The general decline in standards today

HoosierDaddy said:

Exactly.
Good post.

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I agree.

It's not the anti-legalization people who are the enemies of the people who find that cannabis-derived medication helps them. It's the potheads, the cultists, the addicts-in-denial, the 420-Blaze It! buffoons who insist on having their weed and toking it too, who hijack the medical-marijuana movement for their own purposes, who will prevent meaningful research from being done. The sooner people see "stoner culture" for what it is -- and emphatically repudiate it -- the better.

Touchofevil said:

With limited experiences comes limited responses. Some have only seen the wreck that marijuana creates and as a result their reactions might be that it can only be bad; that does not make them evil. Evil intentionally inflicts pain upon others; that is its purpose.

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I'd disagree. But I would clarify that I think their actions are evil, not themselves. I don't think people are fundamentally evil or can be evil, but their actions can be. (With a few notable historical figures reserved from this.) I think willingly not opening your mind to understand that component research is different from getting stoned and continuing to actively discourage research is wrong. I do think it's an evil action to support harm to someone because a person willingly fails to open their mind or continues to hold such an opinion after being given a multitude of evidence to the contrary.

There's plenty of people who feel that abortion is an evil act. Many of those people would see using aborted stem cells in research as furthering that evil act or promoting that evil act. If individuals can feel that abortion and the research regarding abortion is acting upon evil; why is a person not in their right mind to believe that it's an evil act to prevent life saving research? Both individuals (and an individual could hold both views- for instance- support cannabis research because it saves lives; but not support stem cell research because it ends lives in their opinion) are acting on their basic belief that life is precious.

sheeplady said:

I'd disagree. But I would clarify that I think their actions are evil, not themselves. I don't think people are fundamentally evil or can be evil, but their actions can be. (With a few notable historical figures reserved from this.) I think willingly not opening your mind to understand that component research is different from getting stoned and continuing to actively discourage research is wrong. I do think it's an evil action to support harm to someone because a person willingly fails to open their mind or continues to hold such an opinion after being given a multitude of evidence to the contrary.

There's plenty of people who feel that abortion is an evil act. Many of those people would see using aborted stem cells in research as furthering that evil act or promoting that evil act. If individuals can feel that abortion and the research regarding abortion is acting upon evil; why is a person not in their right mind to believe that it's an evil act to prevent life saving research? Both individuals (and an individual could hold both views- for instance- support cannabis research because it saves lives; but not support stem cell research because it ends lives in their opinion) are acting on their basic belief that life is precious.

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Actions or intentions? If their actions are based on ignorance or limited experience, I would not call their actions evil. If you were to see a preponderance of negativity were concerned with marijuana in your little bubble then how could I fault you for your beliefs? Unless you were someone with power to decide whether or not and were so close minded as to not listen to any argument for or against, I cannot call you evil.

V.C. Brunswick said:

[video=youtube;FONN-0uoTHI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI[/video]

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Way, way, way, way, way fast
And another example of the title of the thread......
[video=youtube_share;HID2VK4bsEg]http://youtu.be/HID2VK4bsEg[/video]

sheeplady said:

There's plenty of people who feel that abortion is an evil act. Many of those people would see using aborted stem cells in research as furthering that evil act or promoting that evil act. If individuals can feel that abortion and the research regarding abortion is acting upon evil; why is a person not in their right mind to believe that it's an evil act to prevent life saving research? Both individuals (and an individual could hold both views- for instance- support cannabis research because it saves lives; but not support stem cell research because it ends lives in their opinion) are acting on their basic belief that life is precious.

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Are you asking why a person who thinks it is allright to murder unborn babies in order to conduct stem cell research to save lives, is not considered to be in thier right mind?

Aristaeus said:

Are you asking why a person who thinks it is allright to murder unborn babies in order to conduct stem cell research to save lives, is not considered to be in thier right mind?

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That's what I was thinking...but didn't want to push that hot topic door very far open. I had a feeling there would be a stampede to undermine and escalate immediately if not sooner..

Aristaeus said:

Are you asking why a person who thinks it is allright to murder unborn babies in order to conduct stem cell research to save lives, is not considered to be in thier right mind?

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No, what I am saying is that it is a well accepted idea by many that abortion is an evil act, because these individuals believe life to begin at conception and life is sacred. I feel that preventing basic research on cannabis which could save lives is an evil act, because I hold life to be sacred.

If people can rightly feel that life is sacred, and therefore abortion is an evil act; why can I not feel that life is sacred, and therefore preventing basic research on cannabis is an evil act? Both viewpoints are based upon the judgement that life is sacred. Both hold the value of life as a central tenet. And since basic cannabis research tends to hurt no one* I do see those who stand in the way of such research to be participating in an evil act since they are not respecting life; and in particular, not respecting humanity's ability to use their mind and bodies to heal, respect, and hold life sacred.

*OK, I do admit that people do die in Phase I NIH trials, but that is why they are focused on Stage IV individuals and completely voluntary. And there is the cost of animal research lives as well. However, that is part of a greater purpose, and most scientists have a respect for the people and animals they work with, and try to limit these risks.

ETA: To make this absolutely clear- I never said anyone who was pro-life/ against stem cell research wasn't in their right mind. I do, however, find it irritating to be told that my support of cannabis research puts me in the company of dopers and not in my right mind. I come from my stance regarding cannabis research from a life affirming perspective, just like many who are against stem-cell research approach their stance from a life affirming perspective.

I'm not against stem cell research. I'm against fetal stem cell research using aborted babies.
I'm also not against cannibis research for medical purposes to eliminate the THC in it or for pain relief under a doctor's supervision. I am against getting high just to get high and be a drain on society and a menace while drinking your juice in the hood.

Touchofevil said:

Actions or intentions? If their actions are based on ignorance or limited experience, I would not call their actions evil. If you were to see a preponderance of negativity were concerned with marijuana in your little bubble then how could I fault you for your beliefs? Unless you were someone with power to decide whether or not and were so close minded as to not listen to any argument for or against, I cannot call you evil.

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This gets far away from a person fast; however. What about in cases where the vast majority of people know that something is wrong, but the person is ignorant and commits an egregious wrong?

I've heard a lot of people explain away some really nasty behaviors because of ignorance. "If a person has only had bad experiences with Black people, and they grew up in a racist family, how can they help being racist? It's not their fault they deny people opportunities or call people names; they're ignorant. They can't help it." "Well, that person was brainwashed by their government into committing genocide. If you had been there, you would have committed genocide too. They couldn't help it." (This I would note, was the explanation given for the holocaust by one of my high school teachers. I do not kid.)

Of course someone who is surrounded only by racists has a chance of being racist when they grow up. Of course someone who is in a brainwashing environment could be led to do wrong things. The issue is here is that not everyone who grows up in a racist family becomes a racist; not everyone who is in a brainwashing society commits genocide. The reason for this is because these people recognize these acts as evil and work against these forces. I fear a society where everyone looses so much of their moral compass that they can't determine for themselves right versus wrong. It's even worse to live in a society where people won't call out bad things as they see them and try to change other's opinions.

I am sure it is a special kind of hell to grow up surrounded only by racists, or to be being actively brainwashed by a government that wants to kill people, or to grow up or see lots of people abusing drugs and losing their lives over them. While I have sympathy for people who have to experience that, I don't think that excuses their behavior when they do something I judge to be wrong.

Do you also believe it is their right to do crack, LSD, or any other type of drug?

Matt Crunk said:

What consenting adults do to themselves or each other behind closed doors should be nobody's business but their own.

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Medicinal and recreational use are two different things. I am surprised that anybody thinks it's wrong in a medical form, which, like said earlier, is not what punks are buying on the streets, is wrong.

My personal issue against it, is all the idiot dopers who sit around contributing nothing to society, while mooching off of everybody.

sheeplady said:

There are people who do lump basic research using cannabis for medical purposes as being morally wrong. I have met these people. And I do think these people are evil to paint cannabis as such an evil substance that medical research should not be conducted on it. Drugs that have come from components of cannabis are godsends.

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vintageTink said:

I'm not against stem cell research. I'm against fetal stem cell research using aborted babies.
I'm also not against cannibis research for medical purposes to eliminate the THC in it or for pain relief under a doctor's supervision. I am against getting high just to get high and be a drain on society and a menace while drinking your juice in the hood.

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:eusa_clap

Then you have those now who have been rapidly brainwashed to jump on the PC bandwagon because practically everything has recently been sold as a 'right'. Pushed not only to be accepted..but more precisely normalized.
HD

AtomicEraTom said:

Medicinal and recreational use are two different things. I am surprised that anybody thinks it's wrong in a medical form, which, like said earlier, is not what punks are buying on the streets, is wrong.

My personal issue against it, is all the idiot dopers who sit around contributing nothing to society, while mooching off of everybody.

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There is mis-use of medical licenses. I've heard that in California they handed out scripts like candy at conventions when the bill was first passed. I'm a huge supporter of medical cannabis for any sort of medical issue it could help, but not in supporting people who want to get high all day everyday. However, cannabis has hundreds of strains and you're not going to be getting any benefit from just toking up anything you want. Besides, most people with chronic issues who need medical cannabis want to get back to everyday life, not escape it. You want to dull the pain so you can work; fight the nausea so you can make dinner for your family; etc. Getting high is going to remove you more from life. Seriously... these people want to function like everyone else. But, there is going to be corruption if it is made legal for medical purposes- just like people abuse pills. I'm willing to live with this.

I've had cannabis recommended to me by my doctor to help with side effects and for long term treatment. This absolutely shocked me, considering that it is illegal in my state and my doctor is very very old school and straight laced. He encouraged me to research it and make sure I was making an informed decision based primarily on my health and not on my preconceived notions. There simply isn't the funding for this basic research according to my doctor and what I've read, and I think a lot of that comes from society's notions about pot as a drug.

I researched it and realized that it would benefit me greatly and possibly be a game changer for me, based upon what my doctor said and I read. At this point all the "legal" sub-forms of the drug that would benefit me are 10 years out for a clinical trial and using it on my own with the guidance of my physician risks my parenthood. I don't have ten years to wait. Because there isn't a lot of research on dosage, my physician and I would be making an educated guess. All we know is that in the lab and in mice, certain compounds in cannabis kill my type of cancer better than state of the art chemo, and quadruples the survival rate of mice, particularly mice with high risk of recurrence. (This is not unlikely because there have been other miracle drugs for other types of breast cancer. Those are the drugs- Tamoxifen and Hecreptin- that have made breast cancer not an immediate death sentence.) I decided against using it because there is a risk that I could be declared an unfit parent because of illegal drug use.

I'd live everyday in fear that some judgmental idiot- a nurse at the doctor's office, a neighbor, a person who heard a rumor- would turn me in for using it, even though I'd have the support of my doctor and he feels it's probably my best shot at a cure following conventional treatment. I would do almost anything to live to see my daughter celebrate her third birthday, to get to live to see her read from a book the first time, to see her get on the school bus, to hear about the first boy she likes, to bake cookies with her, to let her cry on my shoulder because she's had her heart broken, to be able to teach her about the world, or to see her graduate high school. I'd do almost anything to protect her from ever grieving my death as a child, or wishing she had a mother growing up, or wishing I had lived long enough that she remembered the color of my eyes and the sound of my voice. But I'd choose a short time with my daughter any day over living longer without her. I fear that although I might benefit from cannabis, I'd lose her to the system for using it. Quite frankly being alive without her wouldn't be living.

For me that's been a very sad choice to have to make because a bunch of legislators in my state won't make medical use legal.

The problem with all the butt-in-skis, from extreme right-wingers, to conservative christians, to left-wing do-gooders, is that none of them are content to just live their life as they see fit. They all want to dictate how you live your life as well.

Well..I fall into two of the categories that you listed.
The way others live their lives today can and does greatly affect my life and my childrens lives. It's obvious..unless you'd rather ignore it. Ghetto rulers...street gangs...dopers...and many other extreme behaviors that aren't satisfied unless accepted as normal and allowed to run their scams. I would list other lifestyles..but it would open up another can of worms. When it comes at you from every direction..the street corner..the mall..the uglyness of society stares you right in the face. Anymore some would rather not offend them..but let the real offender dictate that society will put up with them and as they themselves see fit.
HD

I wonder if there's actually any clinical evidence or research on the effects of the "medicinal" use of weed; from what I've seen it all seems to be based on anecdotal evidence of people saying "oh it works for me", which is problematic to say the least for many reasons I need not mention. Not saying there definitely isn't, but I find it suspicious that hard clinical research so seldom ever seems to be mentioned in any discussions on the topic of medical use of mary jane.

I bet if you got blasted on booze every day of the week you'd probably have less pain too. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

On the subject of drug use as a whole and its effect on society and on individual's lives, I've had the dubious privelege of living in the city which has the biggest concentration of chronic drug addicts in all of north america, and to boot I've worked in a job that was right on the front line of it, in the hospital that primarily serves that community. I can say that if you really want to know what drugs do to people, watch "Through a Blue Lens" and the series "The Beat". It's about as raw and in your face as you can get, and I tell you from experience dealing with those people it's 100% authentic. Fair warning: not for the squeamish or the bleeding hearts.

Am I reading the same thread as everyone else?
Three pages ago Sheeplady revealed she is suffering a life threatening disease & not one of you have wished her well. Disgusting.

sheeplady said:

Actually, I am currently undergoing treatment for breast cancer. I've been given a 20% chance of living to see my daughter's 3rd birthday, she was three weeks old when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So don't be so quick to call me lucky. You're a survivor the minute you're diagnosed, even if it kills you.

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I just popped in here to look up an old member and this thread reminded me of why I haven't been on here for 2 years.

sheeplady said:

I fear a society where everyone looses so much of their moral compass that they can't determine for themselves right versus wrong. It's even worse to live in a society where people won't call out bad things as they see them and try to change other's opinions.

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This is really what it comes down to. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and the longer we pretend that line is some arbitrary thing that really doesn't matter, that all choices are equally valid, or that nobody should ever take a stand on any controversial topic because god forbid they might offend someone who disagrees with them, the more lost we are as a society. Every single worthwhile thing that has ever happened in the evolution of human civilization offended somebody.

I voted in favor of medical marijuana in Maine when it was on the ballot in 1999, but recent developments have led me to wonder if my vote was the right one. The program here is rife with abuses, and the people running the dispensaries seem to be a pretty sleazy lot: the largest such operator has been caught adulterating the product and engaging in various unfair labor practices with their staff, and diversion of the product into the recreational market seems to be very common. These don't seem to be particularly "scientific" or "medical" types of operations to me, and at the very least much, much stricter supervision of the dispensaries needs to be implemented.

As far as research into medical claims for cannabis goes, of course those should be researched. Forty years ago, apricot pits were supposed to be the ultimate cancer cure-all, and even without the Internet to spread the stories everybody was talking about "a conspiracy" preventing the use of the new wonder drug Laetrile. A lot of people died after putting their trust in the product -- actor Steve McQueen among them -- and when research was finally completed absolutely no scientific evidence was found to support the extravagant claims that had been made. Had that research been done earlier, perhaps those who died wouldn't have wasted their time chasing a fraud. Research into the claims for cannabinoids ought to be done, and trials undertaken in a controlled environment. Let science determine what benefits these substances have, one way or another, and either make them available as a proven-effective treatment or put an end once and for all to the hype and false hopes.

Either way, my hopes are with you.

lolly_loisides said:

Am I reading the same thread as everyone else?
Three pages ago Sheeplady revealed she is suffering a life threatening disease & not one of you have wished her well. Disgusting.

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I did see, and was sending her a PM. Thanks for assuming no one said anything to her.