Are you ever tired of explaining why you live or dress the way you do?

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

Also, people generally don't change much but the social barriers that keep us from misbehaving get higher and lower in certain eras.
All the bad things that happened then happen today as well.
I've done research into incest, pedophilia, teen pregnancy, rape, it happened in the 1930s as well as it has been happening for centuries.
Some things don't change, some things do.
Some things get worse, some get better.

Salty O'Rourke · Jan 14, 2013

missjo said:
As for getting arrested for dating certain women, not sure what that means, but perhaps it would have been idea to catch a Zeppelin to Europe.

That's a reference to anti-miscegenation laws that existed in many states of the USA, some of which weren't repealed until the 1960s. I doubt I would have been able to afford transatlantic travel in the 30s but in any event, I think I would have preferred to remain stateside after 1938 or so.

LizzieMaine · Jan 14, 2013

You'd have been welcome in Maine. We repealed our anti-miscegenation law in 1883.

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

Salty O'Rourke said:
That's a reference to anti-miscegenation laws that existed in many states of the USA, some of which weren't repealed until the 1960s. I doubt I would have been able to afford transatlantic travel in the 30s but in any event, I think I would have preferred to remain stateside after 1938 or so.

Well that only proofs that looking at the past is not just a historical thing but also a regional thing.
Dating a black guy would have given me as a woman in 1930s Amsterdam less problems then dating a communist or protestant.
Not saying there was no racism, but compared to the situation in America, things were a LOT better in Europe, especially in the big cities.
According to some of my elderly Jewish friends there was less racism towards them before the war then there is today.
Big cities like Rotterdam, Amsterdam but also Paris and Berlin were pretty decent for black people, even in Nazi Germany black people had it relatively easy for quite a long time.
Would I want to live in 1930s Mississippi?
No thank you.
But 1930s Amsterdam, London or Paris?
Or 1920s Berlin?
Yes please.

CaramelSmoothie · Jan 14, 2013

LizzieMaine said:
You'd have been welcome in Maine. We repealed our anti-miscegenation law in 1883.

What's funny about anti-miscegenation laws is that it encouraged the very thing it was supposed to prevent. Whenever you have one group holding power over a powerless group, miscegenation is the very first thing that's going to happen because the powerful group will then take advantage financially, morally and yes, sexually, of that powerless group.

fashion frank · Jan 14, 2013

rue said:
My mother thinks the same thing lol

In reality, it's just that I think women looked better in those days, more feminine, if you will. I feel at home in my clothes and much better than I ever did when I was wearing the modern looking stuff to fit in. You also can't beat the prices and quality

As far as the lifestyle, I was raised this way.

Boy I agree with this statement .
I am always pointing out to my wife when we are out " hey look another woman in sweatpants and hair in a ponytail" or we count how many women that are dressed properly and hair done and we will be lucky if it ever gets over the count of five.

Also as an aside my wife now has a curler set (hot) and will now not go out with out looking good because of me , it's kinda funny.

All the Best , Fashion Frank

LizzieMaine · Jan 14, 2013

Indeed.

People here, generally speaking, were less concerned with the specifics of marrying within your racial or ethnic group than they were with marrying your social equivalent -- and while that can carry a lot of racial and ethnic baggage given the way society goes, it wasn't as clear-cut as people try to make it in retrospect. People here tended to disapprove of marriages across class lines more than anything else -- and as someone who did that and never felt comfortable with the results, I can understand the reasoning behind it.

I knew an elderly couple in my hometown who were in a "mixed marriage," and it was something nobody ever said much of anything about -- some people might have muttered (as some people will still do today) but nobody ever gave them grief to their faces. She was white, and he was a very dark-skinned Mashpee Indian, who was assumed by most people to be black. People might look twice upon first meeting them, because any person of color was and is a rarity here, but after that it wasn't considered much of an issue.

The one mixed marriage that is still absolutely taboo in New England is for a Red Sox fan to marry a Yankee fan. "But how will you bring up the kids!" is the big question.

Salty O'Rourke · Jan 14, 2013

missjo said:
According to some of my elderly Jewish friends there was less racism towards them before the war then there is today.

Be careful of putting too much stock in such remembrances. There are many similar quotes by ex-slaves that extolled life in bondage as opposed to the struggles after freedom came. I don't believe for one minute that they would have preferred slavery. The lesson is that 1) people tend to blot out the bad and remember the good 2) people, especially members of social or ethnic minorities, often couch things in terms that will not offend, or assuage the guilt of, the interviewer 3) Most people who experienced the anti-semitism, anti-Gypsy, anti-homosexual, anti-communist laws and customs in Europe as adults are no longer with us (and many more never lived to adulthood) - those old people you know were kids in the 30s.

PrettySquareGal · Jan 14, 2013

In my life I take the best of the past and bring it into my present life. We all live in the present; some of us are just better at taking charge of how we think and feel, and managing the setting (homes) in which we can truly be ourselves. It's not a stage or props or role-playing. It's who I am and what I believe in. Convictions. Style.

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

Salty O'Rourke said:
Be careful of putting too much stock in such remembrances. There are many similar quotes by ex-slaves that extolled life in bondage as opposed to the struggles after freedom came. I don't believe for one minute that they would have preferred slavery. The lesson is that 1) people tend to blot out the bad and remember the good 2) people, especially members of social or ethnic minorities, often couch things in terms that will not offend, or assuage the guilt of, the interviewer 3) Most people who experienced the anti-semitism, anti-Gypsy, anti-homosexual, anti-communist laws and customs in Europe as adults are no longer with us (and many more never lived to adulthood) - those old people you know were kids in the 30s.

It fits very well with other historical sources.
Many Jews in 1930s Holland lived like everyone else and experience no or little discrimination, or at the worst they were as much discriminated against as any other side of society, communists hated socialists, catholics looked down on protestants, etc, etc.
Because society was so divided everyone was part of a group that was disliked by another group.
I have done a lot of research into this and pretty much all souces describe a society where they fitted in very well and where they felt welcome.
German Jews who escaped Germany often wrote about how free and welcome they felt in Holland... except by other Jews.
Yes the people I spoke to in person were young back then but they know I am a serious historian and they really don't care about my sensitivities and don't hold back to be negative about Dutch society during the war.
But there are more sources then just talking to a few elderly people.
Being a Jew in 1930s Amsterdam for many involved less racism then it does in 2013 Amsterdam, just like homosexuals had it easier a few decades ago then they do today.

Salty O'Rourke · Jan 14, 2013

missjo said:
It fits very well with other historical sources.
Many Jews in 1930s Holland lived like everyone else and experience no or little discrimination, or at the worst they were as much discriminated against as any other side of society, communists hated socialists, catholics looked down on protestants, etc, etc.
Because society was so divided everyone was part of a group that was disliked by another group.
I have done a lot of research into this and pretty much all souces describe a society where they fitted in very well and where they felt welcome.
German Jews who escaped Germany often wrote about how free and welcome they felt in Holland... except by other Jews.
Yes the people I spoke to in person were young back then but they know I am a serious historian and they really don't care about my sensitivities and don't hold back to be negative about Dutch society during the war.
But there are more sources then just talking to a few elderly people.
Being a Jew in 1930s Amsterdam for many involved less racism then it does in 2013 Amsterdam, just like homosexuals had it easier a few decades ago then they do today.

No one knows for sure who turned them in, but I'm pretty sure the Frank family wasn't betrayed by Jews, or Germans.

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

Salty O'Rourke said:
No one knows for sure who turned them in, but I'm pretty sure the Frank family wasn't betrayed by Jews, or Germans.

Nobody knows, they may not even have been betrayed (on purpose).

V.C. Brunswick · Jan 14, 2013

missjo said:
Nobody knows, they may not even have been betrayed (on purpose).

It's generally believed that Anne Frank's family were discovered and subsquently betrayed when the premises were burglarized -- one of three burglaries that occurred during their time in the Secret Annexe.

LoveMyHats2 · Jan 14, 2013

V.C. Brunswick said:
It's generally believed that Anne Frank's family were discovered and subsquently betrayed when the premises were burglarized -- one of three burglaries that occurred during their time in the Secret Annexe.

That has always been my take on the topic. One can look at history from so many viewpoints. I have family in Germany, as my family heritage is German. They have lived in the same area for over 200 years, and on one parcel of land (one branch of the family) for over 135 years. I was merely 19 years old when I was afforded to make a connection with those relatives, the topic of the war surfaced as I was a member of the military at the time. For them personally, they lived in fear regardless of their being of German blood, and felt very helpless of most things that took place.

History will always remind us of good and bad in all areas of mankind. I think it is most wonderful that we can decide to do good towards others and be a positive part of life.

I have not had too many people ask me why I dress nicely when I am out in public, or to explain it,but I do have people ask me where I purchase my hats, suits, etc., and openly seek to be able to "mimic" my attire for want to own something similar. It does make me smile a bit, and at times honestly you have to address the issue they may not find something exact as you are in ownership, but enjoy directing them into where they may start a search for finding hats or other vintage attire, and accessories.

There have been a few times at the Bank or Store that someone had directed a question as to what special occasion ongoing that would require my being so well dressed, I simply reply no special reason other than to celebrate life. Those times have been so far, very few that anyone has asked.

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

V.C. Brunswick said:
It's generally believed that Anne Frank's family were discovered and subsquently betrayed when the premises were burglarized -- one of three burglaries that occurred during their time in the Secret Annexe.

There is really no way to say who betrayed them and how this traitor found out about them.
Some sources claim that the message even told the Germans how many Jews there were, that is something a burglar would not have known.
A burglar could have told the Germans about there being 'someone' in the building at night, but not that there were Jews hiding there.
But all we know is that the SD got a 'message' about Jews hiding in the annex, we're not even sure about what kind of message they got, let alone who send it to them.
We may never know.

Either way, the Frank family felt very welcome when they first came to the Netherlands, felt like Dutch people, made friends, fitted in and didn't experience much antisemitism before the war, as far as we know.

CaramelSmoothie · Jan 14, 2013

LoveMyHats2 said:
There have been a few times at the Bank or Store that someone had directed a question as to what special occasion ongoing that would require my being so well dressed, I simply reply no special reason other than to celebrate life.

I like that response!

Salty O'Rourke · Jan 14, 2013

V.C. Brunswick said:
It's generally believed that Anne Frank's family were discovered and subsquently betrayed when the premises were burglarized -- one of three burglaries that occurred during their time in the Secret Annexe.

I visited the Frank museum last year and don't recall that theory being espoused. Apparently Mr. Frank suspected a specific person of turning them in for the reward but could never prove it.

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

Salty O'Rourke said:
I visited the Frank museum last year and don't recall that theory being espoused. Apparently Mr. Frank suspected a specific person of turning them in for the reward but could never prove it.

Nobody can prove it.
The National Institute for War studies did a lot of very detailed research (especially after some American writer wrote a book claiming she knew who did it) and their conclusion is that we just don't know who betrayed them.
As many of the SD archives were destroyed we will probably never even know what the message said.

sheeplady · Jan 14, 2013

As far as people living farther in the past, I've met a couple of people who live on homesteads that do it. No electric, make their own clothes, wear the clothing, eat like they did then...etc. They do tend to drive cars occasionally. They really are no different than the Amish, other than the relious aspects of being Amish.

missjo · Jan 14, 2013

Sounds excellent.
I like the idea of living like the Amish but am not at all keen on religion.

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