Please Explain High End Selvedge Jeans to Me

Blimey, there has been quite a bit of to-ing and fro-ing over denim on FL recently! :eeek:

I'm sitting here in a pair 11-year-old LVC 1944 repros, which I've washed in cold water and a little 'travel wash' probably four or five times, and they don't smell, thanks very much. They cost me £80 back in 2002, which seemed like a fortune at the time, given that I'd spent most of my teen and twenties wearing cheap 'market' jeans or secondhand regular Levi's, Lee or Wranglers. It was a pal who got me my first pair of selvedge jeans, Lee 101s, and I could tell the difference immediately – they were just better...

Apart from having the crotch and worn thru cuff repaired (which cost £25), the pair I've got on simply keep getting better with age. They're pretty thick denim, and like *a lot* of selvedge material, were made in the old way – modern denim has a bulkier feel and is 'blown' together, so that all of the little pieces of thread which used to simply fly away during the spinning process are incorporated into the yarn. Ergo, most modern denim is cheaper to produce, softer, feels bulkier, and is less hard-wearing and not as prone to developing real patina / pleasing wear marks than *a lot* of selvedge denim.

I've owned 16-18 pairs of selvedge jeans over the past 15 years or so and I'd have to say that you will really cherish them. They wear brilliantly, you can get a wide range of fits (I've had everything from the pre-belt loops Levi's to relatively slim-fit 1966 501XXs) and denim weights to suit.

It's a bit of a minefield, getting the right pair these days, but as Butte suggested, there are plenty of very reasonably priced pairs on Ebay, and Uniqlo do a really nice straight-legged pair of Japanese selvedge jeans for $80 or so. My suggestion would be to wait for the New Year sales and then try a pair of medium rise, completely dry selvedge jeans from Levi's, Uniqlo or similar, then give it a go... sure, the colour transfer and starch can be a pain, but you can always do what I did with my wife's first pair, soak 'em in cold water with a little 'travel wash' and then they wear in very quickly and won't mark your fave white tee when you get caught in the rain.

Personally, it pains me to see folks in a really nice leather jacket, good boots, a great hat and then a pair of cheap, ill-fitting stonewashed jeans – it's like putting the Mona Lisa in a clip frame from Ikea!

Spend a bit more, wear 'em in yourself and you'll have a pair of long-lasting jeans that do justice to the rest of your wardrobe!

nabottle said:

1.What are some of your favorite brands?

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Ironheart are nice jeans. Lee make some great repros, particularly Lee Japan. I never owned any (too poor at the time) but I remember drooling over a bunch of Wrangler Blue Bell repros at Cinch back in the day (probably year 2000-2001 or so). Personally I'm a great fan of some of the Levis vintage cuts. Particularly the 1890 and 1901 501s even the 1922 201s. Anti-fit is the best way to describe them. Baggy, loose and requiring suspenders. Proper old work jeans. What I like about Levi's Vintage Clothing as a brand is that their denim is as near as dammit the same as the original 1930s Levi's denim that I own. And I mean really, really close to original. They've (or the Japanese Levi's folks have) really gone the whole hog in reproducing the genuine article.

Also, I'll give a shout out to Edwin as a good brand, though maybe a bit more entry level. Ignore the painted, carpenter style, OG rap star models that are the typical Edwin fare. Every so often, they come out with a straight up vintage reproduction (probably based on 1950s Levis 501s). Their model number is 505, and it's redline selvedge. Awesome jeans, I'm wearing some today.

nabottle said:

2.How often should I wash them?

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Not to be flippant, but as often as they need to be washed.

Baron Kurtz said:

Ironheart are nice jeans. Lee make some great repros, particularly Lee Japan. I never owned any (too poor at the time) but I remember drooling over a bunch of Wrangler Blue Bell repros at Cinch back in the day (probably year 2000-2001 or so). Personally I'm a great fan of some of the Levis vintage cuts. Particularly the 1890 and 1901 501s even the 1922 201s. Anti-fit is the best way to describe them. Baggy, loose and requiring suspenders. Proper old work jeans. What I like about Levi's Vintage Clothing as a brand is that their denim is as near as dammit the same as the original 1930s Levi's denim that I own. And I mean really, really close to original. They've (or the Japanese Levi's folks have) really gone the whole hog in reproducing the genuine article.

Also, I'll give a shout out to Edwin as a good brand, though maybe a bit more entry level. Ignore the painted, carpenter style, OG rap star models that are the typical Edwin fare. Every so often, they come out with a straight up vintage reproduction (probably based on 1950s Levis 501s). Their model number is 505, and it's redline selvedge. Awesome jeans, I'm wearing some today.



Not to be flippant, but as often as they need to be washed.

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I love my 201s but they may be too 'straight up and down' for many, do regret giving my 1890s and 1901s to an Aussie pal, this was years before I thought of actually wearing braces with 'em – they still had too much of a 'Gordon Gecko' association back then!

The Blue Bell reissues I've got are the non-selvedge versions and, meh, they're okay but I find Wrangler's denim to be too soft and stretchy for me – OneEyeMan, if you're getting 'into' denim, the same as with the cowhide / steerhide / horsehide / goatskin (etc) debate, you may like stiffer jeans or ones with more of a softer 'hand'. When talking about completely unwashed, dark selvedge denim, this depends on the weight, the cotton, the tightness of the thread, the weave (left or right-hand) and the amount of starch used... generally, on a sliding scale from softer denim that's more inclined to stretch, to a harder, tighter feel, it goes Wrangler-Lee-Levis...

I love Edwin Nashvilles, they're very close to the Levis 1944s in cut and weight, ie a slightly higher rise and a straight leg but not at all tight – you can find pairs for around £100 and they're worth every penny. Never had the 505s, are they akin to a Levis 1933 cut, Baron?

Thank you for the input, Baron. It's greatly appreciated.

Well one thing this thread has done for me is get a pair of the 1950s Freddie jeans. I was after some new jeans and these were just what I was after in terms of cut and colour.

I can go as far as 75 quid for a good pair of denim jeans but there's no way I'd drop $US300 on a pair even if I won the lottery. For me certain objects have a certain maximum value and I think this obviously varies from individual to individual. It's the same with how some people can spend over a $US100 on a t-shirt where for me that is just bloody stupid. Different strokes for different folks.

But the big thing that is worrying me is what to do about those happy, little selvedge-eating pixies that apparently live in the washing machine and are going to eat a third of the fabric weight off of my new Freddies when I wash them

nabottle said:

All I can ask is 1.What are some of your favorite brands? 2.How often should I wash them? and 3. What size should I buy compared to what I usually wear in lower-end denim?

.

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The thing you have to work out is your actual waist size. For me I'd wear a size 32 waist in jeans from the high street which typically translates to about 34" in actuality. With heavy denim - and I suggest you should go in hard and buy something that's at least 21oz - you want it to fit snugly from the outset as with regular wear you're gonna loosen it up a bit and gain at least an inch in the waist. So for me in the heavier stuff I can go 33/33.5. Websites like Iron heart's are good because they list all of the precise measurements for every part of the jeans. Another great place to buy from is cultism who are always happy to provide measurements and offer sizing advice.

Mine (advice) is to take your time on this to figure out your sizing requirements first and also the type of fit you're after. Then get something sanforized (in order to remove some of the guesswork re fit) before the summer is up and wear it hard over autumn and winter. The target should be to wash them for the first time after at least 6 months of hard wear, which means you're looking at Spring. Plenty of good brands to choose from so I say let fit be the main determinant.

Good luck!

OK so 'selvedge' means 'not cheap' ? The term seems to wander around in meaning beyond that!
I have been wearing 32x32 501's for 40 years, and the only thing I notice now is that the Bangladesh/Pakistan/China/Philippines Levi's are rubbish, and it's worth hunting up old USA or Australian made ones on the bay...

dr greg said:

I have been wearing 32x32 501's for 40 years, and the only thing I notice now is that the Bangladesh/Pakistan/China/Philippines Levi's are rubbish, and it's worth hunting up old USA or Australian made ones on the bay...

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I've been wearing (31 X 34) 517's for the last 35 years. The Levi, these days, are like cotton T-shirts. The pants Mum bought me, as a kid, would stand up by themselves for a month, or two.

(I have one pair of Duluth Trading 'Firehose' canvas pants that will probably stop a bullet (!) (I don't think they make the material weight mine are, anymore). They are still a brutally tough fabric, but very soft now, after several years of wearing and washing.

I would be interested in trying some of the "heavyweight" material jeans if they are more indestructible.

(My fashion tendencies lean toward hats and vests. Maybe a jacket... , or ten. My undisciplined hair is just a bonus.)

I recently have been trying different types of jeans as I was noticing most brands getting thinner. They were not lasting long. I haven't purchased any selvedge yet but want to point out that I really like Levi 501 shrink to fit. I like the thicker, stiffer feel.
I just soaked in the bathtub in hot water and let dry for a while and then put them on and wore till dry. I love them. I plan on not machine washing or drying in dryer to keep from softening too much. Wash in tub. I also don't want fading, I like the darker color.
Make sure to buy correct size. You buy bigger as they do shrink.
I know they are not selvedge but could be a first jean to enter into the selvedge area to see if you like them. Much cheaper. I am sure I will get a pair of selvedge eventually.

Mr Badger said:

Never had the 505s, are they akin to a Levis 1933 cut, Baron?

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The ones I have are close to that, yes. A bit higher rise and slightly slimmer in the leg. Also, belt required as no suspender buttons. I will say hat they seem to alter the cut of the 505s quite a bit from year to year. Sometimes great, other times, not so much.

I have several Edwin jeans, the one I like the most is a discontinued model called Waynesville. It's a baggy jean, which fades beautifully, as do all the Edwin Japanese selvedge denims in my experience. I bought it for around 100 euro's a few years back. Still going strong and getting better with every wear. By no means high end denim though (I don't have any... I don't know which jeans are considered 'high end', it's a subjective matter to me) There's lots of bargains to be had if you're looking for selvedge jeans from the usual suspects like Levi's Vintage Clothing and Lee. This week I bought my first Lee Japan 131 cowboy-jean, it's supposed to be a repro of an oldstyle cut, with brace buttons, bigger dungaree style backpockets. Straight legs, high rise which I like made of a nice Japanese sanforised denim.. mind you, the seams are flatfelled, so no self-edge visible. I dunno if it is selvedge denim, but I prefer this construction. I just makes stronger seams. For the 100 euro's I paid, i think it was a steal moreso because it has the looks of vintage jeans which I like so much, it is well made, the cloth feels great (it is not very heavy) and, as opposed to the LVC models, is more fitted at the bum. Beautiful, and I can wear them with braces. Aero Leather has these in stock for the regular price though. I bought a LVC 1915 ConeMills jean (without the belt loops) for 100 euros on ebay, new. Great jeans, made in the USA from cloth that's been weaved in the USA.. So, I'm really more into the look of the 30's jeans and you cannot find them on the highstreet and in the malls. But I'm always looking for a bargain because I also have a family to feed and I don't want to spend more than, say, 100 euros on a pair of jeans.

PS I highly recommend Freddies. The 40s cut is my favorite.. it's the heaviest jean I have.. the cloth gets more supple with each washing but also more dense, resulting in a stout pair of jeans. The hardware though is a bit wonky (buttons are not the best)..

I'm interested in some 20/30s style selvage jeans myself, I wonder if you djcat-go-cat or the Baron might have any recommendations? So far the ones I'm most tempted by are the Pike brothers 1937 roamer pant
http://www.cultizm.com/product_info.php?info=p667_Pike-Brothers-1937-Roamer-Pant.html

I have brought and owned nearly every kind of vintage style jean and today I am currently wearing Freddies of Pinewood 1940's style jean. They are made in Turkey like the LVC 501's but from a slubbier slightly heavier 13.5 oz denim, the cut is super full in the leg with a great drop, a high waist, suspender buttons. They are very affordable right now, I got them for £35, yes they said they had some issue with a crease inside the leg (???) mine were perfect. But I snapped them up. I might get another pair today. They are the perfect summer jean, loose with a great 40's look. They are super really no complaints. You will never look better bombing down to the shops for £35. Go for it. http://www.freddiesofpinewood.co.uk/product/122-sale-!-men's-1940's-jeans

simonc said:

I have brought and owned nearly every kind of vintage style jean and today I am currently wearing Freddies of Pinewood 1940's style jean. They are made in Turkey like the LVC 501's but from a slubbier slightly heavier 13.5 oz denim, the cut is super full in the leg with a great drop, a high waist, suspender buttons. They are very affordable right now, I got them for £35, yes they said they had some issue with a crease inside the leg (???) mine were perfect. But I snapped them up. I might get another pair today. They are the perfect summer jean, loose with a great 40's look. They are super really no complaints. You will never look better bombing down to the shops for £35. Go for it. http://www.freddiesofpinewood.co.uk/product/122-sale-!-men's-1940's-jeans

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For 35,- pounds you can't go wrong.

I have a Pike Bros Chopper Pants. One of my favourites at the moment.. after half year of wear and one cold soak it's quite soft now.. it's a lighter denim (guesstimation is 11oz) in a straight legged cut. Can be worn with braces if that's your thing.

And while you're pondering how to wash your precious jawns....watch this and hear what Kiya has to say...

[video=youtube;mvymUM8a-NU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvymUM8a-NU[/video]

Grayland said:

Why is that, Griff? Is it a chemical/sustainable issue?

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Well. I have drycleaned mocca jackets that didnt get one bit cleaner and it cost me alo of money.
I actually dont know how much drycleaning one pair of jeans would be but I can imagine it will not be cheap. FYI nothing is cheap in Norway - and there is really no explanation. Heating is so expensive so people rather freeze in the winter and we have alot of oil so it doesnt really make sense.

I have no other problem with drycleaning other then that its too expensive and I dont see the point (on normal garment)

dr greg said:

OK so 'selvedge' means 'not cheap' ? The term seems to wander around in meaning beyond that!

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No. It means Self-edge. The edge is hold together by itself because of how the fabric is produced.

This is what it means and this is why its red/green/some other color at the edge.

The theory is that you get the best part of the fabric, in the same direction and not cookie-cutted in all directions. How much each person thinks this is important will differ.

schitzo said:

you want it to fit snugly from the outset as with regular wear you're gonna loosen it up a bit and gain at least an inch in the waist.

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This is what "denim-heads" recommend on forums and that is probably where you have picked it up. This does not work for me because yes it stretches when worn, but it also shrinks when washed. After the first wash they will shrink the most, this is the period that you want your jeans to fit, to me it doent matter if they are loose before first wash since its a shorter timeperiod then eternity after first wash.

Forums will suggest trying on the most tight fitting pair you can squeeze into of a raw dry denim. To me its insane unless you plan to never wash the jeans.

I think the LVC 201s (try to get some American made ones) are some of the best I've seen, esp if you buy them a size up (need suspenders anyway).

schitzo said:

I'm interested in some 20/30s style selvage jeans myself, I wonder if you djcat-go-cat or the Baron might have any recommendations? So far the ones I'm most tempted by are the Pike brothers 1937 roamer pant
http://www.cultizm.com/product_info.php?info=p667_Pike-Brothers-1937-Roamer-Pant.html

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GriffDeLaGriff said:

This is what "denim-heads" recommend on forums and that is probably where you have picked it up. This does not work for me because yes it stretches when worn, but it also shrinks when washed. After the first wash they will shrink the most, this is the period that you want your jeans to fit, to me it doent matter if they are loose before first wash since its a shorter timeperiod then eternity after first wash.

Forums will suggest trying on the most tight fitting pair you can squeeze into of a raw dry denim. To me its insane unless you plan to never wash the jeans.

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No no Griff I'm not a 'denim head 'and fyi this is the only forum I frequent! Those are my thoughts based on my experiences of the few pairs I've had. The 23oz Lees always had a little bit of extra room in the waist from new, and over time that seemed to increase. They did feel a bit tighter when they came out the wash but then after a day or two's wear they felt the same as before. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. IMHO I think a glove like fit on the waist to begin with is for the best since with time and movement the denim there will give a bit and expand

Baron Kurtz said:

I think the LVC 201s (try to get some American made ones) are some of the best I've seen, esp if you buy them a size up (need suspenders anyway).

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Thanks, I'll take a look