The poet Ivor Cutler used to get very irritated with people who assumed they could address him with his first name. I always use people's surnames or professional title in the first instance, especially in work, and allow them to correct me if they want me to use their first name. It's an easy courtesy and, either way, puts any conversation on good footing.
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Frustrated! Addressing people by their title, and other 'old-fashioned' sayings
- Thread starter Propeller Planes
- Start date
Now this is my biggest pet hate at the moment. Waiters and waitresses that refer to customers as 'Hi Guys, how can I help you" not worrying about gender, we are supposed to accept this as being cheery friendly greeting. Sorry America but this IS your doing, as is the emotionless "Have a nice day"
Were you to approach a group of patch club members of some motorcycle clubs and greet them with Hello Gals, can I get you all some beers?" What would the response be I wonder?
I want to grab these waiters, waitresses and their managers and in no uncertain terms say to them "I think you need glasses my friend, as this is my wife and as you can see she is not a guy"(said angrily and with added expletives)
Well thats my contribution to this thread.
Johnny(Not Stabler)
Were you to approach a group of patch club members of some motorcycle clubs and greet them with Hello Gals, can I get you all some beers?" What would the response be I wonder?
I want to grab these waiters, waitresses and their managers and in no uncertain terms say to them "I think you need glasses my friend, as this is my wife and as you can see she is not a guy"(said angrily and with added expletives)
Well thats my contribution to this thread.
Johnny(Not Stabler)
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Widebrim
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That is #1 for me, too, especially when used by waiters/waitresses (and you're likely right that it's a habit that came from the United States, fortified by TV shows like "Friends"). I tell my students not to use such a term when girls are involved, and definitely not to use it when addressing a teacher and his/her class (they get the habit from their parents). When "guy" is used in the singular, it always refers to a male, so why use it in the plural towards females? Years ago when someone used "guys" towards a mixed group, it was done in an attempt to be humorous, something like Wally saying "Come on, you guys," to Mr. and Mrs. Cleaver. While it's true that language changes, I still find the use of "guys" with females totally unacceptable.
Widebrim
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But Jesus spoke to his disciples against the use of titles, telling the apostles that they were all brothers and should simply be addressed by their names. In Scripture, Paul, who was an apostle, always simply signs his letter as Paul; the same with Peter. If a person is an elder or a deacon in the Body of Christ, he is still simply a brother, and should not be elevated with titles which help to puff up one's pride.
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We should all be called comrade as the political officers have instructed us, comrade.
Widebrim
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Yes!
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I always use "Ladies and gentlemen." Or if there is a group of people and I can't tell or assess their gender, I say "everyone." So, for instance, "How are you ladies and gentlemen doing tonight?" or "How is everyone doing tonight?"
I also find it offensive to be referred to as a "guy." In a mixed group, it's not too bad. But when it's all ladies, it's offensive. Especially when it's obviously all ladies.
Living in the Far East, titles are integral to conversation. One of the first questions a Vietnamese will ask you is "How old are you?" this is because pronouns have inherent age or sex built into them, "older brother, uncle, grandma, etc." Most of my students call me "teacher", even though I tell them they may use my first name - they all say, "goodbye teacher" as they leave the class.
This can be a bit challenging, because I sometimes use the wrong pronoun and get corrected - but on the other hand I do like the similarity it has to "old fashioned manners" of the west. If you use those traditional western manners here, no one will ever gainsay you for it - in fact they will probably not even notice it as unusual.
Like I say, if you like dressing up and using more formal "old fashioned" speaking and behavior conventions, Asia is the place to be. (just my opinion)
This can be a bit challenging, because I sometimes use the wrong pronoun and get corrected - but on the other hand I do like the similarity it has to "old fashioned manners" of the west. If you use those traditional western manners here, no one will ever gainsay you for it - in fact they will probably not even notice it as unusual.
Like I say, if you like dressing up and using more formal "old fashioned" speaking and behavior conventions, Asia is the place to be. (just my opinion)
Feraud
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I find it absolutely bizarre when a guy refers to a gal as "dude". What is up with that??
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Widebrim
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It's even worse when a student's mom refers to her daughter as such...
ortega76
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I have been trying to bring back such noir-ish terms as "twist", "skirt", "dame" or "frail". Most have no idea what I am talking about.
I could guess 'Chasing skirt' and "There is nothing like a Dame" referring to women(Unless it is a Pantomime Dame) but Twist has got me as has Frail, only ever heard that in Mini The Moocher.
J
Captain Lex
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As much as I am in to old-timey slang (generally from about 1890s England up to the present), I relish more playing games with the fluidity of language (which, indeed, is another aspect of using archaic slang), and thus I gladly address women as "dude", address groups of women as "guys", and will even say something as explicit as "Man, what you talkin' 'bout?" — but only to people in my own age group or younger, of course.
I am deliberately attempting to undermine gendered language, however; it has nothing to with my ignorance of or reluctance to acknowledge their real sex.
Let us not forget the etymology of our word "man" — it was once the Old English word that described our species. We had two genders, the werman (male) and the wifman (female). Apparently someone decided that the wermen were important enough to be called the species as a whole, with the women relegated to a special instance thereof. It seems to me entirely justified that gendered slang should undergo the exact reverse process as our society becomes less rigid along gendered lines.
I am deliberately attempting to undermine gendered language, however; it has nothing to with my ignorance of or reluctance to acknowledge their real sex.
Let us not forget the etymology of our word "man" — it was once the Old English word that described our species. We had two genders, the werman (male) and the wifman (female). Apparently someone decided that the wermen were important enough to be called the species as a whole, with the women relegated to a special instance thereof. It seems to me entirely justified that gendered slang should undergo the exact reverse process as our society becomes less rigid along gendered lines.
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HudsonHawk
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Just avoid referring to any of them as a "broad". That rarely ends well.
Widebrim
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Why?
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Slang terms spontaneously erupt into the language on a daily basis, most terms are destined to fade a way. We have regional terms and phrases that can cling for a long time such as using pop for soda. It seems the best way to get a slang term to go viral is to get it onto some TV show or commercial. You might make some sort of You-tube video to bring them to national
awareness.
Language does evolve and it takes a toll on everyone that is older to find that their slang is no longer in vogue. One of the things that I found amusing is when a Bible scholar told me that at the time the project of writing the English King James Bible a lot of the language used for the writing was considered old and out of date back then. But this old language was used because the jist of the verses was more clear and closer to the original Greek or Hebrew writing. So the old language held the connections to other passages and conveyed a truer sense of the ancient languages than was possible with the "modern" English of the times.
Captain Lex
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I apologize, I'm a compulsive editor because my old boards looked down upon double-posting. I'll here quote myself:
Myself said:
EDIT: Let us always cite our sources: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=woman&allowed_in_frame=0
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Widebrim
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Interesting. It is along the lines of languages like Spanish, in which hombres can be used for all male groups, or mixed male-female groups. In Bible studies, I have to almost constantly remind others that "brethren" and "brothers" usually refers to both genders...
Captain Lex
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Indeed so! Where it falls apart is not that we must call women by male appellations — that decision is a symptom of an earlier mistake. As a student of the Bible, you are no doubt aware of the Greek words Άνθρωπος and Άνδρος. The great error of the evolution of English was that we should have a single word for both concepts.
So now, as words like "Dude" and "Guys" become ubiquitous in our informal speech, we see many people absent-mindedly using the terms for anthropos instead of andros, and while they are technically wrong, it is perhaps desired that we regain in our language some terms to describe our species as a whole, as inclusively as possible. For my own small part, I do this emphatically, just to drive the point home.
That, and also calling a group of young women "ladies", at least in my demographic, can be seen as pretty demeaning, as it used by the scummiest of pick-up artists. The gendered alternatives are few, so I have jumped on the bandwagon with enthusiasm.
That said, I do agree with the OP regarding introductions: Miss Lavinia Swire, natch.
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