Please Explain High End Selvedge Jeans to Me

GriffDeLaGriff said:

But other then the weight, it is dry selvedge? And how is the color?

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Yep they are dry selvage. The colour is less blue than the 23ozers are, more grey in it.

The most interesting thing about them is that on the small pocket inside the regular pocket under the tag is a round thing (feels like a round tin). But I can't get at it without removing the tag. And it's such a tiny little tag that's in the way.. I'm just wondering if I can still return them if that gets removed..

Probably they are worth £85 but had I known what they are I wouldn't have bought them either!

The round tin is a small repair kit well i say repair kit its holds a spare button a piece of cloth and two small rolls of thread. I thought lee were indestructible?
It says on the tin its for 12.5-13.75oz. Theirs no blue i can see in these jeans more silvery grey, bit to futuristic looking to my eyes but then again it is 0230
in the morning and am a wee bit tired and very p***ed off that i've been missold something i was very much looking forward to.

I now have to send back two pairs as this pair is the one i cancelled and supposedly hadn't left the warehouse and i have another in 34 on the way.
I really don't think much to asos service at all and i apologise for sharing the link in the first place.

I can appreciate your dissatisfaction Alistair, however without me having direct access to a pair I'm currently unable comment on the quality of the item. Please however rest assured that we take issues such as these extremely seriously, and I've contacted the relevant department for you to look in to this further. An investigation may take up to 48 hours, however please rest assured that as soon as we have further information we will be back in touch. If there's anything else I can help with in the meantime please be sure to let me know. ASOS Tom


Just received this reply from them off my facebook.

I might have been able to cancel mine on time. It says "cancelled" on the Asos site but I still havent got any response.

Alistar79: Dont feel bad about posting the link, I apreciated it alot. It is not your fault the item was misadvertised. Yes the picture was wrong, but this is often the case, its hard to get the right picture (I know since I do this myself sometimes at work) and its always the item-description that is the truth. The jeans also had a new-price of $500 and this is on par with a 23oz item so this is none on you and all on Asos. Please dont hesitate to post new links in the future

So instead I backed the indigo/indigo in slim and the Japan grey oxford

Mine just arrived. According to the Art number they are:
• Style: 101 Z - Regular fit
•Color: Dry Indigo
•13. 3/4oz Selvage denim
Yes, it has the little box in the pocket. These seem to sell for about £130. Also, they seem true_to-size as opposed to the oversized 23oz.
I note that somewhere along the line Asos has stopped cal;ling them 23oz and calls them, correctly, simply 101Z .
Will decide what to do now I know. At least it'll cost nothing to return>

Blimey, guys, sounds like you've had a right old time of it with ASOS! I kinda went off Lee stuff a while ago – had a coupla pairs of the very first 101Z selvedge repros (with the half-lined back pockets) from about 15 years back, one pair of which I've still got, and they were pretty classy. About eight years ago, I nabbed another pair, 101Bs, off Ebay for £30 and the denim's not too great, and they had rivets with '101' printed on 'em and half-selvedge, they seemed waaaay too big and lost colour heavily if you tried to remove a mark with a damp cloth... Lee seemed to have 'dumbed down' their vintage stuff for the US and Europe, I also have a chinstrap chambray shirt and a herringbone peacoat bought for cheap in the sales, and they're kinda 'meh'...

Was up in that there 'the London' for a night this week, and popped into the LVC shop, Cinch off Carnaby Street – they've got a sale on but you'll still need deep pockets (pun intended) as stuff like the 1920 201s are now £150 a pair (reduced from £215)... heck, even a bandana's £30 in the 'sale'! A lot of what's on offer is pretty ropey, really pre-worn, and bloody expensive for what it is!

schitzo said:

The thing you have to work out is your actual waist size. For me I'd wear a size 32 waist in jeans from the high street which typically translates to about 34" in actuality. With heavy denim - and I suggest you should go in hard and buy something that's at least 21oz - you want it to fit snugly from the outset as with regular wear you're gonna loosen it up a bit and gain at least an inch in the waist. So for me in the heavier stuff I can go 33/33.5. Websites like Iron heart's are good because they list all of the precise measurements for every part of the jeans. Another great place to buy from is cultism who are always happy to provide measurements and offer sizing advice.

Mine (advice) is to take your time on this to figure out your sizing requirements first and also the type of fit you're after. Then get something sanforized (in order to remove some of the guesswork re fit) before the summer is up and wear it hard over autumn and winter. The target should be to wash them for the first time after at least 6 months of hard wear, which means you're looking at Spring. Plenty of good brands to choose from so I say let fit be the main determinant.

Good luck!

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So Schitzo, based on the measurements of my favorite jeans right now, my waist is 34" exactly. If I order a pair of say, 21 oz. denim, should I get a size that is an actual 33" since they will stretch an inch? Or should I go with a pair that is an actual 34" and deal with the inch of stretch? I'm so close to buying a pair now that I can taste it.

Got a FB chat going with a chirpy Asos rep. get the feeling they are getting their ducks in a row before answering queries on these phantom, mis-advertised , 23 oz 101's. We'll see if they actually have any real 23 oz (I got the right Art No for them)
Yes, Cinch (LVC) have their sale. By luck, I was first in when it started and blagged sweat etc. and good stuff for better-half. RRL has 50% sale as well BTW.

nabottle said:

So Schitzo, based on the measurements of my favorite jeans right now, my waist is 34" exactly. If I order a pair of say, 21 oz. denim, should I get a size that is an actual 33" since they will stretch an inch? Or should I go with a pair that is an actual 34" and deal with the inch of stretch? I'm so close to buying a pair now that I can taste it.

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I have a few 21oz jeans and I would advise you go with the 34, why, cause they will shrink back each time you wash them and only stretch a half inch with wear, besides that you don't want tight 21oz, you won't be able to sit.

Mr Badger said:

Blimey, guys, sounds like you've had a right old time of it with ASOS! I kinda went off Lee stuff a while ago – had a coupla pairs of the very first 101Z selvedge repros (with the half-lined back pockets) from about 15 years back, one pair of which I've still got, and they were pretty classy. About eight years ago, I nabbed another pair, 101Bs, off Ebay for £30 and the denim's not too great, and they had rivets with '101' printed on 'em and half-selvedge, they seemed waaaay too big and lost colour heavily if you tried to remove a mark with a damp cloth... Lee seemed to have 'dumbed down' their vintage stuff for the US and Europe, I also have a chinstrap chambray shirt and a herringbone peacoat bought for cheap in the sales, and they're kinda 'meh'...

Was up in that there 'the London' for a night this week, and popped into the LVC shop, Cinch off Carnaby Street – they've got a sale on but you'll still need deep pockets (pun intended) as stuff like the 1920 201s are now £150 a pair (reduced from £215)... heck, even a bandana's £30 in the 'sale'! A lot of what's on offer is pretty ropey, really pre-worn, and bloody expensive for what it is!

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Hi Mr B.

I'm with you on the quality of some of the Lee stuff.

It seems to me that some of the US jeans Co's are getting a little bit "fast & loose" with their marketing.

Whilst the Jap made stuff is still A1, they are now shoving stuff out which looks very similar to the unwary. Lots of it is made in the US, or who knows where. Turkey? But it ain't so good.

Wrangler (who belong to the same holding Co as Lee) seem to be doing similar things. And let's not forget good old Levi Strauss & Co.

You can fool all of the people some of the time........

At the risk of 'telling tales out of school', not even Levi's folks are into a lot of the LVC products they're doing, especially the pre-worn stuff, and agree that the quality just isn't there – one item mentioned was the (Italian-made) LVC biker jacket they did last year, and the word 'cheap' got used (not by me!):

Mr B, did you take a gander at the gingham miner's blouse? I love the fabric, real high quality heavy woven cotton … but God(!) I just wish they would sell a version that was not distressed!

nabottle said:

So Schitzo, based on the measurements of my favorite jeans right now, my waist is 34" exactly. If I order a pair of say, 21 oz. denim, should I get a size that is an actual 33" since they will stretch an inch? Or should I go with a pair that is an actual 34" and deal with the inch of stretch? I'm so close to buying a pair now that I can taste it.

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But how do them jeans fit? Are they close to the waist or what? I think another good gauge is your belt i.e. what size is the hole you wear that on?

My belt is worn on size 34, ergo I'm happy enough with jeans in heavy denim that are 33.5" on the waist. Biggest I'd say that's still cool for me is 35" as at that width they still won't fall down.

Baron Kurtz said:

Mr B, did you take a gander at the gingham miner's blouse? I love the fabric, real high quality heavy woven cotton … but God(!) I just wish they would sell a version that was not distressed!

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Yeah, I saw that, but it's just too distressed, as you say – they can do a good job at that, a cheap pair of 1944 501xx that I bought from Cinch for £20 about eight years back are pretty well done, and they're the only pair of 'non dry' jeans I have (out of approx 15!)... my Type II jacket that I bought used was also somewhat 'pre worn' but is really nicely detailed, while my Type I jacket was totally dry and I had to boil shrink it a mite (it's a size 48 I bagged off the 'bay for £10!), which means it's a bit 'fluffy'... having said that, the Type I now exactly matches my Freddies of Pinewood 1940s jeans! Phil from Freddies said that the selvedge denim for their jeans comes from the same factory in Turkey as a lot of the LVC stuff, and with this lucky combo, I can easily believe it...

MY LVC jacket had a Cone mills tag on the jacket to show where is was made. I am sure they do that with the jeans also.

Quality denim is definitely one of those "you'll never go back" things.

Best Lee Repros I've seen (and I think I've seen most of the flavors made in Japan) are the Real McCoys Lees. Really nice feel, top notch denim.

https://www.realmccoys.co.jp/catalog/products/detail.php?product_id=1917

I got a pair of shrink-to-fit Levis dry selvedge on 50% off today as a summer pair Not the perfect cut, but high enough waist to be able to wear the 30´s halfbelt and Im gonna really shrink them to fit today, so hopefully they get a bit trimmer.

schitzo said:

But how do them jeans fit? Are they close to the waist or what? I think another good gauge is your belt i.e. what size is the hole you wear that on?

My belt is worn on size 34, ergo I'm happy enough with jeans in heavy denim that are 33.5" on the waist. Biggest I'd say that's still cool for me is 35" as at that width they still won't fall down.

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Thanks a lot Schitzo! You have answered my question perfectly!

I just came along this interesting thread

Some input from the Jeansmuseum of heaviest fadings:

1. Shrinkage:
- Raw denim will shrink about 6-10 percent (depending on how hot washed and how tight the fabric is wowen
- Sanforized denim should shrinks less then 3 percent (All Lee and Wrangler denims are sanforized not raw)
- Prewashed denim should shrink less then 1 percent

2. The durability of denim fabrics depends on:
- fabric weight
- cotton fibre staple length (best: Sudan / Zimbabwe cotton)
- kind of fabric (left hand twill is very durable also broken twill)
- how tight the fabric is woven
- how tight you wear them
- higher risks of crotch blowout and cracks if never washed/soaked over years
- and of course where you're wearing them! Even a 25 oz jeans can be worn out quickly when used every day the hard way as your work pants on a construction site

3. About washing / never washing
Many people are wondering, why some raw denim heads never wash/soak their raw denim stuff. It's not just because all of them love their dirty and stinky jeans. It's because they prefer the original indigo color. The original indigo color will change and turn into a royal blue after first washing. This happens to all raw denim stuff and is irreversible. So don't be shocked about people putting their jeans in the freezer. They love the original color and for sure the "patina" as well.

There are some tricks wearing them in a clean way over a long time: Wearing one size too big, start breaking in a new pair at the beginning of the cold season and wearing them in 3 steps: nice as office pants, then as outdoor pants for hiking and when falling apart as your workpants on construction sites or other jobs out in the dirt. That way I have never shocked my relatives or friends and I'm wearing my stuff the hardcore way since decades. And just because I'm hooked on the natural fadings I even take the higher risk of crotch blowouts and cracks.

4. Fadings
- Strongest fadings potential can be received if never washed for a long time to allow all creases to settle at their right places
- The fading results depends also how you wear them: tight= many small honeycombs, wider: larger combs, saddle fades if bicycling every day, cell phone fades and so on

5. "Rules" how to wear your raw denim jeans / raw denim jackets
There are no rules just think the following:
- Jeans and denim jackets are made to be used
- Use them at your best way no matter if you wash them or not. These are your jeans, so you decide what you wanna do with them

The Jeansmuseum of heaviest fadings encourage all raw denim heads to wear the hell out of their stuff as long as possible but never throwing them away. Your beloved but retired raw denim projects can receive an eternal life at this safe place. Let's share your raw denim experiences to other young raw denim newbees. With displaying many denim evolution samples to the visitors the raw denim spirit shall be kept alive for ever.

For more infos contact me on ruedi.karrer@jeansmuseum.org, or follow me on Instagram under swissjeansfreak


Zurich, Switzerland, since 1973, over 12'000 jeans and denim jackets from 1950 until now