Why older homes are safer from fires

PrettySquareGal · Nov 2, 2012

Interesting article:

For generations, firefighters’ first priority on arriving at a burning home was to “ventilate” the house — opening the roof and smashing the upper windows to let smoke escape. They had, on average, 17 minutes to get anyone inside out of the building before they succumbed to smoke inhalation.

But modern construction and furnishing materials are changing the game for rescuers. In today’s fires, the synthetic materials used in walls and furniture burn hotter and faster, leaving firemen with only four or five minutes of rescue time.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/14/hotter-and-faster-how-to-fight-a-modern-fire/#ixzz2B5hhkjCh

I didn't see asbestos mentioned in the article; I wonder how much that contributed to the results.

In any case it's another good reason to live and buy vintage!

sheeplady · Nov 2, 2012

I really wonder what in new synthetic materials are considered to burn faster... especially since they state that it is predominately seen since the 1980s. So it can't be Sheetrock or cellulose insulation, so I am wondering if it is referring to foam insulation? I do understand the furniture argument, but I'd be curious about the actual materials used in construction.

As far as the construction of the house itself, some of the older buildings do have less safe designs. For example, balloon framing is lacking the fire blocks used in more modern construction which means that the space between each stud acts like a chimney, drawing a fire up from the cellar to the attic without any wood to slow the burn (because it is air space that sucks the fire upwards but also downwards). There are remedies for that (adding blocking for instance), however, that a homeowner can do.

SHOWSOMECLASS · Nov 2, 2012

Upon arrival at the scene the first rig will do a size up on the radio. What is the size, occupancy, construction type and the bldg. material of the structure and roof.
Following the above N.Y. test scenario's the FF's knew what the room contents were made of and were able to perform their tests in a laboratory type envrionment.
That said, FF's have no idea what the rooms contents is nor what material is burning. Time and again its a mixture of whatever the tenant has hauled in to use as furniture along w/ garbage bags full of dirty clothes and who knows what else. In addition 99% of the time FF's can see absolutely nothing until the fire is extinguished and the smoke is cleared from the involved area using forced positive pressure ventilation.
Firefighting is nothing like TV.
Reality is: stumbling around in a pitch black, hot, smokey room.
Certainly this would make a very boring TV show. Reality is this what fighting a real fire is like.
Thus the sad reality is movies are made of trapped FF's sitting their thinking of family hoping to be rescued.
In actuality we die due to:
>heart attack due to stress
>cancer from years of carcinogen exposure
>trauma
>run out of air
>flash over fire

JonnyO · Nov 2, 2012

The construction of older homes is known to be much safer compared to newer construction for firemen during a fire. There is the balloon frame construction in older homes with lack of fire stops but with proper firefighting tactics that can be remedied. Looking at newer construction, you have very lightweight construction included manufactured floor and roof trusses made with glues and thin pieces of sheet metal compared to your traditional nails. Older homes have a lot of "open spaces" that allow the house to breath, they aren't as well insulated as the newer homes. These new homes are insulated up the rear because of the "energy efficient" movement. This movement has brought spray foams, different types of insulation, newer types of windows, etc. compared to your traditional type of insulation or in even older homes newspaper or straw behind the lathe and plaster. Getting inside of the house a lot of the furniture isn't just wood and nails anymore, there is a lot of glue and compressed particle board being used along with plastics and other synthetics. Fires have never been more dangerous for firemen.

BigFitz · Nov 2, 2012

SHOWSOMECLASS said:
Upon arrival at the scene the first rig will do a size up on the radio. What is the size, occupancy, construction type and the bldg. material of the structure and roof. Following the above N.Y. test scenario's the FF's knew what the room contents were made of and were able to perform their tests in a laboratory type envrionment. That said, FF's have no idea what the rooms contents is nor what material is burning. Time and again its a mixture of whatever the tenant has hauled in to use as furniture along w/ garbage bags full of dirty clothes and who knows what else. In addition 99% of the time FF's can see absolutely nothing until the fire is extinguished and the smoke is cleared from the involved area using forced positive pressure ventilation. Firefighting is nothing like TV. Stumbling around in a pitch black, hot, smokey room would make a very boring TV show. But makes a much more challenging reality.

Kurt Russell in "Backdraft". Open turnout coat, no SCBA, kid conscious coming through the flames.

It's the stumbling around in the dark that's the most fun, don't you think? That and advancing the line around corners and up the stairs.

sheeplady · Nov 2, 2012

JonnyO said:
The construction of older homes is known to be much safer compared to newer construction for firemen during a fire. There is the balloon frame construction in older homes with lack of fire stops but with proper firefighting tactics that can be remedied. Looking at newer construction, you have very lightweight construction included manufactured floor and roof trusses made with glues and thin pieces of sheet metal compared to your traditional nails. Older homes have a lot of "open spaces" that allow the house to breath, they aren't as well insulated as the newer homes. These new homes are insulated up the rear because of the "energy efficient" movement. This movement has brought spray foams, different types of insulation, newer types of windows, etc. compared to your traditional type of insulation or in even older homes newspaper or straw behind the lathe and plaster. Getting inside of the house a lot of the furniture isn't just wood and nails anymore, there is a lot of glue and compressed particle board being used along with plastics and other synthetics. Fires have never been more dangerous for firemen.

What do you (or others here) think about cellulose insulation? How does that impact a fire? Anybody have any experiences with that?

Bruce Wayne · Nov 2, 2012

They add flame retardent chemicals to cellulose insulation to stop flames from spreading.

sheeplady · Nov 2, 2012

Bruce Wayne said:
They add flame retardent chemicals to cellulose insulation to stop flames from spreading.

What I am curious about is if a house has dense packed cellulose, is that better or worse than say nothing for insulation in a fire situation? What is the tradeoff between the breathing effect versus the fire retardant effect of the cellulose?

vitanola · Nov 3, 2012

sheeplady said:
What do you (or others here) think about cellulose insulation? How does that impact a fire? Anybody have any experiences with that?

After our carriage house burned, the Fire Marshall claimed that the cellulose insulation in the walls and ceiling prevented a total loss. As bad as the fire was we could have restored the building were it not for the fact that the foundation would have had to have been brought up to current code, at considerable expense.

It was explained to us that the cellulose insulation is an excellent fireblock, which is especially important in ceiling and wall cavities in buildings of balloon construction. In a fire, the cellulose blocks the flues which otherwise would exist in the hollow spaces of the building, and when thehose-pipe is played on the conflagration, cellulose in a ceiling absorbs great quantities of water, becomes very heavy, and pulls doen the burning ceiling structure so that it may be extinguished.

When renovating our new little cottage I've put cellulose into all of the ceilings and interior walls, in addition to the exterior walls. the cost was nominal, and the insulation increases fire safety tremendously. An added advantage is that when combined with the wet plaster walls and ceilings a filled wall is quite dead, and does not transmit sound to any extent.

vitanola · Nov 3, 2012

vitanola said:
After our carriage house burned, the Fire Marshall claimed that the cellulose insulation in the walls and ceiling prevented a total loss. As bad as the fire was we could have restored the building were it not for the fact that the foundation would have had to have been brought up to current code, at considerable expense.

It was explained to us that the cellulose insulation is an excellent fireblock, which is especially important in ceiling and wall cavities in buildings of balloon construction. In a fire, the cellulose blocks the flues which otherwise would exist in the hollow spaces of the building, and when thehose-pipe is played on the conflagration, cellulose in a ceiling absorbs great quantities of water, becomes very heavy, and pulls doen the burning ceiling structure so that it may be extinguished.

When renovating our new little cottage I've put cellulose into all of the ceilings and interior walls, in addition to the exterior walls. the cost was nominal, and the insulation increases fire safety tremendously. An added advantage is that when combined with the wet plaster walls and ceilings a filled wall is quite dead, and does not transmit sound to any extent.

Note that with cellulose, as with any insulation used in an old house, a proper vapor barrier must be installed on the inside surface of all exterior walls and undernneath all ceilings which are immediately under the roodf level.

SHOWSOMECLASS · Nov 3, 2012

BigFitz said:
Kurt Russell in "Backdraft". Open turnout coat, no SCBA, kid conscious coming through the flames.

It's the stumbling around in the dark that's the most fun, don't you think? That and advancing the line around corners and up the stairs.

On this day Engine 5 was working a fire in a single room basement as usual it was pitch dark and really hot. Near the seat of the fire, I kept banging my helmet on something as I knocked down flare ups above me w/ the line. After all the smoke cleared, I could see I was standing below a refrigerator. It had partially fallen through the kitchen floor upstairs. By all accounts one part was still on the first floor and the other portion suspended below the basement ceiling.
That place is now a vacant lot.

sheeplady · Nov 3, 2012

vitanola said:
After our carriage house burned, the Fire Marshall claimed that the cellulose insulation in the walls and ceiling prevented a total loss. As bad as the fire was we could have restored the building were it not for the fact that the foundation would have had to have been brought up to current code, at considerable expense.

It was explained to us that the cellulose insulation is an excellent fireblock, which is especially important in ceiling and wall cavities in buildings of balloon construction. In a fire, the cellulose blocks the flues which otherwise would exist in the hollow spaces of the building, and when thehose-pipe is played on the conflagration, cellulose in a ceiling absorbs great quantities of water, becomes very heavy, and pulls doen the burning ceiling structure so that it may be extinguished.

When renovating our new little cottage I've put cellulose into all of the ceilings and interior walls, in addition to the exterior walls. the cost was nominal, and the insulation increases fire safety tremendously. An added advantage is that when combined with the wet plaster walls and ceilings a filled wall is quite dead, and does not transmit sound to any extent.

Ok, thank you. This helps immensely. My husband and I are looking to eventually insulate our new home, which is part timber and part balloon construction. The foams I am not crazy about (we have a few applications where we have to use it) and so cellulose was looking like our best option. Having it be more fire resistant (not sure if that is the right term, but if it means it will slow a fire down) is a bonus. We'll be several miles away from a volunteer fire department (thankfully there is one), and although I care about the building, I care that the family gets out more. It was recommended to us that we put in the blocking in any exposed walls that we open, but we can't do that for the walls we are not going to open, and cellulose would kill two birds with one stone.

JonnyO · Nov 3, 2012

sheeplady said:
What do you (or others here) think about cellulose insulation? How does that impact a fire? Anybody have any experiences with that?

As other stated, wont really add to the fire load, it will keep it conatined. When you have voids that allow the "breathing", they assist in the spread of fire, the cellulose should help fill those voids.

SHOWSOMECLASS · Nov 3, 2012

Really,
If your house is up to code,
has correctly placed fire alarms,
using safe practices in the kitchen and laundry (grease & lint fires),
no auxiliary heat or light source, (candles & kerosene) you should never see the FD.
Most people who care about their house never have a fire.
Rarely for those that do, it is a single room and contents fire only affecting the room where the fire started.

Mr_D. · Nov 3, 2012

sheeplady said:
I really wonder what in new synthetic materials are considered to burn faster... especially since they state that it is predominately seen since the 1980s. So it can't be Sheetrock or cellulose insulation, so I am wondering if it is referring to foam insulation? I do understand the furniture argument, but I'd be curious about the actual materials used in construction.

Plastics, chemicals in the newer stuff, all kinds of factors to make it burn faster.

I just finished several firefighting classes, (a lot more to go) one of the things we learned was that back in the day a structure fire would double in size every 60 seconds. Today a fire will multiply by 5 in 60 seconds.

These newer materials are also why it is more important now for use to wear air packs. The toxic fumes. HCN (Hydrogen cyanide) can kill a person in less then 1 min if inhaled.

SHOWSOMECLASS said:
Upon arrival at the scene the first rig will do a size up on the radio. What is the size, occupancy, construction type and the bldg. material of the structure and roof.
Following the above N.Y. test scenario's the FF's knew what the room contents were made of and were able to perform their tests in a laboratory type envrionment.
That said, FF's have no idea what the rooms contents is nor what material is burning. Time and again its a mixture of whatever the tenant has hauled in to use as furniture along w/ garbage bags full of dirty clothes and who knows what else. In addition 99% of the time FF's can see absolutely nothing until the fire is extinguished and the smoke is cleared from the involved area using forced positive pressure ventilation.
Firefighting is nothing like TV.
Reality is: stumbling around in a pitch black, hot, smokey room.
Certainly this would make a very boring TV show. Reality is this what fighting a real fire is like.
Thus the sad reality is movies are made of trapped FF's sitting their thinking of family hoping to be rescued.
In actuality we die due to:
>heart attack due to stress
>cancer from years of carcinogen exposure
>trauma
>run out of air
>flash over fire

This is true to a point. If properly trained, a firefighter can read smoke upon arrival and make a very close guess as to what is burning. Not like what the items are, but they can tell if it is wood/paper, plastics, fabrics, ect.

SHOWSOMECLASS said:
Really,
If your house is up to code,
has correctly placed fire alarms,
using safe practices in the kitchen and laundry (grease & lint fires),
no auxiliary heat or light source, (candles & kerosene) you should never see the FD.
Most people who care about their house never have a fire.
Rarely for those that do, it is a single room and contents fire only affecting the room where the fire started.

Depends on the code. Older homes/buildings are grandfathered in. Example. In North Carolina, Public Schools are NOT required to have sprinkler systems if the school is under a certain sq foot size. So NONE of the school sin my area, including the rather large college, have sprinklers. My house is only required to have a smoke alarm one on each floor. NEW codes require one in each bed room, in the hallway and living area, and each floor.

PrettySquareGal · Nov 3, 2012

SHOWSOMECLASS said:
Really,
If your house is up to code,
has correctly placed fire alarms,
using safe practices in the kitchen and laundry (grease & lint fires),
no auxiliary heat or light source, (candles & kerosene) you should never see the FD.
Most people who care about their house never have a fire.
Rarely for those that do, it is a single room and contents fire only affecting the room where the fire started.

Unless of course:

You have a newer product that catches fire, which happens quite frequently with the shoddy quality of today's appliances and electrical items. Don't believe it? Check products recalls for the US. By the way, note most if not all were made in China.

You overload your circuits with modern appliances like a microwave on older wiring that is up to code but not designed for modern day power draws. Older wires can't withstand the same level of heat as today's.

You have a new smart meter installed improperly by the utility. Google "smart meter" and "fires"

Your neighbor sets off fireworks and starts a quickly moving brush fire that crosses their property lines and starts a fire on your property

Arson

Mice chewing through wires creating a short

And on the list goes.

Always keep fire extinguishers in your house, rated for all types of fires. Class A extinguishers are used on fires involving ordinary combustibles, such as wood, cloth, and paper. Class B extinguishers are used on fires involving liquids, greases, and gases. Class C extinguishers are used on fires involving energized electrical equipment. Class D extinguishers are used on fires involving metals such as magnesium, titanium, zirconium, sodium, and potassium.

PrettySquareGal · Nov 3, 2012

JonnyO said:
As other stated, wont really add to the fire load, it will keep it conatined. When you have voids that allow the "breathing", they assist in the spread of fire, the cellulose should help fill those voids.

Hi JonnyO, thanks for the information.

BigFitz · Nov 3, 2012

JonnyO said:
As other stated, wont really add to the fire load, it will keep it conatined. When you have voids that allow the "breathing", they assist in the spread of fire, the cellulose should help fill those voids.

It can also make a fine mess during overhaul.

BigFitz · Nov 3, 2012

SHOWSOMECLASS said:
On this day Engine 5 was working a fire in a single room basement as usual it was pitch dark and really hot. Near the seat of the fire, I kept banging my helmet on something as I knocked down flare ups above me w/ the line. After all the smoke cleared, I could see I was standing below a refrigerator. It had partially fallen through the kitchen floor upstairs. By all accounts one part was still on the first floor and the other portion suspended below the basement ceiling.
That place is now a vacant lot.

I've "put out" a television before after seeing the glow through the smoke.

One time I "put out" an electric space heater! Well, hey now, Sparky!:eeek:

JonnyO · Nov 3, 2012

BigFitz said:
It can also make a fine mess during overhaul.

Thats for damn sure

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