Alexander Leathers Simmons and Aero Aeromarine Discussion

Dr H · Apr 17, 2013

It's just an observation, but a heated discussion about priority/timing over these two designs overlooks the fact that the Aeromarine is acknowledged to be an homage to an original 20s/30s jacket (already pictured) with some subtle mods, notably a lining.

This jacket (and others currently in the pipeline, including one from Bill Kelso that already has some very fine looking detailing in terms of buttons and period labels) have been prompted by the undoubted popularity/desirability of the Heron and Menlo Cossack with which they share many features in common.

The development of the BK jacket, for example, predates the most recent release of the Aeromarine, but falls within the reported gestation period of a decade or so (which presumably falls in turn within the design/release of the Heron by Himel Brothers).

Let's not get too concerned about the timing - it's a market after all. The Heron has stimulated a lot of interest, but is beyond the budget of many; the LVC is cheaper but still expensive if you buy direct from outlets. There is clearly sufficient interest to sustain similar design alternatives at a lower price point and they are sufficiently distinct to say that it's not a question of design plagiarism.

cordwangler · Apr 17, 2013

Some of the more fevered impartial observations suggest to me that we're already in a kind of leather jacket analogue of the Burger Wars.

Apologies to those not in the know about 2000AD comic (UK) and its "Cursed Earth" series of Judge Dredd stories. But it made me LOL.

Sloan1874 · Apr 17, 2013

Dr H said:
It's just an observation, but a heated discussion about priority/timing over these two designs overlooks the fact that the Aeromarine is acknowledged to be an homage to an original 20s/30s jacket (already pictured) with some subtle mods, notably a lining.

This jacket (and others currently in the pipeline, including one from Bill Kelso that already has some very fine looking detailing in terms of buttons and period labels) have been prompted by the undoubted popularity/desirability of the Heron and Menlo Cossack with which they share many features in common.

The development of the BK jacket, for example, predates the most recent release of the Aeromarine, but falls within the reported gestation period of a decade or so (which presumably falls in turn within the design/release of the Heron by Himel Brothers).

Let's not get too concerned about the timing - it's a market after all. The Heron has stimulated a lot of interest, but is beyond the budget of many; the LVC is cheaper but still expensive if you buy direct from outlets. There is clearly sufficient interest to sustain similar design alternatives at a lower price point and they are sufficiently distinct to say that it's not a question of design plagiarism.

I think the crux of the matter here, Dr H, really, is about the design itself. I'm sure the ELC will be a fine version of the Heron with the all-important collar nicely rendered. The AL just looks like a half-baked stab at it - which is a shame because fans of their jackets deserve better. There's nothing wrong with voicing that opinion because it is a valid observation. You pays your money and makes your choice.

Dr H · Apr 17, 2013

Sloan1874 said:
I think the crux of the matter here, Dr H, really, is about the design itself. I'm sure the ELC will be a fine version of the Heron with the all-important collar nicely rendered. The AL just looks like a half-baked stab at it - which is a shame because fans of their jackets deserve better. There's nothing wrong with voicing that opinion because it is a valid observation. You pays your money and makes your choice.

Equally, I have no problem with observations being voiced about the quality of the execution of the design - neither appear to have a Peter Pan collar IMO, although the treatment of the leading edge of the shawl collar has been treated differently. You'll see similar changes in the LVC Menlo Cossack jackets from 2005, 2008 and 2012 - all subtly different.

It just seemed that the discussion was getting preoccupied with 'who copied whom', neglecting that everybody (Himel included) has taken their inspiration from these Menlo jackets and their brethren.

Incidentally, I cited Bill Kelso who have a new named design in prototype as we speak (I don't know of any ELC jackets of this kind in the pipeline).

Indeed, you pays your money and makes your choice - LVC Menlo Cossack for me. :-D

ButteMT61 · Apr 17, 2013

Ah, arguing over who copied an old design first! I'd rather discuss who's is shipping and see some pics. I've read in another place that some maker thinks the Shinki horse is awful. Seem of the stuff I read requires a few beers to make sense...
Most of the jackets are copies one way or another of an old(er) design. The difference is in the details - hides, hardware, workmanship, style. Each can decide what's best for them. Lets see some pics!

Sloan1874 · Apr 17, 2013

Sorry, I meant Bill Kelso, typing from memory. The who copies whom thing is, as you say, is a dead end, though in AL's case, they seemed to have gone out of their way to imitate a considerable number of Aero's own designs, but let's not get into that. As Butte says, in the end it's the details, and in this case, specifically, the styling. Which in this case, is crap*.

*IMHO

eggleman · Apr 17, 2013

I like some of the AL designs , but Aero have kicked their ass on this one..

Charlie · Apr 17, 2013

majormajor said:
Here's a quick fit pic of my Aeromarine:

Having seen the original jacket up at Galashiels, it looks like AlexCo have got just about everything wrong. The bottom seam is the wrong shape. The buttons are wrong. And the collar is just a joke. Just shaving a bit off your regular collar does NOT turn it into a shawl collar.

Ken told me that Aero spent alot of time getting that collar just right. Here's what they came up with (Ken made this one):

Looking at the AlexCo "attempt", the phrase "mall jacket" comes to mind:eeek:

I do agree with that it's definitly not the same jacket due to the collar ! And it's a shawl collar that I want !

Edward · Apr 17, 2013

AL do seem to have dropped the ball on this one, IMO. I wouldn't say it was an ugly jacket per se (it's a lot better than their Trialmaster copy was with the addition of the big shirt collar), but if it's an attempt to recreate the same jacket as the Aquamarine, Menlo, etc, it has missed the mark by some way. Their collar isn't unpleasant to me - reminds me of a club-collar shirt - but it does give the appearance of either not being in a position to get it right (I'm sure that's not the case), or a deliberate design choice to create something very close to the competition but tweak it just that little bit to make it their own. The unfortunate thing with classic designs is that if you tweak the details for the sake of it, it often unbalances the design.

Capesofwrath said:
Hm. They were quick off the mark there.

Unsurprising. I don't think anyone could seriously argue that they are not directly targeting the Aero customer base, so when Aero leads in a new direction it's almost inevitable they'll want to head to that market too. For my tastes, they'd be better finding a niche of their own, but clearly they consider otherwise. I'm still surprised they haven't done a run of the Stuart, a design that the Caulders recognise as belonging to Will. Surely he'd have the patterns for that still?

cordwangler said:
Some of the more fevered impartial observations suggest to me that we're already in a kind of leather jacket analogue of the Burger Wars.

Apologies to those not in the know about 2000AD comic (UK) and its "Cursed Earth" series of Judge Dredd stories. But it made me LOL.

I've always wanted to read that... I was too young to see the Burger Wars story originally, and for the obvious legal reasons it will never be printed again. Must make those among the mos collectable issued of 2000AD ever...

cordwangler · Apr 17, 2013

Edward said:
Burger Wars story

Yes, still a great idea for a story and still current. You can generally find these issues at a relatively good price for something of their age/scarceity. Well worth the price of admission in my view.

I kept a few boxes of 2000AD until quite recently and then donated them to a charity shop. They're good at weeding out the value these days... more's the pity!

Nathan Flowers · Apr 17, 2013

Gentlemen, let's keep our criticism constructive. Regardless of the rancor on either side of the debate, there is more than enough room for every manufacturer out there. Their designs are what they are, but the Lounge offers an opportunity for us to provide constructive criticism that hopefully companies will use to improve, and ultimately deliver products we'll want.

There have been some questions about what the collar of Alexander's Simmons jacket looks like unbuttoned, so I asked them to send me a picture so we could see it.

I hope to get a picture of it being worn soon so we can better see what the actual look is like as a whole.

ButteMT61 · Apr 17, 2013

So, are makers now going to email Hosts if they don't like threads? I think this got reeled in, but it's bothersome that people can't discuss without intervention and help from the makers & Hosts. My 2¢ - I reckon this will get me my own personal TFL vacation...

Charlie · Apr 17, 2013

Now we can compare

Sloan1874 · Apr 17, 2013

I thought'd been pretty uncontroversial.

Nathan Flowers · Apr 17, 2013

ButteMT61 said:
So, are makers now going to email Hosts if they don't like threads? I think this got reeled in, but it's bothersome that people can't discuss without intervention and help from the makers & Hosts. My 2¢ - I reckon this will get me my own personal TFL vacation...

The only things that got reeled in were posts that were WAY off base, and not constructive at all. Additionally, we were crapping all over Charlie's original thread and getting off the original topic. Alexander hasn't emailed me about the posts, and I don't expect them to. If I were subject to the whims and requests of vendors, I'd be shutting it all down instead of funneling it to this new thread. The object is to keep the discussion on target, and provide fair criticism, regardless of the vendor. We do this irrespective of the vendor or industry, be it hats, jackets, shoes, suits, dresses, or makeup. Oh, with one minor exception --we won't allow talk of Gladhatter.

jlanderson · Apr 17, 2013

Sloan1874 said:
I thought'd been pretty uncontroversial.

+1

Sloan1874 · Apr 17, 2013

Apologies for helping to drag it screaming off-topic, though. Charlie's Dakota looked absolutely fine - quite a nice looking hide as well.

Nathan Flowers · Apr 17, 2013

Sloan1874 said:
Apologies for helping to drag it screaming off-topic, though. Charlie's Detroit looked absolutely fine - quite a nice looking hide as well.

No worries! We want the discussion and the criticism. It's what makes this place great. We just want to make sure it's directed.

ButteMT61 · Apr 17, 2013

Nathan Flowers said:
The only things that got reeled in were posts that were WAY off base, and not constructive at all. Additionally, we were crapping all over Charlie's original thread and getting off the original topic. Alexander hasn't emailed me about the posts, and I don't expect them to. If I were subject to the whims and requests of vendors, I'd be shutting it all down instead of funneling it to this new thread. The object is to keep the discussion on target, and provide fair criticism, regardless of the vendor. We do this irrespective of the vendor or industry, be it hats, jackets, shoes, suits, dresses, or makeup. Oh, with one minor exception --we won't allow talk of Gladhatter.

With utmost respect for the job that must be done here...Isn't the title of the thread " Alexander Leathers Simmons and Aero Aeromarine Discussion"?Most every thread on TFL goes off-kilter in time, most of the time we keep it civil. I just don't recall a host asking a maker for pics to post up. Given a few companies are releasing very similar jackets at the same timeframe, it seems that comparisons will and should be made here. I would understand if this thread didn't start as a comparo...I agree though it should be constructive!

Sloan1874 · Apr 17, 2013

I think the title of the thread has been changed at some point today.

Alexander Leathers Simmons and Aero Aeromarine Discussion

Call Me a Cab

One of the Regulars

I'll Lock Up

Call Me a Cab

I'll Lock Up

One of the Regulars

Familiar Face

One of the Regulars

Head Bartender

Familiar Face

I'll Lock Up

Head Bartender

One of the Regulars

I'll Lock Up

Head Bartender

I'll Lock Up

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