Are FLers opimistic about the future?

Edward said:

Mn, get with the programme, eh? Yay capitalism, et cetera.

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"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a cheap Chinese sneaker stamping on a working-class face, forever."

Generally optimistic, yes. Pessimistic about climate change (saying that talking about climate change is a "political statement" is the actual politicized statement. Acknowledging the scientific consensus on it is an apolitical matter) and overpopulation as other astute posters have said. Also have my doubts that human institutions, generally speaking, will be able to keep pace with technological change. The explosion of technology and rapid evolution of it has, for example, turned our educational model, for example, on its head.

As I have said in other threads, changing mores do not mean the elimination of concepts of manners and discipline simply because the new mores do not match the old mores. I am far less concerned about this than many here. The nature of this shift, and the effects of it, have been greatly overstated, IMHO.

But the world will continue to turn for the foreseeable future.

Whether the future will be good or bad depends entirely upon what is important to you.

jlee562 said:

...The explosion of technology and rapid evolution of it has, for example, turned our educational model, for example, on its head...

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For 800 years the educational model has been for students to travel to a centralized location to learn from a master in the subject. This cost them not only time, but travel tuition, and board costs, not to mention the forfeited income they could have stayed home and earned. Thus education tended to self-selectively favor the rich.

Now the technology is here to eliminate all that by having the education go to the student instead, anywhere in the world, at a cost that hovers just above zero! I can't think of a more positive development in my lifetime!

The day WallyMart offer dirt-cheap online degrees is the day I'll know the back of The Establishment's monopoly has truly been broken.

Otis said:

For 800 years the educational model has been for students to travel to a centralized location to learn from a master in the subject. This cost them not only time, but travel tuition, and board costs, not to mention the forfeited income they could have stayed home and earned. Thus education tended to self-selectively favor the rich.

Now the technology is here to eliminate all that by having the education go to the student instead, anywhere in the world, at a cost that hovers just above zero! I can't think of a more positive development in my lifetime!

The day WallyMart offer dirt-cheap online degrees is the day I'll know the back of The Establishment's monopoly has truly been broken.

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What you're saying is true.

I should have been more clear in my initial post. So it's my fault for being vague.

What I meant was that the educational system we have now is still an educational system for an industrial economy...an economy that no longer exists. From a longitudinal perspective, changes in education accompanied changes in society. When the populus moved beyond agrarian lifestyles, primary education became the norm. Secondary education in this country really took hold starting in the 19th century on the tail end of the industrial revolution when having only a basic education wouldn't get you far enough. I would also argue that the ways in which we teach were largely formed in response to the industrial revolution. Discussions in other threads have noted, for example, that by in large, a high school education isn't sufficient to land what is considered a "decent" job in this day in age. That's because the educational system which makes a high school diploma compulsory is perfect for an economy where the labor may be skilled, but not intellectually demanding. I mean, I don't mean to disparage factory workers, but I think it's common sense that you don't need a bachelor's degree to work on an assembly line...that's precisely the point of the production line, while workers need to be trained for their specific task, the assembly line mode of production insures that replacements are easily available because it's not highly specialized work.

So now we have this great technological evolution, but we still have the same basic system. When I look at technological change, I see a movement towards specialization.

The rise of digital content, for example, has created all sorts of niche markets. You can find a podcast or a youtube show about almost anything. While these may not be profitable ventures by the metrics of national networks, a lot of folks are making money off these small ventures.

And I'm not saying that I know how to change the educational system to work in the 21st century, but I think it's starting to become more and more clear that something has to change to keep up.

Here you go Otis...
From Webpronews in 2010.

Walmart is partnering with American Public University, an online, for profit school, to offer its employees college degrees.

Walmart and Sam’s Club employees in the U.S. will be able to earn a college degree at a discounted price through a combination of academic credit earned for Walmart job learning and experience, and online course work via APU.

Dr-Wallace-E-Boston-APU.jpg "We share Walmart’s commitment to enhance America’s competitiveness by helping to increase the number of working Americans with college degrees," said Dr. Wallace E. Boston, Jr., APUS president and CEO.



"We are honored to be selected by a world-leading organization to promote to their associates the qualities and attributes that are central to our mission."

Walmart says it surveyed 32,000 of its employees and 72 percent said they preferred an online university over other options. The company says the range of 70 undergraduate degrees that APU offers in an online format makes it a convenient option for its workers.

Employees will be able to earn job-learning credit in current degree offerings in programs such as management, transportation and logistics, and security management. APU plans to offer new concentrations in related management and other related fields.

The first and most important change that can be made to education (in my opinion of course) is that we stop seeing it as a step towards something else.

Education is both its own means and its own end. Education educates. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's purpose is not to "equip" an individual for a particular career path, it is to impart knowledge, understanding and enlightenment to that person.

How they then use that is their own affair.

LizzieMaine said:

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a cheap Chinese sneaker stamping on a working-class face, forever."

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Miss/MrsMaine you've read 1984 and that's good but have you considered the effects of international trade on the various countries working classes?
In China multiple millions have moved off of subsistence farms and rice paddies to gleaming modern cities. This shift has taken place in one generation, raising the living conditions of workers tremendously (yes, I know of abuse and rough conditions, but we had that here too. You'll often find that in the beginning of industrialization when labor is cheap). The crux of it is, this shift has been so great that manufacture in China isn't the automatic savings it used to be. Labor costs are rising. Even in a country of over a billion, businesses can't find the cheap labor they've come to rely on for a competitive edge. Now some formerly marginal US manufacturers are finding it doesn't cost much more if anything to bring production back home!

As for US consumers, is there any doubt that our poor have benefited from cheap Chinese goods? A look at the customers of Wallys or Target tells the story. They get the products they want and can afford. This is repeated all over the world. The snooty middle/upper class types who look down their noses at these stores are really displaying contempt for the poor, IMO. I won't join them. I think what the world needs is more stuff, made even cheaper. Flood the worlds alleys and slums with low-cost goods so that even the poorest can have basic needs met. This is already happening, and I hope the trend accelerates.

Otis said:

As for US consumers, is there any doubt that our poor have benefited from cheap Chinese goods? A look at the customers of Wallys or Target tells the story. They get the products they want and can afford. This is repeated all over the world. The snooty middle/upper class types who look down their noses at these stores are really displaying contempt for the poor, IMO. I won't join them. I think what the world needs is more stuff, made even cheaper. Flood the worlds alleys and slums with low-cost goods so that even the poorest can have basic needs met. This is already happening, and I hope the trend accelerates.

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Out of curiosity, have you spent much time at a WalMart in a small town, where there is little or no other brick and mortar alternative? It's a remarkably different experience than ones in urban or suburban locations. They are not infested with the lowest common denominator that is often portrayed, but by regular, everyday folks who are simply purchasing their basic needs. They are immaculately clean, organized, staffed by intelligent workers, and generally pleasant. I will not enter a WalMart in Houston, it's a miserable experience. But there is one in a small town a few miles from the ranch, and the only place within an hours drive to purchase anything more than you'd find at a gas station convenience store. I buy everything from food to light bulbs to toothpaste there, and it's like night and day.

Thanks gents, good stuff, appreciate your comments. I really mean that!

Otis said:

Miss/MrsMaine you've read 1984 and that's good but have you considered the effects of international trade on the various countries working classes? In China multiple millions have moved off of subsistence farms and rice paddies to gleaming modern cities. This shift has taken place in one generation, raising the living conditions of workers tremendously (yes, I know of abuse and rough conditions, but we had that here too. You'll often find that in the beginning of industrialization when labor is cheap). The crux of it is, this shift has been so great that manufacture in China isn't the automatic savings it used to be. Labor costs are rising. Even in a country of over a billion, businesses can't find the cheap labor they've come to rely on for a competitive edge. Now some formerly marginal US manufacturers are finding it doesn't cost much more if anything to bring production back home! As for US consumers, is there any doubt that our poor have benefited from cheap Chinese goods? A look at the customers of Wallys or Target tells the story. They get the products they want and can afford. This is repeated all over the world. The snooty middle/upper class types who look down their noses at these stores are really displaying contempt for the poor, IMO. I won't join them. I think what the world needs is more stuff, made even cheaper. Flood the worlds alleys and slums with low-cost goods so that even the poorest can have basic needs met. This is already happening, and I hope the trend accelerates.

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Like smartphones and Beats headphones and Air Jordan shoes? I hear ya man.

HudsonHawk said:

Out of curiosity, have you spent much time at a WalMart in a small town, where there is little or no other brick and mortar alternative? It's a remarkably different experience than ones in urban or suburban locations. They are not infested with the lowest common denominator that is often portrayed, but by regular, everyday folks who are simply purchasing their basic needs. They are immaculately clean, organized, staffed by intelligent workers, and generally pleasant. I will not enter a WalMart in Houston, it's a miserable experience. But there is one in a small town a few miles from the ranch, and the only place within an hours drive to purchase anything more than you'd find at a gas station convenience store. I buy everything from food to light bulbs to toothpaste there, and it's like night and day.

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I'll agree with this. My inlaws live in a small TX town, and their Walmart is like that.
Last trip down, I heard a cashier say "I can't check you out grandpa, you'll have to go to another register." I thought "how cruel is that, to tell this old man to go to another line, when she wasn't busy at all!" Then I found out, that was really her grandpa and since he was a relative, she actually couldn't ring up his merchandise.
As for the Walmarts in my town, I get there at 7am to AVOID the typical shopper. I'm out 30 minutes before they get to the store.

Edward said:

I can see this ending well.

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:arated:

My response to this thread is as follows:

There were some televised interviews after 9/11, and one in which an old timer sitting at a chess table in Central Park made an interesting comment. He was asked about what he thought of 9/11. This was shortly, just weeks, after the attack. His reply: when I came home from WWII the world was at peace. The Nazis were finished, the Japs were finished, and the world was at peace. I don't know what happended since then but its your problem now.

Foxer, I started this thread in part because all over the board there's a lot of bashing of present cultural circumstances. A lot of these criticisms are trivial in nature. It also seems there's a reciprocal tendency to overly revere the past.

My concern is that there's a lack of long term vision going on. When a society starts looking backward instead of forward, you have a sick society. Such a society cannot be sustained long term. Younger, more confident societies will eventually overtake the backward-looking society in achievement and influence.

Anyway, that's it really - I'm genuinely curious about where folks here are coming from, and how they view the present and the past.
Personally, I like the past we celebrate, but wouldn't want to go back. Today is far more interesting!

Otis said:

When a society starts looking backward instead of forward, you have a sick society. Such a society cannot be sustained long term. Younger, more confident societies will eventually overtake the backward-looking society in achievement and influence.

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Wow..quite a statement...and seems that you believe that. So you are looking for agreement. Wonder how old you are living on the left coast.....

Someone walked into the wrong lounge..

Precisely what I was thinking Feraud.

Otis said:

Foxer, I started this thread in part because all over the board there's a lot of bashing of present cultural circumstances. A lot of these criticisms are trivial in nature. It also seems there's a reciprocal tendency to overly revere the past.

My concern is that there's a lack of long term vision going on. When a society starts looking backward instead of forward, you have a sick society. Such a society cannot be sustained long term. Younger, more confident societies will eventually overtake the backward-looking society in achievement and influence.

Anyway, that's it really - I'm genuinely curious about where folks here are coming from, and how they view the present and the past.
Personally, I like the past we celebrate, but wouldn't want to go back. Today is far more interesting!

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Well a board that celebrates all things retro is likely to have more than a few folks on board who idealise the past!

I made a few general statements earlier in the thread, general because it's just about impossible to debate the topic in any detail or with any specificity without straying into forbidden territory.

Suffice it to say that whether a society looks forward or back, whether it is confident or cautious, it will eventually be eclipsed by other societies. Whether that makes for a good future or a bad future depends entirely upon your perspective.

If common courtesy's like "thank you" , "please" and "holding a door for a stranger" are not a part of your future than..... Yes this means the world is changing. Mankind is changing and not for the better.
When was the last time not from a sales clerk you heard the previous words????????????????
Beyond my family and your's,
societal not optimistic.