This Made Me Feel Guilty About Wearing Fur Felt Hats

-30- said:

"I dont' think the issue is that we raise and use animals but how we're doing it."
QUOTE: Feraud.

You are mistaken in that the entire "Animal Industry" is the target of peta, not just inhumane treatment of same.

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Peta is targeting the entire animal industry. We aren't Peta. Expressing disgust for the fur trade in China is not the same as endorsing Peta.

I do like their nudie ads, though... Hehehe.

Here in China there has always been a superabundance of people. It is a cultural norm to see everything in the world as a potential resource for people to use. There is a refreshing honesty to this. But it does mean you daily confront the brute realities of your own existence.

Seafood restaurants look like aquariums, because your dinner is swimming until it is cooked to order. This assures freshness. You see similar scenes of caged animals in front of some eateries, not unlike the rats Calvin Trillin was served. When I was out for a run two days ago I got to see a restaurant owner and his son slaughtering a chicken in the street one block from my apartment. They did it in the street so that the blood could run into the drain in the gutter. Grim, but efficient. Their restaurant is "halal," the Muslim equivalent of "kosher," so they are following strict guidelines, even if it would look pretty strange in Chicago or Dallas. (By the way, on the next block is a guy who raises chickens here in the city center. I see them walking around on the sidewalk in front of his apartment.) People here in Shanghai can't pretend that beef originates in a styrofoam tray at the supermarket.

Of course, whether I eat chicken, potatoes, corn, or mushrooms, a living thing is sacrificed so that I might eat. There is no free lunch. All life must feed on other life.

I do find it disturbing when I see leopard furs for sale on the sidewalk. I was equal parts fascinated and repelled at the traditional medicine museum, exploring the displays of rhino and tiger parts with the explanations of their health benefits. But my distaste is due to the fact that these are endangered wild species. If we farmed rhinos or tigers, I wouldn't feel as badly about these uses.

I certainly doubt anyone here would want animals to suffer needlessly. But since the time of the Flintstones humans have used animal products to clothe themselves. I don't see that as unreasonable. We should seek the most humane, clean, and safe methods to get the animal products we need (and want), be they fur, food, leather, or medicines.

This is a weird question, but why are we able to shave sheep, but not shave bunnies or (ahem) beavers? Do the rodents fail to re-grow their hair? Could Rogaine help? In the case of wild hares and beavers, I can imagine that a bald animal would have trouble surviving in their natural habitat. However, we farm minks. Could we effectively raise these other fur-bearing creatures on a farm that allowed them to rehabilitate after shearing?

I've often wondered about the shaving vs. skinning thing. Maybe someone here has some insight on this question.

Sorry to ramble so long.
Andrew

casechopper said:

My personal view is that I want an animal to die as painlessly as possible.

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I think this is a sentiment most of us here share.

Mulceber said:

Peta is targeting the entire animal industry. We aren't Peta. Expressing disgust for the fur trade in China is not the same as endorsing Peta.

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Exactly.
PETA is no different from any other group and liable to human folly.
The point expressed by the OP is watching the video gives him a feeling of guilt as to how the fur is processed. It's a valid emotional response.

I don't see the logic in shooting the messenger, in this case PETA. Personally I support some of their positions but not all of them. I will gladly dispose of the bathwater while keeping the baby.

KingAndrew said:

This is a weird question, but why are we able to shave sheep, but not shave bunnies or (ahem) beavers? Do the rodents fail to re-grow their hair? Could Rogaine help? In the case of wild hares and beavers, I can imagine that a bald animal would have trouble surviving in their natural habitat. However, we farm minks. Could we effectively raise these other fur-bearing creatures on a farm that allowed them to rehabilitate after shearing?

I've often wondered about the shaving vs. skinning thing. Maybe someone here has some insight on this question.

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I've actually wondered the same thing.

Actually, all this time (before seeing the video) I thought that rabbits were shaved. Although I know they are killed, I just assumed they were just shaved and the meat processed for eating (or something like that). But I was just thinking in hat terms and not fur coats.

Interesting...

"I do like their nudie ads, though... Hehehe."
QUOTE: fenris.

You do realise that is The Hook, don't you.
lol


Regards,
-30-

@Andrew - it is theoretically possible, and indeed, back in the golden era, there was an attempt to shave rabbits/beavers, rather than kill them. Any time you see a hat made of "vitafelt" that's one of them. As I understand it, it wasn't cost effective, and at any rate, the animals lived a rather crappy existence since being shaved meant they had to be confined indoors. -M

fenris said:

I do like their nudie ads, though... Hehehe.

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I found those ads appalling. Supporting the rights of one group while demeaning another makes no sense. It seems PETA was going for the celebrity shock value campaign which people tend to respond to today.

Feraud said:

I found those ads appalling. Supporting the rights of one group while demeaning another makes no sense. It seems PETA was going for the celebrity shock value campaign which people tend to respond to today.

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They have a great "marketing/advertising" consultant. It works on the old adage that "sex sells"... And what better way than use popular, sexy celebrities in the nude?

As I don't think I will ever not eat meat or buy a fur coat, the whole message of the ad is lost on me. All I see is a (sometimes) hottie being paid to model for their cause.

"I found those ads appalling. Supporting the rights of one group while demeaning another makes no sense."
QUOTE: Feraud.

The ads were produced by peta and as such peta likes and endorses them. Whether you and I are appaulled, they do not care a wit.

It's the "Whatever it takes, by however means." idea.


Regards,
-30-

Taking the entire matter a step or two farther, the British singer Morrissey (in a great publicity move, because prior to this, I had never heard of him) announced he would NOT appear on Jimmy Kimmel's show tonight, because the other guests were the folks from A&E's "Duck Dynasty." He called them serial animal killers, among other comments.

The Wicked Witch of the West was right... "What a world, what a world!!

fenris said:

PETA is also against carriage rides... What's next? What will they be against of that has to do with animals?

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I actually agree with them on this. I hate seeing those horses working in the middle of the summer in places like New Orleans and Charleston carting people around town in the middle of the day. One of the guys who worked in one of the restaurants that I patronized told me that one of the horses had just dropped dead of exhaustion. I don't use those carriage rides, I prefer to walk plus its healthier for my body.

It disturbed me to see the dogs and cats allegedly being thrown around and abused before slaughter. I cannot agree w/ pet animals being killed for the sole purpose of the fur trim business. We all know the US and other western countries also humanely put down animals. Having hunted and fished I have respectfully observed the nervous system and basic brain function of many animals is very strong. This explains their ability to survive horribly cold winters and vehicle collisions at highway speed. Many times when hit by a car they react as if unhurt, although we know they have sustained fatal injuries. The lack of respect and empathy for the animals in the video is very very saddening. However, many folks today are disconnected from the steps needed to slaughter an animal and process it humanely.

fenris said:

I've actually wondered the same thing.

Actually, all this time (before seeing the video) I thought that rabbits were shaved. Although I know they are killed, I just assumed they were just shaved and the meat processed for eating (or something like that). But I was just thinking in hat terms and not fur coats.

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You would have to shave to the skin (not even sure this would work) because in most cases only the inner most fur is used for felting. It's probably more cost effective to kill the farmed rabbits and sell the meat. I am not aware of beaver being farmed and I don't think they would be very agreeable to sheering. Same with wild hare and rabbit. Also the felting process is based on using pelts so the whole system would have to be changed(this is assuming sheering would work).

Well, I would not be so self assured that the US treats animals in a significantly better way. Slaughterhouses in particular have been known to be some pretty awful places. And if you eat veal....

Look, I am no fan of PETA; and I think Ingrid Newkirk is downright batty most of the time. But intimating that the video is somehow untruthul or a fabrication - absent any evidence of such - is a bridge too far.

CaramelSmoothie said:

I actually agree with them on this. I hate seeing those horses working in the middle of the summer in places like New Orleans and Charleston carting people around town in the middle of the day. One of the guys who worked in one of the restaurants that I patronized told me that one of the horses had just dropped dead of exhaustion. I don't use those carriage rides, I prefer to walk plus its healthier for my body.

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Agreed. As a native New Yorker I've observed this outdated practice exists only to cater to the tourist trade. We’ve had our share of horses dropping dead from exhaustion in the summer heat and collisions with autos. All one needs to do is observe these horses in the thick of NYC traffic and it’s plainly evident this is an outdated, dangerous, and unhealthy practice.
I proudly side with the welfare of the horses than tourists who want a carriage ride to foster their idealized image of a NYC that no longer exists.

jlee562 said:

or an Akubra made in Australia where non-native rabbits are a pest species.

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My undrstanding all along has been that the rabbits used for Akubras also have their carcasses sold on, mostly for the petfood industry. Morally, I'm just fine with an animal dying for my use providing we only kill what we need (ok, I don't really "need" another dozen hats but you know what I mean...), and don't waste anything. I don't care for animals being killed for skin alone, ideally, though I know it can be hard to be certain of these things.

feltfan said:

I would feel guilty about wearing a cheap hat from China even if they were nice to the animals.
There is no guilt in vintage.

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I don't follow, why is it being cheap (as opposed to of low quality) or Chinese a problem, absent any animal cruelty?

scooter said:

In China (and some other countries) they eat cats, which I happen to hold in high regard. I watch a secret video of them using a snare to pull a cat out of a cage, then plunging the poor creature into a vat of extremely hot water, still alive and swirling it around to help remove the skin and fur. Had I the means, I'd love to plunge a few of them into that water and swirl them around for a bit!

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Quite. I'm completely irrational about cats, as I consider them people (I prefer my cats to most humans I've met, but rankly that's not entirely irrational...). The Chinese are veering away from eating them, though, as it becomes increasingly fashionable to keep them as pets. One of the cross-influences of increasing interaction with Western culture since 1990 or so. (Of course there is also the influence of them being seen as "what poor people ate in the old days".)

Not to get into another conversation entirely, but how many times must we as a country get screwed by these "bargain" production countries, before we learn our lesson? Dead pets from tainted treats, lead painted children toys, etc., etc., etc.

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It's got nothing to do with countries, it's simply a case of if you want to buy the cheapest you will often be buying the lowest quality - wherever it comes from. Of course the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard at the top end, but equally there will always be for most any consumer durable a point below which you simply cannot make an item worth having, or without one or more of those serious defects.

fenris said:

I browsed through their site and they have issues even with wool. As far as I know, sheep are not killed for their fur, just shaved naked.

They have issues with every material taken from animals; fur, leather, wool, feathers, etc. I'd say it's overkill.

Still, what the video shows is really inhumane. Disgusting to say the least.

____________________________________________

Just to add... Most people who see and handle my hats over here have no idea what it's made of. They even think it's leather, kinda like nubuck or suede. Hehehe.

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Yes, furfelt hats don't seem to receive much negative comment from that end of things simply because most people aren't aware of it: one of the effects of hats being such a niche thing these days. PETA are on the extreme side - if memory serves they promote veganism as the only ethical option. I have no objection to their right to hold and express those views, although I suspect they may often prove counter-productive by excluding those of us who do wish to see animals respected and humanely treated even if we do wear / eat (some of) them.

Sprinkles said:

I think it is safe to say there are extremes and ridiculousness on both sides of every issue!

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Quite.

Feraud said:

Regardless of whether you eat meat or not, wear leather, felt hats, are politically conservative or liberal I cannot imagine anyone seeing the video and not feeling a sense of guilt and shame over supporting (generally through denial) such business practices.

I'm no hemp wearing vegan but I can at least admit the cruelty towards these creatures and many others is a problem. As disgusting and shocking as the video is, I'm more shocked by the lengths some people go to deny this is a problem.

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I'm sure it has lnog been the case, but certainly when faced with a choice to be made many people will choose to believe or disbelieve whatever makes them feel better about their own choices. It's a strange form of denial of personal responsibility in a way.

Feraud said:

I dont' think the issue is that we raise and use animals but how we're doing it. It shouldn't undermine anyone's world view to acknowledge some practices are more or less human than others.

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Precisely.

gtdean48 said:

Has a similar video been posted & thread locked down already?

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Undoubtedly!

jlee562 said:

Well, I would not be so self assured that the US treats animals in a significantly better way. Slaughterhouses in particular have been known to be some pretty awful places. And if you eat veal....

Look, I am no fan of PETA; and I think Ingrid Newkirk is downright batty most of the time. But intimating that the video is somehow untruthul or a fabrication - absent any evidence of such - is a bridge too far.

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Not to mention potentially libellous.

Hi

While the video takes on the Chinese "fur industry" I doubt that the cruelty towards animals is limited to that industry. I've never worked in the industry, but I've cleaned fish etc. When you kill 5-10 animals a year, you take the time to do it right. When you kill 100 animals an hour for 10 hours a day, I doubt your mind is really on it anymore. I think the word for those workers is probably jaded.

From my understanding of OUR cattle and pig industry, the animals are killed humanely with a bolt to the brain. They didn't live in a nice pasture to a ripe old age, but they didn't suffer like the animals in that video either. I wired hog and cattle confinements in High School.

Later

Feraud said:

Agreed. As a native New Yorker I've observed this outdated practice exists only to cater to the tourist trade. We’ve had our share of horses dropping dead from exhaustion in the summer heat and collisions with autos. All one needs to do is observe these horses in the thick of NYC traffic and it’s plainly evident this is an outdated, dangerous, and unhealthy practice.
I proudly side with the welfare of the horses than tourists who want a carriage ride to foster their idealized image of a NYC that no longer exists.

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I wish they would be outlawed, at least in the summer. History has shown us that any system that is built on oppression and suffering of others and is profitable for those who run it are the hardest to destroy.