess I'm not a militant feminist, because I don't want women to be the same as men. But I do think women should be given the same opportunities as men and not have wage disparities for working the same jobs. That's part of where feminism started, and I don't think that's a horrible thing at all.

I completely agree with this sentiment. There's nothing chivalrous about denying women the same opportunities as men; it's simply unfair. Regardless of gender, race, or religious persuasion, the law should apply equally to everyone, and by extension the workforce must judge a person based on their individual merit, not on any other principle. Of course this rarely ever happens to either women OR men, but that's perhaps another discussion.

I definitely acknowledge that the beginning of feminism had its roots in flagrant unfairness toward women in many respects (one thinks of the early suffrage movement during the late 19th and early 20th centuries), and I would never dream of impugning the worthiness of those struggles. My point is only that like so many other movements and ideologies it has now been carried too far by some who are, in my opinion, doing more to devalue and undermine women than their original opponents ever did. Hence why I said militant feminism, to differentiate that extreme strain from others and avoid painting too broad a stroke.

BigFitz · Jul 4, 2012

LizzieMaine said:
I think of the "otherness" of men, myself, but the point is well taken.

I think the idea that all except the most basic physical differences between men and women are socially constructed has been pretty much discredited -- there are substantial differences in brain chemistry between males and females that strongly affect behavior. The thing that really convinced me of this was hearing an lengthy radio interview with a female-to-male transsexual -- who described in detail how pretty much his entire worldview changed when his brain became acclimatized to testosterone. He became, literally, an entirely different person. That's not just a matter of social construction: the hormones changed the way his thought processes worked.

I saw a tv program awhile back that had a segment about a woman who had started taking hormones to become a man. She explained how her agression went way up as well as her "desire" and wondered to herself "how do men deal with being like this all the time?"

$ally · Jul 5, 2012

A few months ago I had to take a city bus (something I avoid) in a small midwestern college town. A young man, around my sons age, stood up and offered me his seat so I wouldn't have to stand. That was just simple respect. He was being considerate of another passengers comfort. I love that sort of thing. It's what I miss when I am in Phoenix.

Stewart Field · Jul 6, 2013

LizzieMaine said:
What it all boils down to is that if you use changes in society as an excuse for acting like a jackass, you really *are* a jackass. "Chivalry" is just a fancy-pants word for common courtesy.

Truer words were never spoken.

BR Gordon · Jul 6, 2013

When my wife and I travel we use the subway systems, if available. Universally, if the cars are full, my wife is offered a seat. This applies every where we've been. In other regards we see discourtesy or bad manners every day.

Appreciate what curtesy you can find and shrug off the other.

angeljenny · Jul 6, 2013

A very kind man helped me to open a bottle of fizzy pop today - really grateful as it has been a really hot day. Plus he didn't laugh at me for being a wimp!

I like the idea of chivalry. It is like politeness plus a little allowance for most men being stronger than most women.

Is chivalry dead?

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