Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

Doctor Damage · Jun 1, 2013

arahat said:
Very interesting doc, I wonder if the repro versions like Buzz's peacoats actually have the same wool used in the vintage kersey peacoats even if the repro makers calls it a 36 oz. 'Melton' wool.

Naturally there are different grades of cloth and the melton that Fidelity or Sterlingwear use is not the same melton as what a Savile Row tailor will use. It's probably all melton. Although given that the USN used the terms kersey and melton at the same time (which Peacoat found in his study of tags) suggests that the words are not as distinct as the actual cloth was. Anyway, whether kersey and melton are the same, similar, or different, the older jackets were made from better cloth than the current jackets, a difference which is obvious in photos (to me) and even more so to the touch (to our members who have both).

Considering Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy's penchant for authenticity, it seems like a decent chance that it may be Kersey wool after all.

An example from BiG here:
http://blueingreensoho.com/site/ind...facturer_id=54&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

That's a great looking coat and it's interesting to see the higher button placement and the stitching around the cuffs, which Peacoat and others have documented. I guess those Rickson and Real McCoy people must do their homework!

Peacoat · Jun 1, 2013

As far as I can tell, the Navy has never interchanged the terms Melton and Kersey. Irrespective of the actual definition of the terms, the Navy has always called the vintage soft wool by the name Kersey, and the coarser wool used in the current issue (and in some pea coats issued in the 70s) by the name Melton. The peacoats issued in the 70s (perhaps only 1973?) that were made of the coarser material, were clearly labeled as Melton wool. The other coats made of the standard (at the time) soft wool were labeled Kersey.

I have never seen the type of wool shell called "Kersey" by the Navy used in any other application. My wife and I do have other jackets and coats made of wool, that are labeled "Melton," and they are the same or similar fabric as that used in the current issue pea coats that are labeled Melton by the Navy. At least one of these Melton coats is an English fox hunting coat from the UK.

So, the term Melton is a standard and well recognized type of wool shell used in many applications, whereas the type of wool called Kersey by the Navy, appears to have been used much less extensively.

arahat · Jun 2, 2013

It'll be interesting to hear from owners of repro peacoats by the high-end makers of Buzz and Real McCoy.

I wonder what the tangible differences are in the wool of the repro versions compared to peacoats of the equivalent vintage era ie. pre WWII to 1960s.

FAFOO68 · Jun 2, 2013

Hello,
By experience, the wool Kersey version is better than that in Melton.
I have a 1966 "Kersey" (the one with hand warmer pockets in black corduroy) and it's hotter, softer wool and less picks up dust, hairs etc... as an Sterlingwear Authentic (which stays in the closet).
I also compared with other garment in "Melton" wool and it is the same conclusion each time.
I therefore believe that there is a true specificity with these vintage models .
But it would be interesting to compare with reproductions of Buzz Ricksons or Real Mc Coys...
CHeers,
F68

Doctor Damage · Jun 2, 2013

Peacoat said:
As far as I can tell, the Navy has never interchanged the terms Melton and Kersey. Irrespective of the actual definition of the terms, the Navy has always called the vintage soft wool by the name Kersey, and the coarser wool used in the current issue (and in some pea coats issued in the 70s) by the name Melton. The peacoats issued in the 70s (perhaps only 1973?) that were made of the coarser material, were clearly labeled as Melton wool. The other coats made of the standard (at the time) soft wool were labeled Kersey.

I have never seen the type of wool shell called "Kersey" by the Navy used in any other application. My wife and I do have other jackets and coats made of wool, that are labeled "Melton," and they are the same or similar fabric as that used in the current issue pea coats that are labeled Melton by the Navy. At least one of these Melton coats is an English fox hunting coat from the UK.

So, the term Melton is a standard and well recognized type of wool shell used in many applications, whereas the type of wool called Kersey by the Navy, appears to have been used much less extensively.

I've never seen kersey referred to anywhere other than among the civil war re-enactment crowd and on the websites of a few cloth sellers, and I have even seen both kersey and melton categorized as wool broadcloth! I have never seen melton of the type used by Sterlingwear (for example) in civilian clothing, other than some lower end London Fog overcoats. Anyway, I recognize that "irrespective of the definitions" the reality is that the USN used the two terms distinctly and therefore it is necessary for us to do the same.

-------

Possible sources for used clothing?
NMCRS Thrift Shops

Here's a funny story about peacoats:

My "duty section" as an MM3 in Groton before transferring to Texas for NROTC was as a prisoner escort for the base brig. One of the requirements to check into the brig was a complete sea bag. I would often find myself escorting these guys to the base NEX (in cuffs) so they could purchase the missing items before they checked in. Then, a few weeks or months later, I would escort them to the front gate with their BCD paperwork in hand and directions to the bus station and a quarter to get on the pay phone and call a cab. No money? Well, I'll buy that pea-coat from you for $50. Good deal for them, usually enough for a bus ticket home. Then I would take the coat to the Army/Navy store in Mystic, sell it to them for $75 and they would turn around and sell it for $100. Same deal with bell-bottom dungarees, but I would have to drive up to Hartford or Storrs to unload those (hippie college students loved bell-bottoms).

Agent · Jun 3, 2013

Firstly, apologies for my first post being a request for information. I usually lurk and read up on any info I'm interested in, and hesitate to post when I have no knowledge to add to the conversation.

That being said, after searching around the forums reading about vintage peacoats, I'm still a little unsure about sizing. Peacoat suggests getting a size matching one's chest measurement, as this should give a p2p measurement of a couple of inches larger, so one should make their choice according to what will be worn underneath. Now, I've read the positive experience of JanSolo with ordering from the 'Vintage Trends', but this is where I've come into some confusion. Almost all the peacoats there have the listed size and the measured size as exactly the same, but this doesn't seem to ring true with Peacoat's advice. I'm 5'10" and my actual chest measurement is 42", so like Peacoat, I would imagine that I should be aiming for a 40 for a snug fit, or a 42 if I want to wear a sweater underneath. Since the measured chest sizes on this site are the same as listed, I fear this will result in a size that's too small.

Does anyone have any advice or experience they would be kind enough to share?

Thanks

arahat · Jun 3, 2013

Agent, sounds like you need to get the retailer/seller to measure the peacoat as per Peacoats instructions on the sticky thread.

That should clear up what size you really need. At the moment, it sounds like there may be an error/discrepancy in how measurements are taken.

Agent · Jun 3, 2013

arahat said:
Agent, sounds like you need to get the retailer/seller to measure the peacoat as per Peacoats instructions on the sticky thread.

That should clear up what size you really need. At the moment, it sounds like there may be an error/discrepancy in how measurements are taken.

Of course, it's the obvious answer that sometimes escapes me. Thanks for that!

Peacoat · Jun 3, 2013

Arahat is exactly on point. Unfortunately, VT doesn't like to take the p2p measurements, even if requested. The measurements they give on their site is based on the stated chest (tag) size and not on any measurements they have actually made. Most of the time the tag size is accurate, and will be consistent with the p2p size. But as lounge member Cooperson can tell you, on some coats the stated tag size can vary quite a bit. That's why I recommend getting an accurate p2p to corroborate the tag size. PC.

Doctor Damage · Jun 4, 2013

Peacoat said:
Arahat is exactly on point. Unfortunately, VT doesn't like to take the p2p measurements, even if requested. The measurements they give on their site is based on the stated chest (tag) size and not on any measurements they have actually made. Most of the time the tag size is accurate, and will be consistent with the p2p size. But as lounge member Cooperson can tell you, on some coats the stated tag size can vary quite a bit. That's why I recommend getting an accurate p2p to corroborate the tag size. PC.

And it's worth pointing out that as Peacoat implies a proper pit-to-pit measurement will always be different than the tag size, whether it's military peacoats, civilian peacoats, or any men's outerwear or suits. Too bad some of these e-Bay sellers won't do a simple measure. Perhaps they have so much stuff they are selling that they don't have time!

Doctor Damage · Jun 4, 2013

Doctor Damage said:
Peacoat: Do you know if the old WW2 style peacoats had a slightly larger sweep (circumference around the bottom) than the chest? I was looking at the size chart for Fidelity and their 10 button coats are 1" larger around the bottom than the chest, and looking at the photos you've posted of WW2 coats they certainly look like they might be slightly cone-shaped.

Can someone with a WW2 coat do this measurement? I know people have better things to do, but when I see photos of old coats they always seem to be a different shape than newer coats, and I'm just wondering.

Doctor Damage · Jun 4, 2013

This is always a fun website to look at for old peacoats. The photos are not very detailed, but the descriptions are interesting because they show a wide variety of companies and brands which made the coats at various periods... even Peacoat may not have have all of these tags!

peacoats on Vintage Trends

arahat · Jun 5, 2013

Some (what looks to be) interesting articles from Free and Easy as highlighted in the ACL.
Anybody reads Japanese?

http://www.acontinuouslean.com/2008/03/13/pea-coat/

Doctor Damage · Jun 5, 2013

arahat said:
Some (what looks to be) interesting articles from Free and Easy as highlighted in the ACL.
Anybody reads Japanese?

http://www.acontinuouslean.com/2008/03/13/pea-coat/

Great stuff - too bad we don't get those Japanese magazines around here, or something similar domestically.

I really like that "1940s officer's peacoat" in the one Japanese scan. I had read they used to put the black stripes on sleeves of watch coats and greatcoats to denote officer rank, so I'm not surprised to see it on this peacoat. But the styling is something which I don't think has been seen posted here or in the other forums.

arahat · Jun 5, 2013

Doctor Damage said:
I had read they used to put the black stripes on sleeves of watch coats and greatcoats to denote officer rank, so I'm not surprised to see it on this peacoat. But the styling is something which I don't think has been seen posted here or in the other forums.

I see that's where RRL got their inspiration from then:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RALPH-LAURE...SA_MC_Blazers_Sport_Coats&hash=item2ec7c22eb1

Pity about the patch pockets though. I suppose they were trying to tread between peacoat and sportscoat.

Doctor Damage · Jun 5, 2013

photos of USN sailors from various time periods, and from various sources (apologies to sites whom I haven't linked to, and stuff it to blogs which claim "copyright" on images they nabbed from somewhere else)

Doctor Damage · Jun 5, 2013

more USN photos, the first one illustrates the wide variety of bad weather clothing worn by all ranks

plus a couple of merchant marine sailors

arahat · Jun 6, 2013

Outstanding Doc. I see some N-1 deck jackets possibly.

The picture of the earliest iteration of the peacoat with the flap waist pockets worn by those 3 sailors is brilliant.

Peacoat · Jun 8, 2013

That is the earliest iteration I have been able to find. It was issued until sometime in the 30s or early 40s. Haven't been able to pin it down yet.

Spoonbelly · Jun 11, 2013

Doctor Damage said:
Having seen a lot written in this thread about kersey vs melton I looked up both in a detailed book I have on clothing. I don't have the book handy at the moment, but both cloths are apparently constructed in almost the same way and are very similar in appearance. If you look on websites that sell bolts of cloth the two are often lumped together. I think the difference comes in because what is called melton today by peacoat manufacturers (and the USN too, apparently) is actually a lot rougher and thicker than what melton is supposed to be - it's supposed to have a short, soft nap based on a twill weave just like kersey. Certainly the melton traditionally used in British Warm overcoats is a world apart from the rough, tough, almost crude blended cloth used in modern day peacoats, etc.

"I'm hoping to get a vintage one eventually, but unlike Peacoat for example I won't fall into the trap of buying a dozen!"

I fell into the trap of buying 9 vintage peacoats as my size 46 or 46Long are few and far between. I didn't think I would get such a pea coat bug, but I did. If you have a common size (36-40) I'd be surprised if you settle for one coat - the vintage Kerseys are habit forming.

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